Is GSHP justified over ASHP at todays prices

bargaret

Really interesting if someone could post numbers for comparison..

For any of you installers out there or people in the trade.. For a typical 2500-3000sq ft house as a matter of interest what's the lowest annual bill you've seen on:
A) gshp
ashp

What's the typical difference in running costs? Someone must have some numbers

A supplier has told me that at most gshp is 100-150 euros less on the annual bills than ashp. Obviously trying to sell me an ashp so I'm looking for impartial advise!

Calahonda52

bargaret wrote: »

Really interesting if someone could post numbers for comparison..

For any of you installers out there or people in the trade.. For a typical 2500-3000sq ft house as a matter of interest what's the lowest annual bill you've seen on:
A) gshp
ashp

What's the typical difference in running costs? Someone must have some numbers

A supplier has told me that at most gshp is 100-150 euros less on the annual bills than ashp. Obviously trying to sell me an ashp so I'm looking for impartial advise!

Do u understand the technica difference between the two systems?
http://www.thegreenage.co.uk/air-source-heat-pumps-vs-ground-source-heat-pumps/

G will always gave cheaper annual costs than A because of the energy profile of the sources

In addition, this kit, like any kit, is priced at the economic margin that maximises profit.

G will always be cheaper than A because of the higher capital cost, otherwise it wouldn't sell.

What had not happened is that the A and G prices have not dropped in line with oil prices because they should have, the key pricing input is energy cost.
If u have the upfront mula and the room to do it properly, then G is the way to go.

bargaret

Calahonda52 wrote: »

G will always gave cheaper annual costs than A because of the energy profile of the sources
...
...
If u have the upfront mula and the room to do it properly, then G is the way to go.

Thanks calhonda, I totally understand that g is better and more efficient and the way to go and would love to put one in if it made financial sense

I need to understand just how much less expensive it will be to run per year so I can work If it does make sense based on the additional mortgage I will have to take out up front to pay for the more expensive unit and additional groundworks..

Like is it 150 euros cheaper to run per year or is it like 400..

For example say a 9 or 11kw thermia a2w that is very popular with one of the main suppliers vs a heliotherm g2w unit with similar heat output. What could I expect in difference in annual running costs ballpark?

Can't seem to find impartial figures for this kind of thing anywhere just what salesmen are telling me

KCross

bargaret wrote: »

Thanks calhonda, I totally understand that g is better and more efficient and the way to go and would love to put one in if it made financial sense

I need to understand just how much less expensive it will be to run per year so I can work If it does make sense based on the additional mortgage I will have to take out up front to pay for the more expensive unit and additional groundworks..

Like is it 150 euros cheaper to run per year or is it like 400..

For example say a 9 or 11kw thermia a2w that is very popular with one of the main suppliers vs a heliotherm g2w unit with similar heat output. What could I expect in difference in annual running costs ballpark?

Can't seem to find impartial figures for this kind of thing anywhere just what salesmen are telling me

bargaret
The figures you are looking for is exactly why I started this thread. General guideline or average type figures from end users is what new build people need to make a decision as sales people will just bamboozle with fine detail.

I would also add, the annual electricity cost is not just the only consideration. The maintenance and life expectancy of the unit should also be considered.

Again, if I get enough responses I will post it in a few weeks time.

KCross

dos30

We moved in Dec 2014 to a 2500sq ft house A2 rated.
Heat pump is Thermia Atec Air to Water 11kW
Airtightness q50 1.1 m3/hr/m2 @ 50 pascals
Heat demand of 16.1 kWh/m2.yr

Below is our heating stats for 13 months from Jan 2014 to Jan 2015
The first couple of months the house would've been drying out.
So adjusting for that we're looking at approx €60 for a years heating.
Bedrooms fluctuate between 18-20 degrees during the winter months.
Living space is warmer, probably 21-24 degrees depending on the weather.
We light a stove 5.5kw most evenings for a couple of hours.

