Drug driving new laws

GM228 · 10-05-2017 10:39pm

Miike wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2016/act/21/section/8/enacted/en/html#sec8

Bottom of the page.

I think the poster is looking for cut offs for the Dräger, not the statutory limits.

Yachtcarpenter wrote: »

Having been breathalised this evening for alcohol, and has been approx 26 hours since I last smoked, I'm keen to get an answer to what the actual cut offs are for cannabis. Was not a pleasant experience considering nowhere actually states what the cut off is for the test machine.

Gm228 stated on good info it's 5ng/ml, draeger itself states its 5ng/ml, some reports say 1ng/ml and according to drugs.ie they say according to rsa its 10ng/ml

Can anyone shed light on this as to where this limit is stated, I'm close at this stage to go in to a Garda station and ask as in my view, if a limit is set in law, why is it so hard to find out what the testing kit is testing for (1 to 10ng) is a very large difference.

Dräger currently only test at 5ng/ml for THC as confirmed by Dräger in their brochure:-

https://www.draeger.com/Products/Content/drae-00392_drugtest_trifold_final.pdf

The RSA also confirmed the 5nl/ml limit in their 2012 report on Roadside Drug Testing Equipment.

https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Campaigns/Anti%2520Drug%2520Driving/MBRS_Roadside_Drug_Testing_Report_2012.pdf

To get an accurate 5nl/mg test it takes about 8.5 minutes, if the test is shortened to 4 minutes it tests at 10ng/ml - Gardaí are trained to test at 5ng/ml.

Fred Swanson · 10-05-2017 10:42pm

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Miike · 10-05-2017 10:43pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

One.

GM228 · 10-05-2017 10:44pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

How many tests can the machine process at once?

One at a time.

Yachtcarpenter · 10-05-2017 11:32pm

does the 5ng saliva rate correspond to a 5ng blood level?

BaronVon · 13-05-2017 10:55am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Takes about 8 minutes to process in full.

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 11:20am

Can't find an answer to this online so will ask here. I've read that for heavy cannabis users (I would be in this category) THC can be present in saliva for up to 3 days after its last smoked.

In theory, I could smoke a joint tonight, get 8-9 hours sleep and fail the saliva test tomorrow afternoon (which seems to be an arrest on the spot). How is this in any way logical or fair? I could also smoke nothing today or tomorrow and still fail it. Is perceived impairment the key in this case or will they use a bit of common sense? If presence only results in an arrest then this law needs to be torn up and re-examined as soon as possible.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 12:00pm

The Specialist wrote: »

Can't find an answer to this online so will ask here. I've read that for heavy cannabis users (I would be in this category) THC can be present in saliva for up to 3 days after its last smoked.

In theory, I could smoke a joint tonight, get 8-9 hours sleep and fail the saliva test tomorrow afternoon (which seems to be an arrest on the spot). How is this in any way logical or fair? I could also smoke nothing today or tomorrow and still fail it. Is perceived impairment the key in this case or will they use a bit of common sense? If presence only results in an arrest then this law needs to be torn up and re-examined as soon as possible.

If you fail the roadside saliva then your taken for a blood test, your not in trouble unless you fail the blood test. I don't think a blaze in the evening is going to cause you to fail the blood test, now if your wakeing and baking you probably will.

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:02pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If you fail the roadside saliva then your taken for a blood test, your not in trouble unless you fail the blood test. I don't think a blaze in the evening is going to cause you to fail the blood test, now if your wakeing and baking you probably will.

With heavy use,failing the blood test is inevitable. Therefore a person with absolutely no impairment who hasn't smoked in 24 hours can fail both saliva and blood testing. Completely illogical.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 12:05pm

The Specialist wrote: »

With heavy use,failing the blood test is inevitable. Therefore a person with absolutely no impairment who hasn't smoked in 24 hours can fail both saliva and blood testing. Completely illogical.

Yea that's the law. You don't have to be impaired that's not the crime even though it should be. The crime is having it in your blood.

