Anyone else got classes mainly of overseas children

The Wife

Currently teaching a Junior Infant class of 29 children. 22 are not Irish. I'm finding it absolutely impossible (Ive 17 years experience) Anyone else in a similar situation who could give me tips?

dambarude

I think you might mean that 22 do not speak English as their first language? I'm not sure how relevant it is that they're not Irish.

There might be cultural nuances, but language, in my experience, is the greatest challenge.

evolving_doors

dambarude wrote: »

I think you might mean that 22 do not speak English as their first language? I'm not sure how relevant it is that they're not Irish.

There might be cultural nuances, but language, in my experience, is the greatest challenge.

If the OP could elaborate maybe a little. Like are you progressing through the usual curriculum in any way at all, or is it just damage limitation?

(Leaving aside the whole 'non-national/Irish/Foreign-national/Non-national-Parents-but-child-born-in-ireland 'thing' as we'll get caught up in moralising semantics till the cows come home)

Is it a language issue?
Crowd control?
Cultural differences?
(probably all of the above!)

mod

GalwayGirl26

I did work experience in a class like this, and it does seem to make everything that extra bit harder. If you could give more details on the exact problems/what nationalities are involved, that would be great!
One thing that I noticed was that children of the same nationality were not seated together; that meant they had to communicate in English during class time.

byhookorbycrook

Is there EAL support?

The Wife

Armelodie wrote: »

If the OP could elaborate maybe a little. Like are you progressing through the usual curriculum in any way at all, or is it just damage limitation?

(Leaving aside the whole 'non-national/Irish/Foreign-national/Non-national-Parents-but-child-born-in-ireland 'thing' as we'll get caught up in moralising semantics till the cows come home)

Is it a language issue?
Crowd control?
Cultural differences?
(all of the above!)

Yes huge language issues. 16 Polish children out of the 22 children whose mother tongue is not English. Their English in particular is weak at best. Getting through the curriculum is a constant struggle but really it's day to day issues-simple commands not being understood. Little comprehension of what I'm talking about. PE is a nightmare. Art the same. The number of 29 doesnt help. No SNA. Yes EAL means groups of 8 are taken out intermittently but that's not helping the day to day running of the classroom. Just finding that the curriculum I always taught is not as relevant. Irish in particular. Everything has to be visual so reading Alive O stories from a Teachers book is pointless. Oral language lessons are the biggest challenge.
Any advice appreciated.

mulbot

Is your situation any different to a classroom of Irish junior infants from a non gaelic speaking family going to a gaelscoil?

The Wife

mulbot wrote: »

Is your situation any different to a classroom of Irish junior infants from a non gaelic speaking family going to a gaelscoil?

Yes, I speak English and irish. I don't speak Polish. I can neither converse with my pupils nor their parents.

GalwayGirl26

Do you co-ordinate much with the EAL teacher? Maybe ask them to go through the basic classroom rules/commands with the smaller groups?

spurious

The Wife wrote: »

Yes, I speak English and irish. I don't speak Polish. I can neither converse with my pupils nor their parents.

I'm sure their parents can understand some English. It is taught from an early age in Poland.

RealJohn

The Wife wrote: »

Yes, I speak English and irish. I don't speak Polish. I can neither converse with my pupils nor their parents.

I'm not really a language teacher but I was under the impression that the conventional wisdom these days was that you don't use the students' own language at all, just the one you're teaching and that you use props and gesture and the like to get your point across.

Having taught Irish in the Gaeltacht where we were absolutely forbidden from speaking english to the students, I didn't find it especially hard. Granted, I was dealing with students of secondary school age but I would think the same theory applies.

I would also say that as a primary teacher, your job is first and foremost to teach the core subjects before worrying about other things. In your situation it's even more important because the students will need a good level of english to function in school, assuming their parents intend to stay in Ireland. Furthermore, I'd say you have something of an advantage when it comes to the Irish because the Polish parents aren't coming from a background of having been forced to learn Irish by often incompetent teachers and are probably quite open to and positive about the language which often isn't the case with Irish students.

Finally, surely it wouldn't be too difficult to learn a few key phrases in Polish just to get them to pay attention or to take their books out or whatever, would it?

amacca

I would think if you couple this with even a small percentage of wilfully lazy and/or disruptive students you've got an extremely stressful demoralising and unfair work environment OP.

My sympathies.

beauf

Are their any studies that give more information about the effect this has, and stratagems to deal with it.

Must be a problem in international schools or maybe educate together schools have a more mixed group of students.

seavill

amacca wrote: »

I would think if you couple this with even a small percentage of wilfully lazy and/or disruptive students you've got an extremely stressful demoralising and unfair work environment OP.

My sympathies.

Agree with this, I think theres a very simplistic unhelpful view of the situation rather than actual useful solutions.