Heating
Hours Run KwH Cost €
Jan 100 250 37.50
Feb 90 225 33.75
March 19 47.5 7.13
April 0 0 0.00
May 0 0 0.00
June 0 0 0.00
July 0 0 0.00
August 0 0 0.00
Sept 0 0 0.00
Oct 0 0 0.00
Nov 12 30 4.50
Dec 35 87.5 13.13
Jan 29 72.5 10.88

Total 285 712.5 106.88

tbukela

dos30 wrote: »

We moved in Dec 2014 to a 2500sq ft house A2 rated.

Do you have UFH throughout the house? What is that unit like for maintenance costs etc? Does it cost as well in cold weather as its specifications claim?

MENACE2010

Hi
I really don't get the "experts" on these forums .. I don't see myself as one but let me explain my view below

There are serious amount of variables at play when we are talking about heating cost and heating effort

- Size of the house
- Orientation of the house
- Insulation of the house
- Window surface and orientation of the windows
- Environment of where the house is
- Airtightness ( draft prevention is better word for it )

all of the above drives heating effort what in itself dictates what you heating system will cost and do ..

now I had a look at my electricity bill for the house .. ( we just are now 17 months in the house , with two winters nearly done) the average cost per month for the house "all in electricity" is 130 euro per month . The bill in the second year is higher because I let the system work away with out messing and the house is comfortable to live in.

also I don't have another bills .. no oil for example.. the only recurring cost is the filter for the HRV at the moment every 6 - 8 months that's all .

I'm delighted in my house and people can PM me and visit my house (co Clare) to have a walk around, we went with the air source as the cost of the GSHP was not something I wanted to entertain.

You cannot gauge from SqM and the pump on what the cost is going to be .. before I build I visited multiple sites , houses and talked to a lot of people an guess what in the end I figured it out . .its my house not my "lab" .. I got seriously burned financially with oil heated homes. .got fed up with bleeding oil pumps , ordering oil.. etc etc and wanted something easier.. hence the alternative energy route came up , we considered even LPG ..

If you are not sure whether the ground source / air source is your thing , stick with oil / LPG.. with a good boiler ( condensing) and good insulation you will be cheaper on install and running cost no doubt, but again its all depending on the first paragraph ..

I do agree don't go cheap on the systems you are going to use (you still get what you pay for) .. get a good installer with proper references and talk to people , talk to installers and talk to people that have them ( good installers will get you their customer references )

back to the day job now ..

KCross

MENACE2010 wrote: »

Hi
I really don't get the "experts" on these forums .. I don't see myself as one but let me explain my view below

There are serious amount of variables at play when we are talking about heating cost and heating effort

- Size of the house
- Orientation of the house
- Insulation of the house
- Window surface and orientation of the windows
- Environment of where the house is
- Airtightness ( draft prevention is better word for it )

all of the above drives heating effort what in itself dictates what you heating system will cost and do ..

now I had a look at my electricity bill for the house .. ( we just are now 17 months in the house , with two winters nearly done) the average cost per month for the house "all in electricity" is 130 euro per month . The bill in the second year is higher because I let the system work away with out messing and the house is comfortable to live in.

also I don't have another bills .. no oil for example.. the only recurring cost is the filter for the HRV at the moment every 6 - 8 months that's all .

I'm delighted in my house and people can PM me and visit my house (co Clare) to have a walk around, we went with the air source as the cost of the GSHP was not something I wanted to entertain.

You cannot gauge from SqM and the pump on what the cost is going to be .. before I build I visited multiple sites , houses and talked to a lot of people an guess what in the end I figured it out . .its my house not my "lab" .. I got seriously burned financially with oil heated homes. .got fed up with bleeding oil pumps , ordering oil.. etc etc and wanted something easier.. hence the alternative energy route came up , we considered even LPG ..

If you are not sure whether the ground source / air source is your thing , stick with oil / LPG.. with a good boiler ( condensing) and good insulation you will be cheaper on install and running cost no doubt, but again its all depending on the first paragraph ..

