Dublin Bus stages

Tusky

Can someone explain to me how the Dublin Bus stages work? I've pasted the 39 route below. For example, why is there two numbers beisde Burlington Road? Is it stage 22 or 78?

Fare Stages
22 78 Burlington Rd.
23 77 Lwr. Baggot St. (Pembroke St.)
24 76 Dawson St. / Kildare St.
25 75 Aston Quay / Bachelors Walk
26 74 Wood Quay / Upr. Ormond Quay
27 73 Usher's Quay / C.Y.C
28 72 Stoneybatter (Stanhope St. School)
29 71 Prussia St. (Hanlon's Corner)
30 70 Old Cabra Rd. (Railway Bridge)
31 69 Cabra Cross
32 68 Navan Rd. (Employment Exchange)
33 67 Navan Rd. (Cabra Garda Station)
34 66 Navan Rd. (Baggot Rd.)
35 65 Navan Rd. (St. Vincent's Home)
36 64 Navan Rd. (Ashtown Roundabout)
37 63 Navan Rd. (Old Racecourse)
38 62 Navan Rd. (St. Brigid's GAA Club)
39 61 Navan Rd. (Auburn Ave. Junction)
40 60 Navan Rd. (M50 Interchange)
41 59 Navan Rd. (Brady's Restaurant)
42 58 Blanchardstown Village
43 57 Blanchardstown Centre
44 56 Hartstown Rd. (Willow Wood Estate)
45 55 Ongar
- See more at: http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/39/#sthash.eHZAf8g9.dpuf

Tickityboo

Tusky wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how the Dublin Bus stages work? I've pasted the 39 route below. For example, why is there two numbers beisde Burlington Road? Is it stage 22 or 78?

Fare Stages
22 78 Burlington Rd.
23 77 Lwr. Baggot St. (Pembroke St.)
24 76 Dawson St. / Kildare St.
25 75 Aston Quay / Bachelors Walk
26 74 Wood Quay / Upr. Ormond Quay
27 73 Usher's Quay / C.Y.C
28 72 Stoneybatter (Stanhope St. School)
29 71 Prussia St. (Hanlon's Corner)
30 70 Old Cabra Rd. (Railway Bridge)
31 69 Cabra Cross
32 68 Navan Rd. (Employment Exchange)
33 67 Navan Rd. (Cabra Garda Station)
34 66 Navan Rd. (Baggot Rd.)
35 65 Navan Rd. (St. Vincent's Home)
36 64 Navan Rd. (Ashtown Roundabout)
37 63 Navan Rd. (Old Racecourse)
38 62 Navan Rd. (St. Brigid's GAA Club)
39 61 Navan Rd. (Auburn Ave. Junction)
40 60 Navan Rd. (M50 Interchange)
41 59 Navan Rd. (Brady's Restaurant)
42 58 Blanchardstown Village
43 57 Blanchardstown Centre
44 56 Hartstown Rd. (Willow Wood Estate)
45 55 Ongar
- See more at: http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/39/#sthash.eHZAf8g9.dpuf

One is for inbound and the other is for outbound.

Tusky

Tickityboo wrote: »

One is for inbound and the other is for outbound.

Right. So if I'm going from Hartstown Road (56) to Cabra Cross (69) I have traveled 13 stages and the cash fare would be €2.80. Is that correct?

Slippin Jimmy

Tusky wrote: »

Right. So if I'm going from Hartstown Road (56) to Cabra Cross (69) I have traveled 13 stages and the cash fare would be €2.80. Is that correct?

Yeah it works out at €2.80

AlekSmart

Tusky wrote: »

Right. So if I'm going from Hartstown Road (56) to Cabra Cross (69) I have traveled 13 stages and the cash fare would be €2.80. Is that correct?

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fare-Calculator/

Yes,however if you had sense you'd be paying €2.05 via Leapcard.....(NB This is 10c LESS than last year's Leapcard fare )

Tusky

Duffff-Man wrote: »

Yeah it works out at €2.80

Cheers. Someone told me you subtract the stages and then add one, which confused me a little. Using their method and my example, it would be 14 stages and a higher fare.

[edit] In this example it says 15 stages, but 70 - 56 = 14. Any ideas why?

the groutch

Tusky wrote: »

Cheers. Someone told me you subtract the stages and then add one, which confused me a little. Using their method and my example, it would be 14 stages and a higher fare.

[edit] In this example it says 15 stages, but 70 - 56 = 14. Any ideas why?

maybe because part of a stage still counts as a full one.

eg. there are 3 STOPS between stages 69 & 70.
if you go one stop beyond stage 69, it counts as travelling to stage 70.

same applies at the other end, if you get on one stop before stage 56, it counts as getting on at stage 55.

LXFlyer

Tusky wrote: »

Cheers. Someone told me you subtract the stages and then add one, which confused me a little. Using their method and my example, it would be 14 stages and a higher fare.

[edit] In this example it says 15 stages, but 70 - 56 = 14. Any ideas why?

From the Dublin Bus website:

Stages

The number of stages travelled is calculated by deducting the boarding stage number from the alighting stage number

Passengers boarding between stage points pay the appropriate fare from the preceding stage point.

Passengers alighting between stage points pay the appropriate fare to the next stage point.

Stevek101

Out of interest has the ticket machine been updated to automatically update stages yet?