The parents may understand some English but conversing is a different issue. I have kids that play sports for me thats parents are in the country almost 6 years and still havn't a word of English.

To me something like getting them to make a poster with simple commands on it in Polish beside the English version that you use.

Postgrad10

http://www.southernchildcarepartnership.ni.org/filestore/documents/You_and_Me_Booklet_September_2008.pdf

This is a useful handout to give you some basics.

katydid

The Wife wrote: »

Yes, I speak English and irish. I don't speak Polish. I can neither converse with my pupils nor their parents.

Your pupils are four and five year olds. They are IRISH if they are born in Ireland which most of them will be. They may speak another language at home, but they pick up English very quickly as long as you give them enough opportunity and stick to it. Linguistically they are like sponges.

As for the parents, there are very few Polish people who don't speak reasonably good English, so there's little reason to not be able to communicate with them.

katydid

amacca wrote: »

I would think if you couple this with even a small percentage of wilfully lazy and/or disruptive students you've got an extremely stressful demoralising and unfair work environment OP.

My sympathies.

Lazy? Disruptive? These are INFANTS!

seavill

katydid wrote: »

Your pupils are four and five year olds. They are IRISH if they are born in Ireland which most of them will be. They may speak another language at home, but they pick up English very quickly as long as you give them enough opportunity and stick to it. Linguistically they are like sponges.

As for the parents, there are very few Polish people who don't speak reasonably good English, so there's little reason to not be able to communicate with them.

You have no idea whether or not the parents or kids have any English or not. A person came on here for adivce to help out and you are basically telling them they are lying.
If the poster says the parents can't speak English who are you to tell them that very few Polish speak no English, maybe her group are that very small group.
Why not help the poster rather than being a hindrance

katydid

seavill wrote: »

You have no idea whether or not the parents or kids have any English or not. A person came on here for adivce to help out and you are basically telling them they are lying.
If the poster says the parents can't speak English who are you to tell them that very few Polish speak no English, maybe her group are that very small group.
Why not help the poster rather than being a hindrance

I didn't say they were lying. I think this person is making assumptions and not making an effort. Most Eastern Europeans have reasonably good English. They learn it in school and they use it wherever they work. I'm sure there are a few without good English, but I find it very hard to believe that a teacher can't communicate with most of them.

I find the poster's attitude xenophobic, starting with the assertion that the children are "overseas" children. The chances are, if they are four or five, than most of them have been born in this country, and are just as Irish as the teacher him or herself. If a teacher is starting out with this attitude, they are not going to get very far in helping children to develop their linguistic skills.

Four and five year olds are like sponges, you just persevere in English and they will pick up English. They have probably picked up far more of it than he or she realises. It's only five months into their first school year, it will all start to come together soon.

This teacher's xenephobic attitude is not helping matters.

seavill

But you miss my point, are we going to pick apart every single post someone makes because "chances are" its not the truth. Or I know 10 Polish people and 8 have better English then me so that means that all Polish people anyone comes into contact with must have great English.

We have to take the situation we are given here, these kids may have been born overseas, you have no basis for your accusations.

You have stated that "the chances are" the kids are born in Ireland and "most " Polish people have good English, why come on a thread to pick apart someones post, they have asked for advice on something, you have done nothing but in a round about way call them a liar and you have called them xenophobic, although you have worded it carefully to say its their "attitude" rather than them.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

But you miss my point, are we going to pick apart every single post someone makes because "chances are" its not the truth. Or I know 10 Polish people and 8 have better English then me so that means that all Polish people anyone comes into contact with must have great English.

We have to take the situation we are given here, these kids may have been born overseas, you have no basis for your accusations.

You have stated that "the chances are" the kids are born in Ireland and "most " Polish people have good English, why come on a thread to pick apart someones post, they have asked for advice on something, you have done nothing but in a round about way call them a liar and you have called them xenophobic, although you have worded it carefully to say its their "attitude" rather than them.

We have to be realistic here. The reality is that most Eastern Europeans speak good English. And, like it or not, the possibility of 22 children out of a class of 29 all being "overseas" children is very small.

I'm not picking apart their post, simply pointing out that to me a large part of the problem may be the attitude of the teacher. He/she is assuming that the children are "overseas", not Irish, just because their parents re not Irish, and they speak a different language at home. I find that quite shocking, to be honest.

But I've said my piece. All I can say to "help" is that this person needs to look at themselves first and seriously change their attitude. Then give it a chance, bombard them with English, and all will fall into place.

Nothing else to say

seavill

katydid wrote: »

We have to be realistic here. The reality is that most Eastern Europeans speak good English. And, like it or not, the possibility of 22 children out of a class of 29 all being "overseas" children is very small.

