Undergrad med vs GEM?

Seanf999

I'm 17 in 5th year and I'm known for posting quite often (too often) about studying medicine..
I've wanted to for years but I realised although I am by no means stupid.. I am lazy unless I am interest in that area, for instance I cannot do well in Irish, I can pass but I cannot get the grade needed for medicine undergrad..

I was recently looking into GEM and I noticed in RCSI in particular on its approach where you miss the unrelated parts and get straight down to the meat of the course.
That being said I don't know much about the differences..
Care to enlighten me?

Aaronlp5

I'm in an extremely similar position. My maths and Irish will probably prevent me from getting undergrad medicine, so I've done a lot of research into GEM.
Its basically the same but its an accelerated course. (Less holidays)
You will need a 2.1 in your primary level 8 degree, you then sit the GAMSAT, which a science degree will help you with, but arts students with some revision can do just aswell and often outscore science students.
You cover modules from years 1,2,3 of an undergrad degree in years 1 and 2 then are often put in with the undergrads for clinical years.
The big thing to consider is the cost. Around 60000 for the 4 years but if you really want medicine this won't get in your way. RCSI is most expensive but has the most established course and gets you right into things.
Suppose your 18 sitting the LC, then follow The GEM route you will be 25-26 when you qualify compared to the 23-24 year old undergrads. Bear in mind all American doctors are at least 25 graduating and you will be doing this for the rest of your life so a year or two extra shouldn't matter. This is the path I intend to follow and I've done A LOT of research so message me if you have any questions.
Do you mind me asking what points you are aiming for? You're still in 5th year so have buckets of time to pick up another subject if you decide to repeat 5th year.

Good Luck and please message me if you have more questions.

P.S I know two GEM doctors, one is a GP in Ireland, the other is doing her residency in America

Aaronlp5

Also I notice you say you cannot get the grade in Irish needed for medicine which i think is an OL D3. I'm awful at Irish but am aiming for a HL D1-C1 by just learning stuff off. In the nicest way possible can I ask do you think you could handle med school if you can't get an OL D3 in Irish? Not trying to discourage you, just pointing it out.

Seanf999

Aaronlp5 wrote: »

Also I notice you say you cannot get the grade in Irish needed for medicine which i think is an OL D3. I'm awful at Irish but am aiming for a HL D1-C1 by just learning stuff off. In the nicest way possible can I ask do you think you could handle med school if you can't get an OL D3 in Irish? Not trying to discourage you, just pointing it out.

Thanks for the post, covers all I need really!
To clarify I meant points wise not entry requirements, I'm doing higher level expecting a C3 (with a good amount of work) but going on points that would not bring me up enough to get the 550+ needed along with the hpat.
I'm realistically looking at 480 with study, if I go hell for leather and study like my life depends on it (my quality of life very much does) I'm looking at topping in at just over 520(ish)

My Irish, French and Maths are my draw backs.. I'm doing OL maths and leaving it out of the equation and hoping for a C3 in the other two.. I'm also doing music which I picked up this year..

jjC123

I would strongly recommend going for undergrad med seeing as you're in 5th year and not applying for courses with premed (fairly sure it's only compulsory in UCD).
GEM is
a)expensive
b)more intense than undergrad (and undergrad is INTENSE)
c)8 years min in college
d)difficult to get into
e) SO F******* EXPENSIVE

However, medicine is not the most difficult course you could do in terms of content, but in terms of workload, it's 5 years of an absolute grind. You will not be interested in every module. Fact. If you can't study things that don't catch your interest, medicine is not for you. It is a very long time of a very hard slog and if you can't bring yourself to study LC Irish, how could you possibly force yourself to study Medical Ethics/Global Health/Pharmacology/CNS/Biochemistry or whatever modules you hate because I can guarantee, you will HATE some of them. You still have to do it all in GEM. Plus, you may end up spending a heap of money on an undergrad you aren't interested in and realizing you don't have the grades for GEM after all that. If you're still set on medicine after all these considerations, I would urge you to apply for undergrad and if you don't get it, repeat and try again. GEM is the best option for many people, but if you're in 5th year and are already set on medicine, go for undergrad. Graduate medicine will devastate your finances for a very long time.

beardedmaster

jjC123 wrote: »

c)8 years min in college

3 year undergrad degree & 4 year GEM. That's 7 years total - equal to UCD & RCSI.

