The Vegans

Shenshen

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Are you a professional rhetorician?

Either way, you're mistaken.

As I already explained - if one were to strictly adhere to teaching a child extremist belief systems - whether they be communism, atheism or veganism - all would be wrong for the same reason. I chose communism and fascism as examples of extremist belief systems. This doesn't mean, of course, that I think veganism has any comparable traits with those, only I'm highlighting the absurdity of enforcing belief systems on a child. If it's obvious with one it would be equally as obvious with the other.

Simple, right?

Very simple - we should all raise our children without any belief, for fear they might turn out "extremist".

What about sports? Should the parents be allowed to tell the child that they're Manchester United fans, or would that be too much, do you think?

OldNotWIse

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Are you a professional rhetorician?

Either way, you're mistaken.

As I already explained - if one were to strictly adhere to teaching a child extremist belief systems - whether they be communism, atheism or veganism - all would be wrong for the same reason. I chose communism and fascism as examples of extremist belief systems. This doesn't mean, of course, that I think veganism has any comparable traits with those, only I'm highlighting the absurdity of enforcing belief systems on a child. If it's obvious with one it would be equally as obvious with the other.

Simple, right?

Yes, but I'm taking pills and attending CBT so I should be all cleared up any day.

Are you capable of speaking in normal language? Or does every post have to be peppered with accusations of rhetoric, strawmen etc? Seriously, it sounds like you swallowed a dictionary and are re-gurgitating r-s

wretcheddomain

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Yes, but I'm taking pills and attending CBT so I should be all cleared up any day.

Are you capable of speaking in normal language? Or does every post have to be peppered with accusations of rhetoric, strawmen etc? Seriously, it sounds like you swallowed a dictionary and are re-gurgitating r-s

I'm still waiting to hear your point.

One eyed Jack

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I'm still waiting to hear your point.

The point is that you started off in your OP claiming that some people who are vegan, believe themselves to be superior to those people who are not vegan.

You've been drowning in word salad ever since.

wretcheddomain

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The point is that you started off in your OP claiming that some people who are vegan, believe themselves to be superior to those people who are not vegan.

You've been drowning in word salad ever since.

I said many vegans, in the same way I clarified by saying many religious people also believe themselves to be superior.

The thread evolved - in what's known as a discussion - and further points were made and clarified.

By engaging in ad hominem attacks, you really aren't doing your side any favours.

mcmoustache

There's a lot of misinformation out there about vegans and their energy levels. A lot of it is nonsense.

I play GAA football and the thing about a vegan diet is that you have to supplement it with, well, supplements. For example, there are certain oils, proteins and vitamins that you need which are difficult to get from vegan products.

They aren't impossible to find either though. When I'm having my potatoes or rice, I usually supplement them with a lump of beef, pork or chicken. This takes care of my protein requirements. I eat some eggs with my baked beans and usually add milk to my protein shakes. This takes care of my nutritional needs while allowing me to maintain a vegan diet.

OldNotWIse

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I'm still waiting to hear your point.

We're all still waiting to hear yours.

OldNotWIse

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The point is that you started off in your OP claiming that some people who are vegan, believe themselves to be superior to those people who are not vegan.

You've been drowning in word salad ever since.

Word salad lol. Can I have some chips with my salad? Oh no I don't need them mixed, why don't you just put them here on my shoulder...

OldNotWIse

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I said many vegans, in the same way I clarified by saying many religious people also believe themselves to be superior.

The thread evolved - in what's known as a discussion - and further points were made and clarified.

By engaging in ad hominem attacks, you really aren't doing your side any favours.

Snigger. I'm glad Darwin is not around to hear you :P

kylith

osarusan wrote: »

Yeah, that wasn't my point - my point is that the danger comes when the diet is improper or incorrect.

The same can be said for any diet.

The question for me is how much does the choice to raise a child as a vegetarian or vegan (even through an informed, balanced diet) reduce the margin of error regarding illness.

That's the thing, a restricted diet is much easier to get wrong than a broader one.