I'm not picking apart their post, simply pointing out that to me a large part of the problem may be the attitude of the teacher. He/she is assuming that the children are "overseas", not Irish, just because their parents re not Irish, and they speak a different language at home. I find that quite shocking, to be honest.

But I've said my piece. All I can say to "help" is that this person needs to look at themselves first and seriously change their attitude. Then give it a chance, bombard them with English, and all will fall into place.

Nothing else to say

Again completely missing the point, you have contradicted yourself here again highlighted above.

You are assuming, that they are "assuming". The OP knows their class you don't yet you accuse them of assuming. Brilliant stuff :rolleyes:

amacca

katydid wrote: »

Lazy? Disruptive? These are INFANTS!

No need for shouting/hysterics….you do not occupy some sort of moral high ground, other people can have opinions and they may differ from yours and shock horror there might be some truth in them.

Infants (as young as they are) are not one homogenous angelic mass

Infants can be disruptive, perhaps not wilfully/deliberately but working with groups of 20/30 even a small percentage of even accidental disruption can be quite the headache

They can also be lazy…not all infants are created equal, they are not all angelic go getters.

I'm simply saying it could be a very stressful work environment if even a small percentage acted up….couple this language issues…even regional accents here (ffs theres a lad from kerry I know and I can still only understand 50% of what he is saying)….Ill also stand by what I said earlier in that I think its an unfair work environment.

Finally I remember being a lot less than well behaved junior infant myself - I stole money (leaves) from the older girls shop, appropriated the headmistresses pen and subsequently banjaxed it, did not own up and hid my ink stained hands under my desk until someone grassed me up and I was caught literally red handed in one afternoon……then there was the graffiti incident, and the spitting, and the grass on the jeans and the fighting etc etc.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

Again completely missing the point, you have contradicted yourself here again highlighted above.

You are assuming, that they are "assuming". The OP knows their class you don't yet you accuse them of assuming. Brilliant stuff :rolleyes:

Ok. So 22 four and five year olds out of 29 were born outside this country. I find that extremely hard to believe.

Even if they were, the term "overseas" is bigoted and xenophobic. Whether or not these children were born "overseas" is irrelevant - the issue is a language one. There are children born in this country who speak a different language at home and children born "overseas" who speak perfect English.

The fact that he/she if stressing the "overseas" factor is very interesting, to say the least.

I've nothing more to say.

amacca

katydid wrote: »

Ok. So 22 four and five year olds out of 29 were born outside this country. I find that extremely hard to believe.

Why?

katydid wrote: »

I've nothing more to say.

You said that last time.

seavill

katydid wrote: »

Ok. So 22 four and five year olds out of 29 were born outside this country. I find that extremely hard to believe.

Even if they were, the term "overseas" is bigoted and xenophobic. Whether or not these children were born "overseas" is irrelevant - the issue is a language one. There are children born in this country who speak a different language at home and children born "overseas" who speak perfect English.

The fact that he/she if stressing the "overseas" factor is very interesting, to say the least.

I've nothing more to say.

Yea so you said.

Doesn't make your stance any less wrong. You have now accused the op of being bigoted as well as xenophobic.
There isn't anything wrong with Saying they were born over seas. Maybe foreign nationals might be the correct term but the op certainly hasn't said anything wrong there. Despite what you believe they may be telling the truth.

Funnily enough , and I know you will Prob think I sm making this up but I swear I'm not. We have had a new kid at second level join us since Xmas who is from eastern eurpoe somewhere not exactly sure where and when I say she has basically no English I really mean it. At the moment it's yes no hello. That's it.

We also work close to a direct provision centre for asylum seekers. Every couple of years we get 8 or 9 kids arrive at our door all at the same time from here. So based on my experience it is very feasible to have a large number of kids in the one class like the op possibly has depending on where the school is based.

I'm "assuming" based on your comments you have no experience of this. However as I'm only assuming this it in no way makes it true

CarpeDiem85

I had classes like that in Junior Infants too, dealing with a language barrier is difficult so you need to communicate more through visual aids like pictures, posters etc. Use a visual timetable and have it displayed in your classroom. Use your interactive board and whiteboard more. You need to demonstrate and model everything to show the children what they need to do. Repeat, repeat and repeat, lots of repetition. Speak slowly and clearly and over emphasise words. I would over emphasize your actions to get your point across. If the pupils aren't sure what to do, maybe ask them to observe what other pupils in the class are doing. Perhaps invite the parents in and discuss the Junior Infants curriculum and what is expected of their children and the parents. Maybe see if there are nice, approachable parents who speak English who might interprete for you if you need it. I would ignore other posters saying you are xenophobic. I taught EAL for 3 years and literally every year we had to use a new word for international children and if you didn't use these buzzwords, you weren't PC!

katydid

seavill wrote: »

Yea so you said.