LXFlyer

Stevek101 wrote: »

Out of interest has the ticket machine been updated to automatically update stages yet?

No - still manual updates.

StreetLight

Stevek101 wrote: »

Out of interest has the ticket machine been updated to automatically update stages yet?

Route 37 is to be trialled on auto stage updating.

Stevek101

StreetLight wrote: »

Route 37 is to be trialled on auto stage updating.

Hopefully it won't make the machine even slower! But it is good that a trial is in the works been well over a year since this was first talked of.

ixoy

StreetLight wrote: »

Route 37 is to be trialled on auto stage updating.

Would this allow Leap card users to tag on and off via the machine instead of the driver? The current setup is ridiculous.

LXFlyer

ixoy wrote: »

Would this allow Leap card users to tag on and off via the machine instead of the driver? The current setup is ridiculous.

No - it will remain tag on only.

frankyboy1986

also might be handy to know that stage 25 and 75 are always the city centre(closest stop to o connell street) stage on most (if not all) city routes

frankyboy1986

also might be handy to know that stage 25 and 75 are always the city centre(closest stop to o connell street) stage on most (if not all) city routes also the stage number for the inbound and outbound stage always add upto 100

bk

For the the love of god would Dublin Bus please dump the god awful, confusing and antiquated stage fare system!

Hell even most bus drivers don't understand it! Either move to flat fare or tag-on/tag-off

With the changes to the fare structure for Leap recently, it looks like the NTA might be heading towards a flat fare over time (fingers crossed), now we have:

Stages 1 to 3 €1.50
Stages 4 to 13 €2.05
Over 13 Stages €2.60

The Expresso and City Center fares are niche outliers.

The next step is obvious, dump stages 1 to 3 and over 13 fares and make €2.05 the standard flat leap fare.

Expresso could be left, it just becomes the flat fare on Expresso specific buses, which it already is, a clear sign the NTA are heading towards a flat fare.

I'd personally drop the City Center fare, I think it is a massive waste of time, however you could still keep it, it would just require driver interaction, same as cash fares.

However imagine the vast majority of Leap users switching to the right hand validator and skipping the driver entirely and the resulting time savings. It would be fantastic.

In time once this is working smoothly, also introduce a single flat cash fare. I'd set it at €4, so that there would be a big psychological difference between the €2.05 leap fare and the €4 cash fare and thus drive people to use Leap.

Now at this point a certain poster is going to jump in and complain that it is too risky for Dublin Bus to change it's fare structure like this as it risks its revenue! Not true, after 3 years of Leap the NTA most by now have a rich source of data on the amount of people who travel on each fare level. So it should be trivial for them to work out a flat fare that would lose no revenue. Maybe it would be €2.10, maybe €2.20, but it should be trivial for them to use the data to set a flat fare that won't have any effect on revenue.

Ben D Bus

lxflyer wrote: »

No - it will remain tag on only.

I think a tag-off-only machine located by the centre doors might be a useful addition at some point in the future. Could solve a couple of things. Unless a flat fare is introduced of course.

Tag-off at the front door would be chaotic.

poggyone

How many time must it be posted before people get it into their heads Dublin Bus do not set the fares.
As of February Dublin Bus do not get any money from the cash box, it all goes to the NTA, Dublin Bus will be getting a flat fee from the NTA for operating a route.

So no point in blaming Dublin Bus for any of you problems with fare prices, they have nothing to do with Dublin Bus.
Get angry with the NTA.

bk

poggyone wrote: »

How many time must it be posted before people get it into their heads Dublin Bus do not set the fares.
As of February Dublin Bus do not get any money from the cash box, it all goes to the NTA, Dublin Bus will be getting a flat fee from the NTA for operating a route.

So no point in blaming Dublin Bus for any of you problems with fare prices, they have nothing to do with Dublin Bus.
Get angry with the NTA.

I'm sorry, but what total BS!!

Dublin Bus has existed since 1987 and they existed as part of CIE since 1945!

DB created the stage fare system and has maintained it and operated it for decades now. The NTA has only existed for 5 years now, it only started setting DB fares 3 years ago and it will only move to the new model in February!

So you certainly can't blame the NTA for this mess, it is clearly DB mess and now the NTA are stepping in to fix it.

Looking at the fare page and the adjustments that the NTA made this year, it is very clear that they are gradually working there way towards flat fares.

Expresso is already a defacto flat fare.

The Child fares are just one very simple and uncrotversial step from being a flat fare. Currently Child fares are flat during school hours and are flat outside of these hours when using Expresso. Only for standard buses outside school hours, there are two fares:

Stages 1 to 7 €0.90
Over 7 Stages €1.10

The change here is very obvious, split the difference and make it a €1 flat fare and then ALL child fares are flat fares and zero need for driver interaction.

And now that just leaves the adult fares which might be a little more difficult and politically charged. With the NTA merging stages 4 to 7 and 8 to 13, it is very clear where they are going with this. The only question is will they jump to the flat fare this year or more gradually approach it over two years.

It is very clear that the NTA are doing the right thing here, just perhaps slower then I'd like.

However I notice this trend in a number of posts of people trying to deflect the failings of Dublin Bus onto the NTA!