Aaronlp5

beardedmaster wrote: »

3 year undergrad degree & 4 year GEM. That's 7 years total - equal to UCD & RCSI.

I think it's 6 years in RCSI/UCD

Flange/Flanders

beardedmaster wrote: »

3 year undergrad degree & 4 year GEM. That's 7 years total - equal to UCD & RCSI.

4 year GEM costs 60k, just saying.

If you're completely set on doing medicine, try your best to get undergrad. If you dont get the points and are still set on doing medicine, then repeat your leaving cert. I'm a GEM, wanted to do med for undergrad, messed around too much during leaving cert and missed out. Went to college and loved my course (maybe the craic more than the content) and did well in it. But still in hindsight, it would have saved me a hell of a lot of money, its less intense in undergrad, from what I can see, undergrads go out relatively frequently (compared to GEMs where we very rarely go out midweek) and I'd be well down a training scheme at this stage. That said, I'm really beginning to enjoy GEM now.

beardedmaster

Aaronlp5 wrote: »

I think it's 6 years in RCSI/UCD

Duhrrr. I meant to say, UCD & RCSI, +1 year.

And yeah, the fees suck. If you want to get in, go for undergrad, and repeat the LC if you need to. The fees for GEM are pretty bad alright.

Abby19

Fees for RCSI GEM based on 2014 rates would be just shy of €68k
http://www.rcsi.ie/EU-GEM
The maximum loan you can get at the moment is €60k, and it is difficult to get that loan (check out other threads here), you would probably have to get your parents to guarantee it. And you also need somewhere to live, to eat, to clothe yourself, buy books, etc. and it can be hard to hold down a part time job because of the shorter holidays and intense workload.

You get one go at free fees (Ok with a registration fee), if medicine is for you, then do your best with the LC, and if necessary repeat it. It is soooooo expensive to do the GEM option, don't write off the undergraduate route completely. Some people are looking at Eastern Europe as an option, they teach through English, and you would be entitled to work in Ireland when you graduate (check if you are eligible to apply as an intern here, or only from SHO level).

If you are indepently wealthy you are very fortunate, if not maybe check with your parents whether they would be in a position to guarantee the loan for you and probably support you for living expenses.

Roger_that

If you're doing GEM, UCD for the craic, its cheaper than RCSI and the hospitals are great (Mater and St. Vincents)! The only thing I'd go to RCSI specifically for is if you're mad on doing neurosurgery... but thats the only reason.

I'd try to get undergrad med, if possible, for obvious reasons but GEM is grand if you get in. You'll pay back the loan but you'll probably need a job to keep you ticking over in between, which can be tough but is definitely doable.

Aaronlp5

Roger_that wrote: »

If you're doing GEM, UCD for the craic, its cheaper than RCSI and the hospitals are great (Mater and St. Vincents)! The only thing I'd go to RCSI specifically for is if you're mad on doing neurosurgery... but thats the only reason.

I'd try to get undergrad med, if possible, for obvious reasons but GEM is grand if you get in. You'll pay back the loan but you'll probably need a job to keep you ticking over in between, which can be tough but is definitely doable.

Did you do GEM? If so what course did you do first?

ronivek

GEM requires a Level 8 Degree; i.e. minimum of 4 years in Irish Universities plus the 4 years doing GEM. You can't even try to sit the GAMSAT and apply without a Level 8 degree.

In addition unless you're doing Science as your Undergrad; you'll need to put a lot of extra work into GAMSAT... it's not like you can just roll out of any degree and sit the GAMSAT straight away. You also have to take into account the timing; for example are you going to sit the GAMSAT during your degree? Depending on your workload that might be difficult.

Personally if I was in your position I'd be a) making sure Medicine is genuinely the right career for me and/or b) putting all my time and effort into securing a good Leaving Certificate and sitting the HPAT to see if undergraduate entry is going to be a possibility or not.

I'm currently trying to get into Medicine as a mature student and to say it feels like a frustrating kind of lottery would be an understatement.

beardedmaster

ronivek wrote: »

GEM requires a Level 8 Degree; i.e. minimum of 4 years in Irish Universities plus the 4 years doing GEM. You can't even try to sit the GAMSAT and apply without a Level 8 degree.

Both of these points are a bit off.
Many Level 8 degrees are 3 years duration in different Universities - Arts, Commerce, Law, Economics & Finance, Health & Performance Science - just to name a few.

As the GAMSAT results are valid for two years, you can sit the GAMSAT in the last year or the second-last year of your undergraduate degree, and go straight into GEM upon finishing. You don't have to have your degree completed to sit the GAMSAT.

