Proposed Public sector pay rises

doc11

ezra_pound wrote: »

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/increase-in-salary-scale-for-2011-entrants-to-teaching.5632.html

Placing people on a merged scale just means your not limited in terms of max salary which in terms of pension means very little now with career average earnings.

A teacher previously started at point 3 on old scale(like all PS) (plus allowances), now after two years you will be moved to the "equivalent" rate on the old scale which could be point one(without allowances). Adding extra steps at the bottom of a ladder for new entrants to climb is not fair and saying new entrants are on the same pay scales now is stretching the truth. Payscales are rather meaningless if people are starting at different points or waiting to get on them.

jank

The Muppet wrote: »

The point you are missing is that he said they are leaving for better paid jobs in the private sector which blows a hole in the argument that the public sector is better paid that the private sector.

I really doubt any one here would want their public services run as a private company where the end user would pay the full cost of the service they are using.

Oh absolutely, if we could privatise and out source more public sector services the better. You sound as if public sector is somehow free. It all has to be paid for via the tax take.

jank

Godge wrote: »

€5.3 bn in 2015, below the 3% target, money is available for tax cuts and for social welfare bonuses, why not public service pay?

To be honest pointing to Social Welfare Bonuses and jumping up and down with your spoon saying 'where is my cut' is not going to sway anyone. Well anyone with a brain that is.

The fairest and most equitable way to redistribute the proceeds of a growing economy is in the form of tax cuts on income, especially the top rate which is crippling the middle class.

ALL workers benefit from this, not a minority in the PS. There is no logical reason other than selfishness to oppose this in favor of PS only pay increases.

jank

chopper6 wrote: »

99.5% efficiency is a good thing.


You wouldn't see that in the private sector

See, this is what pisses a lot of people off. The neck of some people who think they are entitled to increments because of time served. There is no way in hell that 99.5% of PS workers are satisfactory in their jobs. It just casts a light into the shoddy management and work practices that are endemic in the PS where work performance reviews are just box ticking exercise and where Unions make sure that no one can get fired even if they are more useless than a bag of potatoes. It reminds of the Soviet Union reporting increased production of agricultural products when the reality on the ground was a lot different.

ezra_pound

jank wrote: »

To be honest pointing to Social Welfare Bonuses and jumping up and down with your spoon saying 'where is my cut' is not going to sway anyone. Well anyone with a brain that is.

The fairest and most equitable way to redistribute the proceeds of a growing economy is in the form of tax cuts on income, especially the top rate which is crippling the middle class.

ALL workers benefit from this, not a minority in the PS. There is no logical reason other than selfishness to oppose this in favor of PS only pay increases.

I agree with you in principle. Notwithstanding the fact that by your logic the correction should have been made without the public sector taking the cuts in the first point.

However in reality this is not the issue with the unwinding of the public service pay cuts. Most of the pay cuts - all the pre Haddington road ones- are heading into dubious legal status, and if they are not slowly unwound, could be legally challenged which could get rid of all of them in one go, very suddenly. That would be a major shock to the public finances.

Rightwing

jank wrote: »

To be honest pointing to Social Welfare Bonuses and jumping up and down with your spoon saying 'where is my cut' is not going to sway anyone. Well anyone with a brain that is.

The fairest and most equitable way to redistribute the proceeds of a growing economy is in the form of tax cuts on income, especially the top rate which is crippling the middle class.

ALL workers benefit from this, not a minority in the PS. There is no logical reason other than selfishness to oppose this in favor of PS only pay increases.

The only solution really is to privatise the likes of the councils, and many other sections of the PS. Then give them whatever pay rises the require (but don't come to the tax payer for bailouts).

ezra_pound

Rightwing wrote: »

The only solution really is to privatise the likes of the councils, and many other sections of the PS. Then give them whatever pay rises the require (but don't come to the tax payer for bailouts).

Why the councils? How would you fund them? Greatly increasing property tax? New charges?

Rightwing

ezra_pound wrote: »

Why the councils? How would you fund them? Greatly increasing property tax? New charges?

Councils are just 1 section I'd like to see privatised.

Slash number, wages & conditions.

DeJa VooDoo

All PS workers earning more than 40k should have their pay cut by 20-30%.
Their salary should be linked to the private sector like it was during the celtic tiger years.

