Are school making up for the closure due to red weather alert?

acequion

As one of the schools which closed on 15th January in anticipation of the storm that never was, the news is that we must now make up the lost time.

While I'm well aware that this provision for unforeseen closures came in during Croke Park 1 and as a result of extended closures during severe winters some years back,to my knowledge,this is the first such instance of unforeseen closure due to inclement weather. It is fairly vaguely worded in the DES website:http://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/School-Holidays/ so I'd be very interested to know how other affected schools are dealing with this.

heldel00

Back in 2010 we had to close three days early for Christmas because toilets etc were frozen. My principal in all his genius decided we should voluntarily cut our Christmas holidays short and come back three days early!
We were one of the only schools in the country to do this (it wasn't compulsory at that time) but because of the number that had closed that year decision was made that days had to be made up from then on.
I could be wrong but I think that the days missed are supposed to be taken off Easter holidays?
(As a staff we have now decided that the three teachers living closest to the school will ski, swim or parachute in if necessary so as to make sure the school is counted as being open in future.)

Conelan

Hi there, we too closed on the grounds of "better being safe than sorry"! We have had to close twice in the last 3 years and we've become very careful in the language we use when referring to these closures. Yes we will certainly make up for the "Time" missed out on but that doesn't necessarily mean we will be changing our calendar and opening during Easter or anything like that. This is from Dept Circular 16/2014 and note they call them GUIDELINES! Up to each school to make their own of them.

"Contingency arrangements in the event of unforeseen school closures
The parties have recognised that there is a need to include greater flexibility and to provide for contingency arrangements within the standardised school year to deal with unforeseen school closures.
Guidance for schools in relation to making up for time lost due to unforeseen school closures is included at Appendix B of this circular. This guidance sets out a structured approach to determining the measures to be put in place to make up for time lost. The guidance provides that subject to consensus at local level, any changes to normal practice that can be made to address the shortfalls should be put in place. Examples of how this might be achieved include:
 prioritising tuition over other non-tuition activities  reducing where possible the length of mock/house examinations  consideration of whether learning in the classroom should be prioritised over school tours, etc  in the case of second level schools ensuring examination classes attend all classes to the end of May.
If necessary, the school authority should then identify any available discretionary days that the school had planned to close that could be made available to make up for time lost.
Where the above measures are not considered adequate, contingency arrangements to make up for time lost due to extensive or prolonged unforeseen school closures may now also include either or both of the following:

3
 The February mid-term break may be reduced by up to three days subject to the requirement that all schools must be closed on the Thursday and Friday of the week in which this break falls.
 The Easter break may be reduced by up to three days by the school remaining open up to and including the Wednesday immediately preceding the Easter weekend. All schools must be closed on the Thursday and Friday immediately preceding the Easter weekend and remain closed for the remainder of the Easter break as set out in Appendix A of this circular.
The school authority must also take into account the need to provide adequate notice of any changes to the school calendar to pupils, parents and staff. Each school authority shall also provide to parents, at the beginning of each year, a calendar which includes details of school closures. It should be made clear that the calendar could be subject to change as part of contingency arrangements to make up for time lost due to unforeseen school closures."

killbillvol2

Conelan wrote: »

Hi there, we too closed on the grounds of "better being safe than sorry"! We have had to close twice in the last 3 years and we've become very careful in the language we use when referring to these closures. Yes we will certainly make up for the "Time" missed out on but that doesn't necessarily mean we will be changing our calendar and opening during Easter or anything like that. This is from Dept Circular 16/2014 and note they call them GUIDELINES! Up to each school to make their own of them.

"Contingency arrangements in the event of unforeseen school closures
The parties have recognised that there is a need to include greater flexibility and to provide for contingency arrangements within the standardised school year to deal with unforeseen school closures.
Guidance for schools in relation to making up for time lost due to unforeseen school closures is included at Appendix B of this circular. This guidance sets out a structured approach to determining the measures to be put in place to make up for time lost. The guidance provides that subject to consensus at local level, any changes to normal practice that can be made to address the shortfalls should be put in place. Examples of how this might be achieved include:
 prioritising tuition over other non-tuition activities  reducing where possible the length of mock/house examinations  consideration of whether learning in the classroom should be prioritised over school tours, etc  in the case of second level schools ensuring examination classes attend all classes to the end of May.
If necessary, the school authority should then identify any available discretionary days that the school had planned to close that could be made available to make up for time lost.
Where the above measures are not considered adequate, contingency arrangements to make up for time lost due to extensive or prolonged unforeseen school closures may now also include either or both of the following:

