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Primary school database

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    #152
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    The DPC didn't say it was legal. In fact they are investigating the retention. They made a statement a few weeks ago saying that they are not there to tell organisations (including govt departments) what can be done. They are there to enforce the law if a complaint is made. So basically they said that the DES putting on the questionaire that that DPC ok-ed the request is bull$hit - they didn't.


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    #153
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    Just to add to the impression of competence given off by the DES: the form apparently doesn't include all ethnic backgrounds covered by the census so the DES are asking schools to send the form back to parents with more options! We won't be bothering parents with it again.


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    #154
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    I noticed that as soon as I got it. If you're non-white for example you have two options - Black African or Other Black background. No there are no black Irish according to the DES it seems. :rolleyes:


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    #155
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Orion wrote: »
    I noticed that as soon as I got it. If you're non-white for example you have two options - Black African or Other Black background. No there are no black Irish according to the DES it seems. :rolleyes:

    I'm uneasy about the whole skintone thing..
    the dept said they were going to rectify it and put in 'black irish'... I mean ffs what does this have to do with resources... what if your mother is black and your dad is chinese?? Yellow/black Irish!! (is that not racist!)

    For a finish i've come to the conclusion that the dept. and any other dept (but not semi-state!) should be able to share info. I dunno how many times we've been written to and asked to provide proof of address etc.
    Going between soc. welfare/revenue/health/education should be a breeze but each time its send in proof of identity... just let me go online each time and authorise a request for proof of identity with a pin.. or a swipe card in situe.

    This was always a complaint about sharing data between depts. but suddenly when a first step is taken then people get antsy. Oooo the government knows where I live... big swing.

    Tescos know how much I earn, how many in family and their age range, what I eat, drinking habits,when I go on holidays, family birthdays, weddings,births, marriages, deaths, car insurance, house insurance, how much fuel I consume, the car I drive, where I go,all phone data, pet insurance, holiday insurance, how much gas/electricity I consume... So why aint I complaining??

    So f@@k it, the govt can have my PPS and childrens pps ... because they have it already, but the insane bureaucracy assumes they don't.

    All the govt. needs to do is give us some loyalty points towards tax credits and we'd be in like Flynn.


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    #156
    constance tench
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭constance tench


    Data Commissioner, Helen Dixon:
    …public bodies will mention quite deliberately that ‘this was done in consultation with the Data Protection Commissioner’. I suppose what they are trying to do is to give confidence to data subjects (citizens) that they have gone through a rigorous process and an analysis and that they believe what they are proposing is lawful.

    https://www.digitalrights.ie/data-privacy-day-three-hot-button-issues-ireland/


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    #157
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    constance tench wrote: »
    Data Commissioner, Helen Dixon:



    https://www.digitalrights.ie/data-privacy-day-three-hot-button-issues-ireland/

    If you're going to quote something choose the more relevant quote:
    On January 8th, the Minister for Education reassured the public “that the Department had consulted with the Data Protection Commissioner.” The Data Commissioner, however, stated on the 26th of January “…there’s an inadequate explanation of why they need it and why they need to hold it for as long as they are holding it.”


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    #158
    niallb
    Registered Users Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭niallb


    killbillvol2 wrote: »
    Can I just point out that ethnic or cultural background and religion are optional fields when the school is completing POD. My school has left both fields blank.
    ...
    I'm not getting into a debate about the rights or wrongs of this. I'm just stating that this is how it works as I seem to be the only person on this thread who has actually used it.

    Hi. Great to get some feedback from somebody with direct experience of this.
    • Is it possible that schools with a particular stated ethos (for example Catholic) will be marked in as 100% matching that ethos?
    • Alternatively, would it be correct for any school not filling in these values to not have any of their pupils counted in the percentage of (e.g.) Catholics in education?

    Our kids attend a school with a Catholic ethos, though they themselves are not Catholic.
    I currently have them at home for an hour because their schoolmates go to mass every Wednesday morning and there is no other staff member who can supervise them at the time.