Funny how benchmarking only suits these type of (entitled) people when it suits.

The fact that they cry about pay cuts while receiving increments shows the warped and protected little bubble they live in.

Baggy Trousers

ezra_pound wrote: »

The question is not how much public sector workers should be paid. The question is, is the country still in an emergency, and a financial emergency at that.

Are you suggesting that governments should only be able to benchmark upwards? Nonsense. A government with balls would the friggin laws you are moaning about.

Financial emergency? Look at what our years of overspending has done here:
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland

And of course we have a public sector pension crisis looming - who is going to pay for that madness?

ezra_pound

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Are you suggesting that governments should only be able to benchmark upwards? Nonsense. A government with balls would the friggin laws you are moaning about.

Financial emergency? Look at what our years of overspending has done here:
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland

And of course we have a public sector pension crisis looming - who is going to pay for that madness?

I'm sorry but Your rant does not effect the law. The legal situation is that if we are no longer in a state of emergency, then the pay cuts have no legal standing and will fall.

If you don't understand the crux of the matter then find something simpler to rant about that you have the intellectual faculty to grasp.

ezra_pound

Rightwing wrote: »

Councils are just 1 section I'd like to see privatised.

Slash number, wages & conditions.

Reducing costs is not funding. You need funding.

Councils are your specific example. You want to see them privatised. Let me ask the question again, How will the private councils raise this money as privatised bodies?

Celticfire

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

All PS workers earning more than 40k should have their pay cut by 20-30%.
Their salary should be linked to the private sector like it was during the celtic tiger years.

What if their private sector counterpart at this moment in time is on more money??? You'd be fine with a pay raise? I'm a bit confused by your logic, cut wages and then make sure that they are linked to private sector even if that means an increase.

Funny how benchmarking only suits these type of (entitled) people when it suits.

Even funnier is the fact that you want another round of Benchmarking.

In the last round of Benchmarking I was awarded 0% but at the same time informed that to be level in pay with my private sector counterpart I would be due a 12% increase in pay, but seeing as I had reasonable job and wage security and pension (that I already contributed to ) this would not be awarded. After all the cuts and levies I can guarantee you that most PS workers would look forward to your proposed third round of Benchmarking.

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

I never said we were overpaid in the past. I said the pay cuts are only legal for the duration of the financial crisis.

I know you didnt say that public sector workers were overpaid in the past. but they were.

Baggy Trousers

ezra_pound wrote: »

I'm sorry but Your rant does not effect the law. The legal situation is that if we are no longer in a state of emergency, then the pay cuts have no legal standing and will fall.

If you don't understand the crux of the matter then find something simpler to rant about that you have the intellectual faculty to grasp.

That dubious legal argument is a smokescreen and you know it. And in any case, I do believe we are still in a financial state of emergency. Did you look at the link?

antoobrien

Godge wrote: »

€5.3 bn in 2015, below the 3% target, money is available for tax cuts and for social welfare bonuses, why not public service pay?

I disagree with all that as well.

We still have a lot of structural reforms to undertake, such as the cost of employment, insurance, light & heat, general services etc before we can put big money into stimulus.

DeJa VooDoo

Celticfire wrote: »

What if their private sector counterpart at this moment in time is on more money??? You'd be fine with a pay raise? I'm a bit confused by your logic, cut wages and then make sure that they are linked to private sector even if that means an increase.



Even funnier is the fact that you want another round of Benchmarking.

In the last round of Benchmarking I was awarded 0% but at the same time informed that to be level in pay with my private sector counterpart I would be due a 12% increase in pay, but seeing as I had reasonable job and wage security and pension (that I already contributed to ) this would not be awarded. After all the cuts and levies I can guarantee you that most PS workers would look forward to your proposed third round of Benchmarking.

When your private sector counterpart was having his wages and conditions slashed the public sector remained in the bubble it was in.
Because of the job security, guaranteed pension, increments etc etc, the public sector should be paid less than the private sector.
Fact is, we can't afford to continue paying tax after tax to keep the PS in the lifestyle it's become accustomed to.

Level the playing field at least and then we can have a proper discussion.

ezra_pound

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Are you suggesting that governments should only be able to benchmark upwards? Nonsense. A government with balls would the friggin laws you are moaning about.

