Primary school database

Tabnabs

So we've received the form from the school. Neither of us want to fill it in at it seems particularly invasive and unnecessary. Personally I object to it being kept on file by the State for 30 years and being freely accessed across the departmental spectrum.

Has anyone else returned their childrens forms or what thoughts are there on complying with this edict?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-school-database-can-keep-personal-information-for-30-years-1.2057084

pwurple

Looks like information gathering in order to determine policy. Much like the CSO does in the census.

I'd have no issue with it to be honest. It's silly to make policy decisions without the correct information. It's probably a step on the way to evening out the numbers of religious vs non religious schools. Need hard data to back that up.

lazygal

I don't think this has anything to do with changing policy in terms of school patronage or anything else. Judging by the glacial pace of change in terms of the handover of schools to non-religious patron bodies, I see no reason why people ticking a box to tell the Department of Education that their child is white Irish and Catholic, or any other detail, is necessary. I would also wonder about whether this would lead to certain categories being stereotyped-why would the DofE need to know the number of children in a school of a particular ethnicity or religion? What does the ethnic background of a child have to do with education policy?

It's also a very blunt instrument for collecting data. Much like the census, it seeks the quantitative details but nothing behind that. You can't surmise that because 24 out of 100 children in a school are non white and non Catholic that the parents want a particular type of school for their children. My children aren't of any faith, but this doesn't mean we definitely don't want them attending a faith school. For many reasons the school closest to us would be preferential. I don't see why the DofE needs to know my children's religion and ethnic background, it has sweet damn all to do with their education.

Moonbeam

I have issues with it from a data protection point of view but in theory I think it is a great idea to actually use the information to provide schools in the right areas with the right amount of places.

lazygal

Moonbeam wrote: »

I have issues with it from a data protection point of view but in theory I think it is a great idea to actually use the information to provide schools in the right areas with the right amount of places.

How is that possible, though? Will a certain number of ethnic backgrounds be expected to be present in schools? What about religious background? To me the religious background question simply reinforces the absurd notion that the children of Ireland are divided up by religious lines. How can the DofE expect to allocate school places on this information? Just because someone is, for example, Lutheran, doesn't mean those parents want a Lutheran school for their children. Maybe they would want an ET nearby.

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

Just because someone is, for example, Lutheran, doesn't mean those parents want a Lutheran school for their children. Maybe they would want an ET nearby.

Well, if 50% of children are not RC, it doesn't put much of a case for having 90% RC schools... does it?

I'd like it as well if it lessened the death-grip of compulsory Irish in schools.

Can't do a damn thing without gathering accurate data though.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

Well, if 50% of children are not RC, it doesn't put much of a case for having 90% RC schools... does it?

I'd like it as well if it lessened the death-grip of compulsory Irish in schools.

Can't do a damn thing without gathering accurate data though.

We don't know that this data will be used for purposes such as changes in patronage. I doubt it will change the patronage of any school.

meeeeh

I think that ethnic background is very relevant. Firstly for pointers on support personnel needed and secondly to keep an eye on schools that are very ethnically non diverse. It is ok for a rural school in the middle of nowhere but if one Dublin school has 30% of kids of non Irish parents and the school down the road practically zero that would point out certain system anomalies.

Similarly I think tracking religious beliefs through time could help predict certain trends.

lazygal

Round our way a lot of parents get leaving cert pupils out of Irish with a letter from a sympathetic psychologist to the effect that so and so is suffering from having to study Irish. I'd be tempted do to the same for mine if they wanted to study something not requiring Irish.

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

I think that ethnic background is very relevant. Firstly for pointers on support personnel needed and secondly to keep an eye on schools that are very ethnically non diverse. It is ok for a rural school in the middle of nowhere but if one Dublin school has 30% of kids of non Irish parents and the school down the road practically zero that would point out certain system anomalies.

Similarly I think tracking religious beliefs through time could help predict certain trends.

And how could change come about in terms of ethnicity? Look at what happened in the USA when attempts were made to change schools and parents simply moved elsewhere.

meeeeh

lazygal wrote: »

And how could change come about in terms of ethnicity? Look at what happened in the USA when attempts were made to change schools and parents simply moved elsewhere.

Well that tells more about the parents (and the general society) than about the school policy.

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

Well that tells more about the parents (and the general society) than about the school policy.

It was a schools policy though. How would a schools policy go about ensuring ethnic balance in Irish schools? Why would rural schools be exempt?

meeeeh

lazygal wrote: »

It was a schools policy though. How would a schools policy go about ensuring ethnic balance in Irish schools? Why would rural schools be exempt?