I do agree don't go cheap on the systems you are going to use (you still get what you pay for) .. get a good installer with proper references and talk to people , talk to installers and talk to people that have them ( good installers will get you their customer references )

back to the day job now ..

MENACE2010
Would you mind sharing what the purchase & install costs were for the ASHP?

You annual elec bill is €1560.... do you know how much of that is from the HP?

thanks, KCross

MENACE2010

Hi

the HP was 10K , all other elements around plumbing ,HRV installation ,under floor installation came in to another 16K on top of that ( incl VAT). .so around 26K everything to do with plumbing around the house

electricity usage .. I don't know as I still mean to get another clamp for the HP to measure its usage ..

dos30

tbukela wrote: »

Do you have UFH throughout the house? What is that unit like for maintenance costs etc? Does it cost as well in cold weather as its specifications claim?

Underfloor heating on the ground floor which is about 2/3 of the house. No heating upstairs.
Haven't had any issues with it so have no idea of maintenance costs.
It only really kicks in for cold weather so the figures I gave should give you an idea.
My hot water figures should give some idea as to Winter/Summer performance.
N.B We have a hot water circulating pump, that circulates the hot water throughout the house to provide instant hot water at the taps instead of waiting 5-10 seconds for the cold water from the pipes to flow out.
In Nov I increased the frequency this pump runs to practically 1/2 of every hour all day. Looks like this had a big impact on the stats.
I decreased the frequency last week to just have it when we normally use hot water; mornings, evenings etc..

Also I didn't actively monitor from May to Sept, it ran 200 hours in that period so I just averaged it between the months.

Hours Run KwH Cost €
Jan 58 145 21.75
Feb 55 137.5 20.63
March 60 150 22.50
April 45 112.5 16.88
May 40 100 15.00
June 40 100 15.00
July 40 100 15.00
August 40 100 15.00
Sept 40 100 15.00
Oct 50 125 18.75
Nov 62 155 23.25
Dec 85 212.5 31.88
Jan 98 245 36.75
713.00 1,782.50 267.38

Mick5883

bargaret wrote: »

Really interesting if someone could post numbers for comparison..

For any of you installers out there or people in the trade.. For a typical 2500-3000sq ft house as a matter of interest what's the lowest annual bill you've seen on:
A) gshp
ashp

What's the typical difference in running costs? Someone must have some numbers

A supplier has told me that at most gshp is 100-150 euros less on the annual bills than ashp. Obviously trying to sell me an ashp so I'm looking for impartial advise!

Just to give some idea for running cost of a gshp, we have a 11kw dimplex ground source, we fitted an electric meter to the machine to measure exactly what the unit used. (More people should do this to stop all the guess work) The house itself is 2000sqf, underfloor upstairs and down, 300 litre hot water tank and using duel tariff electric.

Costs came to around £600 a year on average

No idea of maintenance costs as nothing as gone wrong so far

Old Jim

Mick5883 wrote: »

Just to give some idea for running cost of a gshp, we have a 11kw dimplex ground source, we fitted an electric meter to the machine to measure exactly what the unit used. (More people should do this to stop all the guess work) The house itself is 2000sqf, underfloor upstairs and down, 300 litre hot water tank and using duel tariff electric.

Costs came to around £600 a year on average

No idea of maintenance costs as nothing as gone wrong so far

What type of electric meter did you fit? Did the electrician do this or could you do it yourself?

Mick5883

Old Jim wrote: »

What type of electric meter did you fit? Did the electrician do this or could you do it yourself?

Got the electrician to do it, it's a duel meter for night and day tariff, manufacturer is sangamo schlumberger

galwaytt

KCross wrote: »

MENACE2010
Would you mind sharing what the purchase & install costs were for the ASHP?

You annual elec bill is €1560.... do you know how much of that is from the HP?

thanks, KCross

Reading all of the posts, and the above, I'm more than intrigued by the electricity bills people are quoting.