OldNotWIse

mcmoustache wrote: »

There's a lot of misinformation out there about vegans and their energy levels. A lot of it is nonsense.

I play GAA football and the thing about a vegan diet is that you have to supplement it with, well, supplements. For example, there are certain oils, proteins and vitamins that you need which are difficult to get from vegan products.

They aren't impossible to find either though. When I'm having my potatoes or rice, I usually supplement them with a lump of beef, pork or chicken. This takes care of my protein requirements. I eat some eggs with my baked beans and usually add milk to my protein shakes. This takes care of my nutritional needs while allowing me to maintain a vegan diet.

How do you class yourself as vegan if you supplement with meat?

Teyla Emmagan

Ososlo wrote: »

I know people raising kids and giving them processed food for every meal.

I know vegan parents who only give their kids only wholesome natural foods.
I know which kid I'd rather be.

What a stupid thing to say.

If you were a kid you'd rather the delicious processed cr&p, like all kids would.

Kermit.de.frog

They say mass production of meat is cruel on cows etc but most animals, aside from chimps, are not self aware like us. Like vegetables they don't know they exist. That makes them fair game imo.

Irish Guitarist

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Many posters here disagree with you, as they claim children do not deserve the basic respect to eat what and how they choose.

I once saw a child in a park put his hand in swan crap and then attempt to stick his fingers in his mouth. The parents stopped him and wiped his hand with a tissue. Was that disrespectful of them?

CruelCoin

Ososlo wrote: »

Like?
I'd say the kid eating chicken nuggets has the perfect superior diet alright.
Any vegans I know are way healthier than most meat eaters.

Nice big sample size right there....

I know a fat american. All americans are fat! :eek:

To answer your question, all of these:
http://www.thesweetbeet.com/vegan-diet/

Vitamin A: The “direct” form is only found in animal products -meat, egg yolks, dairy (though much less so than meat) and fish. The vitamin A found in orange and green vegetables is beta carotene which the body must first convert to the usable form of Vitamin A. That conversion requires bile salts, which are produced by your liver when you consume fat (making fat essential on a vegan diet). So yes, you can obtain a version of Vitamin A in plants, but you’ll need about 6x as much beta cartonene to equal the amount found in direct Vitamin A.

B12: This is the nutrient which vegans can potentially become deficient as you can only get naturally occurring B12 from animal products. (There are eight different B vitamins and our body needs them all). It can take time for the implications of low B12 to show up, with anemia being the most common outcome of very low levels.

Vitamin This is another one found only in animal products. Cod liver oil is super high in it, as is shrimp, wild salmon, sardines, full-fat dairy products, and egg yolks. Yes you can get it from the sun, but most of us don’t spend 15 minutes a day, flesh exposed, palms open. Furthermore, the darker your skin, the less D your body will produce.

Protein: You can get some of the components of protein (the amino acids) from legumes, seeds and grain, but meat and fish contain complete protein (meaning they have all the essential amino acids). The amino acids in meat/fish are also in a form that is very easy for most people to digest. Many people find grains and legumes (which contain digestive inhibitors) quite hard to digest. Note too how little meat you actually need to get protein – 4 oz of beef provides 30 grams protein; salmon 25 grams; tofu 8 grams.

Zinc: Red meat is high in it and it comes in a form that many believe is easier for the body to break down than that found in grains and legumes.

CruelCoin

Frankly, it's a lot of work and hassle for a fashion statement.

catallus

Is turkey meat?

Ososlo

I don't want to get into a stupid argument with anyone about this topic.

Bottom line is that you can be completely healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet if you eat correctly. I know that because I have family and friends who are vegan and they are strong fit healthy people with perfect bloods. Many have been vegetarian or vegan from a very young age.
I am strict vegetarian and likewise am fit healthy and strong. I take vit b12 as my recent levels were a bit on the low side but not badly so. but my younger sister who is also vegetarian doesn't need to take any supplements. . My older sister who is vegan doesn't have low b12 or have to take any supplements. She has many much older friends in San Francisco in 60s 70s who are very fit and have been vegans all their lives.
Eat healthily and you'll all live long happy lives.
Bye now I'm off for a long run

Tar.Aldarion

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The child has been given no choice as to whether they subscribe to their parent's perspective on meat.