Best of luck in your own applications - I'm just leaving those corrections there so that others aren't misled.

sReq | uTeK

beardedmaster wrote: »

Both of these points are a bit off.
Many Level 8 degrees are 3 years duration in different Universities - Arts, Commerce, Law, Economics & Finance, Health & Performance Science - just to name a few.

As the GAMSAT results are valid for two years, you can sit the GAMSAT in the last year or the second-last year of your undergraduate degree, and go straight into GEM upon finishing. You don't have to have your degree completed to sit the GAMSAT.

Best of luck in your own applications - I'm just leaving those corrections there so that others aren't misled.

Bearded this is really interesting. My wife has a masters, she also has a 3 year degree from university of auckland in nursing, she has a certificate from the NQA stating its a level 8.

However before sitting the gamsat she sent her transcripts to UCD for verification she could enter, they stated it was a 3 year degree and she wasn't eligible. Would you advise her of doing the same with RCSI or just leave it be, sit the gamsat and apply through the CAO if she scores well ?

beardedmaster

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Bearded this is really interesting. My wife has a masters, she also has a 3 year degree from university of auckland in nursing, she has a certificate from the NQA stating its a level 8.

However before sitting the gamsat she sent her transcripts to UCD for verification she could enter, they stated it was a 3 year degree and she wasn't eligible. Would you advise her of doing the same with RCSI or just leave it be, sit the gamsat and apply through the CAO if she scores well ?

This is an interesting one. Was the 3-year degree from the University of Auckland a Bachelor's Degree, or a diploma of some sort? Or perhaps UCD are more strict on the entry-requirements of overseas graduates? Another possibility can be found here - a qualification may be Level 8, but may not actually be an Honours Bachelor's degree - a Higher Diploma is the same level, but a different qualification.

If you're asking what I'd do - I'd contact RCSI/UL/UCC or whoever, say that you've completed x degree from University of Auckland (assuming it is a Bachelor's), but don't say how long the degree took. Wait for them to reply back, and sit the GAMSAT anyway.

ronivek

beardedmaster wrote: »

Both of these points are a bit off.
Many Level 8 degrees are 3 years duration in different Universities - Arts, Commerce, Law, Economics & Finance, Health & Performance Science - just to name a few.

As the GAMSAT results are valid for two years, you can sit the GAMSAT in the last year or the second-last year of your undergraduate degree, and go straight into GEM upon finishing. You don't have to have your degree completed to sit the GAMSAT.

Best of luck in your own applications - I'm just leaving those corrections there so that others aren't misled.

I wasn't aware there were 3 year level 8 degrees; but there will still be issues if those degrees don't have significant science content. Ultimately my point was entering graduate medicine is not as simple as just doing any old primary degree and getting entry into graduate medicine right away... there's a little more to it than that.

As for my second comment I was trying to state that you cannot apply to Graduate Medicine without a recognised level 8 degree; they simply won't consider your application whether you have GAMSAT or not.

sReq | uTeK

beardedmaster wrote: »

This is an interesting one. Was the 3-year degree from the University of Auckland a Bachelor's Degree, or a diploma of some sort? Or perhaps UCD are more strict on the entry-requirements of overseas graduates? Another possibility can be found here - a qualification may be Level 8, but may not actually be an Honours Bachelor's degree - a Higher Diploma is the same level, but a different qualification.

If you're asking what I'd do - I'd contact RCSI/UL/UCC or whoever, say that you've completed x degree from University of Auckland (assuming it is a Bachelor's), but don't say how long the degree took. Wait for them to reply back, and sit the GAMSAT anyway.

Its a BSc she has. When she first came across she got it verefied by the NQA. They said it was the equivalent of a level 8 in Ireland. She had to do this to apply for her masters in ucd......the same ucd who said its okay to sit a master's but not gem.

beardedmaster

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Its a BSc she has. When she first came across she got it verefied by the NQA. They said it was the equivalent of a 4 year honours in Ireland. She had to do this to apply for her masters in ucd......the same ucd who said its okay to sit a master's but not gem.

Well the School of Nursing in UCD (if it's them that she did the Masters with) may have had different criteria to the School of Medicine, is all I can guess. It is a pain though.

Roger_that

Aaronlp5 wrote: »

Did you do GEM? If so what course did you do first?