If I take the above bill, that works out at €260 per 2-month bill.

Now, I have a (relatively) new, modern, well insulated house. I have no power showers, no immersion, most of my lights are LED. I have LPG boiler on a buffer tank with UFH throughout. My solar provides my DHW for over 6 months of the year on it's own. I have HRV. My house is a TF system, so not a cold house.

Yet, I struggle to get my electricity bill below €240 per 2-month. And even at that, only €170 is actual electricity - the rest is standing charges, night rate meter rental, PSO, carbon taxes etc etc.

So, not that I don't believe the numbers posted above, but how is your electricity consumption - in total, let alone to include a GSHP/ASHP - so low ?

Confused, I am !!

KCross

galwaytt wrote: »

Reading all of the posts, and the above, I'm more than intrigued by the electricity bills people are quoting.

If I take the above bill, that works out at €260 per 2-month bill.

Now, I have a (relatively) new, modern, well insulated house. I have no power showers, no immersion, most of my lights are LED. I have LPG boiler on a buffer tank with UFH throughout. My solar provides my DHW for over 6 months of the year on it's own. I have HRV. My house is a TF system, so not a cold house.

Yet, I struggle to get my electricity bill below €240 per 2-month. And even at that, only €170 is actual electricity - the rest is standing charges, night rate meter rental, PSO, carbon taxes etc etc.

So, not that I don't believe the numbers posted above, but how is your electricity consumption - in total, let alone to include a GSHP/ASHP - so low ?

Confused, I am !!

galwaytt

For me the standing charge and PSO and VAT on those is over €300 for the year. I'd presume everyone is much the same give or take €50.

For you to burn over another €1k on just lights/TV/appliances suggests there is something else causing your high elec bill. €1k would not be normal, i'd say, for those items.

Maybe the pumps that drive your solar, pump for the LPG burner, inefficient appliances, TV's and set-top boxes on standby 24/7 etc

Time to invest in one of those energy monitors I'd say and see what energy you are using, particularly at night, when you expect it to be close to nothing.

KCross

galwaytt

KCross wrote: »

galwaytt

For me the standing charge and PSO and VAT on those is over €300 for the year. I'd presume everyone is much the same give or take €50.

For you to burn over another €1k on just lights/TV/appliances suggests there is something else causing your high elec bill. €1k would not be normal, i'd say, for those items.

Maybe the pumps that drive your solar, pump for the LPG burner, inefficient appliances, TV's and set-top boxes on standby 24/7 etc

Time to invest in one of those energy monitors I'd say and see what energy you are using, particularly at night, when you expect it to be close to nothing.

KCross

I think you're right: some homework is in order - got a monitor in mind that is reliable ?

KCross

I've used a few. Airtricity sent me a free one when I signed up with them. Not sure if they still have that offer or not. You can see what power is being used at anytime for the entire house. So, as appliances turn on/off you can see it on the meter.

Some others are efergy.com which is also one of those clamp type ones that you could stick on your pumps.

If you want one that monitors one plug at a time look at energenie

There are loads of them out there.

As a reference, if I take out the heat pump and standing charges I'm using about €700 for everything else.

just do it

dos30 wrote: »

We have a hot water circulating pump, that circulates the hot water throughout the house to provide instant hot water at the taps instead of waiting 5-10 seconds for the cold water from the pipes to flow out.
In Nov I increased the frequency this pump runs to practically 1/2 of every hour all day. Looks like this had a big impact on the stats.
I decreased the frequency last week to just have it when we normally use hot water; mornings, evenings etc..

I'm interested to hear more about this. Did it cost much and are you happy with it? Also did you insulate hot water pipes?

0lddog

WRT the original topic ( Is GSHP justified over ASHP at todays prices )

For sure ASHP dont like humid weather around 0C and can be very inefficient in such conditions.

Lots of new build domestic estates dont have room for a ground loop & arent serviced by gas.