This is complete nonsesnse, DB has existed for decades and the problems with DB have existed for decades before the NTA even existed. Let me make it clear:

- DB created and maintained the stage fare structure.
- DB decided to go with single door buses, with high dwell times.
- DB decided to buy antiquated ticket machines which were already out of date and had been replaced by new much more powerful models when they bought them.
- DB decided to operate to only 11:30 (far too early), decided to have no early Sunday serivces and decided not to have a proper 24/7 late night service.

These are all the main problems with DB and NON of them were created by the NTA. They were all created by Dublin Bus.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

bk wrote: »

- DB created and maintained the stage fare structure.
- DB decided to go with single door buses, with high dwell times.
- DB decided to buy antiquated ticket machines which were already out of date and had been replaced by new much more powerful models when they bought them.
- DB decided to operate to only 11:30 (far too early), decided to have no early Sunday serivces and decided not to have a proper 24/7 late night service.

just to point, things are in the hands of the NTA now regarding fares etc. not dublin bus. (NTA made cash fare 3.30 when dublin bus only wanted 3.)

i see why you want the flat fare and i understand it BUT the stage system is smart in the sense you pay for what you use. i.e if im only going down the road why should i pay full whack ?
or if someone is going from the start of the route to the very end why do they get to pay the same as someone who only wanted to go 4 stops ?

Seems a bit unfair in my eyes to be honest.

DB ticket machines are the same ones on Aircoach too and they do the job they are supposed to. But i agree are slow at times on the leap cards.

DB are looking at a 24 hour service if it is possible and required. nothing to do with the NTA here, just DB going at it by themselves.

bk

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

just to point, things are in the hands of the NTA now regarding fares etc. not dublin bus. (NTA made cash fare 3.30 when dublin bus only wanted 3.)

Oh, I know, but that is only a very recent development and strictly speaking it hasn't fully happened yet.

Until now, the NTA could adjust the stage fares, but couldn't force DB to scrap them completely. I expect they will only gain this power come February with the changes to who controls the fare box.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but it really looks like the NTA are heading to a flat fare system, at least I hope so.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

i see why you want the flat fare and i understand it BUT the stage system is smart in the sense you pay for what you use. i.e if im only going down the road why should i pay full whack ?

I know what you mean, which is why I've long be a fan of the Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off system where you pay per km for the distance you travel. Much fairer system and much better integrated with using multiple buses, trams, etc.

However unfortunately in order to implement a system like this, you really need dual door buses, where the rear doors are opened at every stop and people leave via the rear door (and thus tag-off) while people board via the front door. That isn't possible as the majority of Dublin Buses fleet is stupidly single door.

Tagging-off at the front door is questionable how successful that would be. So it looks like the only way to improve dwell times now is to move to a flat fare system.

Yes, that will be somewhat unfair and may piss off a small number of people on shorter routes, however overall making using DB much easier and reducing peoples journey times due to reduced dwell times will I believe significantly improve DB service and most people will welcome it.

Also London has a flat fare, so obviously it can and does work.

Another point is that typically, public transport wants to discourage people from making short journeys, for two reasons:

1) To free up more capacity for people who want to travel long distance and have no other option unlike people making short trips.
2) To encourage people on short journeys to choose healthier and more environmentally friendly options of walking or cycling.

That is why the fare on Luas for only one zone is so high, to discourage it's use for short journeys. This is typical of public transport all over Europe and it is why the DB city center fare is such a strange fare and I expect will end up being chopped.

BTW old age and disabled people aren't an issue as they are covered by the free travel pass.

Final point, for the truly longer journeys like to Skerries, Balbriggan, etc. You can make them more expensive anyway by making more of them Expresso routes and thus having the higher Expresso flat fare. Thus would also benefit people living in these places as there are likely to be less stopping as people would be discouraged from using them due to the higher price.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

DB ticket machines are the same ones on Aircoach too and they do the job they are supposed to. But i agree are slow at times on the leap cards.

True, but Aircoaches routes and fares are far less complicated. Aircoach is a coach type service, which is very different to a city bus service. They don't have stages, just a small number of options and they don't have Leap.

The DB ticket machine is simply not up to operating in a modern city bus service environment.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

DB are looking at a 24 hour service if it is possible and required. nothing to do with the NTA here, just DB going at it by themselves.

Wow, well that would me fantastic. If it is a proper service, running 24/7, picking up in both directions and only slightly more expensive then the regular service, then I can well imagine it being a big success. Hope we get this soon.

poggyone

bk wrote: »

I'm sorry, but what total BS!!

Dublin Bus has existed since 1987 and they existed as part of CIE since 1945!

DB created the stage fare system and has maintained it and operated it for decades now. The NTA has only existed for 5 years now, it only started setting DB fares 3 years ago and it will only move to the new model in February!

So you certainly can't blame the NTA for this mess, it is clearly DB mess and now the NTA are stepping in to fix it.

Looking at the fare page and the adjustments that the NTA made this year, it is very clear that they are gradually working there way towards flat fares.

Expresso is already a defacto flat fare.

The Child fares are just one very simple and uncrotversial step from being a flat fare. Currently Child fares are flat during school hours and are flat outside of these hours when using Expresso. Only for standard buses outside school hours, there are two fares:

Stages 1 to 7 €0.90
Over 7 Stages €1.10

The change here is very obvious, split the difference and make it a €1 flat fare and then ALL child fares are flat fares and zero need for driver interaction.