Financial emergency? Look at what our years of overspending has done here:
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland

And of course we have a public sector pension crisis looming - who is going to pay for that madness?

We have a very large public debt and this needs to be tackld but we do not have a financial crisis. That is the question.

What government with balls would introduce new pay cuts? Sinn vein? The AAA? Greens?

OK maybe Maggie Thatcher. Wrong century. Wrong country.

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

Well that's not what the government think.

Links / sources for your opinion

jcon1913

ezra_pound wrote: »

AFAIK you're wrong again. It came down from 0.75 to 0.15 and is expected to be done away with at the end of this year.

Here let me help you in putting in a few links so it is not just heresay and unsupported opinions.

Heres a link to another post

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92595061

which says

It was 0.6% and due to end in 2014, but then Noonan reneged on his promise and a separate 0.15% was extended for 2015 - and also lobbed on top of the 0.6% for 2014 making 0.75%. So yes, it will reduce by 80% in 2015 (0.75% to 0.15%) as planned. However, it should have been the first thing to be addressed when there was some budgetary leeway, and abolished completely for 2015. It is a disgusting raid on the savings of private indivduals, and probably the most unfair taxation measure taken by any Irish government.

ENDS

So it will end at the end of 2015, unless the minister says otherwise.

Baggy Trousers

ezra_pound wrote: »

We have a very large public debt and this needs to be tackld but we do not have a financial crisis. That is the question.

What government with balls would introduce new pay cuts? Sinn vein? The AAA? Greens?

OK maybe Maggie Thatcher. Wrong century. Wrong country.

You're being dramatic now.
Don't ignore the current budget deficit - 7 billion I believe?
And interest payments - 3 billion?
Ah sure we're loaded, lets give more money to the unions.

ezra_pound

jcon1913 wrote: »

Links / sources for your opinion

Ok this is the third time I've posted this:

Howlin:
"Of course, there are pressures on it. As far as I am concerned, the big issue for this department as we move out of recession will be a structured way of unravelling FEMPI," he said.

Mr Howlin said the emergency measures legislation was "a significant part of the process" that brought the country through the crisis and he had to tell the Dail every June that the financial emergency continues to exist.

Catastrophic

"Otherwise that law falls. And it can't simply fall in one fell swoop as it would be catastrophic for the finances of the State," he added.

"So next year, we certainly will have to engage with the unions on the orderly winding down of FEMPI and who should benefit first and how that should be done over time," he said.

The minister said he could not specify when the pay and pension cuts will be reversed.

That has yet to be determined and it has to be done in an orderly way.

"But we have to plan for that day and we have to have agreement with the public 
sector unions that it is not going to be a big bang, because that would undo all the good work we have done over three years. There has to be an orderly wind-down, as opposed to a sudden ending," he said.

http://m.independent.i...n-cuts-30494594.html

Celticfire

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

When your private sector counterpart was having his wages and conditions slashed the public sector remained in the bubble it was in.
Because of the job security, guaranteed pension, increments etc etc, the public sector should be paid less than the private sector.
Fact is, we can't afford to continue paying tax after tax to keep the PS in the lifestyle it's become accustomed to.

Level the playing field at least and then we can have a proper discussion.

I was paid 12% less than my private sector counterpart and took my cuts also so please don't pretend that they didn't happen. I'll take your third round of Benchmarking tomorrow. The only problem will be your moaning as increases are awarded .

barneystinson

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

You're being dramatic now.
Don't ignore the current budget deficit - 7 billion I believe?
And interest payments - 3 billion?
Ah sure we're loaded, lets give more money to the unions.

It's less than 6bn deficit and that includes the 3bn interest.

Baggy Trousers

ezra_pound wrote: »

Ok this is the third time I've posted this:

Howlin:
"Of course, there are pressures on it. As far as I am concerned, the big issue for this department as we move out of recession will be a structured way of unravelling FEMPI," he said.

Mr Howlin said the emergency measures legislation was "a significant part of the process" that brought the country through the crisis and he had to tell the Dail every June that the financial emergency continues to exist.

Catastrophic

"Otherwise that law falls. And it can't simply fall in one fell swoop as it would be catastrophic for the finances of the State," he added.

"So next year, we certainly will have to engage with the unions on the orderly winding down of FEMPI and who should benefit first and how that should be done over time," he said.

