Claire Byrne Live (RTE1)

Zulu

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think people want to see something in stone before they decide to give the power ...

pinkypinky wrote: »

This is simply not possible with the 8th Amendment in place.

I'm not even sure they need something in stone. Personally I wouldn't, but as I understand it the current proposal (draft) is too liberal - although I will stress I've yet to read it myself.

drunkmonkey

pinkypinky wrote: »

This is simply not possible with the 8th Amendment in place.

They could list the special circumstances and cabinet could agree, they've already draft agreed some things why not agree it all before asking for people to vote.
The 8th isn't stopping them doing that. They've already stated some things that will be allowed. Why not do the same and say what won't be allowed.

drunkmonkey

Zulu wrote: »

I'm not even sure they need something in stone. Personally I wouldn't, but as I understand it the current proposal (draft) is too liberal - although I will stress I've yet to read it myself.

It doesn't get any more liberal, there is not 1 guarantee the people can be given right now.

Mary Lou spoke on behalf of every politician last night giving guarantees. I think she was very wrong to do that as she knows right well the draft can and will change.

M.Cribben

Zulu wrote: »

And if it's defeated it will be our governments fault for making the initial proposed legislation to liberal. The smarter way would have been to make it as restrictive as possible and to ensure the 8th is repealed - capture as many of the boarder line voters; capture as much of the middle ground. Then once it's out of the constitution, in a few more years, the legislation could be easily revisited or expanded.

But unfortunately that's not whats on the table, and it's going to be costly.

My sentiments exactly.

And it's something the Yes campaign don't seem to comprehend.

They argue this referendum is unrelated to the proposed legislation, because as you outlined the liberal nature of the proposed legislation is of concern to voters in favor of repealing to allow abortion in certain cases (e.g. FFA.) but not unrestricted up to 12 weeks.

The Yes campaign are not stupid, they know this - hence the attempt to persuade people not to focus on the legislation. Just focus on the constitutional amendment.

Repealing the 8th and bringing in restrictive legislation initially to protect the life of the unborn - would have given a much higher chance of repeal passing. But the Yes campaign would never have accepted this.

Either way I think based on opinion poll, the 8th will be repealed. But the government could have handled the campaign a lot better. Uncertainty breeds fear.

drunkmonkey

M.Cribben wrote: »

Either way I think based on opinion poll, the 8th will be repealed

Don't forget Baldy Sean and Norris were going to be president and Hillary was going to walk in.

Amirani

Just watched last night's debate. It was cringeworthy to watch at times, largely owing to the format as well as some of the participants.

Having a situation whereby members of the audience can shout and cheer at will, and make completely unchallenged statements is not conducive to positive and informed debate on the issues. Either they should have went with no audience at all or they should have had a silent audience with pre-approved and balanced questions. The focus should be on the panel.

As regards the panel; Orla O'Connor was a bit of a passenger, but I don't think the format suited her. Her company was 2 medical experts as well as 3 other people who debate/argue as a profession, so it's somewhat understandable. Her comments were fair though and she did not descend to petty debating. Mary Lou provided some good information on the legislative process, but did come out with some clangers along the way as is custom ("I'm pro-life"). Boylan was obviously very informed on the subject and one of the main tragedies of the debate was that he was constantly shouted over and not allowed to participate more.

No side; Steen was the standout and performed well. I disagree with her entirely on the issue, but she handled the topic well and made plenty of good points. The FF TD (whose name escapes me) was quite lightweight in her contributions I felt and added little of value. Monaghan was worth listening to for the most part, despite the differences in opinion, but his attempts to discredit Boylan, bordering on insecurity were incredibly petty. The "you should go back to school" line directed at Boylan was the lowest ebb of any of the contributors - complete rubbish and completely disrespectful.

Overall it was probably a win for the No side I think. This I think was driven far more by the format and handling of the debate than by any great contributions. If this is the standard of debate RTÉ are aiming for, I'd rather they didn't bother.

M.Cribben

Pathetic scaremongering from An Taoiseach.

http://www.thejournal.ie/varadkar-abortion-pills-prosecution-4013432-May2018/

He's basically saying if the vote doesn't go his way, we'll throw you in jail by enforcing a law that has never been enforced in the history of the State. Democracy in action.

drunkmonkey

Anything to distract from his failure as Minister for Health.

Roger_007

M.Cribben wrote: »

Pathetic scaremongering from An Taoiseach.

http://www.thejournal.ie/varadkar-abortion-pills-prosecution-4013432-May2018/

He's basically saying if the vote doesn't go his way, we'll throw you in jail by enforcing a law that has never been enforced in the history of the State. Democracy in action.