So its Hobsons Choice for them. ( Thanks to the new regs ? )

Condenser

0lddog wrote: »

WRT the original topic ( Is GSHP justified over ASHP at todays prices )

For sure ASHP dont like humid weather around 0C and can be very inefficient in such conditions.

Lots of new build domestic estates dont have room for a ground loop & arent serviced by gas.

So its Hobsons Choice for them. ( Thanks to the new regs ? )

Nothing stopping them using a small borehole and having the double benefit of lower running costs and no external noise. I doubt anyone would worry about paying 2-3k extra for a house once they know that their estate won't sound like and airport and their running costs will be minimal.

0lddog

Ideally.

Meanwhile back in the real world, cant see a builder putting up a large scheme ( of mostly terraced ) houses wanting to encourage an optional extra cost that the average buyer wont understand &/or care about.

Condenser

0lddog wrote: »

Ideally.

Meanwhile back in the real world, cant see a builder putting up a large scheme ( of mostly terraced ) houses wanting to encourage an optional extra cost that the average buyer wont understand &/or care about.

They'll care when they can't sleep at night

exaisle

galwaytt wrote: »

I think you're right: some homework is in order - got a monitor in mind that is reliable ?

@galwaytt- just wondering if you discovered the source of your high-ish electricity bills?

I'd also be curious to know what the seasonal variation in your electricity is like? Are the mid-summer bills significant?

eoinvden

KCross wrote: »

True, to a point!

If you look at my original post you'll see where I'm coming from.

If you take a newbie, building their first house, learning about renewables for the first time, they will have lots of information to absorb and sales men giving conflicting figures, prices, COP's etc... its a lot to take in and difficult to decide which is the one for them. The simple answer is to just tell them go hire a professional to give them the info but ultimately they still have to decide for themselves. Getting true life examples to compare against is better than any COP figure in a sales leaflet. You also have the variable of a cowboy installer... I cant address that either.

There seems to be(based on my op) a perception that ASHP is the way to go because its cheaper to buy day one, but no long term figures to validate it one way or the other.

Your example gives the wildly different ends of the spectrum of what responses I might get but I'm hoping the reponses wont be that different. My assumption(and I'll have to wait and see) is that most people who install HP's(AS or GS) are somewhat informed and will have "reasonable" insulation and build structure. I wont know until I see the responses.

What I'm trying to achieve is to give some indicative figures from the ordinary unbiased punters out there who have these systems in their homes. The more responses I get the more valid the data will be. If I only get a few responses then its trash.

If I get any reasonable amount of responses I'll post it and you can by all means trash its validity then!

Hi KCross
This is exactly the position I'm in at the moment.
We're doing a new build in Galway. 1st build. Going to be family home. Trying to decide between GSHP and ASHP. Have it reduced down to 2 pumps from 2 different companies.
Going for UFH throughout our 310sqm 2 story house. Energy rating planning on being A2

ASHP
11kw
300 litre water cylinder
standard UFH
Cost 22500 including vat
including installation of system and remaining plumbing(i.e. no extra plumbing costs) PC sum for this is 6500+VAT
COP 5.5
Running costs according to supplier estimated at 650/annum
warranty 7YRS!!


GSHP
9.5kw with horizontal collection. direct evaporating
500litre water cylinder with constant fresh water( not stored in cylinder) i.e. heat exchange to fresh water
Higher spec UFH 17mm pipes with 100mm centres
COP 5.77
Cost 22900 including installation of heating system only
extras would be additional plumbing costs (generous estimate 5000)(maybe i'm way out here)
digger hire and sand for horizontal collection site estimate 1200
running costs according to supplier 500/annum
warranty 5yrs


So the bottom line is there is approx 7k in the difference between initial set up costs and projected running costs are very similar. the payback is over 30 yrs. However will I need a new ASHP sooner than a GSHP and will maintenance costs differ.
Had initially decided on the GSHP but the 7 yr warranty and cheaper setup is tempting me in the ASHP setup.
Please help!!
Eoin

BarneyMc

eoinvden wrote: »

So the bottom line is there is approx 7k in the difference between initial set up costs and projected running costs are very similar. the payback is over 30 yrs. However will I need a new ASHP sooner than a GSHP and will maintenance costs differ.
Had initially decided on the GSHP but the 7 yr warranty and cheaper setup is tempting me in the ASHP setup.
Please help!!
Eoin

I feel your pain! The GS v AS battle rages on...

