Can I honestly ask a serious question?

Defender OF Faith

httpete wrote: »

I can't believe what I'm reading here. Someone saying that a middle aged man having sex with a 9 year old is fine. Truly unbelievable, I never thought I'd see a statement like that on this forum....

Shocking stuff to read that this is the Muslim view on the acceptable age of consent...although I doubt consent comes into it in alot of the cases based on the attitude displayed above...

You have clearly not followed the whole argument through to arrive at such conclusion, and still continue to judge using your own standards something which happened 1400 years ago. We were speaking about the age of consent in the past and how we should not correlate and judge people in the past based on our standards regarding the age of consent in the present.

The following is taken from my latest response, so I can summarise the whole issue and its principle points so far..

“Traditionally, across the globe, the age of consent for sexual union was a matter for the family to decide, or a tribal custom. In most cases, this coincided with signs of puberty, menstruation for a woman and pubic hair for a man.
Sir Edward Coke in 17th century England ‘made it clear that the marriage of girls under 12 was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband’s estate was 9.

In his book, The Emphatic civilization, (Penguin, NY, 200) Jeremy Rifkin points out that the concept of adolescence only emerged during the last decade of the nineteenth century and the first three decades of the twentieth century. Society started to think of childhood as extending beyond puberty, into the later teenage years. Before that, children were considered to graduate into adulthood with the onset of puberty.”

Extract from What’s Wrong in America: A Look at Troublesome Issues in Our Country By Arthur Siccan

Professor Richard Wortley and Professor Stephen Smallbone, both of whom state that prior to the 1900s girls married very young,

“In Medieval and early modern European societies, the age of marriage remained low, with documented cases of brides as young as seven years, although marriages were typically not consummated until the girl reached puberty (Bullough 2004). Shakespeare’s Juliet was just 13, and there is no hint in the play that this was considered to be exceptional. The situation was similar on the other side of the Atlantic; Bullough reports the case in 1689 of a nine-year-old bride in Virginia. At the start of the nineteenth century in England, it was legal to have sex with a 10 year-old girl.”

Internet Child Pornography: Causes, Investigation, and Prevention By Richard Wortley, Stephen Smallbon page 10

“Until the late 20th century U.S. age of consent laws specifically names males as perpetrators and females as victims. Following English law, in which the age was set at 12 in 1275 and lowered to 10 in 1576, ages of consent in the American colonies were generally set at 10 or 12. The laws protected female virginity, which at the time was considered a valuable commodity until marriage. The theft of a girl’s chastity was seen as a property crime against her father and future husband. If two people were married and had sex, no matter what their age, no crime was committed because a woman was her husband’s property. In practice, too, the consent laws only protected white females, as many non-white females were enslaved or otherwise discriminated against by the legal system.”

Sex and Society, Volume 1 page 54

Merril D. Smith says that the age which a girl could marry was 10 to 13 in most societies

“To that end, from ancient times to the present, many societies have acted to try to safeguard children from rape and other forms of sexual degradation, though they might define sexual degradation differently from era to era and from place to place. One way societies have tried to protect young girls is through laws that designate a statutory age of consent. Such laws prohibit men from having sexual relations with females under a specified age on legal theory that they are too young and immature to make informed decision and, therefore, are incapable of giving a legal consent. Historically, the age of consent was set at 10 or 13 years, depending on the era and the culture, and tended to coincide with female puberty, which was also the age at which a female could marry without parental permission.”

Encyclopedia of Rape by Merril D. Smith page 40

Many more can be cited but these should be enough to make the point. Even today the legal age of marriage in some states is as low as 12, who are we to play God and deem a whole nation as corrupt and misguided based on our standards today?

"Girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they either had their first periods, or their breasts start showing off. Once these event happened she is no longer a "Child" but rather a women.In other words, when they turn into "women", then they get married off, they are no longer considered "Children".
By today standards marrying a Girl at 9 is clearly not ok, but who are you to enforce this into a culture and society which lived 1400 years ago? take a moment to realize the timeline difference between today and this number...

The truth is that at different times and age people differed as to what they considered to be an acceptable age of marriage, now days as Muslims we accept the standards set by society today and not the standards set by the Arabian society 1400 years ago. This is because the laws of Marriage in Islam are very flexible to take into account the changing norms and standards of society and the standard set today does not conflict with any of the Marriage laws within Islam

You mentioned however "Slavery, torture, genocide, pedophilia, female genital mutilation" There is no argument that through history Humanity have recognised each of these as an illness and a social disease even Islam came forbade & taught against each one of these practices. I don't understand how do they even come close to being compared with the age of consent and marriage.

To place yourself in a moral high position and enforce your standards assuming that the Arabs living in 6th century Arabia and the Europeans and Americans prior to the 19th century were paedophiles and criminals, is a conclusion as I have previously said spoken by someone very ignorant or stupid.

The whole Crux of this issue is that Muhammed(pbuh) married Aisha(Ra) at a time when such marriage was a costume at the time and normal to establish tribal relationships and strenghten friendship. Taking into account the role of the women in 6th Century Arabia, a girl was prepared from a young age for marriage and as soon as she reached puberty she was wedded, as women role in society before Islam was restricted to being a housewife & a mother.

