Primary school database

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

I presume you refused to fill in the census form too because it is such an intrusion.

I for one actually think it is relevant data to establish the population patterns.But we can pretend that the whole country is made out of white Irish catholics and taylor the education system accordingly.

There has been zero information on how this data will be used and for what purposes. Unlike the census, which is quite an open and transparent process.

jjjules

When i first received the form for POD i phoned the NPC to find out if it was compulsory to fill it in as i thought the school already had these details and was concerned about putting my signature on the form. I spoke to a lady who said that 'no' it was not compulsory yet. I didnt fill in the form but a couple of months later i received the form again from the school with a note saying to fill in and return as soon as possible. I phoned the NPC again and they gave me a helpline number for POD. I phoned them and they said that if part 1 of the form was not filled in then my childs school would not receive the Capitation grant for her. You can find info on this on the citizens advice page as because i am new to boards i cannot post URL's

They said that i did not need to fill in part 2 and that i also did not need to sign it. They told me that this system was replacing the census and that it was to ensure that children were not lost from the system. I noticed that none of these points were mentioned in the recent irish times article.

Tabnabs

jjjules wrote: »

They said that i did not need to fill in part 2 and that i also did not need to sign it. They told me that this system was replacing the census and that it was to ensure that children were not lost from the system. I noticed that none of these points were mentioned in the recent irish times article.

Be very clear on that point, by not signing it, the parent or guardian does not give consent to the school to enter the information into the database to be allowed access by the DOE or any other department who can access the database. This is very clearly a data protection issue and for the school to enter the information onto the database would be a breech of data protection regulations.

pwurple

I'm sad to see the reaction here. I mean, I take the piss out of the social scientists as much as anyone with a technical background, as it does seem very fluffy, but this is their primary data-gathering mechanism. I much prefer to see some shape of scientific data being gathered, instead of mindless pontificating based on zero facts.

We need information on the population in order to make choices. What is people's prerogative in withholding it? Do you send back the census unanswered as well?

Tabnabs

Just received the following email

Hi Tabnabs,

There is no legal requirement to return this form.

If you do not consent to your child’s data being entered on POD then you should inform your school in writing that your do not wish to have your child’s information entered on POD, however from 2016/2017 this may have funding and teacher allocation implications for your school going forward.

Kind regards,

POD Helpdesk – Statistics Section

I have also found some interesting additional information:

As both religion and ethnic and cultural background are considered sensitive personal data categories under Data Protection legislation, it is necessary for each individual pupil’s parent/guardian to identify their own religion and ethnic or cultural background, and to consent for this information to be transferred to the Department of Education and Skills. All other information held on POD was deemed by the Data Protection Commissioner as non-sensitive personal data and therefore does not require written permission from parents for transfer of the information to the Department.

http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Primary-Online-Database-POD-/POD-FAQ-on-the-Primary-Online-Database.pdf

So it appears that the school can give the information required without explicit consent of the parents/guardians and this will not have implications on their funding and resource allocations.

Also regarding the length of time these records will be kept on file:

The Department will retain personal data in categories 1 and 2 for each pupil on POD for the longer of either the period up to the pupil’s 30th Birthday and subject to review thereafter or for a period of ten years since the student was last enrolled in a primary school.

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0017_2014.pdf

So very clearly they are stating that the information can be kept on record after the individual has passed their 30th birthday. In fact, it really gives no date at all as to when the records will categorically be deleted.

A very different message to the one the current minister of Education is giving. What else is being spun to ensure compliance? And who else, further down the road, will get access to this information?

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

I'm sad to see the reaction here. I mean, I take the piss out of the social scientists as much as anyone with a technical background, as it does seem very fluffy, but this is their primary data-gathering mechanism. I much prefer to see some shape of scientific data being gathered, instead of mindless pontificating based on zero facts.

We need information on the population in order to make choices. What is people's prerogative in withholding it? Do you send back the census unanswered as well?

We have information on the population from the census. Does this new data collection exercise mean data collected in the last census is meaningless for education planning? If I could read exactly what this would be used for, such as to speed up patronage change, maybe I'd be more comfortable with this process.