It's possible, for example, that the child would abhor animal cruelty, but still continue consuming meat. We simply do not know.

As people have said every parent imposes belief on their child, this is no different. Vegetarians/Vegans are healthy, they get cancer less than meat eaters, they look after their diets better in general, all studies point to them being healthier on average. This is because they think more about diet, they think more about nutrition, I can tell you what every ingredient on every packet is, what it does, why I need, x, , z. I show the same thing to most people and they dont even have a clue,some cant even tell me how many calories are in something...from reading it. We are pretty healthy, can easily give children a healthy lifestyle and are far more likely to be interested in health and nutrition and look things up.

Do you think this kid eats bad, he is an Irish vegan child http://veganpapa.tumblr.com/
He certainly eats better than me when I was young, by a mile.

kylith wrote: »

That's the thing, a restricted diet is much easier to get wrong than a broader one.

In general it could appear that way but the reality is that people that restrict their diets learn much more about nutrition that the average person.

BlaasForRafa

Ososlo wrote: »

Eat healthily and you'll all live long happy lives.
Bye now I'm off for a long run

I'd question the happy part of that statement. I can't see how one would be happier with a nut cutlet than a pork chop or a bacon sandwich or a nice juicy steak. I think veggies and vegans convince themselves that their food is tastier when it obviously isn't, it's a form of brainwashing.

Don't worry, I'm only winding you up, tongue firmly in cheek an all that.

Still, my point stands about bacon sandwiches!

endacl

There's little fouler than a vegan's fart.

And for that reason, I'm out.

Yurt2

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

As people have said every parent imposes belief on their child, this is no different. Vegetarians/Vegans are healthy, they get cancer less than meat eaters, they look after their diets better in general, all studies point to them being healthier on average. This is because they think more about diet, they think more about nutrition, I can tell you what every ingredient on every packet is, what it does, why I need, x, , z. I show the same thing to most people and they dont even have a clue,some cant even tell me how many calories are in something...from reading it. We are pretty healthy, can easily give children a healthy lifestyle and are far more likely to be interested in health and nutrition and look things up.

Do you think this kid eats bad, he is an Irish vegan child http://veganpapa.tumblr.com/
He certainly eats better than me when I was young, by a mile.


In general it could appear that way but the reality is that people that restrict their diets learn much more about nutrition that the average person.

You don't need to be a vegan to be informed about nutrition and wellbeing. Any person with a well balanced diet (including animal products and meats which have many dietary benefits unacknowledged by vegans) who eats sustainably sourced food will have a similar if not superior lifestyle outcomes. The delusion that veganism prevents/cures cancer (among other things, and don't tell me that a lot of vegans don't think this way) is without basis. To me veganism appears to be as much a an ideology and a doctrine as a diet, and resembles an eating disorder for it's more extreme proponents.

strobe

I've known quite a few vegetarians and a couple of vegans over the years. The nearest any of them have ever come to acting morally superior or jumping on the moral high ground was a few years ago when I was eating sushi with a girl, and a bit of meat fell out of a piece of mine and landed in the little dollop of wasabi we were sharing. And she says "sorry, Strobe, could you take that out please?"
Self righteous cunt.

blatantrereg

Consider supplementation:

DHA: Omega 3 fat in fish with many benefits to eyes, heart, brain. Not present in typical vegetarian diet. The omega 3 oil found in vegetables is EPA, which is not as useful. Our bodies can convert EPA to DHA but not very efficiently. Supplementation is a good idea if you don't eat fish. Algae oil is a good vegetarian source for this purpose. Some vegetarians make a concession and just consume fish oil because it's cheaper and much more widely available.

Vitamin B12: The one everyone knows about. Supplementation is required in a vegan diet. Vegetarians get plenty from eggs etc.