Fred Swanson · 13-05-2017 12:06pm

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The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:14pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yea that's the law. You don't have to be impaired that's not the crime even though it should be. The crime is having it in your blood.

If that is the case then it is simply unacceptable and cannot be allowed as law. This moves it away from being anything to do with road safety and in to the realm of demonising anybody who uses cannabis. I hope the first person they try and prosecute in such circumstances goes all the way to Europe with it. This country fully deserves a hard kick in the bollix for even contemplating allowing this to be introduced.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 12:16pm

The Specialist wrote: »

Can't find an answer to this online so will ask here. I've read that for heavy cannabis users (I would be in this category) THC can be present in saliva for up to 3 days after its last smoked.

What do you class as heavy use? Actually what is heavy use?

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:18pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What do you class as heavy use? Actually what is heavy use?

Personally, 5-6 joints per evening/night which will show presence for up to 30 days. I never ever drive while under influence of it.

Fred Swanson · 13-05-2017 12:22pm

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Little CuChulainn · 13-05-2017 12:23pm

The Specialist wrote: »

Personally, 5-6 joints per evening/night which will show presence for up to 30 days. I never ever drive while under influence of it.

How long would you wait after 5 or 6 joints before you drive? How do you determines whether you are impaired or not?

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:25pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

They are demonising the use of an illegal drug. Perfectly acceptable in their eyes.

Unacceptable in terms of how they are doing it, I would comfortably say drink driving is of much more danger and importance to road safety than someone with cannabis from 12-14 hours ago in their system.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 12:28pm

The Specialist wrote: »

Personally, 5-6 joints per evening/night which will show presence for up to 30 days. I never ever drive while under influence of it.

5/6 joints is a lot probably no harm re-evaluate the situation, prescription of champix from the doctor and buy yourself a decent vaperioser from the likes of storz and bickel. Save your pocket and lungs a lot of damage.

Fred Swanson · 13-05-2017 12:28pm

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The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:29pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

How long would you wait after 5 or 6 joints before you drive? How do you determines whether you are impaired or not?

To answer that you need to understand the effect cannabis has, its effect in most cases is gone after 90 mins. Even after 5-6 joints and 9 hours of sleep, there is absolutely no effect left. A person with a hangover is going to be limited in theit attention on the road, a person who smoked a few joints and had a good sleep is going to be of the same standard as any driver that has not consumed either.

Little CuChulainn · 13-05-2017 12:31pm

The Specialist wrote: »

To answer that you need to understand the effect cannabis has, its effect in most cases is gone after 90 mins. Even after 5-6 joints and 9 hours of sleep, there is absolutely no effect left. A person with a hangover is going to be limited in theit attention on the road, a person who smoked a few joints and had a good sleep is going to be of the same standard as any driver that has not consumed either.

I just find it interesting that you are using the same arguments I heard from the older generation when they reduced the alcohol limits. I'm curious as to how you know when you are not impaired.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 12:34pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I pretty sure having cannabis in your system isn't a crime. Our body's are loaded with DMT, if drugs are illegal well then so should being born.
Drugs should be legal as a basic human right, cannabis has a range of uses, cocaine, lsd, ecstacy should be all legal so they can be used to treat and cure mental health issues, ecstacy is getting very close to being legal in the US.

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:35pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I just find it interesting that you are using the same arguments I heard from the older generation when they reduced the alcohol limits. I'm curious as to how you know when you are not impaired.

It is not the same as alcohol and it's disingenous to even try and put it in the same bucket. There is no impairment at all after sleeping, it just does not happen. Now if you are driving after smoking a joint I would say there is impairment but 9-10 hours later following a full nights sleep? Not a bit.

Pkiernan · 13-05-2017 12:35pm

The Specialist wrote: »

Personally, 5-6 joints per evening/night which will show presence for up to 30 days. I never ever drive while under influence of it.

That is heavy drug use, and if not curtailed will lead to serious mental health issues for you.
You may wish to consider getting help for your addiction.
Is there an NA near you?