Doesn't make your stance any less wrong. You have now accused the op of being bigoted as well as xenophobic.
There isn't anything wrong with Saying they were born over seas. Maybe foreign nationals might be the correct term but the op certainly hasn't said anything wrong there. Despite what you believe they may be telling the truth.

Funnily enough , and I know you will Prob think I sm making this up but I swear I'm not. We have had a new kid at second level join us since Xmas who is from eastern eurpoe somewhere not exactly sure where and when I say she has basically no English I really mean it. At the moment it's yes no hello. That's it.

We also work close to a direct provision centre for asylum seekers. Every couple of years we get 8 or 9 kids arrive at our door all at the same time from here. So based on my experience it is very feasible to have a large number of kids in the one class like the op possibly has depending on where the school is based.

I'm "assuming" based on your comments you have no experience of this. However as I'm only assuming this it in no way makes it true

<mod snip> Nobody likes a grammar nazi.<snip>

katydid

CarpeDiem85 wrote: »

I had classes like that in Junior Infants too, dealing with a language barrier is difficult so you need to communicate more through visual aids like pictures, posters etc. Use a visual timetable and have it displayed in your classroom. Use your interactive board and whiteboard more. You need to demonstrate and model everything to show the children what they need to do. Repeat, repeat and repeat, lots of repetition. Speak slowly and clearly and over emphasise words. I would over emphasize your actions to get your point across. If the pupils aren't sure what to do, maybe ask them to observe what other pupils in the class are doing. Perhaps invite the parents in and discuss the Junior Infants curriculum and what is expected of their children and the parents. Maybe see if there are nice, approachable parents who speak English who might interprete for you if you need it. I would ignore other posters saying you are xenophobic. I taught EAL for 3 years and literally every year we had to use a new word for international children and if you didn't use these buzzwords, you weren't PC!

International children? If they are born in Ireland they are Irish children, no matter where their parents are from. Are we really expected to believe that 22 out of 29 four year olds in a class were born "overseas"?

jaymcg91

katydid wrote: »

International children? If they are born in Ireland they are Irish children, no matter where their parents are from. Are we really expected to believe that 22 out of 29 four year olds in a class were born "overseas"?

I believe that birthright citizenship rules have now gone BTW, children born here are no longer automatically Irish. It's based on the parents.

CarpeDiem85

Have you any tips to offer for the OP? Also, even if children are born in Ireland, doesn't mean they want to be seen as Irish. Ask the children where are they from and they might say Poland. I always make a point of asking each individual child, I never assume that if they are born in Ireland that are think of themselves Irish. People still want their preserve their heritage and culture, regardless of where they live now. Also, if you have an issue with the term 'international pupils', please speak with someone in the Department of Education. I'm a teacher, I'm don't coin these words!

evolving_doors

OK some of you folks, please read my initial warning again for the reasons contained within...

(Leaving aside the whole 'non-national/Irish/Foreign-national/Non-national-Parents-but-child-born-in-ireland 'thing' as we'll get caught up in moralising semantics till the cows come home)

If we could get back to helping the OP without dishing out the 'home truths' and 'value judgements' that'd be great.

As per all advice seeking threads on boards, the fact that someone takes the step to seek advice is enough to warrant a bit of sensitivity and less hostility.

Also kindly refrain from commenting on spelling or grammar! It just shows that the charter hasn't been read... and that makes me uneasy.

katydid

mod snip for below reason ..., getting back to linguistics, total immersion and bombardment is the answer...

Dr Turk Turkelton

please see previous mod warning. Ignoring this is an infraction. And... it drags a thread off topic. Off topic posts will be deleted or edited.

Mod

ustazjoseph

So the Op is looking for help with some people like to call beginner bilinguals, others call EAl students. S/he it appears, hasn't much experience in this area. The politics of where they're from or why they're here etc are not relevant. We teach the group in front of us. As mentioned , linguistically , young people are like sponges and usually can cope with a multilingual environment well. Children in any class need structure , teacher enthusiasm and positive regard. Ive worked in UK schools where only a small percentage of the school population had English as a first language. Students will communicate. in their first language , in imperfect English or by signs. Over time this will become better Seating plans can help . groups of 4 or six students can support each other linguistically. Lots of visuals on the wall. If you have a whiteboard or laptops Google translate for all its imperfections can be a help ( if your students are first language literate - many aren't ) Hopefully some of them go to Saturday classes / polish school etc. The research says the kids who do , perform better in mainstream school. .Group work and pair work can help . Most Irish text books of the "read and answer the questions" variety are probably less helpful . the TES has good resources https://www.tes.co.uk/primary-teaching-resources/
Any chance your support teacher could team teach with you. We often found this more productive than withdrawal sessions.
games . fun , activities , non verbal communications all help .
take time to look after yourself . your doing a tough job.