The minister said he could not specify when the pay and pension cuts will be reversed.

That has yet to be determined and it has to be done in an orderly way.

"But we have to plan for that day and we have to have agreement with the public 
sector unions that it is not going to be a big bang, because that would undo all the good work we have done over three years. There has to be an orderly wind-down, as opposed to a sudden ending," he said.

http://m.independent.i...n-cuts-30494594.html

Mr Howlin...
That man was so scared of the unions, he was prepared to stand in front of the Dail (and the people) and say he could not find any allowances to cut. I think he hit 4% of his target cut figure. Some of these allowances that could not be cut were disgraceful. He should have been sacked.
Tell Howlin to come up with solutions not problems.

Baggy Trousers

barneystinson wrote: »

It's less than 6bn deficit and that includes the 3bn interest.

Incorrect.

The Irish Exchequer deficit at end-2014 was at €8.8bn

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1028586.shtml

Spending discipline must continue
While there has been significant progress in deficit reduction over recent years, there is still some work to do to reach the target of a structural balance by 2018. To do this, spending prudence must accompany strong tax revenues due to the economic recovery. With policymakers clamouring to promise a whole host of fiscal measures, a pre-election drive risks putting this spending discipline to the side."

Baggy Trousers

I forgot to add

Total Exchequer debt servicing costs for 2014 were €8.2bn

I think 3 billion of that is due to the banking debt that we nationalised.

Rightwing

ezra_pound wrote: »

Reducing costs is not funding. You need funding.

Councils are your specific example. You want to see them privatised. Let me ask the question again, How will the private councils raise this money as privatised bodies?

Reducing costs means less need for funding. Funding isn't the problem here. Councils milk businesses with rates, car tax & parking, etc.
Overblown budgets is the problem.

Doing unnecessary work.

The scene of about 10 council workers tacking a pothole, 4 engineers discussing how to get rid of a ditch, 2 with stop/go signs, 4 lads with shovels. This type of stuff characterises every aspect of the PS.

Godge

ezra_pound wrote: »

Ok this is the third time I've posted this:

Howlin:
"Of course, there are pressures on it. As far as I am concerned, the big issue for this department as we move out of recession will be a structured way of unravelling FEMPI," he said.

Mr Howlin said the emergency measures legislation was "a significant part of the process" that brought the country through the crisis and he had to tell the Dail every June that the financial emergency continues to exist.

Catastrophic

"Otherwise that law falls. And it can't simply fall in one fell swoop as it would be catastrophic for the finances of the State," he added.

"So next year, we certainly will have to engage with the unions on the orderly winding down of FEMPI and who should benefit first and how that should be done over time," he said.

The minister said he could not specify when the pay and pension cuts will be reversed.

That has yet to be determined and it has to be done in an orderly way.

"But we have to plan for that day and we have to have agreement with the public 
sector unions that it is not going to be a big bang, because that would undo all the good work we have done over three years. There has to be an orderly wind-down, as opposed to a sudden ending," he said.

http://m.independent.i...n-cuts-30494594.html

You are 100% correct in this, the pay cuts and pension levy are only justifiable in a financial emergency. The immediacy of the financial emergency is over. Now, there isn't enough money to reverse all of the pay cuts overnight but now that the Government is in a position to increase discretionary spending and reduce USC and income tax (and it has done both for 2015), that means that there is money to address some of the pay cuts. And they must be addressed, the legislation specifically provides for this.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0005/sec0013.html#sec13

"Before 30 June in 2010 and every year after 2010, the Minister shall—

(a) carry out a review of the operation, effectiveness and impact of this Act, having regard to the overall economic conditions in the State and national competitiveness,

(b) consider whether or not any of the provisions of this Act continue to be necessary having regard to the purposes of this Act, the overall economic conditions in the State, national competitiveness and Exchequer commitments in respect of public service pensions,

(c) make such findings as he or she thinks appropriate consequent on such review and consideration, and

(d) cause a written report of his or her findings resulting from the review and consideration to be prepared and laid before each House of the Oireachtas."


The Minister must review the measures every year. That review can be judicially challenged by the unions. Howlin is well aware of this and realises something has to be given this June.

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Incorrect.

The Irish Exchequer deficit at end-2014 was at €8.8bn

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1028586.shtml

Deficit for 2015 is projected to be €5.3 billion.