3
 The February mid-term break may be reduced by up to three days subject to the requirement that all schools must be closed on the Thursday and Friday of the week in which this break falls.
 The Easter break may be reduced by up to three days by the school remaining open up to and including the Wednesday immediately preceding the Easter weekend. All schools must be closed on the Thursday and Friday immediately preceding the Easter weekend and remain closed for the remainder of the Easter break as set out in Appendix A of this circular.
The school authority must also take into account the need to provide adequate notice of any changes to the school calendar to pupils, parents and staff. Each school authority shall also provide to parents, at the beginning of each year, a calendar which includes details of school closures. It should be made clear that the calendar could be subject to change as part of contingency arrangements to make up for time lost due to unforeseen school closures."

The part in bold allows enough leeway to make up time.

The problem arises when some of <snip> those who have somehow been appointed principals either can't comprehend these options, bow to the pressure from a vocal minority of parents, bow to the voice of fear in their own tiny minds or just go on a power trip and decide to f*** up everyone else's holidays <snip>.

killbillvol2

heldel00 wrote: »

Back in 2010 we had to close three days early for Christmas because toilets etc were frozen. My principal in all his genius decided we should voluntarily cut our Christmas holidays short and come back three days early!
We were one of the only schools in the country to do this (it wasn't compulsory at that time) but because of the number that had closed that year decision was made that days had to be made up from then on.
I could be wrong but I think that the days missed are supposed to be taken off Easter holidays?
(As a staff we have now decided that the three teachers living closest to the school will ski, swim or parachute in if necessary so as to make sure the school is counted as being open in future.)

Same here.

endakenny

killbillvol2 wrote: »

The part in bold allows enough leeway to make up time.

The problem arises when some of <snip> those who have somehow been appointed principals either can't comprehend these options, bow to the pressure from a vocal minority of parents, bow to the voice of fear in their own tiny minds or just go on a power trip and decide to f*** up everyone else's holidays <snip>.

Then why doesn't the majority of parents make its voice heard via the parents' representatives at Board of Management meetings? That is what these meetings are for.

If a principal decides that days will be made up in the run-up to the Easter holidays, will he or she still permit parents who have booked vacations for that planned fortnight off to take their children out of school for those three days (the days before Holy Thursday and Good Friday)?

seavill

Just to clarify That is not what board of management meetings are for. Parents are represented by the parents council. Parent reps and teacher reps on board of managemebt are there to make decisions for the best of the school not to bring issues on behalf of parents. Any communication between parents and the board should go through the secretary of the board, the principal, not the parent members

acequion

killbillvol2's post is the closest to my fears,ie prinipals who want to be the best boys in the class and get heads patted by the DES.

I would have also thought that there were enough possibilities suggested above to render a one day closure a thing of nothing,so I was very surprised when we went back yesterday to hear that it's an issue.

What I'd like to know is what is happening in the many other schools which closed on Thursday? Is making up the day an issue and if so how will it be done? If,for example it can be done in such a way that nobody has to do a day of the holidays,how is this presented to the DES?

@Conelon, what did ye do to make up for those other closures and what are ye going to do this time?

Thanks for replies,folks.

TheDriver

if the day closure is a thing of nothing, then unfortunately closures will start to become common when there is no reason. Currently schools only close when absolutely necessary because time must be made up.
However as we dig out circulars, how many schools followed the circular about no more half days just before the Christmas holidays? I think I only know of 4 yet if we are to follow circulars as they are written, we should all have been open.........(p.s. I like my half days like everyone else.......)

acequion

TheDriver wrote: »

if the day closure is a thing of nothing, then unfortunately closures will start to become common when there is no reason. Currently schools only close when absolutely necessary because time must be made up.
However as we dig out circulars, how many schools followed the circular about no more half days just before the Christmas holidays? I think I only know of 4 yet if we are to follow circulars as they are written, we should all have been open.........(p.s. I like my half days like everyone else.......)

TheDriver, it is a thing of nothing in the sense that tuition time is constantly being interfered with for all sorts of reasons and classes are lost which nobody ever clamours to have made up.Yet these weather closures must be made up!!!! I don't see the logic there and yes I am well aware that it is a crazy directive which came in during CP1. Also,closures which are"absolutely necessary" according to whom? Met Eireann? Because the teachers in the affected schools had no say in the matter and in my part of the country the storm was no more than a bit of strong wind!

