Legal standpoint (poaching)

foxin

HI,

Bit of advice from any informed members or any gardai present. Recently a lad was caught poaching in our local club sanctury. Now there wasnt a sign on the gate into the land as the land is actually a womans garden that is just overgrown but still within the sanctury borders. When she questioned him he was after shooting a hen pheasant on her property no more than 100m from the back door of her house and maybe 80m from the road. Basically she wants to know can she put a "stay" on his licence that the next time he applies for renewal it will be rejected and his guns confisicated or will she have to go to court with the matter?

any pointers or help from club reps that have been in simiar situations is greatly appreciated.

Sparks

You wouldn't wait for the next renewal like that; you go directly to the NWPS/Gardai and they pull the licence there and then.

meathstevie

Regardless of the permission issue he shot a hen pheasant. They've no open season unless they're hunted under licence granted by NPWS which applies mainly to commercially ran shoots who stock the shoots with vast quantities of reared birds.

Distances from roads etc etc are irrelevant in this case. If the owner of the land did not give permission to shoot on it and the chap entered it without the owners' consent and shot any wild animal, open season or not, he was poaching.

It's up to anyone who wants to shoot a piece of land to seek permission. Absence of direct denial does not equate permission.

Unless the gun club owns the sanctuary or the sporting rights on it signs mean nothing in court. Those signs are only relevant to members of the club who do or don't abide by them.

homerhop

meathstevie wrote: »

Unless the gun club owns the sanctuary or the sporting rights on it signs mean nothing in court. Those signs are only relevant to members of the club who do or don't abide by them.

That's not true. A club secretary can bring a case against anyone caught poaching or who does not have permission from the land owner on lands sign posted by a club. The lands have to be sign posted and notification in the local paper stating lands the club has permission on.

BattleCorp

You are probably into a "his word" versus "her word" scenario here. Very difficult to prove.

I'd report it all the same.

foxin

Thanks for the replies its much appreciated i didnt know about the club secretary being able to do that as long as it is posted. Also as regards the he said she said she shouted that much at him on the side of the road that the neighbours came out to see what was wrong and she held up traffic for around 15 minutes so there was around 20 witnesses to the incident also

meathstevie

homerhop wrote: »

That's not true. A club secretary can bring a case against anyone caught poaching or who does not have permission from the land owner on lands sign posted by a club. The lands have to be sign posted and notification in the local paper stating lands the club has permission on.

Anyone out shooting on lands where they have permission and encounters someone poaching can do that. Just as a you would be entitled to enquire after someone's identity you encounter on hunting on land where you are lawfully hunting.

There is no special legal status for NARGC clubs or club secretaries in the various bits of wildlife and firearms legislation. The reason why a club secretary would be the person to start legal action is because he would speak for the club. When push comes to shove the individual who encountered the poacher ( when it wasn't the secretary )will have to provide evidence as courts do not deal in second hand accounts of events.

Unless the club has sole permission or owns sporting rights on land no amount of signage can stop another person with permission to hunt that land. A gun club is just like any other club, limitations and regulations other than those imposed by law only apply to club members.

meathstevie

foxin wrote: »

Thanks for the replies its much appreciated i didnt know about the club secretary being able to do that as long as it is posted. Also as regards the he said she said she shouted that much at him on the side of the road that the neighbours came out to see what was wrong and she held up traffic for around 15 minutes so there was around 20 witnesses to the incident also

Remains to be seen what they witnessed, the act of poaching in some way or other or the shouting match after.

The simplest thing to do is for the landowner to contact the local Garda station and resolve the issue that way. If she knows the poacher or has identified his vehicle for example it should make things fairly straightforward.

Scrappy600

meathstevie wrote: »

Anyone out shooting on lands where they have permission and encounters someone poaching can do that. Just as a you would be entitled to enquire after someone's identity you encounter on hunting on land where you are lawfully hunting.

There is no special legal status for NARGC clubs or club secretaries in the various bits of wildlife and firearms legislation. The reason why a club secretary would be the person to start legal action is because he would speak for the club. When push comes to shove the individual who encountered the poacher ( when it wasn't the secretary )will have to provide evidence as courts do not deal in second hand accounts of events.

