Primary school database

lazygal

jjjules wrote: »

I completely disagree with the above and think that the fact that non-religious parents who 'pretend' to be religious so they can send their children to religious schools are half the problem in this country! As parents we need to fight for the right for our kids to go to a school which has 'high educational standards' as this is their human right. We also need to be more open regarding the fact that we are not religious and that this is ok and should in no way affect our kids education? The kids in my childs school are very confused regarding religion as they obviously dont practice it at home with their families and their parents dont explain to them the fact that some people are either not religious or are from a different faith. My child and only one other child in the class opt out of religion for two very different reasons, we are non religious and the other child is Jehovah witness. It was confusing for the children at christmas as jehovah witness's dont celebrate christmas or santa and we do as santa is not in the bible?? and there are lots of reasons(traditional non-religious reasons) why we celebrate at this time of the year! Also two of my nieces went to a public run school in london and they celebrated all religions and were taught about them. They have both gone on to do very well in their lives! If more parents who call themselves catholic for the various different reasons they give such, as 'poor little billy will feel left out' and 'i had to do it for my parents' would just get a grip on their own lives and stop pretending to be something they are not!!! I am so sick of listening to the other parents joking about why they dont go to mass etc

I wouldn't bother getting worked up. I've read similar posts from that poster about educate together schools and how terrible they are. Some people think only religious orders are capable of running functional education systems regardless of any other evidence.

byhookorbycrook

http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2015/01/20/unanswered-legal-problems-with-the-governments-new-database-of-children/

constance tench

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2015/01/20/unanswered-legal-problems-with-the-governments-new-database-of-children/

He has an update within that link now.

Here's another data protection expert's blog post on POD.
http://obriend.info/2015/01/17/data-protection-rake-whack/

Every parent of primary school children should read these.

pwurple

jjjules wrote: »

I completely disagree with the above and think that the fact that non-religious parents who 'pretend' to be religious so they can send their children to religious schools are half the problem in this country!

I agree with you, no-one should pretend to be religious. However I do think children benefit from learning religion, whether they are religious or not. It's massively important to most of the population of the planet. Even if they do not believe in any of it (which is fine), there is experience and knowledge to be gained from seeing it in action. It gives context on a global scale to art, architecture, literature, humanities, philosophy, ethics, conflict, history, language.

Irish on the other hand? Dead language... and not even a vaguely useful dead language like latin. 0.001% of the planets population have even heard of it. Useful from a historical point of view for a tiny percentage of this teensy island, and yet it's compulsory.

jjjules

I think that religion would be a useful subject if it wasnt catholic and just educated children on all the different religions of the world (this is what they do in state run (non religious) schools in uk). I dont know how you can compare learning irish to religion as it is just a language and may help kids in the future to grasp other languages easier? It is in no way brain washing and confusing children in the way catholic religion does!

pwurple

jjjules wrote: »

I think that religion would be a useful subject if it wasnt catholic and just educated children on all the different religions of the world (this is what they do in state run (non religious) schools in uk).

The religion program in irish schools does include all religions. I don't know why you'd exclude Catholicism specifically, especially given the population that are christian in some form. The UK state run schools I've experienced are brutal. I really wouldn't aspire to them at all.

I dont know how you can compare learning irish to religion as it is just a language and may help kids in the future to grasp other languages easier?

And I didn't say they were the same, I'm saying if I was going to tackle any issue in Irish education it would be the dopey compulsory irish instead of learning a live language. Why wouldn't mandarin or spanish do the same job as irish for pre-language teaching?

It is in no way brain washing and confusing children in the way catholic religion does!

LOL. If an Irish religion class brainwashes, it's doing a fairly brutal job of it to be fair. You don't sound too brainwashed by it anyway!

Orion

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/discussions-ongoing-over-primary-school-database-1.2077707

“I think we need to get clarity from the Department of Education as to whether the data is being held from a certain point onwards in an anonymised form and only being used for statistical purposes. It is possible that is the case, but again there’s insufficient clarity on it.”

If this is the case I'd have no problem with the data retention. There is no issue with anonymised statistical data being retained to show trends over a long period of time - that's useful. But the circular and all commentary says that they are retaining the full personal data for 30 years - that's unacceptable to me.

I more than likely will be sending this form in as I can see it's use. But I will be having my kids, at 18, demand that all their personal data be deleted from the POD. That will be within their rights as adults.

jjjules

The religion program in irish schools does include all religions??
I have never seen any evidence of any other religion being thought in irish catholic schools, can you let me know where and what religions?
I just really dont know what would be wrong with parents taking over the responsibility of teaching their children their faith of choice rather than leaving it up to the school.

I am almost 40 and thankfully at least the way catholic religion is taught in schools is different now as in children are not terified into believing in god, all that hell and the devil stuff they used to teach us. I dont know where you were raised or what religion but it took me a long time of get rid of the catholic religion guilt complex etc......

lazygal

The Alive-O programme does not include all religions. Anyway, there's over 30,000 Christian sects alone. How would any curriculum teach about all of the other denominations as well?

