Primary school database

lazygal · 03-02-2015 7:59pm

I'd offer to pay the same as the funding as I said. What about those who homeschool, will they be required to access the database with the same information?

constance tench · 04-02-2015 1:17am

Orion wrote: »

This is illegal. I have written to my school expressly denying them permission to enter anything on the POD. If they do, or say they are going to anyway, I will be lodging a formal complaint with the ODPC.

That is the thing to do Orion...

The Department undermine/misunderstand the Independence of the Data Protection Commissioner.

She has stated on two occasions since November that she is not there to do a departments homework ...any advice given to a department is to advise what can be done, not what can't...

Write your formal complaint folks!

vicwatson · 05-02-2015 12:31pm

So, anyone got a standard letter to send back to school when not completing the form or allowing the school transfer data to DOE&S?

Orion · 05-02-2015 12:52pm

Here's the letter I sent. Feel free to edit/amend or use verbatim.

constance tench · 09-02-2015 10:37am

It's all making sense now...

...where DES priorities lie

http://dermotcasey.net/dept-of-education-and-primary-online-database/

pwurple · 09-02-2015 12:58pm

constance tench wrote: »

It's all making sense now...

...where DES priorities lie

http://dermotcasey.net/dept-of-education-and-primary-online-database/

It's to enable sex abuse cover-ups, according to some spud-headed twitter feed? That's one for the conspiracy theory forum?

I was thinking about the data we give out at the weekend. At this point, I've donated both umbilical cords (stem cells) and placenta's to medical studies, the children have been case studies in 3 published papers either as controls or because of the amount of data gathered during their lives with blood tests, food diaries and various studies we as a family have participated in. Since university I think we've participated in 15 trials or studies of some kind, some like BASELINE, loads of us in this forum are still involved with. Every part of me has been scanned and recorded in some way. This is way beyond what is being asked for here, and I understand it's well out of most people's comfort zone but I gave that information very willingly.

We provided all this information in order to achieve something, and it's very fundamental to my outlook. Our family want to improve the world we live in, to leave it in a better state than when we got here. Being open with information and requirements is another way to do this. So much is built on it. Advances in science and technology, civic planning...

There seems to be a disconnect in Ireland between the service providers and ourselves. I consider myself to be a part of this country, a fellow citizen, and will take part in information gathering because it's for us. For our own native use. Not some "other", some "them" like Tesco.

I understand the reservations, and I think the communication and rollout was woeful, but the intention to gather proper data is easily justified for a national body.

constance tench · 09-02-2015 3:02pm

pwurple wrote: »

It's to enable sex abuse cover-ups, according to some spud-headed twitter feed? That's one for the conspiracy theory forum?

I was thinking about the data we give out at the weekend. At this point, I've donated both umbilical cords (stem cells) and placenta's to medical studies, the children have been case studies in 3 published papers either as controls or because of the amount of data gathered during their lives with blood tests, food diaries and various studies we as a family have participated in. Since university I think we've participated in 15 trials or studies of some kind, some like BASELINE, loads of us in this forum are still involved with. Every part of me has been scanned and recorded in some way. This is way beyond what is being asked for here, and I understand it's well out of most people's comfort zone but I gave that information very willingly.

We provided all this information in order to achieve something, and it's very fundamental to my outlook. Our family want to improve the world we live in, to leave it in a better state than when we got here. Being open with information and requirements is another way to do this. So much is built on it. Advances in science and technology, civic planning...

There seems to be a disconnect in Ireland between the service providers and ourselves. I consider myself to be a part of this country, a fellow citizen, and will take part in information gathering because it's for us. For our own native use. Not some "other", some "them" like Tesco.

I understand the reservations, and I think the communication and rollout was woeful, but the intention to gather proper data is easily justified for a national body.

Such a disdainful, condescending post pwurple.