I don't think it's scaremongering at all. If anyone reports a woman to the Gardai for procuring an abortion illegally by taking pills or by any other means, the Gardai will be forced to act.
I do not understand the attitude of the NO side who want abortion to remain illegal, (they regard it as murder), but who stop short of calling for the charging of any woman with procuring an abortion. Either they want the law enforced or they don't. If they don't want the law enforced they should not be campaigning against repeal of the 8th.
What is the point of having a law that nobody is willing to enforce.

BarryD2

M.Cribben wrote: »

Either way I think based on opinion poll, the 8th will be repealed. But the government could have handled the campaign a lot better. Uncertainty breeds fear.

I'm not so sure. A lot depends on the younger vote and whether it comes out as apparently happened in the 'marriage rights' vote. The tactics of the Repeal side are broadly soft focus and are aiming to appeal to the dealing with the rigours of everyday life, not some moral pinpoint.

Tactics of the anti Repeal are to emote & disgust, emote & disgust. Rinse & repeat.

Last nights 'debate' played fully into the hands of the No and gave them ample opportunities to emote, disgust & twist simple propositions. It's difficult to counter that with reasoned & considerate argument. I'm no great fan of Mary Lou but I thought she was as strong and clear as she could be. And that's what people want from politicians.

splinter65

Jacqueline Attractive Napkin wrote: »

That "lady" was a member of our prestigious parliament!

That was no lady.

vin33

BarryD2 wrote: »

Overbearing, pontificating and interrupting. Avoiding answering challenging questions & cases, deflecting, obfuscating, mangling meanings, misinterpreting - that's what came across to me as a viewer. I'd call that just switching people off and against you.

I've no issue with people who are wont to keep the 8th at all. But I do have a major issue with the tactics employed by some of same.

I don't get this! You do what you have to win. Neither side is immune from twisting the truth/argument or exaggerating.

From this debate, I agree with other commentators, I thought Maria Steen was by far the best speaker, very impressive. Put her points across very well and was well drilled. Mary Lou also obviously a great speaker but didn't appear as well prepared last night but was able to think on her feet.
I've listened to Dr Boylan a few times before and he normally does better but he came across as very arrogant last night, the stereotypical medical consultant talking down to you. The No obstetrician was doing well until he suggested Dr Boylan go back to school. FF TD on the No side and other woman on the Yes side didn't contribute much.

Mattie McGrath and Brid Smith both embarrassing. Don't know who was more.
Ronan Mullen wouldn't convince me of anything and was the same again last night.
Aodhan O'Riordan, I'm not a fan of his pontificating in general ever, but he came across well last night.
Claire Byrne, I thought was fair to both sides.

All that said, I don't see how the Yes side can lose this. Way too much of the establishment (politicians & media) promoting Yes.

But, I don't get the same vibe around as was the case for the Equality Referendum, so who knows.

Yer Da sells Avon

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I'm assuming TV3 will have a debate coming up before the vote as well, if they have the 2 teletubbies Cooper and Yates fighting to ask questions as well as the opposing sides it will be another mess unfortunately.

Pat Kenny, I think. I expect he'll do a better job than Clare Byrne. Certainly couldn't be any worse. I have no idea whether she's biased in favour of retaining the 8th, and was unable to hide it, or simply tried too way hard with the whole 'balance' thing. Either way, I don't think I've ever seen a presenter with so little control over what was happening around them.

RabbleRouser2k

vin33 wrote: »

I don't get this! You do what you have to win. Neither side is immune from twisting the truth/argument or exaggerating.

From this debate, I agree with other commentators, I thought Maria Steen was by far the best speaker, very impressive. Put her points across very well and was well drilled. Mary Lou also obviously a great speaker but didn't appear as well prepared last night but was able to think on her feet.
I've listened to Dr Boylan a few times before and he normally does better but he came across as very arrogant last night, the stereotypical medical consultant talking down to you. The No obstetrician was doing well until he suggested Dr Boylan go back to school. FF TD on the No side and other woman on the Yes side didn't contribute much.

Mattie McGrath and Brid Smith both embarrassing. Don't know who was more.
Ronan Mullen wouldn't convince me of anything and was the same again last night.
Aodhan O'Riordan, I'm not a fan of his pontificating in general ever, but he came across well last night.
Claire Byrne, I thought was fair to both sides.

All that said, I don't see how the Yes side can lose this. Way too much of the establishment (politicians & media) promoting Yes.

But, I don't get the same vibe around as was the case for the Equality Referendum, so who knows.

Normally I would say this is the Yes side's to lose, but unfortunately, much was said about the Lisbon Treaty and the Nice treaty, and then people had to vote again when those were lost.

Hillary was meant to win as well, and Alan Kelly from Labour was meant to lose.