Little CuChulainn · 13-05-2017 12:36pm

The Specialist wrote: »

It is not the same as alcohol and it's disingenous to even try and put it in the same bucket. There is no impairment at all after sleeping, it just does not happen. Now if you are driving after smoking a joint I would say there is impairment but 9-10 hours later following a full nights sleep? Not a bit.

But are you basing that on any kind of evidence or on your own experience?

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:39pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

But are you basing that on any kind of evidence or on your own experience?

I'm sure there are studies online. I know plenty of people who smoke it and their answer would be exactly the same.

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:42pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

That is heavy drug use, and if not curtailed will lead to serious mental health issues for you.
You may wish to consider getting help for your addiction.
Is there an NA near you?

I'm an adult that has no time for patronising attitudes about what I do in my downtime. Thanks for your concern though.

GM228 · 13-05-2017 12:48pm

The Specialist wrote: »

I hope the first person they try and prosecute in such circumstances goes all the way to Europe with it.

Under what grounds could soneone bring it to Europe do you think?

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:48pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

But are you basing that on any kind of evidence or on your own experience?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722956/

Detrimental effects of cannabis use vary in a dose-related fashion, and are more pronounced with highly automatic driving functions than with more complex tasks that require conscious control, whereas with alcohol produces an opposite pattern of impairment. Because of both this and an increased awareness that they are impaired, marijuana smokers tend to compensate effectively while driving by utilizing a variety of behavioral strategies.

Combining marijuana with alcohol eliminates the ability to use such strategies effectively, however, and results in impairment even at doses which would be insignificant were they of either drug alone. Epidemiological studies have been inconclusive regarding whether cannabis use causes an increased risk of accidents; in contrast, unanimity exists that alcohol use increases crash risk. Furthermore, the risk from driving under the influence of both alcohol and cannabis is greater than the risk of driving under the influence of either alone.

Future research should focus on resolving contradictions posed by previous studies, and patients who smoke cannabis should be counseled to wait several hours before driving, and avoid combining the two drugs.

Pkiernan · 13-05-2017 12:49pm

The Specialist wrote: »

I'm an adult that has no time for patronising attitudes about what I do in my downtime. Thanks for your concern though.

You're adult who gets wasted every night and then drives the next morning putting everyone around you at risk.
The fact that you think that going to sleep resets your brain shows how misinformed you are about smoking dope.
If you're not just joking here then you really do have a problem and you should get help.
Hopefully the cops will catch you and put you off the road.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 12:49pm

The Specialist wrote: »

I'm an adult that has no time for patronising attitudes about what I do in my downtime. Thanks for your concern though.

6 joint is OTT, it's either hash or bush weed, but 6 good herb joints would knock most horses so I'd be a little concerned as no tokers I know smoke that much, if you had to buy the weed that a €2000 a month habit.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 12:50pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

You're adult who gets wasted every night and then drives the next morning putting everyone around you at risk.
The fact that you think that going to sleep resets your brain shows how misinformed you are about smoking dope.
If you're not just joking here then you really do have a problem and you should get help.
Hopefully the cops will catch you and put you off the road.

I don't think he's doing anything wrong driving in the morning. That's all assumptions you made with no proven facts.

Pkiernan · 13-05-2017 12:50pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

6 joint is OTT, it's either hash or bush weed, but 6 good herb joints would knock most horses so I'd be a little concerned as no tokers I know smoke that much, if you had to buy the weed that a €2000 a month habit.

6 joints a night is addiction.

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 12:51pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

You're adult who gets wasted every night and then drives the next morning putting everyone around you at risk.
The fact that you think that going to sleep resets your brain shows how misinformed you are about smoking dope.
If you're not just joking here then you really do have a problem and you should get help.
Hopefully the cops will catch you and put you off the road.

The only person misinformed here is you with the bull**** nonsense you think you know about weed. Jog on.

GM228 · 13-05-2017 12:51pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I pretty sure having cannabis in your system isn't a crime.

Having a certain amount in your system whilst driving is a crime though.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 12:51pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

6 joints a night is addiction.