One question, do you have to bundle the UFH into your HP quote? Anyway if the ASHP had the greater spec UFH setup (that the GSHP has) then the running costs difference would be further reduced.

Why burden yourself with a 7K clawback that you may never achieve. Even if you do then how much do you think you'll save? There are other considerations also like the increasing popularity of PV cells to generate electricity and power your HP. How about putting your 7K into that?

Also, when you say you'll have to replace the ASHP earlier this may be true but by then the efficiencies of HPs should be much better - you'll be on a much more efficient system sooner rather than seeing out the final years of your (then outdated) GSHP. It's like spending €400 now and €400 again in 5 years for a decent laptop OR spending €800 now for a top of the range one and hoping it will last 10 years.

My ASHP supplier said he will replace the refrigerant next year with a much more efficient one so they are 'upgradable' to some extent. He supplies both GS and AS and recommended the AS (ok this may not mean anything but it is some reassurance).

This is probably not the technical answer you might have wanted but, for better or for worse, it's the way I've justified going with an ASHP. Best of luck!

just do it

eoinvden wrote: »

Hi KCross
This is exactly the position I'm in at the moment.
We're doing a new build in Galway. 1st build. Going to be family home. Trying to decide between GSHP and ASHP. Have it reduced down to 2 pumps from 2 different companies.
Going for UFH throughout our 310sqm 2 story house. Energy rating planning on being A2

ASHP
11kw
300 litre water cylinder
standard UFH
Cost 22500 including vat
including installation of system and remaining plumbing(i.e. no extra plumbing costs) PC sum for this is 6500+VAT
COP 5.5
Running costs according to supplier estimated at 650/annum
warranty 7YRS!!


GSHP
9.5kw with horizontal collection. direct evaporating
500litre water cylinder with constant fresh water( not stored in cylinder) i.e. heat exchange to fresh water
Higher spec UFH 17mm pipes with 100mm centres
COP 5.77
Cost 22900 including installation of heating system only
extras would be additional plumbing costs (generous estimate 5000)(maybe i'm way out here)
digger hire and sand for horizontal collection site estimate 1200
running costs according to supplier 500/annum
warranty 5yrs


So the bottom line is there is approx 7k in the difference between initial set up costs and projected running costs are very similar. the payback is over 30 yrs. However will I need a new ASHP sooner than a GSHP and will maintenance costs differ.
Had initially decided on the GSHP but the 7 yr warranty and cheaper setup is tempting me in the ASHP setup.
Please help!!
Eoin

With a payback of 30 years neither seem attractive. Why not put up cheap PV panels to satisfy part L and some of your heating and hot water requirements? Worth costing that option anyway.

hexosan

BarneyMc wrote: »

I feel your pain! The GS v AS battle rages on...

One question, do you have to bundle the UFH into your HP quote? Anyway if the ASHP had the greater spec UFH setup (that the GSHP has) then the running costs difference would be further reduced.

Why burden yourself with a 7K clawback that you may never achieve. Even if you do then how much do you think you'll save? There are other considerations also like the increasing popularity of PV cells to generate electricity and power your HP. How about putting your 7K into that?

Also, when you say you'll have to replace the ASHP earlier this may be true but by then the efficiencies of HPs should be much better - you'll be on a much more efficient system sooner rather than seeing out the final years of your (then outdated) GSHP. It's like spending €400 now and €400 again in 5 years for a decent laptop OR spending €800 now for a top of the range one and hoping it will last 10 years.

