Examples of the staggering lack of tenant & landlord knowledge

Chris_5339762

A discussion at work the other day led me to think it might be an idea to have a thread on the general lack of knowledge of tenants rights/obligations, and landlords rights/obligations.

Hopefully there'll be some interesting examples and some general knowledge sharing without too much fighting. Try and say what is actually the correct thing to do as well.

My two examples:

Co-worker: "My landlord has raised the rent twice in the last year"
Me: "He can only raise it once in any twelve month period, and not above the market rate"
Co-worker: "Oh is that true? Well, anyway he wanted me to sign for another year but I managed to convince him to only let me sign for another six months then I'll move. But the new rent is quite high."
Me: ":eek:"

Issues: On a fixed term lease there cannot be a rent increase within the signed term. And when you're on a Part IV, only once in every twelve months. You also don't HAVE to sign for another twelve months or even six, just exercise your Part IV rights.

Another Co-worker: "Well I gave my landlord my 30 days notice, don't think he's too happy"
Me: "Are you on a fixed term lease, if you are you can't really do that unless he agrees or there is a break clause"
Co-worker: "What do you mean... well I signed something anyway"
Me: ":eek:"

Issues: You can't break a fixed term lease with 30 days notice, you can break it by mutual agreement, a break clause, or by reassigning the tenacy with the landlords agreement.

---

So post your examples of lack of comprehension amongst friends and co-workers. I'm amazed at the total lack of knowledge in the industry. When I was a tenant I didn't know what I now know. How do we change this? How do we better inform the entire marketplace?

Grolschevik

Examples? Every second thread on this forum!

antoinolachtnai

The rental law is very difficult, to be fair. There are a lot of twists and turns and interactions with leases.

I think it would help a bit if there were a standard specimen lease.

Icepick

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

A discussion at work the other day led me to think it might be an idea to have a thread on the general lack of knowledge of tenants rights/obligations, and landlords rights/obligations.

Hopefully there'll be some interesting examples and some general knowledge sharing without too much fighting. Try and say what is actually the correct thing to do as well.

My two examples:

Co-worker: "My landlord has raised the rent twice in the last year"
Me: "He can only raise it once in any twelve month period, and not above the market rate"
Co-worker: "Oh is that true? Well, anyway he wanted me to sign for another year but I managed to convince him to only let me sign for another six months then I'll move. But the new rent is quite high."
Me: ":eek:"

Issues: On a fixed term lease there cannot be a rent increase within the signed term. And when you're on a Part IV, only once in every twelve months. You also don't HAVE to sign for another twelve months or even six, just exercise your Part IV rights.

Another Co-worker: "Well I gave my landlord my 30 days notice, don't think he's too happy"
Me: "Are you on a fixed term lease, if you are you can't really do that unless he agrees or there is a break clause"
Co-worker: "What do you mean... well I signed something anyway"
Me: ":eek:"

Issues: You can't break a fixed term lease with 30 days notice, you can break it by mutual agreement, a break clause, or by reassigning the tenacy with the landlords agreement.

---

So post your examples of lack of comprehension amongst friends and co-workers. I'm amazed at the total lack of knowledge in the industry. When I was a tenant I didn't know what I now know. How do we change this? How do we better inform the entire marketplace?

Worst thing is that people like this then whine about the government not doing anything about high rents when they can't be bothered to educate themselves on the rights they already have.

CatFromHue

I have to say I only signed my first proper renting contract after 6 years of renting (4 years in college not in Dublin, 1 in a house share not in Dublin, 1 year in NZ).

So while now I would be more up on the ins and outs of contracts and what you can and can't do before I was just operating off common sense!

hfallada

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The rental law is very difficult, to be fair. There are a lot of twists and turns and interactions with leases.

I think it would help a bit if there were a standard specimen lease.

There is! The IPOA sells it and it covers 99.5% of issues people have with tenants and landlords on boards. Easons and most newsagents sell a similar one. Like they are pretty cheap. But most LLs dont use them, as its nearly not worthwhile to enforce them, as the PRTB process is too slow to follow. But I think they are good as they create a physiological commitment between LL and tenant. You are less likely to do a something wrong, if its in writing. Like in my last job, everyone used to foul around until they signed a contract. Even though the company policies were the same, they changed their behaviour.

I think the most shocking thing I have seen from my parents being LLs is that **** that some Irish people go on with. If a German sees a house on daft for €2000 a month, they see it as €2000 a month. An Irish person will waste your time viewing it and ask you whats the lowest you will take. Like are you serious? With the lack of housing in Dublin, you cant negotiate.