And now that just leaves the adult fares which might be a little more difficult and politically charged. With the NTA merging stages 4 to 7 and 8 to 13, it is very clear where they are going with this. The only question is will they jump to the flat fare this year or more gradually approach it over two years.

It is very clear that the NTA are doing the right thing here, just perhaps slower then I'd like.

However I notice this trend in a number of posts of people trying to deflect the failings of Dublin Bus onto the NTA!

This is complete nonsesnse, DB has existed for decades and the problems with DB have existed for decades before the NTA even existed. Let me make it clear:

- DB created and maintained the stage fare structure.
- DB decided to go with single door buses, with high dwell times.
- DB decided to buy antiquated ticket machines which were already out of date and had been replaced by new much more powerful models when they bought them.
- DB decided to operate to only 11:30 (far too early), decided to have no early Sunday serivces and decided not to have a proper 24/7 late night service.

These are all the main problems with DB and NON of them were created by the NTA. They were all created by Dublin Bus.

So much anger, so much wrong.

You do know DB wanted a flat fare around the year 2000 but where refused by government.

Seem’s to be 3 main things that posters bitch about DB.
1- fares too high
2-bus takes too long goes a convoluted route.
3- level of service too infrequent.

All you have to do to know who is the cause of so much grief for you angry commuters is answer 3 questions.
1- who sets the fares?
2- who sets the routes,network direct?
3- who sets the level of service?

Hint: it’s not DB.

In years past DB had to work around political interference.
Today the politicians keep their hands clean and get the NTA to do their bidding.
Same level of interference , just another layer of deniability for our politicians.
Minister of transport pulls the strings than shifts blame to NTA.
Minister of health pulls the strings than shifts blame to HSE.
You are very naive to thing otherwise.

bk

poggyone, I'm aware that DB previously tried to introduce flat fares and it is a great pity that it was blocked by political interference.

Fortunately it looks like the NTA are trying again, but they are approaching it more cautiously, probably to avoid this political interference.

However I'm sorry, Network direct was a Dublin Bus project. The routes and schedules were very much largely designed by Dublin Bus, most routes and schedules have been the same for years.

NTA has only recently (as in the last year) taken control of route and scheduling planing and for the most part, yes they have for the most part only rubber stamped Dublin Buses decisions so far, but I'm certain we will see increasing NTA involvement in these decisions as they sort out DB's mess.

Just look at the fantastic job the NTA have done on the intercity routes. WE have gone from BE running a crappy service between Cork and Dublin, that stopped at 6pm and took 4 and a half hours, to an amazing private service that runs almost hourly, 24 hours a day adn takes just 3 hours!! I'm looking forward to the NTA brining the same innovation and service improvement to Dublins City Bus services.

If you went to Germany or Poland 20 years ago, you would have found buses that had at least 2 doors, 3 to 4 in many cases! Amazing dwell times, all doors open at every stop and people quickly board, zero driver interaction, you validate your ticket on the bus with a simple stamper, tickets usually are T60 or T90, giving you unlimited bus travel for 60/90 minutes. Oh and they also have late night services and the timetable at every stop that is actually for that stop!!

All of things were the norm in mainland europe 20 years ago!!! These are what we expect from a quality Eureopean city bus service and it is what DB fail miserably at. DB could have done all of this at any time over the last 20 years, but couldn't be bothered, so please don't blame the NTA for Dublin Buses failures.

It is a very sad attempt at deflection, blaming others for your failures.

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

just to point, things are in the hands of the NTA now regarding fares etc. not dublin bus. (NTA made cash fare 3.30 when dublin bus only wanted 3.)

No, you're completely wrong there, Dublin Bus requested €3.25 and they were told to have €3.30 which is rather a bit different to what you actually claim.

Dublin Bus also asked for increases for the cheapest possible fare (leap) for some types of journey in excess of what they actually got.

Stages 8 - 13 (requested 2.25 - Got 2.05)
Xpresso (requested 3.00 - Got 2.85)

But you're complaining about cash fares going up by 5c. People have a cheaper alternative, it would have been far worse if the leap rises requested were given, since there is no cheaper alternative there for single journeys.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

DB ticket machines are the same ones on Aircoach too and they do the job they are supposed to. But i agree are slow at times on the leap cards.

The Aircoach ones only have to issue fares to a very small number of palces on a very small number of routes.

For their airport services everyone gets off at the airport or gets on at the airport. Tickets are not even sold by drivers at the airport and are instead sold by customer service staff. The only time tickets are sold on the coach is to the airport on the 700/702/703 and there can only be one destination.

Belfast and Cork are simpler still, if it's from Belfast it's either Dublin City or Dublin Airport, if it's from Dublin Airport or Dublin City it can only be Belfast which on Cork the same applies, just substitute Belfast with Cork.

Aircoach use those machines to a lot less degree than Dublin Bus and they don't need anything more. Dublin Bus meanwhile has thousands of stops, over 100 routes, many different fare levels and a huge number of prepaid tickets and smartcards. The Aircoach machines don't even have a smartcard reader.

DB are looking at a 24 hour service if it is possible and required. nothing to do with the NTA here, just DB going at it by themselves.