    We received a simple form from our school requesting only our kids' PPS numbers, and I have some concern over what gets put into religion in the database. I have a good relationship with the school and will raise it with the principal, but interested in hearing a wider opinion on it.


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    #159
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    niallb wrote: »
    Hi. Great to get some feedback from somebody with direct experience of this.
    • Is it possible that schools with a particular stated ethos (for example Catholic) will be marked in as 100% matching that ethos?
    • Alternatively, would it be correct for any school not filling in these values to not have any of their pupils counted in the percentage of (e.g.) Catholics in education?

    Our kids attend a school with a Catholic ethos, though they themselves are not Catholic.
    I currently have them at home for an hour because their schoolmates go to mass every Wednesday morning and there is no other staff member who can supervise them at the time.

    We received a simple form from our school requesting only our kids' PPS numbers, and I have some concern over what gets put into religion in the database. I have a good relationship with the school and will raise it with the principal, but interested in hearing a wider opinion on it.

    They may be leaving it blank, as we are.

    The next issue is what the DES will do when we upload all the data with the optional fields left blank. Some penpusher may be very upset and come back seeking more information.


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    #160
    constance tench
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭constance tench


    Dept of Education refuses FOI on POD as ‘not in the public interest’


    http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2015/03/02/dept-of-education-refuses-foi-on-pod-as-not-in-the-public-interest/


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    #161
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    "The Department has yet to finalise its deliberations and such release could prejudice the Department’s ability to properly conclude those deliberations"

    So they haven't finished deliberating on it but have given schools until this month to upload the records. Left hand/right hand?


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    #162
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    There's a circular issuing this week on this. Let's see how much of it they row back.


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    #163
    constance tench
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭constance tench


    Message to Principles published here:

    http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2015/03/03/department-of-education-issue-new-water-muddying-message-re-pod-to-schools/


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    #164
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    It's nonsense. They haven't changed anything really except the ethnic categories. And even then just added "Irish" to Black and Asian.


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    #165
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Yes, and it doesn't help that they still haven't explained why the information on ethnic background is necessary for the allocation of resources. Why would staff be allocated simply on the basis of the ethnic and racial profile of the pupils in a given school?


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    #166
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    "From the 2016/2017 academic year, it is intended that teacher allocations and capitation grants will be made on the basis of POD data"
    Blackmail.


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    #167
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Orion wrote: »
    It's nonsense. They haven't changed anything really except the ethnic categories. And even then just added "Irish" to Black and Asian.

    What the heck does black mean? Honestly!
    Do they have pink for irish , or yellow for asian?
    All these colours are just racial stereotypes!


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    #168
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    "From the 2016/2017 academic year, it is intended that teacher allocations and capitation grants will be made on the basis of POD data"
    Blackmail.

    Well schools need to tell the department where to go. Why should a child's education funding be affected because his or her parents don't wish to share personal information?


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    #169
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    lazygal wrote: »
    Well schools need to tell the department where to go.
    It has been proven time and time again that the DES will listen to parents far more easily than to parents, schools are under immense financial pressure as it is, if capitation is lost, then most schools would not be able to afford heating, much less anything else.


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    #170
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    It has been proven time and time again that the DES will listen to parents far more easily than to parents, schools are under immense financial pressure as it is, if capitation is lost, then most schools would not be able to afford heating, much less anything else.

    Do faith schools not get funding from the religious organisations that control them? I'm sure charities connected to the various churches wouldn't want schools to go without seeing as how they don't want to cede control of schools.

    As a parent who has engaged with the department of education and skills my experience has been that it has no interest in dealing with the concerns of parents and push everything back in the hands of schools management and patrons.


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    #171
    ShamoBuc
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭ShamoBuc


    lazygal wrote: »
    Well schools need to tell the department where to go. Why should a child's education funding be affected because his or her parents don't wish to share personal information?