Yea to tobacco. He's not a danger in the morning.

drunkmonkey · 13-05-2017 12:52pm

GM228 wrote: »

Having a certain amount in your system whilst driving is a crime though.

Yea but it's legal to have DMT in your system.

GM228 · 13-05-2017 12:58pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yea but it's legal to have DMT in your system.

It's perfectly legal to have ANY drug in your system, the issue however is drugs in your system whilst driving or being impaired.

DMT is probably the most powerful hallucinogenic drug there is, if you drive with it (or ANY other drug) in your system and your driving is impaired (probably likely on DMT) that is an offence which is even more severe than the specific drug levels offences.

Little CuChulainn · 13-05-2017 1:07pm

The Specialist wrote: »

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722956/

Is that not confirmation bias though? You had a theory and went looking for something, anything, that proved you right. You didn't even come with a study, just an advisory warning.

Really Interested · 13-05-2017 1:14pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yea that's the law. You don't have to be impaired that's not the crime even though it should be. The crime is having it in your blood.

Impaired driving is also a crime.

The Specialist · 13-05-2017 1:16pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Is that not confirmation bias though? You had a theory and went looking for something, anything, that proved you right. You didn't even come with a study, just an advisory warning.

Well its pretty consistent regardless of what you look at, like this one:

http://norml.org/library/item/marijuana-and-driving-a-review-of-the-scientific-evidence

The results to date of crash culpability studies have failed to demonstrate that drivers with cannabinoids in the blood are significantly more likely than drug-free drivers to be culpable in road crashes. … [In] cases in which THC was the only drug present were analyzed, the culpability ratio was found to be not significantly different from the no-drug group.”

Really Interested · 13-05-2017 1:17pm

The Specialist wrote: »

Personally, 5-6 joints per evening/night which will show presence for up to 30 days. I never ever drive while under influence of it.

Presence is not the same as exceed a limit. I can drink 3 bottles of wine a night 24 hours after stopping drinking i may show presence but may not exceed a limit. If i drink 3 bottles every day i may show presence at any time the question is do i exceed a limit.

Really Interested · 13-05-2017 1:20pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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On what basis will a person run off to Europe?

Fred Swanson · 13-05-2017 1:22pm

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The Specialist · 13-05-2017 1:27pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

No doubt they will claim the law breaches their human rights or such bullcrap.

They make it illegal tomorrow to drive after taking a cough syrup. You get stopped and they arrest you for having it in your system and ban you from driving. I'm sure you'd have a different view about your 'rights' in that scenario.

Fred Swanson · 13-05-2017 1:28pm

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The Specialist · 13-05-2017 1:31pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Then I don't take cough syrup and drive. It is that simple.

It"s illogical and ungrounded in any scientific study but you'll just obey anyway? Good lad.

Really Interested · 13-05-2017 1:33pm

The Specialist wrote: »

They make it illegal tomorrow to drive after taking a cough syrup. You get stopped and they arrest you for having it in your system and ban you from driving. I'm sure you'd have a different view about your 'rights' in that scenario.

Many people have been banned for 4 years after taking prescription and over the counter meds. If impairment is proved. So if your cough syrup makes you sleepy there is a good chance it will show up on a blood test and if you drove badly then there can be enough for a conviction.

Really Interested · 13-05-2017 1:35pm

The Specialist wrote: »

It"s illogical and ungrounded in any scientific study but you'll just obey anyway? Good lad.

Would you let a doctor operate on you knowing he took meds that had a warning that they can cause sleepiness and not to operate heavy machinery.

GM228 · 13-05-2017 1:39pm

The Specialist wrote: »

They make it illegal tomorrow to drive after taking a cough syrup. You get stopped and they arrest you for having it in your system and ban you from driving. I'm sure you'd have a different view about your 'rights' in that scenario.

Whilst access to/use of a medicine may be considered a fundamental element of the right to health, driving a vehicle isn't, no "rights" are affected.

Drug driving new laws

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