Proposed Public sector pay rises

Godge

Bob24 wrote: »

The only attempt to make a fair comparison is this paragraph:

"Even when you adjust for qualifications, experience and length of service, the public sector workers still enjoy a significant pay premium over their private sector counterparts,” Ibec economist Fergal O’Brien said."

And unfortunately it is the only thing in the article that is not backed up by numbers.

Now if this is correct there is indeed and issue, but the rest of the article is comparing apples to oranges.

And the person making the statement is an IBEC economist who has a vested interest.

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

A poster sent you a link showing PS are paid 50% on average, thats not even mentioning the myriad of reports that suggest the Ireland has one of the high paid public services in the OCED.

Every worker pays taxes and expect something in return not just to feather nest 300k workers and the ex workers for overpayment and for their pensions.

Take a worker for example me and my typical day and what I phucking have to pay in taxation. and not even bringing in the cost of services such as heat and light for phuck sake

I wake up in the morning in my bed within my house
Taxes paid - Stamp duty, property tax, VAT on my bed and mattress, duvet, sheets and pillows.

I decide to have a shower
Taxes paid - VAT on the electricity, shampoo and water charges

I go down and make make breakie toast and a coffee
Taxes paid - VAT on elecy, toaster and kettle and water charges

I leave the house and jump in the car to go to work
Taxes paid - Road tax, Carbon tax and VAT on petol, Vat on insurance, VRT on car, toll bridge and NCT

I arrive into work and work till lunch 9/10 hours
Tax paid - Income tax, Usc, PRSI

I drive home - See above

Make some dinner - See above for breakie

I watch some telly
See above for using elecy add in TV license

Also other service and bills that I need to pay for
Bin service/nessecities - used to be covered by general taxation
Creche fees
ESB
GAS
Food
Clothes
Mortgage


Now after all of this I still have to pay if I go to a doctor or hospital and worse still I get the pleasure of paying for the thousands that are on the dole to go aswell.

Now you tell me buddy am I over paying for services in this country

ans - PHUCK YES I AM

What about the fact that out of the 200billion in debt only 40billion (which may decrease as time goes on) is for the banks..who is to blame for the other 160 odd billion?


That does not include the fact that we are on the ledge for ridiculous pensions schemes for the PS

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_Economy/article_1025888_printer.shtml

have a quick look at this aswell
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2014/09/01/public-sector-the-insider-story

No you aren't. The burden of income taxation on the average worker in Ireland is well below international standards.

One of the ironic things in speaking to people at average wage levels who have been working abroad in Europe is that they are very grateful to have Irish levels of taxation on average wages.

The higher paid get hammered here more than anywhere else.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

Do enlighten me ... my understanding is this and only this ...Howlin is shatting on about payrises currently we borrow and we are in debt , this means a payrise to these 300k means taking more from my back pocket to pay it..Its that simple

Or did it ever occur to you that there are now more people paying from thier back pockets than there were a few years ago?

It's called an increase in employment and it's good news for public services as emergency measures are no longer needed and pay can be reinstated.

chopper6

Godge wrote: »

And the person making the statement is an IBEC economist who has a vested interest.

No..an IBEC statistician....even worse.

antoobrien

chopper6 wrote: »

It's called an increase in employment and it's good news for public services as emergency measures are no longer needed and pay can be reinstated.

We're 8bn in deficit, the emergency is far from over.

The only time we should consider reinstating PS pay is when we actually have extra money to spend.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

Also other service and bills that I need to pay for
Bin service/nessecities - used to be covered by general taxation
Creche fees
ESB
GAS
Food
Clothes
Mortgage

Everything there is paid by you to the private sector.

Godge

antoobrien wrote: »

We're 8bn in deficit, the emergency is far from over.

The only time we should consider reinstating PS pay is when we actually have extra money to spend.

€5.3 bn in 2015, below the 3% target, money is available for tax cuts and for social welfare bonuses, why not public service pay?

jcon1913

chopper6 wrote: »

Or did it ever occur to you that there are now more people paying from thier back pockets than there were a few years ago?

It's called an increase in employment and it's good news for public services as emergency measures are no longer needed and pay can be reinstated.