Unless the club has sole permission or owns sporting rights on land no amount of signage can stop another person with permission to hunt that land. A gun club is just like any other club, limitations and regulations other than those imposed by law only apply to club members.

You can enquire away, anyone can ask a question, but what right or entitlement do you have to demand it? What legal power are you relying on here? Shakey ground at best demanding anything of anybody, if you've a doubt contact the landowner or the local garda station if you suspect a trespasser but you've no legal right to demand anything of that person.....

homerhop

Scrappy600 wrote: »

You can enquire away, anyone can ask a question, but what right or entitlement do you have to demand it? What legal power are you relying on here? Shakey ground at best demanding anything of anybody, if you've a doubt contact the landowner or the local garda station if you suspect a trespasser but you've no legal right to demand anything of that person.....

Yes you legally can if you are the land owner or have sporting rights to the ground. Section 44 of the wildlife act

(2) Where a person who is neither the owner nor the occupier of land carries on the land a firearm, other weapon or device (or a part thereof) described in paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of this section, any of the following persons may demand of him (and take when given) his name and address, namely:

(a) the owner or occupier of the land or a person authorised by him to exercise on his behalf the powers exercisable by such owner or occupier under this section,

(b) a person who is entitled to enjoy sporting rights over the land or some other person so authorised by him to exercise on his behalf the powers exercisable by him under this section,

(c) the holder, or a person deemed pursuant to section 29 (5) of this Act to be the holder, of a licence granted under that section;

Scrappy600

homerhop wrote: »

Yes you legally can if you are the land owner or have sporting rights to the ground. Section 44 of the wildlife act

(2) Where a person who is neither the owner nor the occupier of land carries on the land a firearm, other weapon or device (or a part thereof) described in paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of this section, any of the following persons may demand of him (and take when given) his name and address, namely:

(a) the owner or occupier of the land or a person authorised by him to exercise on his behalf the powers exercisable by such owner or occupier under this section,

(b) a person who is entitled to enjoy sporting rights over the land or some other person so authorised by him to exercise on his behalf the powers exercisable by him under this section,

(c) the holder, or a person deemed pursuant to section 29 (5) of this Act to be the holder, of a licence granted under that section;

Every day's a school day, fair play. Stand corrected.

meathstevie

Scrappy600 wrote: »

Every day's a school day, fair play. Stand corrected.

Isn't it just; a Garda, a NPWS Ranger, a landowner/representative of same and a fellow lawful hunter are the people legally entitled to ask for your identity when you're out hunting. I honestly don't know if it's a separate offence not disclosing to the latter two categories.

homerhop

here is a link to the whole piece

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1976/en/act/pub/0039/sec0044.html

thehound

how long since this happened i would say the evidence is well gone by now she could still contact garda he might have word with lad is he only starting to shoot could be best lesson he ever learned get him to apologies to the women get him to joine the gunclub teach him the do,s and don,t of shooting would not like to see any young lad loose his gun

deeksofdoom

I don't know is it that easy to tell people the do's and don'ts of shooting.

Some fellahs are so ****ing thick it doesn't matter what you tell them they just don't get it.

I had a guy in my club giving out to me in November about a friend of nine who is also member of my club saying how he was seen out on the 1st of November with a non member of the club and that it was a disgrace, he should be ****ed out of the club etc, etc,..... I had to confront your man about it, he was entitled to bring a friend shooting once a month but his timing was a bit off, so I just told him to shoot away; but don't bring yer man back again, use a bit of cop on in future.

Next thing the guy who was doing all the complaining gets thrown off some land for shooting beside some farmers sheds, then a few weeks later the same guy is caught poaching in a sanctuary in a neighbouring club, Guards, Landowners and the neighbouring club all get involved.

This is a man with 40+ years of experience shooting and thinks he's in the right no matter how wrong he is. I don't know lads, but there's no talking to some people, best thing for them is their guns get taken off them before they do any harm.

Hunter456

a farmer around here said to me he dose not mind people shooting on his lands because its mostly local lads that shoot it anyway and we all look after it one thing he did say if he found evidence of digging and he wouldn't be impressed.