Creatine: Widely known for various beneficial effects on strength training. Also lets you think more clearly if you have missed out on some sleep. Pretty much absent from vegetarian diet. Our bodies manufacture enough for normal biological role outside of the aforementioned things. Vegetarians are likely to benefit more from supplementation for sports, since they are likely to have lower levels otherwise.

...
Not a problem:

Protein: Easy to get plenty of all amino acids in a vegan/vegetarian diet (once you realise a vegetarian diet is not the same as a traditional diet with the meat taken out). Possibly harder to consume excessive amounts. No benefit from excessive consumption unless you count possible appetite suppression. A high protein diet results in lower testosterone levels than a high carbohydrate diet.

Carbohydrate: Typically high levels of complex carbs in a good vegetarian diet. These are good carbs. Many people make the mistake of attributing the negative health effects of eating a lot of simple carbs to carbohydrates in general.

Iron: Easy to get enough of in vegetarian/vegan diet (though vegetable sources should be consumed with vitamin c). Statistically vegetarians in developed countries are less likely to be deficient in iron than omnivorous compatriots. The most common nutrient deficiency worldwide is iron deficiency.

But:

It can be easy to eat far too much salt on a vegetarian diet. Personally I was eating far too much for some time thanks to excessive amounts in certain curries, miso, soy sauce, bread and so on.

Paramite Pie

Sorry OP, just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they're judging you -- your probably just so self-centred that you take every belief that's different as a personal insult. Nothing they do revolves around you so get over it.;)

And that's coming from a meat eater.

MRnotlob606

I don't like vegans mainly because they taste like ****ing ****

Venus In Furs

osarusan wrote: »

How many of them claim to possess a moral edge?

How many AH threads have been started by vegans preaching moral superiority, in comparison with AH threads complaining about vegans' supposed self-identified moral superiority?

I honestly can say I've never met more than one or two vegans who feel morally superior. And I've met more than one or two vegans, and for the vast majority, it's been nothing more than a personal choice, and if they had any issues with me being somebody who eats meat, they politely kept them to themselves.

Very much so. Definitely hear more people complaining about vegetarians/vegans than the latter complaining about meat-eaters.
If a person leads a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle and says nothing about it, why would it annoy someone, other than them being uncomfortable with something that they disagree with in motion.
The leading of the lifestyle in and of itself isn't taking the moral high-ground - well maybe it is, but it's their choice. People take the moral high ground in all sorts of ways - and it's hardly always a bad thing once they're not a martyr about it.
If they keep verbalising how great they are and how shyte meat-eaters are, that's when there's the issue - but if they say nothing, I'm not seeing the problem.

And... I love my meat/fish/cheese/eggs/butter.

Tar.Aldarion

Yurt! wrote: »

You don't need to be a vegan to be informed about nutrition and wellbeing. Any person with a well balanced diet (including animal products and meats which have many dietary benefits unacknowledged by vegans) who eats sustainably sourced food will have a similar if not superior lifestyle outcomes. The delusion that veganism prevents/cures cancer (among other things, and don't tell me that a lot of vegans don't think this way) is without basis. To me veganism appears to be as much a an ideology and a doctrine as a diet, and resembles an eating disorder for it's more extreme proponents.

Nobody said you needed to be vegan to learn about nutrition, of course not, what I said was that on average the former are more informed, which is true due to their diet being more important to them than the average Joe.


You say things are without basis when they are backed up by peer reviewed research, hundreds if not thousands of papers, I could list dozens right now. There is association between meat and cancer, people do not know what is causing it, but it exists and is not scientifically disputed. There is a higher mortality rate for omnivores than vegetarians and vegans, again undisputed.

I mean if you are going to make claims on it, read some research, not believe what you want to believe. My views are ones of international health organisations.

youreadthat

Venus In Furs wrote: »

Very much so. Definitely hear more people complaining about vegetarians/vegans than the latter complaining about meat-eaters.