Also the colleges every year telling students to take pictures of the place, get a rentbook etc. 9 times out of 10, the LL is the person who gets screwed with tenants doing a runner, being late with rent, damages. You only ever heard of bad LLs and never bad tenants in the media

Clive

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Co-worker: "My landlord has raised the rent twice in the last year"
Me: "He can only raise it once in any twelve month period, and not above the market rate"

This is true in nearly all cases, but there are provisions to increase the rent in a fixed term lease in the RTA. If there is a substantial change in the property which would increase the market rate, or if the fixed term is for more than one year.

It's one that even well informed people can run afoul of, because it's so little known.

matrim

hfallada wrote: »

There is! The IPOA sells it and it covers 99.5% of issues people have with tenants and landlords on boards. Easons and most newsagents sell a similar one. Like they are pretty cheap. But most LLs dont use them, as its nearly not worthwhile to enforce them, as the PRTB process is too slow to follow. But I think they are good as they create a physiological commitment between LL and tenant. You are less likely to do a something wrong, if its in writing. Like in my last job, everyone used to foul around until they signed a contract. Even though the company policies were the same, they changed their behaviour.

I think the most shocking thing I have seen from my parents being LLs is that **** that some Irish people go on with. If a German sees a house on daft for €2000 a month, they see it as €2000 a month. An Irish person will waste your time viewing it and ask you whats the lowest you will take. Like are you serious? With the lack of housing in Dublin, you cant negotiate.

Also the colleges every year telling students to take pictures of the place, get a rentbook etc. 9 times out of 10, the LL is the person who gets screwed with tenants doing a runner, being late with rent, damages. You only ever heard of bad LLs and never bad tenants in the media

What's wrong with haggling. If you're a good tenant with good references you can still get money off even with the current state of the market. As a landlord if you don't like it just say. no that is the price

There are plenty of threads on here about bad tenants

syklops

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

A discussion at work the other day led me to think it might be an idea to have a thread on the general lack of knowledge of tenants rights/obligations, and landlords rights/obligations.

Hopefully there'll be some interesting examples and some general knowledge sharing without too much fighting. Try and say what is actually the correct thing to do as well.

My two examples:

Co-worker: "My landlord has raised the rent twice in the last year"
Me: "He can only raise it once in any twelve month period, and not above the market rate"
Co-worker: "Oh is that true? Well, anyway he wanted me to sign for another year but I managed to convince him to only let me sign for another six months then I'll move. But the new rent is quite high."
Me: ":eek:"

Issues: On a fixed term lease there cannot be a rent increase within the signed term. And when you're on a Part IV, only once in every twelve months. You also don't HAVE to sign for another twelve months or even six, just exercise your Part IV rights.

Another Co-worker: "Well I gave my landlord my 30 days notice, don't think he's too happy"
Me: "Are you on a fixed term lease, if you are you can't really do that unless he agrees or there is a break clause"
Co-worker: "What do you mean... well I signed something anyway"
Me: ":eek:"

Issues: You can't break a fixed term lease with 30 days notice, you can break it by mutual agreement, a break clause, or by reassigning the tenacy with the landlords agreement.

---

So post your examples of lack of comprehension amongst friends and co-workers. I'm amazed at the total lack of knowledge in the industry. When I was a tenant I didn't know what I now know. How do we change this? How do we better inform the entire marketplace?

With just under 2000 posts you are clearly new here. Word of warning! You shouldn't start threads focusing on the shortcomings of Irish Landlords. Its like going to the Hobbit Forum and starting a thread stating "Hobbits are ugly". Which they are not.

hfallada

matrim wrote: »

What's wrong with haggling. If you're a good tenant with good references you can still get money off even with the current state of the market. As a landlord if you don't like it just say. no that is the price

There are plenty of threads on here about bad tenants

Because the person has wasted your time viewing the place. You have had to give up your afternoon to show the place and then afterwards will you take €1.5k for it. If you can get someone at €2k why would waste your time showing it to someone at €1.5k. There is enough potential tenants in the current market to get a tenant to pay full price and have good references.

jmayo

syklops wrote: »

With just under 2000 posts you are clearly new here. Word of warning! You shouldn't start threads focusing on the shortcomings of Irish Landlords. Its like going to the Hobbit Forum and starting a thread stating "Hobbits are ugly". Which they are not.

But they haven't.
All the examples they gave was of the shortcomings of tenants and their lack of knowledge.

And of course another poster, probably a landlord, had a pop at tenants complaining about high rents and intimating they were all ignorant of their rights.