You appear to have no respect for a child's fundamental right to privacy
and know as much of Simon McGarr as you do of the implementation, structure or legality of POD...which is obviously nothing.

constance tench · 09-02-2015 3:10pm

pwurple wrote: »

It's to enable sex abuse cover-ups, according to some spud-headed twitter feed? That's one for the conspiracy theory forum?

I was thinking about the data we give out at the weekend. At this point, I've donated both umbilical cords (stem cells) and placenta's to medical studies, the children have been case studies in 3 published papers either as controls or because of the amount of data gathered during their lives with blood tests, food diaries and various studies we as a family have participated in. Since university I think we've participated in 15 trials or studies of some kind, some like BASELINE, loads of us in this forum are still involved with. Every part of me has been scanned and recorded in some way. This is way beyond what is being asked for here, and I understand it's well out of most people's comfort zone but I gave that information very willingly.

We provided all this information in order to achieve something, and it's very fundamental to my outlook. Our family want to improve the world we live in, to leave it in a better state than when we got here. Being open with information and requirements is another way to do this. So much is built on it. Advances in science and technology, civic planning...

There seems to be a disconnect in Ireland between the service providers and ourselves. I consider myself to be a part of this country, a fellow citizen, and will take part in information gathering because it's for us. For our own native use. Not some "other", some "them" like Tesco.

I understand the reservations, and I think the communication and rollout was woeful, but the intention to gather proper data is easily justified for a national body.

Yes, with your willing consent...

constance tench · 09-02-2015 3:59pm

In 2010 the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner warned the public that the DES was illegally collecting data.

The Commissioner's office says schools are gathering Personal Public Service numbers and other sensitive personal information from pupils on behalf of the Department, but many parents are unaware that the information is being passed on and the extent to which it may be used in the future.

The Office said it has been in ongoing communication with the Department of Education for two years now on this issue.

In recent years the Department of Education has been requesting, and in some cases requiring, primary- and second-level schools to gather and pass on private information related to pupils, such as their PPS number, medical card status, and membership of the Travelling Community.

The Commissioner says any personal data collected in this way and processed by the Department is being processed unlawfully under the Data Protection Acts.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0713/133252-education/

Orion · 09-02-2015 5:00pm

constance tench wrote: »

Such a disdainful, condescending post pwurple.

You appear to have no respect for a child's fundamental right to privacy
and know as much of Simon McGarr as you do of the implementation, structure or legality of POD...which is obviously nothing.

Attack the post not the poster. You might not agree with pwurple but if you don't, make an argument against what she posted and don't make personal attacks or resort to name calling.

Sunny Dayz · 10-02-2015 10:42pm

Son came home with this 2 page form today, was told they had to have it back in by this Thursday. There is scant information on it, what its for, why it's needed, how long the info will be held for and who has access to it. A lot of the information on this thread has not been supplied by the school. Not happy about this at all.

heldel00 · 11-02-2015 9:40pm

Ok I'm going to thread carefully here but hear me out!

I can understand people's objections to retention of information until individual has reached 30 years of age, ethnic status, religion etc but there would be huge benefits to having a database of all our primary school pupils.

We had a little person who enrolled mid-year in our school. After a few meetings principal relented and accepted pupil. (Pupil was not living in catchment area and mother admitted that they were only with us because schools in town were full.) They started in junior infants and from the get-go, attendance was very irregular, child had no English which caused them to be very teary and anxious, parent was constantly late collecting the child ...

Fast forward to now and the child has been absent for the past 15 days, consecutively. Contact numbers on enrolment form have been called, emails have been sent etc. Principal and class teacher have done all they can, from our end, to locate the child.
Only today we were saying how useful it would be to be able to contact DES and have them check database. Maybe they are enrolled elsewhere? Maybe family has left the country? Maybe something has happened? We just don't know at the minute and that makes us very uneasy.

If the DES had approached this differently we would have a fantastic, up-to-date, effective system comparable to what other EU countries have had for years and it would stop a lot of time being wasted on phone calls, emails etc by a teaching principal who is already overloaded with work as it is.