They wouldn't be exemt but there are fewer immigrants in some village in middle of nowhere than in Dublin. As far as school policy goes, the beginning would be not to exclude other ethnicity (or Travellers) because their parents, siblings didn't go there or because they are not the right religion. And I think there were some cases of Traveller discrimination before the courts, similarly there was something about discrimination on the basis of religion lately.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/catholic-first-school-admissions-policies-may-be-illegal-1.2053401

I'm not going to solve the problem that maybe even doesn't exists but this is one way of keeping an eye on it. Or we can pretend that there is no way certain kids would be discriminated.

Hannibal Smith

When we enrolled our kids in school we had to fill out a form setting out ethnicity, religion and pps number. Now we have another form asking the exact same questions except with a consent at the end that the information can be stored on a dept of ed data base. I don't at all see the relevance or need for it. He's already in the system, as are his details, why this now?

heldel00

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

When we enrolled our kids in school we had to fill out a form setting out ethnicity, religion and pps number. Now we have another form asking the exact same questions except with a consent at the end that the information can be stored on a dept of ed data base. I don't at all see the relevance or need for it. He's already in the system, as are his details, why this now?

No his details are not in the system because there actually is no adequate system. This is being put in place to prevent children being "on the books" in more than one school at any one time but more importantly so as children can not disappear.
This happens quite frequently as children of all ethnicities move around, drop out of school, leave the state etc etc. it's actually quite frightening when you get a phone all wondering if "so+so" is still in our school months or even years after they left.

Hannibal Smith

heldel00 wrote: »

No his details are not in the system because there actually is no adequate system. This is being put in place to prevent children being "on the books" in more than one school at any one time but more importantly so as children can not disappear.
This happens quite frequently as children of all ethnicities move around, drop out of school, leave the state etc etc. it's actually quite frightening when you get a phone all wondering if "so+so" is still in our school months or even years after they left.

Why can't the department ask the school for the information they already have? How is a data base of names going to help track a child? Does a child just disappear from school without a teacher or principal raising questions? Why the need to keep the information for 30 years?

heldel00

The department will ask the school for info on those who do not return forms. A data base is obviously going to be able to track children as all dept will have to do is type in a child's name and ta-dah - details will be to hand in a much easier fashion than current approach.
Yes families do just up sticks and vanish overnight. I have plenty of unfinished books left in my classroom from children who were there one day and gone the next. We make phone calls to relations, social services, guards etc but we can go for months not knowing where a child is.
With regards to the 30 year thing I can only assume it's to cover primary, secondary, 3rd level and possibly mature students?

Hannibal Smith

heldel00 wrote: »

The department will ask the school for info on those who do not return forms. A data base is obviously going to be able to track children as all dept will have to do is type in a child's name and ta-dah - details will be to hand in a much easier fashion than current approach.
Yes families do just up sticks and vanish overnight. I have plenty of unfinished books left in my classroom from children who were there one day and gone the next. We make phone calls to relations, social services, guards etc but we can go for months not knowing where a child is.
With regards to the 30 year thing I can only assume it's to cover primary, secondary, 3rd level and possibly mature students?

They can ask all they want. He's not a chipped puppy in a pound. I don't want anyone having ta dah tracks on him.

heldel00

That's your prerogative. He most certainly is not a chipped puppy in a pound but he is however, a number on the books in the eyes of the department

lazygal

heldel00 wrote: »

The department will ask the school for info on those who do not return forms. A data base is obviously going to be able to track children as all dept will have to do is type in a child's name and ta-dah - details will be to hand in a much easier fashion than current approach.
Yes families do just up sticks and vanish overnight. I have plenty of unfinished books left in my classroom from children who were there one day and gone the next. We make phone calls to relations, social services, guards etc but we can go for months not knowing where a child is.
With regards to the 30 year thing I can only assume it's to cover primary, secondary, 3rd level and possibly mature students?

What on earth does any of that have to do with needing to know a child's ethnic or religious background? A name and pps number is sufficient, along with an address. I don't see why all parents are being asked to hand over personal irrelevant information because a small minority stop engaging with the formal education system.

heldel00

Religion will probably play a role in years to come when they try to establish more educate together/ non denominational schools and take back patronage in schools that have very low Catholic numbers.
Resource hours, DEIS school status, language teachers etc will more than likely be allocated to schools in the future depending on stats they collect.
I would view it as extremely important but that is only personal opinion. Few children at school have not returned form and I will not be pursuing it.

lazygal

heldel00 wrote: »

Religion will probably play a role in years to come when they try to establish more educate together/ non denominational schools and take back patronage in schools that have very low Catholic numbers.
Resource hours, DEIS school status, language teachers etc will more than likely be allocated to schools in the future depending on stats they collect.
I would view it as extremely important but that is only personal opinion. Few children at school have not returned form and I will not be pursuing it.