Then you should read any comment section of a Guardian article that mentions a meat recipe! :eek:

Greentopia

OldNotWIse wrote: »

The one that can actually trigger an allergic reaction in people who have a penicillin allergy? Yummy stuff indeed. I do love the taste of penicillin in the morning :P

Happens to a good friend of mine who does get indeed a penicillin allergy if he eats chicken with that crap in it. He couldn't figure out for ages why he was getting a nasty itchy rash on his leg so often until he found out what it was.

Yurt2

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

You say things are without basis when they are backed up by peer reviewed research, hundreds if not thousands of papers, I could list dozens right now. There is association between meat and cancer, people do not know what is causing it, but it exists and is not scientifically disputed.

High consumption of certain meats cause a modest increase in the risk of certain types of cancers, this is true. Vegans still get cancer. I'm referring the the common attitude among vegans that their diet means they won't get cancer and think that veganism cures cancer.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

There is a higher mortality rate for omnivores than vegetarians and vegans, again undisputed.

Highly disputable. Correlation does not equal causation. Basic precept of scientific inquiry. Life spans of vegans and people who have a healthy varied diet are not significantly different in any study I've come across.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I mean if you are going to make claims on it, read some research, not believe what you want to believe. My views are ones of international health organisations.

Way to patronize (common vegan tactic btw!), we can get in a scientific journal posting ping pong session if you wish, but there is research out there that contradicts the beneficial claims of a vegan diet, and that the beneifts are overstated compared to a varied standard diet.

osarusan

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm referring the the common attitude among vegans that their diet means they won't get cancer and think that veganism cures cancer.

Common attitude?

You think that a majority of vegans believe that veganism cures cancer?

hatrickpatrick

Mr Mackey's antics in South Park's "Gluten Free Ebola" summed it up pretty well

Tar.Aldarion

Yurt! wrote: »

High consumption of certain meats cause a modest increase in the risk of certain types of cancers, this is true. Vegans still get cancer. I'm referring the the common attitude among vegans that their diet means they won't get cancer and think that veganism cures cancer.



Highly disputable. Correlation does not equal causation. Basic precept of scientific inquiry. Life spans of vegans and people who have a healthy varied diet are not significantly different in any study I've come across.



Way to patronize (common vegan tactic btw!), we can get in a scientific journal posting ping pong session if you wish, but there is research out there that contradicts the beneficial claims of a vegan diet, and that the beneifts are overstated compared to a varied standard diet.

I dont get why you were replying to me at all then.
1) The nutrition thing you said I said, I did not say.
2) You are now talking about this mythical vegan which does not exist that thinks they can't get cancer
3) There would be no pingpong match as there are different types of cancer and you admitted to what I claimed, people that eat meat get more of some of them.

Yurt2

osarusan wrote: »

Common attitude?

You think that a majority of vegans believe that veganism cures cancer?

Never said majority but enough vegans claim it for it to be a thing within the movement yes. It's often accepted uncritically as a benefit of veganism.

Tar.Aldarion

Yurt! wrote: »

Never said majority but enough vegans claim it for it to be a thing within the movement yes. It's often accepted uncritically as a benefit of veganism.

No, it is accepted that they get less cancer, nobody thinks vegans can't get cancer unless they are a fringe crackpot.

osarusan

Yurt! wrote: »

Never said majority but enough vegans claim it for it to be a thing within the movement yes. It's often accepted uncritically as a benefit of veganism.

Do you have anything to back up this argument that it's a common attitude that veganism cures cancer?

It sounds more like something you want vegans to believe.

Yurt2

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

2) You are now talking about this mythical vegan which does not exist that thinks they can't get cancer

You've never heard some of the quack vegan claims about cancer??? Be real.

thegreatgonzo

Lau2976 wrote: »

No I don't, as far as research is concerned there is healthy alternatives so whats the issue?

Cats need Taurine though which is an animal protein

I know quite a few vegetarians and vegans, can't say I've noticed any sense of superiority off them. I'd never become a vegan myself but I admire any one that raises consciousness about unethical food production.