ShamoBuc · 13-02-2015 6:13pm

I understand how POD can be advantageous. My bug bear is the wishy washy nature of its set up. Parents can say no to schools..... But capitation may be withheld as a result. From the school year 16/17 schools can enter details previously not inputted eg. pps numbers whether parents give consent or not. Other details , religion etc parents still have an option to not give their consent. That's my understanding anyway.

I don't like the fact that parents will lose their right to consent to pps numbers being inputted. Or the number of departments and agencies that will have access to information. Or the need to hold this information for so long.
Its the whole set up that annoys me. The information being given out by schools is simply not enough. Parents should not have to Google POD.
I am hearing a growing number of parents that are getting mixed up with what they have to do and what they are entitled to do. I'm still not sure I understand all about POD myself.

Sunny Dayz · 13-02-2015 7:24pm

I read the dept of education website and wasn't very happy with what I could find. I rang my sons school and all they could say was that they didn't know much about it and that they were just instructed by the dept to send out the forms.

killbillvol2 · 13-02-2015 8:55pm

Can I just point out that ethnic or cultural background and religion are optional fields when the school is completing POD. My school has left both fields blank.

The reason for PPS number is as a unique identifier.

In practice, the system allows the school to "roll over" to a new school year at the end of the current year. In most cases this will move children on to the next class. Where children are leaving the school (end of 6th class or end of 2nd class in a junior school) I'm presuming that the school will enter the destination school. (I'm presuming because I haven't rolled over a year yet, no one has. The facility to enter destination school is on the system though, as is the school from which a child came). In this case, using the PPS number will allow the DES to check that Pupil 7761123N has actually transferred to the other school and, if not, to pass the information to the NEWB or whatever it's called now for follow up. A surprisingly large number of children fail to transfer from A to B.

I'm not getting into a debate about the rights or wrongs of this. I'm just stating that this is how it works as I seem to be the only person on this thread who has actually used it.

ShamoBuc · 13-02-2015 9:16pm

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Can I just point out that ethnic or cultural background and religion are optional fields when the school is completing POD. My school has left both fields blank.

Are you sure about that?

My understanding is that parents can give permission for them to be entered....and as such, this information should be entered.

If they do not consent then there is a box in each of those sections - no consent - that can be ticked by the school. But if consent is given, the information should be entered.

Or did all the parents not consent ( very much doubt)
Just curious.

killbillvol2 · 13-02-2015 10:08pm

POD.JPG

POD2.JPG

Yes. I'm sure. It's marked "Optional".

Orion · 13-02-2015 11:31pm

That's not the point. I've no problem as stated earlier with the concept. It's the extended retention of personal data that I have a major issue with. There is no reason to keep that data for as long as they want to keep it. Statistical data yes - full personal data no.

I've now given my school two weeks to respond confirming that no data will be entered on the pod regarding my children and no response from the principal. So over the weekend I'm making a formal complaint to the odpc.

heldel00 · 14-02-2015 2:15pm

Orion wrote: »

That's not the point. I've no problem as stated earlier with the concept. It's the extended retention of personal data that I have a major issue with. There is no reason to keep that data for as long as they want to keep it. Statistical data yes - full personal data no.

I've now given my school two weeks to respond confirming that no data will be entered on the pod regarding my children and no response from the principal. So over the weekend I'm making a formal complaint to the odpc.

Principal will more than likely only respond to you after a board of management meeting. That may not be for another couple of weeks depending on when their last one was. Maybe hold your horses!

killbillvol2 · 14-02-2015 2:35pm

Orion wrote: »

There is no reason to keep that data for as long as they want to keep it. Statistical data yes - full personal data no.

Agreed.

pwurple · 15-02-2015 12:06pm

What do people think is worrying about the PPS number being used as a unique identifier? Normal enough to me. I use the social security number in the US, and a national insurance number in the uk the same way. It's just to differentiate me from anyone else with my name... Or am I missing something?