I suppose you'll be telling us all that the overpaid public service are responsible for the increase in employment next. It's as fatuous an argument as ''we aren't as highly taxed here as in other countries. Lets tax people more'' rot that Godge comes out with.

Public sector paid too much - get that through your heads. Just because we don't march in Kildare Street doesnt mean we private sector workers arent watching this latest public service attempt to get back to the old norm. Which is - overpaid public sector. Got it now?

We as a country are paying people in secure pensionable jobs too much. More than other countries pay. Nothing in this thread convinces me otherwise.

And just because you say that public sector workers arent overpaid doesnt make it true.

jcon1913

Godge wrote: »

€5.3 bn in 2015, below the 3% target, money is available for tax cuts and for social welfare bonuses, why not public service pay?

Because PS are overpaid already. End of.

Dozen Wicked Words

jcon1913 wrote: »

Because PS are overpaid already. End of.

And just because you say that public sector workers are overpaid doesn't make it true.

Well this debating lark is easy.

Mardy Bum

jcon1913 wrote: »

Because PS are overpaid already. End of.

Let's see some data.
You do realise that new teachers wages have decreased by over 25% of what they were.
Are u angry at the clerical and admin workers getting paid 20 grand as well or the nurses on minimum wage more or less.

chopper6

jcon1913 wrote: »

I suppose you'll be telling us all that the overpaid public service are responsible for the increase in employment next. It's as fatuous an argument as ''we aren't as highly taxed here as in other countries. Lets tax people more'' rot that Godge comes out with.

Public sector paid too much - get that through your heads. Just because we don't march in Kildare Street doesnt mean we private sector workers arent watching this latest public service attempt to get back to the old norm. Which is - overpaid public sector. Got it now?

We as a country are paying people in secure pensionable jobs too much. More than other countries pay. Nothing in this thread convinces me otherwise.

And just because you say that public sector workers arent overpaid doesnt make it true.

They're hiring soon..maybe you should apply for one of the overpaid jobs and see what happens.

Rightwing

Bob24 wrote: »

Or (c) the structure of their workforce is different (with less non qualified jobs)

I would say the services industry is having a massive downwards impact on the private sector average. There are hundred of thousands of people working in restaurants, convenience stores, supermarkets, hotels, petrol stations, etc who are all on very low wages. This type of job is much less represented in the public sector.

Now I am not saying there is no salary gap. But national averages who do not take the structure of the workforce into account cannot give any indication one way or another.

It is the same as saying Google employees are overpaid compared to McDonald's employees because the average salary in the company is much higher ... it is obviously flawed and the only way to compare is to look at the salary for lets say a web designer at Google and a web designer at McDonald's, or a guy making burgers at Google's canteen and a guy making burgers at McDonalds. The overall average has more to do with the fact that one company employs more web designers and the other employs more people making burgers.

There's an element of truth in that, (although you'll probably find people in Mc with degrees which makes you question how good these degrees are these days, 6 a penny I'd suggest) but you won't find a case of a secretary leaving the public sector for the private sector, or a bus driver leaving for it either. That tells you all need to know.

Valmont

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

And just because you say that public sector workers are overpaid doesn't make it true.

When weekly public wages are nearly 50% higher than private weekly wages then, yes, I think we can conclusively say that the Irish 'public servants' are grossly overpaid. Especially when it is those very private sector workers being taxed to pay them in the first place. I personally cannot wait for the day we have a politician brave enough to take on these parasitic unions.

chopper6

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Let's see some data.
You do realise that new teachers wages have decreased by over 25% of what they were.
Are u angry at the clerical and admin workers getting paid 20 grand as well or the nurses on minimum wage more or less.

There's contract jobs going in my place paying 9 euro an hour..there's very few private sector jobs paying less

Uncle Ben

antoobrien wrote: »

We're 8bn in deficit, the emergency is far from over.

The only time we should consider reinstating PS pay is when we actually have extra money to spend.

Enda, the EU, the IMF and others are consistently telling us how much of a successful recovery we've made. If its good enough for them it's good enough for me. Pay up please. Election in a year's time and 300k votes for sale.