My mum was listening to the radio this morning-and the host and guests were criticizing how the debate was handled. Shouting, clapping and so forth-he even played segments of the show to highlight what he meant. Absolutely dreadful performance by Claire and co.

Weeks back, Claire did a discussion on Veganism vs Omnivorism...it was horrendously handled, and when I heard she was going to do a debate about the 8th, I thought 'Oh boy, this isn't going to go well'.
It went worse than I expected.

M.Cribben wrote: »

My sentiments exactly.

And it's something the Yes campaign don't seem to comprehend.

They argue this referendum is unrelated to the proposed legislation, because as you outlined the liberal nature of the proposed legislation is of concern to voters in favor of repealing to allow abortion in certain cases (e.g. FFA.) but not unrestricted up to 12 weeks.

The Yes campaign are not stupid, they know this - hence the attempt to persuade people not to focus on the legislation. Just focus on the constitutional amendment.

Repealing the 8th and bringing in restrictive legislation initially to protect the life of the unborn - would have given a much higher chance of repeal passing. But the Yes campaign would never have accepted this.

Either way I think based on opinion poll, the 8th will be repealed. But the government could have handled the campaign a lot better. Uncertainty breeds fear.

I think Leo V. is, quite rightly, worried about how his 'reign' will go if it loses. It wasn't too long after Biffo's losing a major referendum that the wheels came off, the honeymoon was over, and focus grew on his role as Taoiseach and trust in his party-which trickled down until he had next-to-no support.
With recent focus on the health system, and the screwup in the smear tests, (which he, among others, has been cited as ignoring) as well as focus on Mental Health (he cut the MH Budget during his time as Health minister) he can't afford another PR f***-up.

I know a few folks who are on the fence, who want to vote to repeal, but who find that they are worried about voting for a 'blank document'. We had more understanding about the Marriage referendum than we did about the Repeal/ Love both campaigns.

Edit: Prime Time will be doing another discussion/ debate-hope they handle it much better. Maybe undo the screwups Claire Byrne made.
She really has shown her weaknesses in regards to politics/ debate this past season.

blanch152

M.Cribben wrote: »

Pathetic scaremongering from An Taoiseach.

http://www.thejournal.ie/varadkar-abortion-pills-prosecution-4013432-May2018/

He's basically saying if the vote doesn't go his way, we'll throw you in jail by enforcing a law that has never been enforced in the history of the State. Democracy in action.

Well, if the country vote NO, they are endorsing a law that imprisons women who have abortions. How can he ignore the expressed democratic will of the people?

Yer Da sells Avon

M.Cribben wrote: »

He's basically saying if the vote doesn't go his way, we'll throw you in jail by enforcing a law that has never been enforced in the history of the State. Democracy in action.

If the state views the life of a foetus as equal to that of a woman, then is it not legally correct that someone who kills the former should receive equal punishment to someone who kills the latter? If you're voting to retain the 8th Amendment, that is exactly what you're voting for.

RabbleRouser2k

Turns out many individuals complained the CB Live 'debate'...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/terminations-group-felt-ignored-jeered-during-rt%C3%A9-abortion-debate-1.3496485

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/rt-receives-complaints-about-claire-byrne-live-abortion-referendum-debate-36909449.html

https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/claire-byrne-live-abortion-debate-12542025

drunkmonkey

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Turns out many individuals complained the CB Live 'debate'...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/terminations-group-felt-ignored-jeered-during-rt%C3%A9-abortion-debate-1.3496485

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/rt-receives-complaints-about-claire-byrne-live-abortion-referendum-debate-36909449.html

https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/claire-byrne-live-abortion-debate-12542025

It's all the SJW's on the internet, venting from the Keyboard even though there was plenty of whopping and clapping from them.
The Yes side lost fair and square last night, now there accusing RTE of being biased as they should have came out on top.

650,000 watched last night of course there's going to be complaints, the number of complaints is not known and neither is it known from which side but the media have skewed it in such a way as it to appear that the Yes side were wronged, they weren't they shot themselves in the foot with poor speakers and rude supporters. Claire couldn't have fixed that for them.

There's going to be more debates, you can be full sure the yes side are going to trot out Colm O'Gorman next. The probably won't let Maria on against him.
What will we be hearing them, great show, rte done a great job etc.

vicwatson

drunkmonkey wrote: »

650,000 watched last night

You forgot a part - "In total 650,000 viewers tuned in at some point during the programme"

drunkmonkey

vicwatson wrote: »

You forgot a part - "In total 650,000 viewers tuned in at some point during the programme"

Probably more when you add in Rte player today.

Fann Linn

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's all the SJW's on the internet, venting from the Keyboard even though there was plenty of whopping and clapping from them.
The Yes side lost fair and square last night, now there accusing RTE of being biased as they should have came out on top.