My ASHP supplier said he will replace the refrigerant next year with a much more efficient one so they are 'upgradable' to some extent. He supplies both GS and AS and recommended the AS (ok this may not mean anything but it is some reassurance).

This is probably not the technical answer you might have wanted but, for better or for worse, it's the way I've justified going with an ASHP. Best of luck!

I really like this explanation

Condenser

BarneyMc wrote: »

I feel your pain! The GS v AS battle rages on...

One question, do you have to bundle the UFH into your HP quote? Anyway if the ASHP had the greater spec UFH setup (that the GSHP has) then the running costs difference would be further reduced.

Why burden yourself with a 7K clawback that you may never achieve. Even if you do then how much do you think you'll save? There are other considerations also like the increasing popularity of PV cells to generate electricity and power your HP. How about putting your 7K into that?

Also, when you say you'll have to replace the ASHP earlier this may be true but by then the efficiencies of HPs should be much better - you'll be on a much more efficient system sooner rather than seeing out the final years of your (then outdated) GSHP. It's like spending €400 now and €400 again in 5 years for a decent laptop OR spending €800 now for a top of the range one and hoping it will last 10 years.

My ASHP supplier said he will replace the refrigerant next year with a much more efficient one so they are 'upgradable' to some extent. He supplies both GS and AS and recommended the AS (ok this may not mean anything but it is some reassurance).

This is probably not the technical answer you might have wanted but, for better or for worse, it's the way I've justified going with an ASHP. Best of luck!

Barney, as a refrigeration engineer with close to 20yrs experience I can tell you now that your ashp supplier is blowing smoke up your ass. There is no such thing as a replacement refrigerant that improves efficiency. The only replacement gases available are drop ins for refrigerants that have been banned and they are rarely more efficient. The idea that you can upgrade your gas to improve matters is laughable and only goes to show the lengths that some will go to to close a sale. Changing for any refrigerant bar a drop in would mean changing parts as it is rare that two refrigerants work at the same pressures and enthalphy. Id do alot more research if I were you.

BarneyMc

Condenser wrote: »

Barney, as a refrigeration engineer with close to 20yrs experience I can tell you now that your ashp supplier is blowing smoke up your ass. There is no such thing as a replacement refrigerant that improves efficiency. The only replacement gases available are drop ins for refrigerants that have been banned and they are rarely more efficient. The idea that you can upgrade your gas to improve matters is laughable and only goes to show the lengths that some will go to to close a sale. Changing for any refrigerant bar a drop in would mean changing parts as it is rare that two refrigerants work at the same pressures and enthalphy. Id do alot more research if I were you.

OK, thanks, will be speaking with him during the week and will demand a clearer explanation.

FiOT

Reading this thread with interest as we are currently trying to decide what heating system to install in our new 2600sqft build. We haven't started yet, hopefully early in the new year but want to have everything decided beforehand.

I have had a few people email me about GSHP and all seem delighted with their decision to install it. For houses similar to mine in size but built to regulations 5/6 years ago, I have received reports of €1500-€1800 a year for all energy bills (heating, energy, hot water). I've been sent breakdowns of bills, units used and meter readings and all seem to show an efficient and affordable system.

I thought I had my mind made up, now I've found this and I'm all confused again!

Tommyboy08

eoinvden wrote: »

Hi KCross
This is exactly the position I'm in at the moment.
We're doing a new build in Galway. 1st build. Going to be family home. Trying to decide between GSHP and ASHP. Have it reduced down to 2 pumps from 2 different companies.
Going for UFH throughout our 310sqm 2 story house. Energy rating planning on being A2

ASHP
11kw
300 litre water cylinder
standard UFH
Cost 22500 including vat
including installation of system and remaining plumbing(i.e. no extra plumbing costs) PC sum for this is 6500+VAT
COP 5.5
Running costs according to supplier estimated at 650/annum
warranty 7YRS!!