Rightwing

Valmont wrote: »

When weekly public wages are nearly 50% higher than private weekly wages then, yes, I think we can conclusively say that the Irish 'public servants' are grossly overpaid. Especially when it is those very private sector workers being taxed to pay them in the first place. I personally cannot wait for the day we have a politician brave enough to take on these parasitic unions.

Simply impossible. Too large a % of the population. That's why most Governments are overflowing with debt.

chopper6

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Let's see some data.
You do realise that new teachers wages have decreased by over 25% of what they were.
Are u angry at the clerical and admin workers getting paid 20 grand as well or the nurses on minimum wage more or less.

There's contract jobs going in my place paying 9 euro an hour..there's very few private sector jobs paying less

Gloomtastic!

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Let's see some data.
You do realise that new teachers wages have decreased by over 25% of what they were.

But aren't existing teachers still the third best paid in the OECD?

chopper6

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

But aren't existing teachers still the third best paid in the OECD?

So what?

This one of the most expensive countries to live in,due to the greed of certain elements in the private sector.

Rightwing

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

But aren't existing teachers still the third best paid in the OECD?

You mustn't be aware, sure aren't teachers & farmers the most persecuted of all in society ?

Gumbo

Valmont wrote: »

When weekly public wages are nearly 50% higher than private weekly wages then, yes, I think we can conclusively say that the Irish 'public servants' are grossly overpaid. Especially when it is those very private sector workers being taxed to pay them in the first place. I personally cannot wait for the day we have a politician brave enough to take on these parasitic unions.

"I pay your wages".

It only took 9 pages.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

You mustn't be aware, sure aren't teachers & farmers the most persecuted of all in society ?

Farmers are public sector workers now,are they?

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

Farmers are public sector workers now,are they?

I don't foolishly align myself to any sector or section in society. It's the state of the economy that concerns me.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't foolishly align myself to any sector or section in society. It's the state of the economy that concerns me.

Very noble of you I'm sure.

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

Very noble of you I'm sure.

The word you are searching for is rational.

chopper6

kceire wrote: »

"I pay your wages".

It only took 9 pages.

In fairness he didn't say he had a job..only that the PS are grossly overpaid...all 300,000 of them!

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

The word you are searching for is rational.

Begrudging would be another one.

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

Begrudging would be another one.

Well if I begrudge workers in the PS, I also begrudge the likes of farmers in the private sector who get large grants from others' taxes (many of these often less well-off than the farmer). So at least we have a level of consistency in the private sector and look at each on merit.

heybaby

Any pay rises whatsoever should be performance related. Giving across the board pay increases without some increase in efficiency / productivity is nuts. I firmly believe that no public servants should be on permanent contracts.

Performance reviews should be ongoing and performance indicators adhered to and if an employee falls short, regardless of length of service or seniority then they should be shown the door.

For far too long public service jobs have been seen as a job for life where ambition, productivity, efficiency and urgency are forgotten from day one. The public service employees must be divested of their inherent sense of entitlement and brought into the 21st century where your job never mind your pay rise could be gone at the end of the week, such is the brutal reality in the private sector. The disparity between the public and private sectors is still baffling and must be addressed for the sake of equality.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

Well if I begrudge workers in the PS, I also begrudge the likes of farmers in the private sector who get large grants from others' taxes (many of these often less well-off than the farmer). So at least we have a level of consistency in the private sector and look at each on merit.

Farmers aren't the only ones...the IDA and Enterprise Ireland ( both PS quangos) pay out huge amounts of money to the private sector.

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

Farmers aren't the only ones...the IDA and Enterprise Ireland ( both PS quangos) pay out huge amounts of money to the private sector.

Well they don't pay out of their own pockets, they are using other private sector workers (and PS workers) taxes for this. But I agree with your point. It's completely wrong. Another failing of the public sector.

chopper6

heybaby wrote: »

Any pay rises whatsoever should be performance related. Giving across the board pay increases without some increase in efficiency / productivity is nuts. I firmly believe that no public servants should be on permanent contracts.

Performance reviews should be ongoing and performance indicators adhered to and if an employee falls short, regardless of length of service or seniority then they should be shown the door.