I have pps numbers for people I've employed, tenants etc. And they all have mine. Apart from paying their taxes or registering them with the tenacy board like I'm supposed to do, is there any other way I can use these? Maybe I can profit from this and I don't know it yet.

constance tench · 16-02-2015 2:20am

pwurple wrote: »

What do people think is worrying about the PPS number being used as a unique identifier? Normal enough to me. I use the social security number in the US, and a national insurance number in the uk the same way. It's just to differentiate me from anyone else with my name... Or am I missing something?

I have pps numbers for people I've employed, tenants etc. And they all have mine. Apart from paying their taxes or registering them with the tenacy board like I'm supposed to do, is there any other way I can use these? Maybe I can profit from this and I don't know it yet.

Would you have any objections in posting your real name and/or/with your PPSN on Boards.ie? If so...why?

pwurple · 16-02-2015 8:33am

constance tench wrote: »

Would you have any objections in posting your real name and/or/with your PPSN on Boards.ie? If so...why?

LOL!

Same reason tesco doesn't know my toilet habits... Advertising and being plagued by cold callers.

Gonna answer mine now? Or did you attend primary school nameless in a potato sack and balaclava lest your teachers identify you?

constance tench · 16-02-2015 9:13am

pwurple wrote: »

LOL!

Same reason tesco doesn't know my toilet habits... Advertising and being plagued by cold callers.

Gonna answer mine now? Or did you attend primary school nameless in a potato sack and balaclava lest your teachers identify you?

You're presuming again.

How would you feel if I posted those details without your consent?

lazygal · 16-02-2015 9:56am

pwurple wrote: »

LOL!

Same reason tesco doesn't know my toilet habits... Advertising and being plagued by cold callers.

Gonna answer mine now? Or did you attend primary school nameless in a potato sack and balaclava lest your teachers identify you?

What is the obsession with Tesco? Not everyone who has issues with handing over their child's ethic and religious details is a devoted Tesco clubcard user. Lol.

pwurple · 16-02-2015 10:52am

constance tench wrote: »

You're presuming again.

How would you feel if I posted those details without your consent?

What are you rambling on about now?

The only thing I'm presuming is that you can't answer a straight question with anything other than yet another inane hypothetical.

amirite?

edit, nevermind... welcome to my ignore list! Weird how so many on this thread are already members. I must have some aversion to conspiracy theorists.

constance tench · 16-02-2015 3:04pm

pwurple wrote: »

What are you rambling on about now?

The only thing I'm presuming is that you can't answer a straight question with anything other than yet another inane hypothetical.

amirite?

edit, nevermind... welcome to my ignore list! Weird how so many on this thread are already members. I must have some aversion to conspiracy theorists.

No.

Just to summarise...

You are advocating a change in the law so that data collected for one purpose can then be used for multiple unknown purposes without consent.

Your rational is, 'trust them because... they're the government'.

Your assessment on a fundamental right to privacy is... we are all equally inferiour, just some of us are more equally inferiour than others.

constance tench · 16-02-2015 3:38pm

Something for data controllers to remember:

Ignorantia legis neminem excusat

Ignorance of the law excuses no one.

meeeeh · 16-02-2015 4:07pm

We got it. You know a latin phrase that has nothing to do with anything.

Now did any data commission come back that they are in the breach of anything. And no five years old articles don't tell us anything about current situation.

ShamoBuc · 16-02-2015 4:53pm

constance tench wrote: »

Something for data controllers to remember:

Ignorantia legis neminem excusat

Ignorance of the law excuses no one.

Caveat Emptor......oh wait....that has nothing to do with this thread either!

Received the form from the school but haven't sent it back yet.
Still can't understand it properly though.
The school are asking parents to fill out the form and return it. The school can enter all the details they have to without parental permission though. The only sections they need permission for are the sections that have an 'optional' heading anyway - am I right in saying that ? So as a poster outlined, by leaving the optional ones out, why ask parents to fill out a form in the first place? Am I missing something?

Primary school database

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