So far in my opinion this thread has been "focusing on the shortcomings of Irish" tenants.

matrim

hfallada wrote: »

Because the person has wasted your time viewing the place. You have had to give up your afternoon to show the place and then afterwards will you take €1.5k for it. If you can get someone at €2k why would waste your time showing it to someone at €1.5k. There is enough potential tenants in the current market to get a tenant to pay full price and have good references.

When you bought the house did you just walk up and say here's the 300000 it's advertised at? Or did you offer lower?

It's fairly common in most things to haggle. Asking for a €500 is probably very cheeky but I'd expect most people to be trying to get 50 or 100 off

drumswan

Agree there is a staggering lack of knowledge on both sides, must be a minefield being a landlord in this country. On the other hand, some of the threads from landlords on here are jaw dropping. You dont see the Motors forum full of people who opened garages asking how to fix cars or people on the Legal forum asking how to defend cases for their clients in court. How people can run a business with so little knowledge is baffling.

campingcarist

In general, I would agree with the OP.

Not having rented in Ireland since the 1970s, I decided to read up on the matter, the RTA 2004 and the PRTB website in particular as I believe in going to the source instead of being guided by "secondhand" sites like Citizens Information and Threshold. Though the RTA 2004 can be difficult to understand in many places, however, tenants and landlord obligations are very clear.

People new to renting (and many who have been doing so for some time) will find it difficult to get their head around Fixed term agreements, how Part 4 tenancies work, and periodic agreements plus the fact that rent agreements do not have to be written. Again, very few people, when presented with several pages of a contract, will bother to read it all before signing; the longer the contract, the less likely the tenant is to read it all and understand its implications.

Again, many people who become landlords (those accidental or unwilling landlords) seem to think that renting is just a simple matter of getting a tenant, sign a lease and wait for the money to come rolling in. They know little or nothing of the law of renting nor do they consider it as a business. They do not consider the possibility that their property could be damaged, that the tenant may fail to pay the rent, that there may be antisocial behaviour on their property nor have they read the RTA 2004, if they have heard of it.

Many of us will, at some stage of our lives will be involved in renting either as a tenant and/or landlord. Both will make mistakes and have to revert to the law. However, landlords must know the laws on renting and how to operate just as a restaurant owner, a shopkeeper, a creche owner, a hairdresser or any business owner. It is probably for this reason that the PRTB is reckoned to be tenant favourite. The landlord must know his business where as the tenant, the customer does not have to know all the laws. It is probably similar to buying a car from a dealer or privately. The dealer is responsible for what he sells whereas if you buy privately it is a case of buyer beware (not sure what the legal expression is).

MarkAnthony

drumswan wrote: »

How people can run a business with so little knowledge is baffling.

The majority of Irish business are run by small operations that wouldn't know their arse from their elbow when they set off. You learn by doing and taking proper advice. What surprises me is the amount of landlords that don't take proper advice.

Barely Hedged

hfallada wrote: »

There is! The IPOA sells it and it covers 99.5% of issues people have with tenants and landlords on boards. Easons and most newsagents sell a similar one. Like they are pretty cheap. But most LLs dont use them, as its nearly not worthwhile to enforce them, as the PRTB process is too slow to follow. But I think they are good as they create a physiological commitment between LL and tenant. You are less likely to do a something wrong, if its in writing. Like in my last job, everyone used to foul around until they signed a contract. Even though the company policies were the same, they changed their behaviour.

I think the most shocking thing I have seen from my parents being LLs is that **** that some Irish people go on with. If a German sees a house on daft for €2000 a month, they see it as €2000 a month. An Irish person will waste your time viewing it and ask you whats the lowest you will take. Like are you serious? With the lack of housing in Dublin, you cant negotiate.

Also the colleges every year telling students to take pictures of the place, get a rentbook etc. 9 times out of 10, the LL is the person who gets screwed with tenants doing a runner, being late with rent, damages. You only ever heard of bad LLs and never bad tenants in the media

We do have more of a culture of not taking the sale price as the final price in this country.

I think as a result Irish people are really crap at negotiating. The amount of times ive been in one where the person has been untruthful in what they want from the negotiation resulting in countless levels of frustration with the other party constantly changing their demands, getting thick head when you refuse their initial offer even though you give reasons for it or offer mad low bids that are not rooted in reality.

I remember one time i was selling a motorbike for 2.5k (and numerous other ones of the same type were listed for more) and I had 2 people interested in buying it at that price. I get a text off an interested party and then i reply saying i have two offers at 2.5k and he replies that i must be joking, would i not take 1.3k as it was a present for his son! Some way to open a negotiation

hfallada

matrim wrote: »

When you bought the house did you just walk up and say here's the 300000 it's advertised at? Or did you offer lower?