Dublin Bus cannot go at it by themselves since they would need subsidy and apply for changes to the timetable which would need to be approved by the NTA, so it certainly has something to do with the NTA, even if you don't like it.

devnull

poggyone wrote: »

1- who sets the fares?

Dublin Bus requests and the NTA has the say.

For the last number of years Dublin Bus have not shown enough encouragement for changing to leap card from cash fares, this can be seen in fare requests they have submitted to the NTA over the past few years.

Generally the NTA have approved slightly higher cash fare increases than Dublin Bus have proposed (5c in the last round) but the NTA have denied Dublin Bus requested fares for leap cards, and in fact if DUblin Bus had set their own fares for these fares, a good percentage of leap card holders would be paying much more than now.

who sets the routes,network direct?

When Network Direct was formed, it was an idea of DUblin Bus, when the project first started being studied the NTA didn't even exist properly and it's only after the first phases of the project that the NTA came on stream and even then they had little power and less input than they did now.

Today the politicians keep their hands clean and get the NTA to do their bidding./QUOTE]

We are much better off with the NTA rather than without it. A lot has been done for passengers which otherwise probably never would have happened, since what we had before was basically a downtown office of CIE rather than a proper authority or regulator.

poggyone

devnull wrote: »

apply for changes to the timetable which would need to be approved by the NTA, so it certainly has something to do with the NTA, even if you don't like it.

Well this is one thing you got right, DB don't change anything without the expressed consent of the NTA.
NTA make all the decisions, set fares,routes and service level.

poggyone

devnull wrote: »

Dublin Bus requests and the NTA has the say.

For the last number of years Dublin Bus have not shown enough encouragement for changing to leap card from cash fares, this can be seen in fare requests they have submitted to the NTA over the past few years.

Why would DB be enthusiastic about leap when it don't work properly and looses them money with all the failed/faulty reads?
The machine can't cope with all the new leap tickets, it works fine as a dumb ticket machine but not as leap machine.
Bus starts work at 6am, all day leap is used, transactions are stored on machine, the machine locks up at 2100, it is rebooted to get it to work again, all transactions are lost, Dublin Bus don't get payed a penny for the days work, the money is gone.

devnull

poggyone wrote: »

Well this is one thing you got right, DB don't change anything without the expressed consent of the NTA.
NTA make all the decisions, set fares,routes and service level.

At the end of the day, the NTA pay for the new vehicles, the NTA are the ones which the PSO comes via, so of course they will have a say in what happens and it will always be the case with any public company in any industry, government or a regulator or authority is also going to be involved due to the fact the funding comes from the state.

But it is incorrect to say that the NTA are resposible for everything that has happened over the existance of Dublin Bus, they've only been really around since 2010, and it's only been the last 3-4 years that they've really come to the fore.

Dublin Bus wanted to increase the lowest possible fare on some fare types more than the NTA allowed. Whilst the NTA increased some cash fares by 5c more, people can save by using leap for single journey fares. If the Leap fares go up more, there is no cheaper alternative for single journey.

devnull

poggyone wrote: »

Why would DB be enthusiastic about leap when it don't work properly and looses them money with all the failed/faulty reads?
The machine can't cope with all the new leap tickets, it works fine as a dumb ticket machine but not as leap machine.

And that is because the ticket machines need replacing since they are not suitable for a proper smart card product like leap. They are good for your average basic tickets such as Dublin Bus supplied for ages, but for a proper smart card solution they are not good enough.

It's not a problem with the leap card, it's a problem with the machines being pushed beyond what they would be intended for.

Bus starts work at 6am, all day leap is used, transactions are stored on machine, the machine locks up at 2100, it is rebooted to get it to work again, all transactions are lost, Dublin Bus don't get payed a penny for the days work, the money is gone.

No transactions using leap credit are stored, the balance is held on the card and the cash is deducted at time the fare being taken.

I'm not sure where your theory is coming from here.

foggy_lad

poggyone wrote: »

Why would DB be enthusiastic about leap when it don't work properly and looses them money with all the failed/faulty reads?
The machine can't cope with all the new leap tickets, it works fine as a dumb ticket machine but not as leap machine.
Bus starts work at 6am, all day leap is used, transactions are stored on machine, the machine locks up at 2100, it is rebooted to get it to work again, all transactions are lost, Dublin Bus don't get payed a penny for the days work, the money is gone.

Why did Dublin bus buy those machines which were well out of date and not suitable for the job when they were bought? Dublin bus knew that Leap cards were coming yet bought a ticketing system which was incapable of being reliably upgraded to meet future demands.

When the current machines ewre bought they had already been replaced by the manufacturer with a much better model yet Dublin Bus/CIE wasted money on old technology.Those responsible should be made accountable.

devnull

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why did Dublin bus buy those machines which were well out of date and not suitable for the job when they were bought? Dublin bus knew that Leap cards were coming yet bought a ticketing system which was incapable of being reliably upgraded to meet future demands.

To be fair, those machines were bought around 2005 or so, and you know leap was a pipe dream at that time and I have a bit of sympathy for them with that, since many of the technologies that developed in the 10 years since could never have been anticipated.

When the current machines ewre bought they had already been replaced by the manufacturer with a much better model yet Dublin Bus/CIE wasted money on old technology.Those responsible should be made accountable.