650,000 watched last night of course there's going to be complaints, the number of complaints is not known and neither is it known from which side but the media have skewed it in such a way as it to appear that the Yes side were wronged, they weren't they shot themselves in the foot with poor speakers and rude supporters. Claire couldn't have fixed that for them.

There's going to be more debates, you can be full sure the yes side are going to trot out Colm O'Gorman next. The probably won't let Maria on against him.
What will we be hearing them, great show, rte done a great job etc.

A lot to be said for not watching RTE, except for the Gaaaaaaa.

drunkmonkey

To be sure it's like hearing from Mayo after an all Ireland final.

RabbleRouser2k

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's all the SJW's on the internet, venting from the Keyboard even though there was plenty of whopping and clapping from them.
The Yes side lost fair and square last night, now there accusing RTE of being biased as they should have came out on top.

650,000 watched last night of course there's going to be complaints, the number of complaints is not known and neither is it known from which side but the media have skewed it in such a way as it to appear that the Yes side were wronged, they weren't they shot themselves in the foot with poor speakers and rude supporters. Claire couldn't have fixed that for them.

There's going to be more debates, you can be full sure the yes side are going to trot out Colm O'Gorman next. The probably won't let Maria on against him.
What will we be hearing them, great show, rte done a great job etc.

To be fair, they were people in the audience, who were invited to speak with the promise of air-time, so they weren't exactly keyboard warriors.

As they said, they are people who were directly affected by the 8th-in that the fetus was dead, there was nothing that could be done.

Pr
Even people of the No side would have recognised the need for a termination there. But by then they said the atmosphere had turned hostile.

I've no doubt the Yes side had the worst speakers there, and that represents a flaw within their movement-they've so geared up for their 'Say yes' opinion, yet many of them are from twitter. No access to a block button, thus no ability for a debate. The No campaign are able to debate and discuss this position, because they are used to defending it and debating it.

That's a flaw that the Yes side may have left too late in the race to push a Yes motion. From someone who wishes to vote Yes, I've noticed that immensely, even on youtube where 'Love both' adverts popped up often.
The Yes campaign have dropped the ball, and could pay for it, heavily.

Prime Time are having a debate on Thursday, and here's hoping it's less Jerry Springer, more discussion.

Arghus

I watched it last night. It was a very depressing spectacle. The No side seemed to be allowed spout whatever guff they wanted and then leave the Yes side so busy trying to correct their basic falsehoods that they didn't know whether they were coming or going.

They were well prepared, but it's always an advantage in formats like last nights to be able to rely on half baked appeals to emotion as the basis of your arguments: the other side don't stand a chance with their "facts" and "reality".

My respect for Peter Boylan went up immeasurably after the farce that was last night. How he managed to keep his composure in the face of some of the utterly ludicrous claims he had to listen to was utterly amazing. Maria Steen was more a less allowed free reign to say whatever she felt like and she took full advantage.

The real low point was Dr. - can you believe that! - John Monaghan pettily chiding Dr. Boylan - "you should go back to school" - after Dr. Boylan had made the fair and reasonable point that a 12 week old foetus is not a fully formed human being. Christ Almighty, Dr. Monaghan if a foetus can be considered good as gold after 12 weeks, then what exactly is it doing in the womb for the remaining 24? Catching up on some reading with its fully formed brain? Get a grip man and grow some sense. How is that lad an obstetrician? It was clearly an attempt to try to settle some old scores and factual reality be dammed if it got in the way.

Last night made me utterly, even more so, determined to vote Yes. I have some sympathy for people who feel conflicted and who will vote No: no matter what either extreme side of the argument says it's an eithical grey area. But I really hate, hate, hate, that brand of No voter who will utterly shamelessly say or claim anything to try to browbeat the other side, they're the lowest of the low, and there was a lot of that on display last night.

bleary

The problem is what will that show do for the undecided. The hard yes , the hard no won't change their minds. It's the big block in the middle who will decide this.
And all the no side have to do is sow enough doubt in the minds of some to stop people voting for a change. Irish are very reluctant to change the constitution.

drunkmonkey

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Prime Time are having a debate on Thursday, and here's hoping it's less Jerry Springer, more discussion.

Do we know who's going to be on it, is this the last debate before it, is there a media blackout after that?

elperello

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/abortion-debate-who-are-dr-john-monaghan-and-maria-steen-1.3496645

Some info from the IT re. Dr Monaghan and Maria Steen.
He worked in Portiuncla Hospital, Ballinasloe.

pinkypinky

Isn't that the hospital where lots of babies died shortly after birth a few years ago?

Yer Da sells Avon

I wonder was Dr Monaghan sent back to school after this:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0324/74461-dwyers/

johnpatrick81

Oh lordy, that's crazy. What a pack of lunatics.