GSHP
9.5kw with horizontal collection. direct evaporating
500litre water cylinder with constant fresh water( not stored in cylinder) i.e. heat exchange to fresh water
Higher spec UFH 17mm pipes with 100mm centres
COP 5.77
Cost 22900 including installation of heating system only
extras would be additional plumbing costs (generous estimate 5000)(maybe i'm way out here)
digger hire and sand for horizontal collection site estimate 1200
running costs according to supplier 500/annum
warranty 5yrs


So the bottom line is there is approx 7k in the difference between initial set up costs and projected running costs are very similar. the payback is over 30 yrs. However will I need a new ASHP sooner than a GSHP and will maintenance costs differ.
Had initially decided on the GSHP but the 7 yr warranty and cheaper setup is tempting me in the ASHP setup.
Please help!!
Eoin

Sorry eoin did you get any specs off your air source supplier as I don't believe theirs any unit currently on the market with a cop as high as 5.5, or is this a typo and it's really 4.5 which would be more realistic,
Just for yourself and others out there to know there are a few certain companies making wild claims at the moment and so far I have not found any evidence or truth to these supposed facts

Buyer beware

eoinvden

Thanks Tommy.
Ya have discovered this just today. So think am going to go GS . Just ironing out a few details

wofman27

Im currently in the process of a new build in Donegal - 2206sq ft. Block work at the square, looking to have house closed in by end of November. Been researching air to water and Geothermal to death these past few months.
Ive managed to narrow down to one supplier who does Air to Water and Geothermal

The Geothermal for supply and installation is coming in at €16,514 for ground collector -
this is not possible due to ground conditions, so id need to get a borehole done - extra €3000 approx

The Air to water comes in at €15,855 for supply and install. Although i have to install PV Panels or Solar Panels to comply with part L
Got quotes varying from €3k - €4k, bringing it closer to €19k

Has anyone found an Air to water system that doesn't require a pv or solar panel as back to help it comply with part L?

air

If it's only 4k extra for ground source then it's a no brainer to go for it. You'd spend that replacing the outdoor unit in a few years and you should have lower bills for the lifetime of the system also.

galwaytt

wofman27 wrote: »

Has anyone found an Air to water system that doesn't require a pv or solar panel as back to help it comply with part L?

.....it's not the choice of HP that's making you add panels. It's the BER of the building, which includes insulation and especially airtightness etc, coupled with the design.

sydthebeat

wofman27 wrote: »

Im currently in the process of a new build in Donegal - 2206sq ft. Block work at the square, looking to have house closed in by end of November. Been researching air to water and Geothermal to death these past few months.
Ive managed to narrow down to one supplier who does Air to Water and Geothermal

The Geothermal for supply and installation is coming in at €16,514 for ground collector -
this is not possible due to ground conditions, so id need to get a borehole done - extra €3000 approx

The Air to water comes in at €15,855 for supply and install. Although i have to install PV Panels or Solar Panels to comply with part L
Got quotes varying from €3k - €4k, bringing it closer to €19k

Has anyone found an Air to water system that doesn't require a pv or solar panel as back to help it comply with part L?

in my experience, for houses around 2200 sq ft, youd need to be using a A2W HP with a SPF in the region of 500% to go without having to supplement with renewables. The only one thats in this region on teh HRAP database is the 'neura' range
http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/HARP_Database/Heat_Pumps/?f=1&type=Air+to+water

you have more of a choice in the geothermal HPs as there are more rated over 500% SPF

those are high quotes, is the UFH system included in both?

wofman27

Hey Sydthebeat

Thats everything included, system up and running, UFH included in both.

wofman27

Another question on Geothermal ground collector.
My house is situated 200m from the beach, I've a large field that sits roughly 20 feet below the base of our site. The ground is sand based - the field, separates a lake and the sea, the sand seems moist, and theres a fresh water well that has been covered up for years. My question is would a horizontal garden collector work in these conditions, also taking into consideration that the house is situated on a sloped site, 20 feet above the field in question.

Any feedback or advise would be greatly appreciated