Yurt2

osarusan wrote: »

Do you have anything to back up this argument that it's a common attitude?

http://www.everydayhealth.com/columns/my-cancer-story/healed-colon-cancer-vegan-diet/
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/07/21/man-with-stage-3-colon-cancer-refuses-chemotherapy-cures-himself-with-vegan-diet/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmJ4CXMP6yI

And a warning from Irish nutritionists to quack claims....

http://www.thejournal.ie/vegan-diet-cancer-cure-1849365-Dec2014/

Tar.Aldarion

Yurt! wrote: »

You've never heard some of the quack vegan claims about cancer??? Be real.

I have heard people claim to have heard it, like this discussion, I may have seen it claimed online once or something, the same as I hear many crazy people think many crazy things.

Simply put, I have been part of the community for over a decade and nobody believes that, one or two people with odd views.
And those people generally have more to worry about than their views on cancer.

osarusan

Yurt! wrote: »

http://www.everydayhealth.com/columns/my-cancer-story/healed-colon-cancer-vegan-diet/
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/07/21/man-with-stage-3-colon-cancer-refuses-chemotherapy-cures-himself-with-vegan-diet/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmJ4CXMP6yI

That's 3 stories about one guy.

Is that evidence of a common attitude?

Tar.Aldarion

While he is just using anecdotal evidence to say what he did, the only element of truth in it is that diet does affect cancer, but we don't know how inparticular. What is known is that increased veg and fruit intake is protective against cancer too.

Yurt2

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

While he is just using anecdotal evidence to say what he did, the only element of truth in it is that diet does affect cancer, but we don't know how inparticular. What is known is that increased veg and fruit intake is protective against cancer too.

Which is not mutually exclusive with animal product intake.

Tar.Aldarion

Of course not.

Greentopia

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I do have a set of beliefs, as do you. Those include informed consent for extreme moves such as circumcision and veganism, among many others.

Imagine a five or six year old child wandering around the supermarket with his mother. The child proceeds to pick up a chicken baguette, swiftly barked at by his mother to return it back. The child is reminded he is a vegan child who must obey his vegan mother's beliefs on meat. The child cries.

Are you comfortable with this?

I'm not a vegan but my diet is about 90% plant based-no meat, eggs or dairy, the only animal flesh I eat is fish (wild caught) and shellfish a few times a week. For ethical (hate factory farming) and health reasons. So I'm Pescetarian I guess but plant based will do fine.

I find the scenario you paint unrealistic. I know many vegans and not once have I seen or heard any of them scold their children in such a fashion-your hypothetical scenario of a parent 'swiftly barking at her child' would be what would make me uncomfortable, not the reason for it. If a vegan parent explains to their child in an age appropriate manner what veganism is and why animal products are no longer purchased-assuming the child is not vegan from birth (whether because of the parent's ethical or health reasons) the child knows what they are and why they are not allowed.
Most of the vegan parents I know would be more patient and kind with their child and some will allow their child to occasionally eat items with dairy or eggs-cake at a friend's birthday party for example so their child doesn't feel left out.

That happened to a vegan friend of mine recently-her daughter took a strop in a restaurant because she wanted cake with icing on and her Mum told her no she couldn't have it, and that evening the Mum showed a few seconds of the movie Earthlings to her daughter that contained scenes of animal cruelty to remind her why she no longer fed her family meat and dairy.
Tears ensued for a while as she's a child and doesn't like to see any cruelty to animals-as children naturally don't, but she understood then the point her Mum was making. You might call that cruel, I see it as raising her child to be a compassionate aware human being as well as giving her child the best start in life. And the Mum made it clear that as soon as she becomes an adult she will have the choice to continue being vegan or start eating animal products, so it's not some life long imposed belief system for kids.

And even when I was still a meat eater I still wouldn't have allowed a child of mine (if I had them!) to have chicken baguettes. The meat in them is poor quality and I never supported buying battery hen meat-because that's what goes into those supermarket sandwiches and baguettes. It sure as hell is not premium quality free range organic chicken...unless you're buying them from Fortnum and Masons or some other top class eating establishment! :pac:

And there are loads of vegan substitute raw ingredients and food items now available, many not even available a few years ago, so deprivation never needs to go hand in hand with veganism as you seem to be suggesting.