Tabnabs

lazygal wrote: »

We have information on the population from the census. Does this new data collection exercise mean data collected in the last census is meaningless for education planning? If I could read exactly what this would be used for, such as to speed up patronage change, maybe I'd be more comfortable with this process.

From reading the DoE circulars on this topic, patronage change does not come up even once. "Help ensure that all children in the education system
can reach their potential" is their direct quote for why ethnicity and religious information should be recorded. Also they are obliged by law to record Traveller and Roma numbers in the school.

lazygal

Tabnabs wrote: »

From reading the DoE circulars on this topic, patronage change does not come up even once. "Help ensure that all children in the education system
can reach their potential" is their direct quote for why ethinical and religious information should be recorded. Also they are obliged by law to record Traveller and Roma numbers in the school.

Exactly. And there is no reason to assume that the parents of non Catholic children attending a Catholic school automatically want a different type of school. What does 'reach(ing) their potential' have to do with their ethnic or religious background?
This would be far simpler if we had one national education system without looking for ways to duplicate primary schools on the ground of religion, resulting in small schools which are inefficient and compete for resources.

meeeeh

What I find interesting is that a lot of the people who have problem giving this info to state are willingly giving the same information to supermarkets using point card schemes, Facebook, Google and so on...

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

What I find interesting is that a lot of the people who have problem giving this info to state are willingly giving the same information to supermarkets using point card schemes, Facebook, Google and so on...

This old chessnut. There is a difference between voluntarily giving Facebook information on your children's ethnic background and schools being given information to the effect that if parents don't pass on what is regarded as sensitive information to be stored on a state database until a child is 30 years of age, or longer, the school funding will be cut. We have zero information on the actual purpose of this data collection exercise from the body doing the collecting.

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

We have information on the population from the census. Does this new data collection exercise mean data collected in the last census is meaningless for education planning? If I could read exactly what this would be used for, such as to speed up patronage change, maybe I'd be more comfortable with this process.

The census is every ten years. Next one due in 2016, so the data is nearly a decade out of date. I know neither of my children are on the last census, but they are starting school.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

The census is every ten years. Next one due in 2016, so the data is nearly a decade out of date. I know neither of my children are on the last census, but they are starting school.

Apart from helping children to 'reach their potential' though, it hasn't been confirmed that this data will be used to aid planning of school or education policy in any way. And if the census data wasn't used to aid such planning, what would make anyone believe this data collection exercise will somehow be used for planning purposes?

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

Apart from helping children to 'reach their potential' though, it hasn't been confirmed that this data will be used to aid planning of school or education policy in any way. And if the census data wasn't used to aid such planning, what would make anyone believe this data collection exercise will somehow be used for planning purposes?

I think the census data is used for this... but it's out of date. Hence this mini-census for school-age children. I wonder will they run it every year or something.

And what would be for OTHER than planning? To have a good laugh or something?

Tabnabs

It's not any kind of "mini-census". It's a new and annual program to farm the PPSN, ethnicity and religious details of every primary school going child in the State into the future.

Why keep the records possibly indefinitely, what planning requirement would that achieve?

Hannibal Smith

meeeeh wrote: »

I presume you refused to fill in the census form too because it is such an intrusion.

I for one actually think it is relevant data to establish the population patterns.But we can pretend that the whole country is made out of white Irish catholics and taylor the education system accordingly.

Thats a pretty big assumption on how I think. You don't even know me..but carry on with your ridiculous stirring.

Im not a sheep willing to hand over information to some data base for 30 years without knowing exactly why.

Hannibal Smith

pwurple wrote: »

I'm sad to see the reaction here. I mean, I take the piss out of the social scientists as much as anyone with a technical background, as it does seem very fluffy, but this is their primary data-gathering mechanism. I much prefer to see some shape of scientific data being gathered, instead of mindless pontificating based on zero facts.

We need information on the population in order to make choices. What is people's prerogative in withholding it? Do you send back the census unanswered as well?

They have census forms, they have enrolment forms. Every bit of information on the form has already been handed over. Its my job to make the right decision for my kids and Im not consenting to them being tracked. ..or their personal information to be logged somewhere without knowing why.

meeeeh

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Thats a pretty big assumption on how I think. You don't even know me..but carry on with your ridiculous stirring.