For far too long public service jobs have been seen as a job for life where ambition, productivity, efficiency and urgency are forgotten from day one. The public service employees must be divested of their inherent sense of entitlement and brought into the 21st century where your job never mind your pay rise could be gone at the end of the week, such is the brutal reality in the private sector. The disparity between the public and private sectors is still baffling and must be addressed for the sake of equality.

You don't know what you're talking about.

There are no more "jobs for life" in the PS..its almost all contracts.

All new staff must complete a one year probationary period and increments are only awarded on completion of satisfactory service.


Further promotions are hotly contested and are not given to people for no reason...experience, education and competence are just a few of the things applicants are judged on.

And unlike parts of the private sector there has been no decrease in demand for public services...despite hugely reduced wages,a lack of job opportunities and little chance of a permanent contract at the moment.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

Well they don't pay out of their own pockets, they are using other private sector workers (and PS workers) taxes for this. But I agree with your point. It's completely wrong. Another failing of the public sector.

How else are they going to attract FMCs to remote parts of the country?

Stick an ad in the Longford Leader?

Uncle Ben

heybaby wrote: »

Any pay rises whatsoever should be performance related. Giving across the board pay increases without some increase in efficiency / productivity is nuts. I firmly believe that no public servants should be on permanent contracts.

Performance reviews should be ongoing and performance indicators adhered to and if an employee falls short, regardless of length of service or seniority then they should be shown the door.

For far too long public service jobs have been seen as a job for life where ambition, productivity, efficiency and urgency are forgotten from day one. The public service employees must be divested of their inherent sense of entitlement and brought into the 21st century where your job never mind your pay rise could be gone at the end of the week, such is the brutal reality in the private sector. The disparity between the public and private sectors is still baffling and must be addressed for the sake of equality.

If the above didn't happen in 08 or 09 it's not gonna happen now. The financial emergency is over. The employer, (Govt) have stated that. Oh and by the way performance reviews are undertaken on an annual basis. It's just unfortunate it would appear for some, that IBEC don't carry them out.

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

How else are they going to attract FMCs to remote parts of the country?

Stick an ad in the Longford Leader?

Good one. Cork remote, so let's pay Apple massive cash. Last time I looked at their reserves, they had $95bln cash sitting there. Good ole bankrupt Ireland to the rescue.

Chuckle chuckle.

Halloween Jack

Rightwing wrote: »

Good one. Cork remote, so let's pay Apple massive cash. Last time I looked at their reserves, they had $500m cash sitting there. Good ole bankrupt Ireland to the rescue.

Chuckle chuckle.

If private sector corporations like apple paid even a fraction of the tax they should some of that cash might be circulating in the economy rather than sitting in an account gathering dust and interest...

Rightwing

Halloween Jack wrote: »

If private sector corporations like apple paid even a fraction of the tax they should some of that cash might be circulating in the economy rather than sitting in an account gathering dust and interest...

Correct, and it would mean paying less tax for us citizens.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

Good one. Cork remote, so let's pay Apple massive cash. Last time I looked at their reserves, they had $500m cash sitting there. Good ole bankrupt Ireland to the rescue.

Chuckle chuckle.

A waste of money IMO...these companies will relocate overseas sooner or later and the non unionised,non pensioned staff will be whining to the independent like what happened in Dell.

Of course anybody working for an outfit like that is thinking of themselves and only in the short term at that.

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

A poster sent you a link showing PS are paid 50% on average, thats not even mentioning the myriad of reports that suggest the Ireland has one of the high paid public services in the OCED.

Every worker pays taxes and expect something in return not just to feather nest 300k workers and the ex workers for overpayment and for their pensions.

Take a worker for example me and my typical day and what I phucking have to pay in taxation. and not even bringing in the cost of services such as heat and light for phuck sake

I wake up in the morning in my bed within my house
Taxes paid - Stamp duty, property tax, VAT on my bed and mattress, duvet, sheets and pillows.