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

When your private sector counterpart was having his wages and conditions slashed the public sector remained in the bubble it was in.
.

What planet were you living on?

Pay, pensions in the public sector were cut, working hours increased and annual and sick leave cut.

In the private sector, there were few pay cuts, there were job losses, significant ones and also pay freezes but there were very few pay cuts.

At the moment, pay is going up in the private sector and has been for the last 2/3 years depending on the employment.

As usual though, don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

BoJack Horseman

Godge wrote: »

At the moment, pay is going up in the private sector and has been for the last 2/3 years depending on the employment.

This is news to me & all of my family.

When the 50% gap between private & public wages closes, let us know!

Rightwing

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

This is news to me & all of my family.

When the 50% gap between private & public wages closes, let us know!

It certainly is going up in certain sections like banking & finance, and probably ICT. But it is also going up in the PS unless increments are frozen (I don't know if they are or not).

ezra_pound

Rightwing wrote: »

Reducing costs means less need for funding. Funding isn't the problem here. Councils milk businesses with rates, car tax & parking, etc.
Overblown budgets is the problem.

Doing unnecessary work.

The scene of about 10 council workers tacking a pothole, 4 engineers discussing how to get rid of a ditch, 2 with stop/go signs, 4 lads with shovels. This type of stuff characterises every aspect of the PS.

I'm sorry but councils are very largely funded by general taxation from the exchequer. Many of them are also funded from other councils' lpts, like Dublin's.

I'm not asking you about identifying cuts, I'm asking you how you're going to fund them to begin with. The present lpt raises under 500k for the entire country. Local authority roads are heavily bailed out from the exchequer as road traffic fines and motor tax don't nearly cover the roads bill.

So how is local government going to cover this huge gap which is currently covered by the exchequer. In 2006 this gap was about 40% of spending or about 4 bn euro. Even if you fired every employee you'd probably still have a gap y to fill.

As a private organisation needing to create profits how are you going to fill this gap? What services do you cut? And what funding sources do you create? Because you cannot fill that gap with just redundancy and pay cuts. It's not possible. You'd have to identify real cuts.

Would you increase the lpt 5 times over? Or would you increase motor tax rates?

Godge

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

This is news to me & all of my family.

When the 50% gap between private & public wages closes, let us know!

I have posted about this before.

Allergan Pharmaceuticals, Astellas, Braun, Covidien, Henkel, Leo Pharma, Medtronic, Nestle, Novartis, Pfizer, Analog Devices, Cargotec, Glen Dimplex, Hasbro, Liebherr Container Cranes, Novum, Radionics, Rusal Aughinish, Thermo Air, Vitabond, Boliden Tara Mines, Kingspan, Britvic, Dawn Pok & Bacon, Dew Valley Foods, Glanbia, Irish Distillers, Lakeland Dairies, Largo Foods, Pepsico, Heatons, Indesit, Tesco, Boots, Dunnes, Arnotts, Bank of Ireland, Irish Life, Eircom and SR Technics are a sample of companies that have given a pay increase in the last year.

I could provide more names but from the list above, it is clear that pay increases are now widespread across the private sector economy.

Bob24

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

All PS workers earning more than 40k should have their pay cut by 20-30%.
Their salary should be linked to the private sector like it was during the celtic tiger years.

Perfect way to convince any qualified and motivated professional in the public sector to leave.

The reality of things is that salary decreases in the private sector have been anything but even depending on industries/qualifications. I am in IT myself and haven't seen any colleagues/contacts (all private) take a paycut in the past 10 years. My impression is that the same holds true for people working in accounting.

Give a 30% paycut to all software developers in the public sector and I think you can be sure the only ones left will be those who are useless and can't find a job anywhere else.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying everyone there is underpaid (far from it), but the good old "all civil servants are useless and overpaid" attitude is not very constructive either I think (and if pushed as far as your suggest, it certainly becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as no motivated and qualified professional in their right mind would work there).

Rightwing

ezra_pound wrote: »

I'm sorry but councils are very largely funded by general taxation from the exchequer. Many of them are also funded from other councils' lpts, like Dublin's.

I'm not asking you about identifying cuts, I'm asking you how you're going to fund them to begin with. The present lpt raises under 500k for the entire country. Local authority roads are heavily bailed out from the exchequer as road traffic fines and motor tax don't nearly cover the roads bill.