Im not a sheep willing to hand over information to some data base for 30 years without knowing exactly why.

So you are more comfortable providing your child's data to a school which is most likely under patronage of Catholic church governed by another state than to irish state. It is about sheep indeed.

Hannibal Smith

meeeeh wrote: »

So you are more comfortable providing your child's data to a school which is most likely under patronage of Catholic church governed by another state than to irish state. It is about sheep indeed.

You're grasping those straws pretty tight.

meeeeh

I thought so.

I would thank that a centralized information that enables any kind of decent analysis of where is school system going, what kind of educational needs are in the system would be a good thing. But no maybe employing extra staff to pull together the same data from different databases that state already has, is a better approach. So nobody will be spooked about giving the state tax number that you can so easily get when calling social welfare.

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

I thought so.

I would thank that a centralized information that enables any kind of decent analysis of where is school system going, what kind of educational needs are in the system would be a good thing. But no maybe employing extra staff to pull together the same data from different databases that state already has, is a better approach. So nobody will be spooked about giving the state tax number that you can so easily get when calling social welfare.

No one knows what this database will be used for, so any claim that it'll be used for planning purposes is purely speculative.

byhookorbycrook

As a teacher ,I know when we were first asked to submit the standardised test results that we were told it was just for information, nothing else. Now it seems those results will be used to allocate staffing levels to schools. Likewise this POD, being brought in for seemingly harmless information type things, what use the DES plan to make of all of this very personal info is anyone's guess.

As an aside, it seems a lot of parents who were born in other countries are listing their children as say, Polish, when in fact the child was born in Ireland. Likewise the question about "Irish Travelers" has many international parents confused, they feel that , now , they are Irish and since they traveled to Ireland, they are Irish Travelers.

Orion

The ethnic options show how much thought went into this: White Irish, Irish Traveller, Any other White, Black African, Any other Black
So there's no such thing as Black Irish people?

I find it pretty amazing that the DPC says that religion and ethnic backgrounds are SPD but DOB, address, PPSN and mother's maiden name aren't.

Orion

That said I'll probably fill it out - I don't have an issue really with them having up to date information to plan capacity, patronage etc which it will inevitably be used for. I do have a problem with the retention period so I'll be putting a note in my diary to have my kids demand it be deleted on their 18th birthday. They'll be adults then and will have every right to demand that.

Orion

lazygal wrote: »

No one knows what this database will be used for, so any claim that it'll be used for planning purposes is purely speculative.

Yes we do:
http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0017_2014.pdf

The Department of Education and Skills will use pupils’ data on POD in Category 1 and some Category 2 data to establish the teaching posts and core funding to be allocated to each recognised primary school, for the following school year. For a pupil to be included in this calculation, they must be validly enrolled in a recognised school, in accordance with the requirements as specified in departmental circulars.

The Department also will use pupil data in categories 1 and 2 stored in POD for planning, policy and statistical purposes. In general, it does not use individual data for these purposes, but rather aggregates this data to meet its business needs. A small proportion of the data recorded by schools on POD is required for these purposes only.

lazygal

Orion wrote: »

Yes we do:
http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0017_2014.pdf

Interesting. I still don't see why they need information on religion and ethnicity though. Just because school a has 23 non Catholic children doesn't mean it needs particular resources. Equally ethnic background doesn't necessarily equal specific planning requirements. It'd also be nice if the dept could share this information more widely. Even the teachers in this thread didn't quote that information.

jjjules

I didnt see a problem with the religion and ethnicity as it needs to be recognised that there is a large number of children in irish catholic schools that are either non-religious or practice another religion. These children (including my daughter, non-religious) are grouped together during religion class and are allowed to read a book or colour etc. This is fine for the moment but i would like to see something put in place for these children so that they could be supervised outside the religion class. Many parents seem confused about the fact that,

'Children have a human right to a neutral studying environment in all schools (multi-denominational / denominational schools). There are no non-denominational schools in Ireland and Home schooling is not a valid option. You have a human right under the European Convention to opt your child out of religion without disclosing your religious or philosophical convictions. You also have a right to opt your child out of religion classes if you believe it will cause your child to face a conflict of allegiance between the school and your religious or philosophical convictions (ECHR Mansur & Others v Turkey, Sept 2014).