Yep I'm in GEM now. I did a science degree first. I'd say its useful but not the be all and end all. A biomedical science degree/pharmacy would be the best undergrad to have before going into GEM in my opinion

Seanf999

I've some issues overall which make me worry a bit about wether I could manage GEM or Undergrad.
I'm not the best at maths, I'm not hopeless, I'm fine on the basics like percentages, factors, multiplying, dividing etc but the higher level type content really is my killer..

I don't do chemistry, again I'm ok at it but no hope really of getting the points necessary.

So I'd be going for the longer route, which would require the first year to be fundamentals in Maths, Chemistry, Physics etc.. Hence why I'm anxious.

Cymini Sectores

If I am 17 and know what I know now, I'd repeat the leaving/hpat multiple times if that's what it takes to get into undergrad. If you are hungry for medicine, brush up on all the subjects that you find difficult, get grinds if need. Avoid GEM for obvious reasons. At least let it be the last resort. Don't get me wrong, I am loving GEM at the moment but wish I had kept my head down in my teens.

Seanf999

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

If I am 17 and know what I know now, I'd repeat the leaving/hpat multiple times if that's what it takes to get into undergrad. If you are hungry for medicine, brush up on all the subjects that you find difficult, get grinds if need. Avoid GEM for obvious reasons. At least let it be the last resort. Don't get me wrong, I am loving GEM at the moment but wish I had kept my head down in my teens.

I'm starting to view GEM really as a last resort..
I realise that I really should make the most of my time, I'm just starting to realise how lazy I really am!
I mean there are NFL players who are also orthopaedic surgeons..
Truth is I just need I knuckle down for the next 2 years

CAOMAN

Each of the institutions offering Graduate medicine assess the qualification together so if UCD rejects her qualifications as not meeting their requirements, it would be very unlikely that any of the other institutions would accept them.

Seanf999

CAOMAN wrote: »

Each of the institutions offering Graduate medicine assess the qualification together so if UCD rejects her qualifications as not meeting their requirements, it would be very unlikely that any of the other institutions would accept them.

It's that typical well if you're not good enough for there your not good enough for here ideology.

I'm of course going to try get the best leaving cert I can but honestly it doesn't seem to work in my favour, to get 550+ points I'd need to do 9 subjects with maths, Irish and French at lower disregarding them and focusing on my other subjects.

What degree would leave me with the best chance of getting into GEM? Or does it really matter so long as your topping your class

echo beach

Seanf999 wrote: »

I'm of course going to try get the best leaving cert I can but honestly it doesn't seem to work in my favour, to get 550+ points I'd need to do 9 subjects with maths, Irish and French at lower disregarding them and focusing on my other subjects.

You can't 'disregard' maths if you want to succeed in medicine. You need it for the sciences (maths is the language of science) and a good grasp of statistics is essential. Factor in the extra points for honours maths and it makes sense to do higher level.
It would also be much better to put the head down and do higher Irish and/or French than try to do another subject. 7 subjects for Leaving Cert is more than enough.

Wilhelmet

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Bearded this is really interesting. My wife has a masters, she also has a 3 year degree from university of auckland in nursing, she has a certificate from the NQA stating its a level 8.

However before sitting the gamsat she sent her transcripts to UCD for verification she could enter, they stated it was a 3 year degree and she wasn't eligible. Would you advise her of doing the same with RCSI or just leave it be, sit the gamsat and apply through the CAO if she scores well ?

It's definitely not a problem that your degree is 3 years. I was accepted to UCD and RCSI on my 3 year architecture degree.

To reiterate what has already been said, if i was pre-leaving cert, I would totally try and aim to get into medicine as an undergraduate, if possible. It simply wasn't what I wanted to do at the time, so it wasn't even a thought in my head. But if it is something that you know you want to do, then you should definitely just try and put the head down, and give it all you've got for the leaving certificate. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I wish I had someone kicking my arse a bit more for my leaving cert, back in the day!

I eventually decided to do the 5 year undergraduate in Barts in London, as it was/is where I was/am living, and I also was accepted the year before the UK fees went up, so it is only 3K a year for 4 years (last year free), which suited me to the ground. Just finishing my 4th year now, and am absolutely loving it, so if it's something you want to do...definitely give it all you've got. Like others have said, it's a hard slog...and you definitely won't always be fascinated/interested in what you're studying, so don't have any illusions about that......but it's a fantastic course, and I'm delighted I changed direction to do it.

Whatever you decide, the very best of luck!