This is the Alive-O curriculum for the indoctrination of children in Catholic controlled schools: http://education.dublindiocese.ie/2014/12/15/alive-o/

I think some people are under the impression that 'religious eduction' isn't indoctrination, but it is. It is teaching children about the tenets of what the school believes to be the only true religion.

lazygal

First Class (Alive-O 3): Questions and Answers

Q. Who gives us the gift of life?
A. God our Father gives us the gift of life.
Q. Who gives us the gift of life with others?
A. God our Father gives us the gift of life with others.
Q. On what day was Jesus Christ, the Son of God, born?
A. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was born on Christmas Day.

Q. Why did God Our Father send His Son?
A. God Our Father sent His Son, Jesus, to tell us that He loves us and wants us to be His children.
Q. What does God Our Father do for us in the Sacrament of Penance?
A. In the Sacrament of Penance God Our Father forgives us.
Q. What happened on Good Friday?
A. On Good Friday Jesus died on the Cross.
Q. What happened on Easter Sunday?
A. On Easter Sunday God Our Father raised Jesus to new life.
Q. What do we listen to at Mass?
A. At Mass we listen to the words of Jesus.
Q. Who comes to us in Holy Communion?
A. The Lord Jesus comes to us in Holy Communion.
Q. How does the Holy Spirit help us?
A. The Holy Spirit helps us to live like Jesus.






This is a first class sample question and answer doctrine resource. I don't see much mention of other belief systems in that.
http://education.dublindiocese.ie/2012/02/21/doctrine/

Orion

Senior Infants history books have a chapter on the birth of Jesus and the meaning of Christmas. Yes you read that right - the history book!

lazygal

Orion wrote: »

Senior Infants history books have a chapter on the birth of Jesus and the meaning of Christmas. Yes you read that right - the history book!

And the earth is 6,000 years old, right?!

Orion

The more I read about this the less I like it. I've had an about face. I am not just refusing the allow the school to pass over the Sensitive Personal Data - I am refusing them permission to pass over any personal data (See the Data Protection Act for the difference - http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=796#DPA).

That refusal will remain until:
1) The Minister clarifies the retention period and what data will be retained
2) The Minister details the full reasons she is demanding this data and what it will be used for
3) Removal of any threats to withhold funding from schools where parents deny permission for personal data to be entered on the POD
4) The removal of the free text Notes field on the POD
5) A ruling from the DPC of the legality of all the above
6) A withdrawal of the directive that schools enter personal data in the POD even if parents withhold permission (#3 in the FAQ - http://www.education.ie/.../POD-FAQ-on-the-Primary-Online...
7) The Minister clarifies the security measures being undertaken to protect the data and that any other bodies the DES shares it with will also follow these security measures.

Orion

lazygal wrote: »

And the earth is 6,000 years old, right?!

It was a short history book

meeeeh

Orion wrote: »

3) Removal of any threats to withhold funding from schools where parents deny permission for personal data to be entered on the POD

Why would school get paid for special supports that nobody is requesting? better to provide them where needed.

Orion

meeeeh wrote: »

Why would school get paid for special supports that nobody is requesting? better to provide them where needed.

That's not the point. If the school needs special supports there are already mechanisms in place to obtain them without using the POD. I'm specifically referring to the threat by the minister to withhold funding from schools if we don't comply with their data mining exercise.

Orion

That's the type of threat I'm talking about. No reference to special supports - it's just a general threat and makes the data gathering illegal under the DPA.

meeeeh

But leaving special supports to schools causes fragmented planning, it depends on how interested school administration is. It is the same with religion, plenty of people moaning about religious schools but when they have a chance to state that their child is of no religion it breaches their data protection. And the they will moan again on the internet how their rights are not being implement and, from another thread, how parents who baptize children are responsible for their lack of choice of non denominational schools.

One would think that half decent data base is needed to track real time developments and also track changes through time to adapt to them.

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

But leaving special supports to schools causes fragmented planning, it depends on how interested school administration is. It is the same with religion, plenty of people moaning about religious schools but when they have a chance to state that their child is of no religion it breaches their data protection. And the they will moan again on the internet how their rights are not being implement and, from another thread, how parents who baptize children are responsible for their lack of choice of non denominational schools.

This is all true. But there has been zero information that this data collection exercise will address anything to do with dominational schools and the requirements of pupils with special needs.

meeeeh

lazygal wrote: »

This is all true. But there has been zero information that this data collection exercise will address anything to do with dominational schools and the requirements of pupils with special needs.

Well do you want them to make a plan before they can actually make an informed decision?

Orion

meeeeh wrote: »

One would think that half decent data base is needed to track real time developments and also track changes through time to adapt to them.

I agree. And if you read up you'll see that I agreed with this already. However a flawed database, backed with coercion, with an excessive retention period and little or no controls is not the means to do it.

If the Minister clarifies how the database will be used, reduces the retention, restricts the access, and removes such threats I will happily fill in the form. In other words when she complies with the DPA. Until such time I won't.