They could have bought the newer model, but the newer model wasn't as well established then as it hadn't been out that long, in hindsight they should have bought the newer model, but hindsight is a wonderful thing and generally such contracts and decisions in state companies were done on tender and price would be a very important if not the only important factor at the time.

I completely agree it's not good enough right now and needs to be replaced ASAP, but you know I can see why they bought them even if it was a mistake.

poggyone

devnull wrote: »

When Network Direct was formed, it was an idea of DUblin Bus, when the project first started being studied the NTA didn't even exist properly and it's only after the first phases of the project that the NTA came on stream and even then they had little power and less input than they did now.

Now is the important word in this quote.
DB dont decide anything, they just follow NTA orders.

When the NTA did not exist we had politicians interfere left, right and centre.
Now the politicians get the NTA to do the dirty work and can say we don't interfere, the NTA are there to provide a cover for politicians.

Don't believe what i say, look at time tables for routes all over dublin.
A simple explanation ,Route xx travels from heuston to o'connell bridge all day from 0620 to 2330, every 20 minutes.
What have we here the 0740 is slightly different it starts in kilmainham and goes to the IFSC and then again it departs the IFSC at 1700 and goes to kilmainham.
Only one journey each way each day is extended, seems a bit unusual.
Then the drivers of the route xx get to know the passengers and over time they notice one woman always gets the 0740 and 1700 the full way kilmainham to IFSC and back.
One day reading the paper a driver see's the womans photo in the paper, related to a politician.
The politician has interfered in the running of DB to provide a Bus to take a relation to and from work.
That is a simple example, if you have nothing better to do, check out past and present time tables to find similar anomalies.

poggyone

devnull wrote: »

No transactions using leap credit are stored, the balance is held on the card and the cash is deducted at time the fare being taken.

I'm not sure where your theory is coming from here.

When you top up a leap card the money all goes into a pool held by the NTA.
When you use the leap card on DB the card is deducted the fare , and the DB ticket machine is credited the fare.
At the end of the Day the ticket machine on the bus downloads this info off how much money it has taken for the day and DB submit this to the NTA and are paid for the days takings.
If the machine locks up and is rebooted to get to work again all the info is lost, DB can't get paid because they can't submit a total for the day.
I hope i explained it so you understand.

devnull

poggyone wrote: »

Now is the important word in this quote.
DB dont decide anything, they just follow NTA orders.

No, there are some decisions they can make, but some of the stuff has to be approved by the NTA, so they can decide something or suggest it, but it needs approval and sometimes the NTA will ask for something, but it's wrong to say that Dublin Bus don't have any say or input because they do.

When the NTA did not exist we had politicians interfere left, right and centre. Now the politicians get the NTA to do the dirty work and can say we don't interfere, the NTA are there to provide a cover for politicians.

Well there is political interference everywhere, if you think it's just the NTA or public companies you'd be wrong. I have worked in a private company and a politican once called in and spun do you know who I am line and asked me if we could make an exception for him, so don't see how it's worth being the NTA up over that when it's fairly common, especially in Ireland.

Don't believe what i say, look at time tables for routes all over dublin.
A simple explanation ,Route xx travels from heuston to o'connell bridge all day from 0620 to 2330, every 20 minutes.
What have we here the 0740 is slightly different it starts in kilmainham and goes to the IFSC and then again it departs the IFSC at 1700 and goes to kilmainham.
Only one journey each way each day is extended, seems a bit unusual.
Then the drivers of the route xx get to know the passengers and over time they notice one woman always

There were route variations like that 10 years ago, it's hardly something that is rare or happened under the NTAs watch. On some timetables you had 4-5 variations of a service, yet they all had the same number.

If I remember correctly, route 172 was widely believed to have continued for as long as it did despite carrying little more than thin air for ages was because someone important lived on the route and it helped them win votes.

devnull

poggyone wrote: »

When you top up a leap card the money all goes into a pool held by the NTA.
When you use the leap card on DB the card is deducted the fare , and the DB ticket machine is credited the fare.
At the end of the Day the ticket machine on the bus downloads this info off how much money it has taken for the day and DB submit this to the NTA and are paid for the days takings.
If the machine locks up and is rebooted to get to work again all the info is lost, DB can't get paid because they can't submit a total for the day.
I hope i explained it so you understand.

So if this is such a major problem and they are losing so much money, surely there has to be at some point where it is cheaper to invest in ticket machines than lose the cash.

Thing is though, if this really is a problem, then how would the leap online balance check know where the fare comes from? It would have no idea if this really was happening.

poggyone

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why did Dublin bus buy those machines which were well out of date and not suitable for the job when they were bought? Dublin bus knew that Leap cards were coming yet bought a ticketing system which was incapable of being reliably upgraded to meet future demands.

When the current machines ewre bought they had already been replaced by the manufacturer with a much better model yet Dublin Bus/CIE wasted money on old technology.Those responsible should be made accountable.

The game Snake worked flawless on a phone from 2005,Try playing Angry Bird on a phone from 2005, it will be useless.

poggyone

devnull wrote: »

So if this is such a major problem and they are losing so much money, surely there has to be at some point where it is cheaper to invest in ticket machines than lose the cash.

Thing is though, if this really is a problem, then how would the leap online balance check know where the fare comes from? It would have no idea if this really was happening.