    I thought schools can enter all the details onto POD - without parental consent- apart from ethnicity/religion. Given those 2 are optional anyway, how will funding be affected?


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    #172
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    lazygal wrote: »
    Yes, and it doesn't help that they still haven't explained why the information on ethnic background is necessary for the allocation of resources. Why would staff be allocated simply on the basis of the ethnic and racial profile of the pupils in a given school?

    They wouldn't. That section is for statistical purposes and is optional.


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    #173
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    This whole thing was clearly not thought out and launched on a wing and a prayer. It should now be withdrawn and reassessed. Today's email was a stopgap measure to gloss over some of the many issues which have been highlighted.

    Whoever thought that the following was clarifying the issue must be from another planet:

    "Schools that have not yet sought parental/guardian consent for the collection of this data should ensure that they use the wording as per the revised version of the suggested consent form.

    Schools that have already secured parental/guardian consent – Where a parent has raised a concern around the ethnic and cultural background question please inform them that the new version of the form will be available for downloading from the Department’s website. A parent wishing to amend what they originally submitted, may return the updated form to the school.

    If a new form is submitted, schools will only need to amend the original input if there is a change in category".

    They haven't addressed the most important issue around data protection at all.

    They're clearly hoping to gather as much information as possible before the Data Protection Commissioner slaps them on the wrist or makes them start again.


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    #174
    Sunny Dayz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭Sunny Dayz


    Haven't heard a dickie-bird out of my son's school since. I haven't sent back the form, I plan on doing so but only entering the information I am happy with, but I literally haven't had a chance. The school haven't even come back looking for the form.


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    #175
    Sunny Dayz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭Sunny Dayz


    lazygal wrote: »
    Well schools need to tell the department where to go. Why should a child's education funding be affected because his or her parents don't wish to share personal information?


    The schools won't do that when it's the Department giving them the funding. When I had queried my son's school about the form, what was it for, what did it mean, why did they need that info, data security etc - they could answer none of it only that the Department told them to do it and they are doing just that!


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    #176
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    I've now given my school over a month to respond to my letter denying permission to upload my children's details. I've just sent a courtesy mail to the chair of the BOM to let him know as a courtesy that I'm now forwarding the communications and lack of responses to the ODPC and asking they investigate.


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    #177
    friedswans
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭friedswans


    YOU ALL SHOULD NOW IT IS NOT ABOUT QUESTIONS BEING ASKED ON THAT FORM, IT IS ABOUT PARENT'S SIGNATURE. DON'T ALLOW YOUR CHILD TO BE INVIGILATED FOR THE NEXT 25 YEARS.


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    #178
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Sunny Dayz wrote: »
    The schools won't do that when it's the Department giving them the funding. When I had queried my son's school about the form, what was it for, what did it mean, why did they need that info, data security etc - they could answer none of it only that the Department told them to do it and they are doing just that!
    That's where my akward side would come out and I'd tell the school I'd match the funding allocated for my child. If indeed the Department would actually follow through on that. The Department tells schools to do loads of things they ignore, so I don't see why they are so bothered about complying with this.


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    #179
    constance tench
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭constance tench


    Sunny Dayz wrote: »
    Haven't heard a dickie-bird out of my son's school since. I haven't sent back the form, I plan on doing so but only entering the information I am happy with, but I literally haven't had a chance. The school haven't even come back looking for the form.


    That's probably because they've entered the information anyway without your consent, as per the flawed circular.


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    #180
    Sunny Dayz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭Sunny Dayz


    constance tench wrote: »
    That's probably because they've entered the information anyway without your consent, as per the flawed circular.



    They haven't much to enter. They didn't have his PPS pre-entered on the form they gave us so I'm guessing they don't have that and they have an old address included.


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    #181
    constance tench
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭constance tench


    Sunny Dayz wrote: »
    They haven't much to enter. They didn't have his PPS pre-entered on the form they gave us so I'm guessing they don't have that and they have an old address included.

    So your school are filling in details for parents
    to then input those details without consent!?:mad:


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