Muhammed and Aisha(Ra) had a very loving and successful marriage, as illustrated in post # 113:

Before I finish I think it's important to speak a little bit about Aisha our supposed "Victim" here and the deep,strong love shared between her and our prophet (pbuh) as it would make no sense for a girl to love a man that "forced her to marry him and molested her" as the foolish and ignorant say, but instead repulse and strongly hate & despise him

Everything we know about their marriage is coming to us from her, she's saying only the best thing about her husband Muhammed. She is praising him,loving him and caring about him.

He used to take Aisha for a romantic walk in the desert, and then he would tell her “Aisha, let’s race!”, and the first time she won. Then later on, Aisha gained weight, and raced the prophet SAW again, but this time he won and jokingly told her “This time I won!”. She use to tease him and play trick on him, but still he was a very caring and a loving husband to her.

The prophet stopped a whole army, in times of hostility in the desert, to look for Aisha’s misplaced bead necklace. Now this is love! The prophet used to mend his clothes and look after the domestic affairs of Aisha’s household, to make life easier for her. That is love!

Once the prophet was fixing his shoes and Aisha happened to look to his blessed forehead and noticed that there were beads of sweat on it. Mesmerized by the beauty of her beloved husband, Aisha remained transfixed staring at him long enough until the prophet noticed. So he asked her “what’s the matter?” Aisha replied “If Abu Bukair, the poet, saw you, he would know that his poem was written for you”.

Aisha explained “Abu Bukair said that if you looked to the majesty of the moon, it twinkles and lights up the world for everybody to see”. Would you think this romantic scene ended there? Then you’re terribly wrong, because theirs was a non-stop love story full of romance. The Prophet got up, walked to Aisha, kissed her between the eyes, and told her “I swear by Allaah ya Aisha, you are like that to me and more”.

Aa'ishah speaks about how she would take a sip and then the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would do so from the same spot her lips touched.

A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) says: “The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) would kiss me before leaving for prayers, and he would not perform an ablution.”

Once Aisha asked the Prophet (pbuh) “How is your love for me?”

“Like the rope’s knot,” he replied, indicating that it is strong and secure. And time after time thereafter, she would ask him: “How is the knot?”

And he would reply: “Ala haaliha” [in the same condition].


This man loved this women so much so that he died in her house, with his head on her lap, and the last thing she did was cleaning a tooth stick for him and putting it in his mouth and in this condition he passed away.

For the rest of her life she narrated for him and never said a single bad word about her husband and she never even considered to look at another man for the rest of her life. In her heart and mind she was still married to Muhammed.

We know that Aisha (RA) was considered the most learned among the all the Companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). The following testifies to this.

Abu Musa al-Ashari[companion] says: "Never had we (the companions) any difficulty for the solution of which we approached Aisha and did not get some useful information from her".

She narrated some 2210 Ahadith from the Prophet (PBUH) and this was possible only because she lived with him for nine years and that too at a young age when people have a sharp memory and great sense of observation. Then she lived for about 46 years after the death of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and continued to teach the people matters of religion especially those related to household affairs and marital life. No other wife of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did the similar job that may be compared with her blessed endeavours.

Their relationship is truly a romantic tale that should be taught and practised by husbands and wives today.

Who are you to superimpose your hangups and personal issues with other people, supposing what you would do in similar cases is what you think everyone would do? Both Muhammad(pbuh) and Aisha loved each other deeply and had a very happy and stable Marriage; who are you to impose your own standards and norms into a marriage that happened 1400 years ago and decide what should and should not happen?

You have to understand Islam is all about the worship of only one God, and not making any partners with Him in worship. That is the focus of Islam. Muhammed(pbuh) loving relationship with Aisha(ra) is a vibrant example to every Muslim on how we should approach and treat our wives and loved ones.

Aisha(Ra) from the 2000+ narrations she told. Never in a single one did she say something bad against her husband or in anyway complained or showed displeasure in him.This a women was the most beloved person to the prophet(pbuh), a person he choose to spend the last moments of his life with; dying in her lap, with her last action being softening a toothbrush for him and putting it in his mouth.Aisha(Ra) happiness and acceptance of her marriage to Muhammed(pbuh) is evident.

Who are we to judge and impose our own standards and norm into such a successful marriage in which both parties were happy with; which occurred 1400 years ago?

Tom Dunne

Ok, it's becoming a bit tiresome at this stage to read the "He's a pedophile because he had sex with a 6 year old girl" and "He's not, here's why" followed by walls of text.

We are, yet again, going around in circles.

I appreciate there is increasing interest in Islam in light of recent events, but I really, really don't think this thread is achieving anything. In fact, I actually believe this thread is having a detrimental effect on people's perception of the religion.

Can I ask non-Muslims to step back for a moment and consider what you are debating - written account of something that is alleged to have happened over 1400 years ago. And remember that back then it was an oral tradition - things were not written down for centuries, they were passed down orally. Consider the implications for the veracity of this information and draw your own conclusions rather than spouting blind stereotypes and gross generalisations.