1.As of next month it not a problem for DB as they are getting a flat fee per bus on a route.
2.Plenty of posts here about the online balance not updating for a day or two. Next time the leap card was used on a machine that uploaded at the end of the night it would then appear online, until now you did not know why it was delayed , well now you do.

Stevek101

poggyone wrote: »

1.As of next month it not a problem for DB as they are getting a flat fee per bus on a route.
2.Plenty of posts here about the online balance not updating for a day or two. Next time the leap card was used on a machine that uploaded at the end of the night it would then appear online, until now you did not know why it was delayed , well now you do.

So in other words DB do/did get paid even after a reboot.;)

cdebru

poggyone wrote: »

Now is the important word in this quote.
DB dont decide anything, they just follow NTA orders.

When the NTA did not exist we had politicians interfere left, right and centre.
Now the politicians get the NTA to do the dirty work and can say we don't interfere, the NTA are there to provide a cover for politicians.

Don't believe what i say, look at time tables for routes all over dublin.
A simple explanation ,Route xx travels from heuston to o'connell bridge all day from 0620 to 2330, every 20 minutes.
What have we here the 0740 is slightly different it starts in kilmainham and goes to the IFSC and then again it departs the IFSC at 1700 and goes to kilmainham.
Only one journey each way each day is extended, seems a bit unusual.
Then the drivers of the route xx get to know the passengers and over time they notice one woman always gets the 0740 and 1700 the full way kilmainham to IFSC and back.
One day reading the paper a driver see's the womans photo in the paper, related to a politician.
The politician has interfered in the running of DB to provide a Bus to take a relation to and from work.
That is a simple example, if you have nothing better to do, check out past and present time tables to find similar anomalies.

The 51a was an example, went through drumcondra, DB tried getting rid of it numerous times, but never managed to, finally disappeared in 2009, oddly less than a year after Bertie left the stage.

bk

poggyone wrote: »

Now is the important word in this quote.
DB dont decide anything, they just follow NTA orders.

Well that is nonsense.

If it was true, then the new buses that the NTA buy for DB would have the new Transport For Ireland livery which is what the NTA wants. But no, they still have the DB livery because the DB management and unions threw a fit at the idea of this new livery.

So clearly the NTA has no where near the power you suggest. I really REALLY wish they did because I'd honestly believe Dublin would have vastly better bus services if it did have that much power.

cdebru

bk wrote: »

Well that is nonsense.

If it was true, then the new buses that the NTA buy for DB would have the new Transport For Ireland livery which is what the NTA wants. But no, they still have the DB livery because the DB management and unions threw a fit at the idea of this new livery.

So clearly the NTA has no where near the power you suggest. I really REALLY wish they did because I'd honestly believe Dublin would have vastly better bus services if it did have that much power.

Wasn't that Bus Eireann ? I don't think there has been anything in DB regarding TFI liveries.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Well that is nonsense.

If it was true, then the new buses that the NTA buy for DB would have the new Transport For Ireland livery which is what the NTA wants. But no, they still have the DB livery because the DB management and unions threw a fit at the idea of this new livery.

So clearly the NTA has no where near the power you suggest. I really REALLY wish they did because I'd honestly believe Dublin would have vastly better bus services if it did have that much power.

It,s worth addressing some misconceptions on the relationship between BAC and the NTA.

Since the inception of the new regulatory system,the NTA/BAC are contractually bound to each other.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Dublin_Bus_Direct_Award_Contract_Schedules_2014_to_2019.pdf

The Direct Award Contract,now in it's second 5 year period is a deatiled and negotiated agreement between the two parties,just as ALL contracts are.

The key is in the word "Agreement".

Be very clear that neither BAC management or Trades Unions were ever in a position to "Throw a fit at the idea of a new livery".

The primary reason for this is that there is currently NO Transport for Ireland livery.

That's not to say that one will not eventually materialize,however at the moment such an item is NOT a priority (IMO Rightfully so).

What IS agreed between the parties,is the requirement on the part of the Operator to.....

f) display notices as required by Authority from time to time, including, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing,information regarding the conditions of carriage and
conduct of passengers and a notice indicating that the bus is operated under contract to the National Transport Authority
,to a design and at location inside the Network Bus to be agreed with the National Transport Authority, at all times that the bus is operating
the Services

(m)be liveried to the Authority’s requirements

Whilst some may believe,and others even desire,to portray the NTA/BAC relationship as some form of boiling cauldron of disagreement and rancour,the reality is that there are a LOT of professional and highly competent people interacting with each other in a new and,(in Irish terms) uncharted manner.

The award of the second 5 year contract (Modified as it is) was not simply a "nod-through" process,with the NTA having engaged in a substantial internal and external consultation process before arriving at their decision.

As it currently stands,the NTA are now in a substantially more "Powerful" position than they were 6 years ago,simply by virtue of their 5 years of Regulatory Experience and the entire process of monitoring,interpreting and implementing,the Contractual requirements.

It is equally worth noting,that the old "Public vs Private" arguement is being somewhat sidelined by the NTA's role and particularly it's contracting specifications.