But I would hugely appreciate answers to my specific questions from anybody out there please? As in,how will other schools make up the time if they don't give up a day during midterm or Easter? And how is such a provision presented to the DES to satisfy them?

Also,would anybody know what happens in a similar situation in the private sector? For example if a permanent employee cannot report for work because his place of employment is closed due to unforeseen circumstances,is this employee still paid for that day /days? Is there an obligation to make up lost working time? I know you can't compare like with like here,but just out of interest.

TheDriver

I think the Dept washed their hands of it by not telling schools to close but advising it to be thought about. Can I ask also what happens in your school if a teacher cant make it in due to weather but school is open??

doc_17

heldel00 wrote: »

Back in 2010 we had to close three days early for Christmas because toilets etc were frozen. My principal in all his genius decided we should voluntarily cut our Christmas holidays short and come back three days early!
We were one of the only schools in the country to do this (it wasn't compulsory at that time) but because of the number that had closed that year decision was made that days had to be made up from then on.
I could be wrong but I think that the days missed are supposed to be taken off Easter holidays?
(As a staff we have now decided that the three teachers living closest to the school will ski, swim or parachute in if necessary so as to make sure the school is counted as being open in future.)

Return 3 days early? I would have told him/her to get lost. An absolutely wretched decision.

solerina

doc_17 wrote: »

Return 3 days early? I would have told him/her to get lost. An absolutely wretched decision.

Unfortunately if my staff room is anything to go by this wouldn't happen. As more and more (almost all) of the long serving staff have retired they have been replaced by 'yes sir, yes sir...what else can I do for you sir' types. Don't get me wrong I see where these young teachers on low hours are coming from but it really doesn't help overall when none of them will speak up or even show an opinion at staff meetings...we would def end up back 3 days early too if he suggested it !!

endakenny

killbillvol2 wrote: »

The part in bold allows enough leeway to make up time.

The problem arises when some of <snip> those who have somehow been appointed principals either can't comprehend these options, bow to the pressure from a vocal minority of parents, bow to the voice of fear in their own tiny minds or just go on a power trip and decide to f*** up everyone else's holidays <snip>.

Have there been any cases in which a decision to open the school from Monday to Wednesday in the week before Easter to make up for lost days has interfered with parents' holiday plans (or teachers' holidays plans, for that matter)?

heldel00

doc_17 wrote: »

Return 3 days early? I would have told him/her to get lost. An absolutely wretched decision.

It really was a stupid decision he made. Plus one teacher was abroad on holidays and one was away on a prebooked trip down the country so the rest of us felt very hard done by. (Primary school. Smaller staff in case I forgot to say that.)
It also did not go down very well with the other schools in the locality!

newholland

<snip>

Obviously you have a chip on your shoulder about management. Think you should be banned for a comment like that

<mod> The post was already reported by you. No need to discuss it on thread.

newholland

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Same here.

How can staff decide to open or close. I think if a school had opened during a red alert against the advice from the Department of there was an accident there would be questions to be answered.

Conelan

acequion wrote: »

@Conelon, what did ye do to make up for those other closures and what are ye going to do this time?
.

What Killbill highlighted above is what we did. We prioritised tuition over non tuition activities, that was no big deal and no one outside the school would have really noticed but small things like pushing sports day into sports afternoon and doing an hour of it after school gave the public an example of how we were doing it. We also considered dropping the school tour. Those who were shouting loudest for extra day to be worked weren't long getting in a twist when our principal explained that we were abiding by the dept's circular and that this was one of its first suggestions. Suddenly those doing the shouting realised one of their favourite days of the year when their little darlings are taken off for nearly 12 hours might be in jeopardy!! In the end we compromised and did local short tours and put in a couple of hours in class in the morning before going. We're primary by the way, so we were looking to make up 5 hrs of class time. It was presented by principal to Board of Man. in that way i.e Sports Day change regains us 1.5 hrs, School Tour Day change regains us 2.5hrs. etc. In fact Board weren't too exercised by the issue at all and were just glad everyone was safe and alive (our days closed were weather related)
There was no presenting anything to the Dept. Thankfully our Principal is of the opinion that you don't go picking up the phone to ask them this that and the other. (it seems there is some form you can go and get and fill out your confession) The Board has the job of running the school and it really is a Board decision as to how any time missed is made up. The Dept can announce whatever they like from on high but the Board makes the decisions. The Dept are only too happy to leave it to Boards when the "proverbial" hits the fan, so it's the same here.

heldel00

newholland wrote: »

How can staff decide to open or close. I think if a school had opened during a red alert against the advice from the Department of there was an accident there would be questions to be answered.