Secularism is regarded as a philosophical conviction protected by Article 9 and Article II of Protocol 1 (the right to education) of the European Convention and Article 18 of the UN International Covenant of Civil & Political Rights. Article 42.1 of the Irish Constitution obliges the State to respect the inalienable rights of parents, at this stage nobody is claiming that this only applies to religious parents. There is a positive obligation on the State to respect the philosophical convictions of atheist/secular parents and their children under Article II of Protocol 1 of the European Convention.

In Ireland parents are responsible for the supervision of their children if they opt them out of religion classes or religious worship, it is impossible to opt out of a religious ethos. Schools are not obliged to supervise children outside the religion class or religious services and another subject is not provided. In essence this means that opting out is a theoretical illusion and not operable in practice.

Opting out of Religion classes.

You have a Constitutional right under Article 44.2.4 and Article 42.1 of the Irish Constitution to remove your child from religion in schools. No school has the right to force your child to take religion classes and they cannot make it a condition of access either. You have a Constitutional right to attend any school in receipt of state funding and opt your child out of anything that is against your conscience and that includes religion classes.

lazygal

My children won't be doing religion in school either. But there is no hope that this information will be used to change the status quo. The catholic church won't hand over schools, they will instead insist on maintaining their school control and having other schools built, which will only lead to further segregation. I've no idea how information on ethnicity can lead to any change in patronage, without fundamental change in the rules that govern how we fund and manage schools. Its currently a requirement that every school patron has an ethos. Ethos is just another word for discrimination on spurious grounds.
And I don't like the idea that somehow religious and ethnic difference is a reason to change the way schools segregate children, rather than it simply being the right thing to do to educate all children in a state run and funded education system and telling parents who want to do indoctrination to do it on their own time.

pwurple

lazygal wrote: »

...rather than it simply being the right thing to do to educate all children in a state run and funded education system and telling parents who want to do indoctrination to do it on their own time.

Yikes. Have you ever been to a state run public school in another country? Uk? Us? They're pretty grim. Even my non-religious friends in the Netherlands send their children to the local religious school. Their numbers of religious schools are increasing, due to demand, despite a increasingly secular population. For whatever reason, the religious schools provide better reading, writing and maths, and the parents see beyond their athiesm to put high educational standards first.

Dumbing down the whole school system to match the uk system would be far worse than what we have now.

jjjules

pwurple wrote: »

Yikes. Have you ever been to a state run public school in another country? Uk? Us? They're pretty grim. Even my non-religious friends in the Netherlands send their children to the local religious school. Their numbers of religious schools are increasing, due to demand, despite a increasingly secular population. For whatever reason, the religious schools provide better reading, writing and maths, and the parents see beyond their athiesm to put high educational standards first.

Dumbing down the whole school system to match the uk system would be far worse than what we have now.

I completely disagree with the above and think that the fact that non-religious parents who 'pretend' to be religious so they can send their children to religious schools are half the problem in this country! As parents we need to fight for the right for our kids to go to a school which has 'high educational standards' as this is their human right. We also need to be more open regarding the fact that we are not religious and that this is ok and should in no way affect our kids education? The kids in my childs school are very confused regarding religion as they obviously dont practice it at home with their families and their parents dont explain to them the fact that some people are either not religious or are from a different faith. My child and only one other child in the class opt out of religion for two very different reasons, we are non religious and the other child is Jehovah witness. It was confusing for the children at christmas as jehovah witness's dont celebrate christmas or santa and we do as santa is not in the bible?? and there are lots of reasons(traditional non-religious reasons) why we celebrate at this time of the year! Also two of my nieces went to a public run school in london and they celebrated all religions and were taught about them. They have both gone on to do very well in their lives! If more parents who call themselves catholic for the various different reasons they give such, as 'poor little billy will feel left out' and 'i had to do it for my parents' would just get a grip on their own lives and stop pretending to be something they are not!!! I am so sick of listening to the other parents joking about why they dont go to mass etc

byhookorbycrook

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/discussions-ongoing-over-primary-school-database-1.2077707