I decide to have a shower
Taxes paid - VAT on the electricity, shampoo and water charges

I go down and make make breakie toast and a coffee
Taxes paid - VAT on elecy, toaster and kettle and water charges

I leave the house and jump in the car to go to work
Taxes paid - Road tax, Carbon tax and VAT on petol, Vat on insurance, VRT on car, toll bridge and NCT

I arrive into work and work till lunch 9/10 hours
Tax paid - Income tax, Usc, PRSI

I drive home - See above

Make some dinner - See above for breakie

I watch some telly
See above for using elecy add in TV license

Also other service and bills that I need to pay for
Bin service/nessecities - used to be covered by general taxation
Creche fees
ESB
GAS
Food
Clothes
Mortgage


Now after all of this I still have to pay if I go to a doctor or hospital and worse still I get the pleasure of paying for the thousands that are on the dole to go aswell.

Now you tell me buddy am I over paying for services in this country

ans - PHUCK YES I AM

What about the fact that out of the 200billion in debt only 40billion (which may decrease as time goes on) is for the banks..who is to blame for the other 160 odd billion?


That does not include the fact that we are on the ledge for ridiculous pensions schemes for the PS

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_Economy/article_1025888_printer.shtml

have a quick look at this aswell
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2014/09/01/public-sector-the-insider-story

Good Man, Public servants have all those too plus an enforced pension contribution, So im sure you see the need for a pay rise after years of enforced reductions to their take home pay in line with what is happening in the private sector.

Halloween Jack

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct, and it would mean paying less tax for us citizens.

Absolutely, this private public nonsense is a smokescreen, people getting all hot and bothered about it are being had...

n97 mini

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Let's see some data.
You do realise that new teachers wages have decreased by over 25% of what they were.

New entrants only. The existing teachers unions voted to keep their own pay, at the expense of their future colleages. Nice. "Pulling up the ladder after them" was used to describe what they did.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/teachers-pay/

Rightwing

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Absolutely, this private public nonsense is a smokescreen, people getting all hot and bothered about it are being had...

Sectors of it have it bad, small business owners up and down the country, I'd feel for them, paying outrageous rates etc.

enricoh

increments are only awarded on completion of satisfactory service!

yeh i read about that completion of satisfactory performance bit alright. apparently 99 n a half % in the ps are doing great work n got theirs paid. i'd love to see what work the 0.5 % do for a year, god bless the unions keeping them unsackable!

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

Sectors of it have it bad, small business owners up and down the country, I'd feel for them, paying outrageous rates etc.

Maybe they should lower their prices or provide a worthwhile service.


I see publicans are trying to stop wetherspoons expanding in the country because it will " destroy the uniqueness" of the Irish pub.


They've already blamed the drink driving ban and the smoking ban for their decreased revenue but they've upped their prices just the same.

Halloween Jack

Rightwing wrote: »

Sectors of it have it bad, small business owners up and down the country, I'd feel for them, paying outrageous rates etc.

But the point I'm making is that this ordinary workers against each other is just a diversion. To my mind there is very little difference between me (ps) and a private worker doing a similar job. We both have similar aspirations motivations etc, there is however a vast difference between the both of us and those at the apex of our organisations...

Uncle Ben

I really can't see what the problem is here. Since Croke Park 1 and right through Haddington Road Agreement everyone involved, both unions and employers knew that this day was imminent. Anyone who read a newspaper should know it also as every detail was scrutinised.
Methinks the real reason is envy, jealousy or as someone else said begrudgery.
I won't be shy about looking for pay demands.

barneystinson

Halloween Jack wrote: »

If private sector corporations like apple paid even a fraction of the tax they should some of that cash might be circulating in the economy rather than sitting in an account gathering dust and interest...

What tax do you think Apple should owe here?

chopper6

enricoh wrote: »

increments are only awarded on completion of satisfactory service!

yeh i read about that completion of satisfactory performance bit alright. apparently 99 n a half % in the ps are doing great work n got theirs paid. i'd love to see what work the 0.5 % do for a year, god bless the unions keeping them unsackable!

99.5% efficiency is a good thing.


You wouldn't see that in the private sector

Halloween Jack

enricoh wrote: »

increments are only awarded on completion of satisfactory service!

yeh i read about that completion of satisfactory performance bit alright. apparently 99 n a half % in the ps are doing great work n got theirs paid. i'd love to see what work the 0.5 % do for a year, god bless the unions keeping them unsackable!

As a ps worker I would agree the application of performance management is awful, however, I have worked in private sector orgs with similar flaws. In both sectors I've come across many highly professional people and plenty of spoofers too...