As for pets-if I had a cat I absolutely wouldn't feed it cat food (most of that is grain filler crap anyway), I'd feed it raw and cooked meat like rabbit and non-battery hens with taurine supplements because as you correctly pointed out-cats are obviate carnivores and I'm not convinced a vegan cat food would provide all the nutrients the cat needs, and besides cats enjoy eating meat being such strong carnivores and I would not deprive them of the pleasure of eating it-food they would naturally eat in the wild. If your idea of feeding cats a species appropriate diet is the likes of Whiskas kibbles btw, you might want to rethink the kind of 'carnivorous' food cats thrive best on ;-)

Dogs I would feed butcher meat scraps and human food as they are omnivores and scraps are only waste meat that would otherwise not be used. That's my stance on it, strict vegans may feel differently but I don't see a problem with feeding a dog meat scraps.

OldNotWIse

This post really is like a breath of fresh air

Egginacup

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

I spent a month travelling around Southern India and Sri Lanka a number of years back. Ate loads of vegan food. Good spicing makes everything taste lovely.
I'd rather not have a vegan or vegetarian round at one of our dinner parties though. Always find it tiresome having to rustle up something specially for them.

Like a garden salad with cherry tomatoes, and a can of chickpeas, pine nuts, and olives fucked on top of it with a bit of oil, and a glass of wine is such a damn project.

archer22

Reality is that while many people think Humans are natural carnivores the reality is they are not.
Humans took to meat eating as scavengers not as predators.The fact that Humans still cannot stomach raw meat says it all.
So basically a vegetarian diet is natural for a human and not an aberration as many would have you believe.Indeed consuming burned flesh is the real aberration.

wretcheddomain

Greentopia wrote: »

I find the scenario you paint unrealistic. I know many vegans and not once have I seen or heard any of them scold their children in such a fashion-your hypothetical scenario of a parent 'swiftly barking at her child' would be what would make me uncomfortable, not the reason for it. If a vegan parent explains to their child in an age appropriate manner what veganism is and why animal products are no longer purchased-assuming the child is not vegan from birth (whether because of the parent's ethical or health reasons) the child knows what they are and why they are not allowed.
Most of the vegan parents I know would be more patient and kind with their child and some will allow their child to occasionally eat items with dairy or eggs-cake at a friend's birthday party for example so their child doesn't feel left out.

As for pets-if I had a cat I absolutely wouldn't feed it cat food (most of that is grain filler crap anyway), I'd feed it raw and cooked meat like rabbit and non-battery hens with taurine supplements because as you correctly pointed out-cats are obviate carnivores and I'm not convinced a vegan cat food would provide all the nutrients the cat needs, and besides cats enjoy eating meat being such strong carnivores and I would not deprive them of the pleasure of eating it-food they would naturally eat in the wild. If your idea of feeding cats a species appropriate diet is the likes of Whiskas kibbles btw, you might want to rethink the kind of 'carnivorous' food cats thrive best on ;-)

Dogs I would feed butcher meat scraps and human food as they are omnivores and scraps are only waste meat that would otherwise not be used. That's my stance on it, strict vegans may feel differently but I don't see a problem with feeding a dog meat scraps.

I think the first half of this quoted post reflects the problem with many vegans - that they must feel the need to enforce their views about meat onto a child who has not had the opportunity to think about the issue, or try the food for themselves. I find it very selfish for a parent to act in this way.

I'm glad to hear you agree with feeding obligate carnivores the meat they need, it's just a pity that every vegan/vegetarian doesn't think this way. This is why I said at the outset that this discussion is just as much about vegan-vegetarian-vegan interactions as it is about the wider debate about veganism.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

This post really is like a breath of fresh air

Almost all of your posts have no substance. No valid and worthwhile contribution has been made by you over the course of this thread. All your posts have offered is cheap sarcasm.