This data can only be used for the purpose for which it is collected. The best way to judge what will happen regarding patronage is the behaviour of the current patrons and I see no major changes regardless of data collected on ethnic or religious background. It simply reinforces the perception that children need to be divided up for education along religious lines.
How would ethic information inform policy? I think it could serve to further segregate children. I see this already with the gaelscoils near us, loads of parents pick them because they perceive them as more Irish and their children won't have to deal with children who's background is different. There's enough ridiculous duplication of schools already.

heldel00

Well let's say there are 25 children in my small country school of 130 who speak English as a second language, well then I feel we would have a much stronger case towards getting a language teacher to assist the children in their learning. Dept will not be able to argue and dispute (as they consistently do now) when the numbers are there in black and white. I do not see the database as being a means to segregate

lazygal

heldel00 wrote: »

Well let's say there are 25 children in my small country school of 130 who speak English as a second language, well then I feel we would have a much stronger case towards getting a language teacher to assist the children in their learning. Dept will not be able to argue and dispute (as they consistently do now) when the numbers are there in black and white. I do not see the database as being a means to segregate

Ethnic background is no pointer towards language requirements. I don't see why just because someone is a particular ethnicity that they'd require certain supports. My husband was born outside Ireland but he wouldn't have needed any language support.However, according to this form he'd been seen as differen and maybe you might think without knowing anything about him he'd need language support simply because of a form like this.
Surely language support should be based on need and not the ethnic profile of a student?

heldel00

Regardless as to whether or not a child needs it they would still be entitled to it. (No one in my school gets any lang supp since cutbacks etc were introduced.) Schools would give their left arm for additional support such as a language teacher. Nowadays support would be given in-class and all pupils would ultimately benefit regardless of ethnicity.

lazygal

heldel00 wrote: »

Regardless as to whether or not a child needs it they would still be entitled to it. (No one in my school gets any lang supp since cutbacks etc were introduced.) Schools would give their left arm for additional support such as a language teacher. Nowadays support would be given in-class and all pupils would ultimately benefit regardless of ethnicity.

First off you said this information would help deal with children who disappeared from the system, then you said it'd help patronage changes and now you're claiming it will somehow help schools to secure additional support if parents hand over forms telling the dept what ethnic and religious background children come from. I fail to see how any of the benefits you have outlined can be gleaned from parents ticking boxes on race, ethnicity and religion. Suppose I had adopted children of a different ethnic background to me and they're Irish. How would that information help a school in terms of funding for education supports? Would the school think children like that would further it's case for additional funding?

heldel00

God this is tiring. Yes I do believe that the database will be of benefit for all points I have already stated. Not going to state them again. And no schools will not look at ethnicity on enrolment form as dollar signs for additional funding.

Hannibal Smith

It sounds like you're guessing and making assumptions on why this information is being collected. If teachers don't know the reason behind it and the department aren't explaining it, how can parents consent to it.

heldel00

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

It sounds like you're guessing and making assumptions on why this information is being collected. If teachers don't know the reason behind it and the department aren't explaining it, how can parents consent to it.

I am suggesting as to how I feel the information will be used and benefit I feel the database will have. It is the job of the principal and department to monitor, record and submit stats not mine so reasoning behind it is not huge priority to me as a classroom teacher.The points I have stated are what I believe would be best use of stats collected. Maybe I'm wrong. Request further information from your school or take a look at the dept website. The school should have letters available to clarify what they have been asked by the "powers that be" to do

meeeeh

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

It sounds like you're guessing and making assumptions on why this information is being collected. If teachers don't know the reason behind it and the department aren't explaining it, how can parents consent to it.

I presume you refused to fill in the census form too because it is such an intrusion.

I for one actually think it is relevant data to establish the population patterns.But we can pretend that the whole country is made out of white Irish catholics and taylor the education system accordingly.

Glinda

The letter we got said that the information supplied will be placed in an online database that can be accessed by schools as well as the Department. I have data protection concerns about this, so I filled in the bits I was comfortable with and left the rest blank (didn't supply my maiden name for example as PPS is already a unique identifier and so I don't see the need for mother's maiden name as well).

I think they are chancing their arm and assuming that if you send people an official looking form most of them will supply all their confidential information (much like Irish Water looking for PPS).

Nobody has got back to me yet requesting the missing details and I don't expect they will. If they do, I'll have a rethink at that stage.