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

Well do you want them to make a plan before they can actually make an informed decision?

If I was told this was being done with the intention to divest denominational schools and abolish the ludicrous patronage system and information wouldn't be kept for over 30 years to achieve this I might think about allowing the information to be collected. No one knows what its for, even the teachers who commented on this thread.

meeeeh

I actually don't know how you are supposed to run a school system without standardized school forms and with every school collecting whatever they think they need. Surely knowing the population trends for schools you are financing is a common sense. If you want to locally finance the schools then fine but if the state is paying for it then at least they should know where and why money is going. School patronage is only one of the issues and properly following the population patterns it gives you a lot better idea about the pupils you are catering for. And then there is a whole area of child protection and making sure kids don't get lost in the system.

Edit: also following the Irish Times article, Data protection query is only regarding historical data which imo makes sense. Once child is out of school, there is no need to keep the personal data (name, pps) but very useful to keep population information for statistical purposes.

Ethel

I was given the form on the Tuesday, and told that all of the children had to have the form back in by Thursday signed so they could have a night off homework. I heard nothing of it beforehand, and having read through it I wasn't happy with it. Firstly, the length of time the information was going to be held. Secondly the way the form was set up, pushing you for consent. I circled no to the request to hold information in the different sections, but at the bottom it began the statement
"I consent to ___________"
Not "I do / do not consent to________"

It struck me as it was making my decision for me. So I left the parts circled no, went to the front page with my child's name on it, circled it, and wrote 'Do not consent" with my name beside it. It just doesn't sit right with me.

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

I actually don't know how you are supposed to run a school system without standardized school forms and with every school collecting whatever they think they need. Surely knowing the population trends for schools you are financing is a common sense. If you want to locally finance the schools then fine but if the state is paying for it then at least they should know where and why money is going. School patronage is only one of the issues and properly following the population patterns it gives you a lot better idea about the pupils you are catering for. And then there is a whole area of child protection and making sure kids don't get lost in the system.

Edit: also following the Irish Times article, Data protection query is only regarding historical data which imo makes sense. Once child is out of school, there is no need to keep the personal data (name, pps) but very useful to keep population information for statistical purposes.

Once again, these are all laudable aims. We have zero confirmation that this data will be used to address any of them.

meeeeh

I might be complete moron but what else is this supposed to mean:

The Department of Education and Skills will use pupils’ data on POD in Category 1 and some Category 2 data to establish the teaching posts and core funding to be allocated to each recognised primary school, for the following school year. For a pupil to be included in this calculation, they must be validly enrolled in a recognised school, in accordance with the requirements as specified in departmental circulars.

The Department also will use pupil data in categories 1 and 2 stored in POD for planning, policy and statistical purposes. In general, it does not use individual data for these purposes, but rather aggregates this data to meet its business needs. A small proportion of the data recorded by schools on POD is required for these purposes only.

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

I might be complete moron but what else is this supposed to mean:

Virtually nothing. What does religion and ethnicity have to do with planning for the future, when the school system currently legally allows schools to discriminate on religious grounds and set their own terms and conditions of entry? And the patronage system leaves schools to their own devices, in terms of day to day management. If both of those issues were addressed, data collection like this might have some purpose.

meeeeh

lazygal wrote: »

Virtually nothing. What does religion and ethnicity have to do with planning for the future, when the school system currently legally allows schools to discriminate on religious grounds and set their own terms and conditions of entry? And the patronage system leaves schools to their own devices, in terms of day to day management. If both of those issues were addressed, data collection like this might have some purpose.

actuallky quite a bit. For example if you start planning to provide school lunches which actually isn't that outrageous idea 9and some other countries do it). It is also complete nonsense to think that numbers of immigrants don't affect schools and that often supports in certain language are needed.

As for patronage I suspect the problem will be a lot more complex and even the most liberal politicians will balk at the cost of accruing the school buildings which as far as I know are mostly owned by different religious institutions. A lot more likely outcome will be religious schools to cater better for non religious kids or kids of other religions (due to supreme court judgements or department financing) at least until left does socialist revolution and nationalizes church property.

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

actuallky quite a bit. For example if you start planning to provide school lunches which actually isn't that outrageous idea 9and some other countries do it). It is also complete nonsense to think that numbers of immigrants don't affect schools and that often supports in certain language are needed.

As for patronage I suspect the problem will be a lot more complex and even the most liberal politicians will balk at the cost of accruing the school buildings which as far as I know are mostly owned by different religious institutions. A lot more likely outcome will be religious schools to cater better for non religious kids or kids of other religions (due to supreme court judgements or department financing) at least until left does socialist revolution and nationalizes church property.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Yes, because all us godless heathens are left leaning commies.

meeeeh

lazygal wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Yes, because all us godless heathens are left leaning commies.

Yeah considering I'm an economically right wing atheist that is exactly what I'm saying. It was a joke, however my point that it could be very expensive for the state unless church property is nationalized stands. Just in case people think it is only an ideological issue.