Not all Operators will be wildly enthusiastic at the tight specifications and requirements inherent in contracted operations,as it can often reduce the "flexibility" formerly enjoyed in the unregulated world....;)

It's a Brave New World for sure,but the process is by no means complete,and may not be for decades to come.

poggyone

devnull wrote: »

No, there are some decisions they can make,

Do enlighten us, tell us more, don't make a statement and leave it hanging without any examples.

poggyone

Stevek101 wrote: »

So in other words DB do/did get paid even after a reboot.;)

gone and DB will not get paid.

NO, after the reboot the ticket machine is blank, like starting a fresh days work, any leap money that was deducted is gone. DB have no way to show leap card was used on the ticket machine.
NTA has the money in the central pool. They don't care that the machine dont work properly, the only one loosing out was DB.

poggyone

bk wrote: »

Well that is nonsense.

If it was true, then the new buses that the NTA buy for DB would have the new Transport For Ireland livery which is what the NTA wants. But no, they still have the DB livery because the DB management and unions threw a fit at the idea of this new livery.

So clearly the NTA has no where near the power you suggest. I really REALLY wish they did because I'd honestly believe Dublin would have vastly better bus services if it did have that much power.

Classic example of the five stages of grief on display from you and others here.
1-Denial
2-Anger
3-Bargaining
4-Depression
5-Acceptance

1-The NTA are the good guys who are going to work for us passengers.
2-The NTA need to crack down hard on DB
3-The NTA just need more time to fix things
4-The NTA are not doing enough, its still bad getting the bus
5-The NTA are a part of the problem.

Its safe to say most posters are any where between 1 and 3, give it a year and some will have moved on to 4

devnull

poggyone wrote: »

Do enlighten us, tell us more, don't make a statement and leave it hanging without any examples.

- They can decide whether to curtail a route or not due to anti-social behaviour
- They can decide on a diversion to take during service disruption.
- They can decide if a route should go pick up only to recover time
- They can decide which vehicle to put out on which route each day
- They can decide which services to cancel when their are staff services
- They can decide what action to take on complaints
- They can decide the maintenance for vehicles
- They can decide how they tackle fare evasion
- They can decide how they communicate with the public
- They can decide what terms and conditions they offer their staff
- They can decide how the fleet is presented
- They can decide who each route is staffed

There are some things they do that are actually the opposite of what the NTA would want, which also do little to improve transport integration and in fact do exactly the opposite.

- Producing their own journey planner
- Producing their own maps
- Producing their own real time app.

All three of the above are offered by the NTA, but Dublin Bus do not want to use such things because people may find that they have a better or more direct route by another company and Dublin Bus would not like that. There is no reason for PSO companies to have any of the above of their own, when a wider solution already exists for the whole transport network.

The only reason Dublin Bus does not acknowledge that there are other companies are since it will hurt their business, but a PSO company is not supposed to act as a business, they are supposed to act for a greater good, and unfortunately Dublin Bus have shown that over a number of years there very often is a lot of stuff that is company first, the bigger transport picture second, and the three things I outline above are fine examples, blocking the greater good for self preservation reasons.

The whole idea of having publicly owned bus companies is that they put public transport first and self interest and their own interest second. They spend enough time moaning about private companies putting themselves before the passenger, but Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are not always thinking of the bigger picture either.

Dublin Bus needs regulation. Every city needs a transport regulator, since neither private or public companies can be trusted to put the bigger picture first. That's not just unique to Dublin, it's the same in many a city and country. Both private bus companies and public bus companies have their flaws, that is why I support tendering since it takes the ability of either set of companies to use things to their own advantage away from them.

devnull

poggyone wrote: »

gone and DB will not get paid.

NO, after the reboot the ticket machine is blank, like starting a fresh days work, any leap money that was deducted is gone. DB have no way to show leap card was used on the ticket machine.

So tell me again, how does the Leap Card system online know that the fare deducted was from Dublin Bus 24-48 hours later if there is no record of it? It would be impossible.

You claim that this problem is the reason for slow updating balances, but the balances cannot update to show the fare was on Dublin Bus, if the data to prove it does not exist like you claim.

devnull

poggyone wrote: »

Classic example of the five stages of grief on display from you and others here.

Classic example of Dublin Bus staff coming on here spreading Fear, uncertainty and doubt because of the fact that tendering could be happening sometime soon and it may mean that they won't be the most important people anymore?

Of course not! :rolleyes:

dublindiehard

It's getting pathetic this crusade against the national transport authority are getting

All. Down to Tendring at the end of the day but no excuse to come on this board and spread myths to help your cau s e

Is amusing to watch you all though as you realise that the days where you come first may soon be over and how much you hate it.

Dublin bus was run for the benefit of the staff for toe long and for the benefit of Dublin bus they never had any interest in the bigger picture of public transport just their own company

They have gone out their way ve block change and intergration so the more power to the authority the better

poggyone

devnull wrote: »

So tell me again, how does the Leap Card system online know that the fare deducted was from Dublin Bus 24-48 hours later if there is no record of it? It would be impossible.

You claim that this problem is the reason for slow updating balances, but the balances cannot update to show the fare was on Dublin Bus, if the data to prove it does not exist like you claim.

Are you be obtuse on purpose?

The card starts with E20, get on DB pay E1.50, card now has E18.50 on it.
Ticket machine locks up, is rebooted looses all info. DB can’t clam for the money earned that day.

The leap ticket still has E18.50 on it, what is the part you don’t understand?