Department cover themselves by advising closure if necessary. individual decisions are made by the BOM of the school and repercussions lie with them

acequion

newholland wrote: »

Obviously you have a chip on your shoulder about management. Think you should be banned for a comment like that

Did you ever hear of freedom of speech? You obviously don't think much of school staff views judging by your subsequent post.

That poster is telling it exactly as it is. While many school managers respect their teachers and try to protect what is left of tattered working conditions,there are many more,unfortunately, who are more interested in pleasing the Dept / parents /or their own egos.

heldel00 wrote: »

Department cover themselves by advising closure if necessary. individual decisions are made by the BOM of the school and repercussions lie with them

They do,but they [Department] are the ones who issued the directive about making up for lost time and in so doing, caused more hassle and resentment. Especially, given that many teachers would spend such days working at home,catching up on corrections etc.

acequion

TheDriver wrote: »

I think the Dept washed their hands of it by not telling schools to close but advising it to be thought about. Can I ask also what happens in your school if a teacher cant make it in due to weather but school is open??

I would imagine it would be counted as a self certified day for that teacher,which in my opinion,would be preferable to the school closing and the entire staff being obliged to make up the time. Can I ask what you think of the situation posted below,where nearby staff come in to ensure that the school is kept open?

heldel00 wrote: »

Back in 2010 we had to close three days early for Christmas because toilets etc were frozen. My principal in all his genius decided we should voluntarily cut our Christmas holidays short and come back three days early!
We were one of the only schools in the country to do this (it wasn't compulsory at that time) but because of the number that had closed that year decision was made that days had to be made up from then on.
I could be wrong but I think that the days missed are supposed to be taken off Easter holidays?
(As a staff we have now decided that the three teachers living closest to the school will ski, swim or parachute in if necessary so as to make sure the school is counted as being open in future.)

Can I ask if that is a decision ye all took with yer principal on board? Logistically how would it work? Have ye ever put it to the test?

killbillvol2

Conelan wrote: »

What Killbill highlighted above is what we did. We prioritised tuition over non tuition activities, that was no big deal and no one outside the school would have really noticed but small things like pushing sports day into sports afternoon and doing an hour of it after school gave the public an example of how we were doing it. We also considered dropping the school tour. Those who were shouting loudest for extra day to be worked weren't long getting in a twist when our principal explained that we were abiding by the dept's circular and that this was one of its first suggestions. Suddenly those doing the shouting realised one of their favourite days of the year when their little darlings are taken off for nearly 12 hours might be in jeopardy!! In the end we compromised and did local short tours and put in a couple of hours in class in the morning before going. We're primary by the way, so we were looking to make up 5 hrs of class time. It was presented by principal to Board of Man. in that way i.e Sports Day change regains us 1.5 hrs, School Tour Day change regains us 2.5hrs. etc. In fact Board weren't too exercised by the issue at all and were just glad everyone was safe and alive (our days closed were weather related)
There was no presenting anything to the Dept. Thankfully our Principal is of the opinion that you don't go picking up the phone to ask them this that and the other. (it seems there is some form you can go and get and fill out your confession) The Board has the job of running the school and it really is a Board decision as to how any time missed is made up. The Dept can announce whatever they like from on high but the Board makes the decisions. The Dept are only too happy to leave it to Boards when the "proverbial" hits the fan, so it's the same here.

In a nutshell.

killbillvol2

newholland wrote: »

Obviously you have a chip on your shoulder about management. Think you should be banned for a comment like that

Do you really? Luckily you don't get to have your little power trip here.

Which part of the comment should I be banned for?

Oh, and last time I checked I was part of management.;)

heldel00

acequion wrote: »

I would imagine it would be counted as a self certified day for that teacher,which in my opinion,would be preferable to the school closing and the entire staff being obliged to make up the time. Can I ask what you think of the situation posted below,where nearby staff come in to ensure that the school is kept open?



Can I ask if that is a decision ye all took with yer principal on board? Logistically how would it work? Have ye ever put it to the test?