It's fairly common in most things to haggle. Asking for a €500 is probably very cheeky but I'd expect most people to be trying to get 50 or 100 off

Ask on the phone is there room to compromise. Dont waste my time, asking for something off the rent at a viewing, if I have 10 other people who are willing to take it at the asking price. Dont view it and then decide its outside of your budget. There is such demand in the city, you can pretty much get a reasonable rent with no issues

Tarzana2

hfallada wrote: »

Also the colleges every year telling students to take pictures of the place

What's wrong with this? Good advice, IMO, provided something in the photo proves the date.

athtrasna

The thing that has struck me from posts in this forum is the number of amateur landlords who think they don't have to pay income tax if the rent is equal to or less than their mortgage payment!

mikemac1

Was called up before Christmas about a potential rent increase. Being the son of a farmer I got my haggling cap on :cool: Though reading this thread some landlords seem to take haggling as an insult

Was told I could be served with my months notice there and then. A bit of bullying me thinks threating a tenant with that a few weeks before Christmas.

1 - you can't give verbal notice
2 - I'm here so long I'm entitled to longer

And this women has 20 properties :rolleyes:

I expect cowboy antics from amateurs but not from a professional landlord

mrsbyrne

Tenant: I asked the landlord 4 times by text message in the last 3 weeks to either repair or replace the broken shower. I've done it myself now and I know im within my perfect rights to simply deduct the expense from next months rent.

handlemaster

Tenant moved in one week : I don't like the kitchen I want you to change it !

mrsbyrne

Lots of amateur landlords in 2014: NPPR? What the hell?

The_Morrigan

Folks this is not a place to have a bitch - you know that this is against the charter.
If you want to highlight common errors and misunderstandings and provide a correction then fine, otherwise this thread will be locked up.

handlemaster

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Tenant: I asked the landlord 4 times by text message in the last 3 weeks to either repair or replace the broken shower. I've done it myself now and I know im within my perfect rights to simply deduct the expense from next months rent.

No your not

Graces7

Difficult and especially in rural areas. Many have a house that they think they may as well get some money from renting out. The one I had two rentals ago belonged to the son of the man i rented it from who was abroad. When he intended back I got an eviction notice. Illegal but they had no idea of that or of RTA. They would have gutted and refitted the house before living there. I have learned now that many rural landlords have no idea of the RTA. My present ll I started off the way I meant to go on and we had a sensible discussion and I printed out a very simple lease. He is not a business man. Previous tenants had cheated him and I assured him of the rights he has and promised to sort out any issues. Now he trusts me to contact eg the plumber directly. Needs good will on both sides and also responsible behaviour on both sides.

mrsbyrne

handlemaster wrote: »

No your not

Absolutely. Thats my point. It's one of the most common myths held by tenants who dont know yhrir they're right's

cerastes

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Tenant: I asked the landlord 4 times by text message in the last 3 weeks to either repair or replace the broken shower. I've done it myself now and I know im within my perfect rights to simply deduct the expense from next months rent.

No you're not

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Absolutely. Thats my point. It's one of the most common myths held by tenants who dont know yhrir they're right's

?
How is that your point? are you the tenant?
So you agree its not allowed, your initial post wasnt clear.

makeorbrake

Grolschevik wrote: »

Examples? Every second thread on this forum!

Exactly. If the op wants to put together a wiki or faq thread - that could be stickied, that would have value. otherwise, practically every thread in this section has an example.

AlekSmart

makeorbrake wrote: »

Exactly. If the op wants to put together a wiki or faq thread - that could be stickied, that would have value. otherwise, practically every thread in this section has an example.

Would today's Indo article be an example of such lack of knowledge on matters rental related ..????

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/mum-and-three-children-barricaded-in-home-close-to-dail-30916027.html

Around four years ago, Ms McDonald entered into a written lease with the previous owner of the building - her children's grandmother.

However, the property went into receivership and was eventually signed into the Rodolphus Allen Family Private Trust - a controversial property trust, run by Charles Allen, indebted people hoped would protect their assets.

So many questions..........

But while the family was away it is alleged that Charles Allen and several supporters of the trust unlawfully forced their way into the building. As a result the new owners secured a High Court injunction preventing unwarranted access.

One needs space for More questions ....

Currently,it appears that the media is the favoured route for those who need situations addresed quickly ?

Stench Blossoms

cerastes wrote: »

No you're not



?
How is that your point? are you the tenant?
So you agree its not allowed, your initial post wasnt clear.

Oh for god sake! mrsbyrne was giving an example of the lack of tenant knowledge!!