^^^ we have not had to do this yet but if necessary it will happen. All staff, including management, are in agreement. One teacher lives directly across from school and the other two are in the estate closest to school. It's ideal really.

(I would make it my business to get in if at all physically possible. It may not be for when the school opens but without a doubt I would be there as soon as safe to do so.)

acequion

heldel00 wrote: »

^^^ we have not had to do this yet but if necessary it will happen. All staff are in agreement.
(I would make it my business to get in if at all physically possible. It may not be for when the school opens but without a doubt I would be there as soon as safe to do so.)

Ok but how can you do that if all staff have been notified by text /email that the school will close? That's why I'm asking if this is a decision that ye have all taken with yer school management in agreement.Thanks.

byhookorbycrook

I know of a primary where a mother arrived in DEMANDING time be made up. (By all accounts same parent would not be averse to a lie in and sending children in at 11. The principal agreed that tuition time was paramount so asked that said parent would organise a vote amongst parents as to which should be cancelled- the school tours that always run over after hours anyhow, the annual sports' day or the end of year concert. She reversed out the door at a rate of knots.

heldel00

acequion wrote: »

Ok but how can you do that if all staff have been notified by text /email that the school will close? That's why I'm asking if this is a decision that ye have all taken with yer school management in agreement.Thanks.

As I said earlier we are a small staff. Notifying each other would not be a major issue.
The agreement is that the three closest will open school and the others should, if at all safe to do so, make their way to school at some stage during the day. And yes, as I said earlier, management are in agreement with this. It has not been included in a policy or anything like that because there is no need.

spurious

If you have a problem with a post, please report it.
Please stay on topic.

heldel00

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I know of a primary where a mother arrived in DEMANDING time be made up. (By all accounts same parent would not be averse to a lie in and sending children in at 11. The principal agreed that tuition time was paramount so asked that said parent would organise a vote amongst parents as to which should be cancelled- the school tours that always run over after hours anyhow, the annual sports' day or the end of year concert. She reversed out the door at a rate of knots.

Fair play to that principal.

byhookorbycrook

In fairness, most schools won't take the pee on this, they don't close for the heck of it. The most westerly primary school in Ireland was shown on the news as open on the day of Storm Rachel. The principal said her mother was a good judge of the weather and said they'd be fine. Can you imagine the consequences of a child being injured at school on a day when the gardaí , HSE and co. council had advised schools to close??
http://traleetoday.ie/gardai-hse-council-advise-schools-close-tomorrow/

gaiscioch

TheDriver wrote: »

However as we dig out circulars, how many schools followed the circular about no more half days just before the Christmas holidays? I think I only know of 4 yet if we are to follow circulars as they are written, we should all have been open.........(p.s. I like my half days like everyone else.......)

Presumably, even though this seems to say we can no longer work a 4.5 day week, it doesn't actually say that because if it did it would mean we have to work an extra half day per school week which would be something like working an extra 16-18 days over the course of the entire year? (167 school days per year/5 = 16.7). And if we had to work that many additional days teachers would go ballistic, right?

What exactly do they want with the half day, and when do they propose to implement it? (we have a half day each week, and there has never been anything said about this)

spurious

gaiscioch wrote: »

What exactly do they want with the half day, and when do they propose to implement it? (we have a half day each week, and there has never been anything said about this)

Once you have the kids on 28 hours a week you can have Wednesday or Friday half days, no problem.

I believe the circular was to do with a half day on the last day before the Christmas holidays(? )

You know when you're struggling to keep the few that have bothered to turn up on the 'Christmas concert' day amused. Yet another example of how clueless some in the DES are about what actually goes on in schools.

killbillvol2

The big problem with all of this is the creeping nanny state.

Decisions to close because of weather should be made locally. A red weather alert is a huge blunt instrument where the met office are essentially guessing (and covering their asses). This was seen in stark reality the other day when schools in Limerick were shut on a pleasant sunny day.

To expect that there might be someone in the DES with the wit to fine tune this is asking too much.

History Queen

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I know of a primary where a mother arrived in DEMANDING time be made up. (By all accounts same parent would not be averse to a lie in and sending children in at 11. The principal agreed that tuition time was paramount so asked that said parent would organise a vote amongst parents as to which should be cancelled- the school tours that always run over after hours anyhow, the annual sports' day or the end of year concert. She reversed out the door at a rate of knots.

Ha. Brilliant! I'd thank this twice if I could. Well done to the Principal!