So how is local government going to cover this huge gap which is currently covered by the exchequer. In 2006 this gap was about 40% of spending or about 4 bn euro. Even if you fired every employee you'd probably still have a gap y to fill.

As a private organisation needing to create profits how are you going to fill this gap? What services do you cut? And what funding sources do you create? Because you cannot fill that gap with just redundancy and pay cuts. It's not possible. You'd have to identify real cuts.

Would you increase the lpt 5 times over? Or would you increase motor tax rates?

That's no surprise. If they were privatised, we'd quickly get a true picture of what's needed, and what isn't.

Do we need to be funding this type of madness:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayor-takes-9000-pay-cut-but-still-earns-more-than-spanish-pm-26897042.html
THE country's highest-paid Lord Mayor has volunteered to take a €9,000 pay cut -- but he will still earn more than the prime ministers of Israel, Sweden, Spain and even Russia.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/organisations-are-top-heavy-with-high-earners-189877.html
Or librarians in Dublin:
Astonishingly, the Dublin city librarian earns more than the prime minister of Spain at €106,900 (the top of pay scale). Spain’s prime minister receives an annual salary of about €92,000, so in fact it’s not just the head librarian who earns more than him, but many of those working in top local authority positions.

antoobrien

Godge wrote: »

I have posted about this before.

Allergan Pharmaceuticals, Astellas, Braun, Covidien, Henkel, Leo Pharma, Medtronic, Nestle, Novartis, Pfizer, Analog Devices, Cargotec, Glen Dimplex, Hasbro, Liebherr Container Cranes, Novum, Radionics, Rusal Aughinish, Thermo Air, Vitabond, Boliden Tara Mines, Kingspan, Britvic, Dawn Pok & Bacon, Dew Valley Foods, Glanbia, Irish Distillers, Lakeland Dairies, Largo Foods, Pepsico, Heatons, Indesit, Tesco, Boots, Dunnes, Arnotts, Bank of Ireland, Irish Life, Eircom and SR Technics are a sample of companies that have given a pay increase in the last year.

I could provide more names but from the list above, it is clear that pay increases are now widespread across the private sector economy.

So what? The last deficit is over 8bn. If we want to hit a projected deficit of 5-6bn we need to make sure spending budgets - that don't include PS pay raises - are adhered to.

Otherwise that list of companies will need higher pay and higher tax to pay for it.

jcon1913

Godge wrote: »

You are 100% correct in this, the pay cuts and pension levy are only justifiable in a financial emergency. The immediacy of the financial emergency is over. Now, there isn't enough money to reverse all of the pay cuts overnight but now that the Government is in a position to increase discretionary spending and reduce USC and income tax (and it has done both for 2015), that means that there is money to address some of the pay cuts. And they must be addressed, the legislation specifically provides for this.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0005/sec0013.html#sec13

"Before 30 June in 2010 and every year after 2010, the Minister shall—

(a) carry out a review of the operation, effectiveness and impact of this Act, having regard to the overall economic conditions in the State and national competitiveness,

(b) consider whether or not any of the provisions of this Act continue to be necessary having regard to the purposes of this Act, the overall economic conditions in the State, national competitiveness and Exchequer commitments in respect of public service pensions,

(c) make such findings as he or she thinks appropriate consequent on such review and consideration, and

(d) cause a written report of his or her findings resulting from the review and consideration to be prepared and laid before each House of the Oireachtas."


The Minister must review the measures every year. That review can be judicially challenged by the unions. Howlin is well aware of this and realises something has to be given this June.




Deficit for 2015 is projected to be €5.3 billion.



What planet were you living on?

Pay, pensions in the public sector were cut, working hours increased and annual and sick leave cut.

In the private sector, there were few pay cuts, there were job losses, significant ones and also pay freezes but there were very few pay cuts.

At the moment, pay is going up in the private sector and has been for the last 2/3 years depending on the employment.

As usual though, don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

Sorry to burst your own bubble - private sector employees took cuts of between 10 and 30% to my knowledge. Not all private sectors workers are in an IT company in Dublin 4, where these pay increases seem to be most prevalent. ''As usual though, don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.''

I think most people will not have a problem giving wage increases to lower paid workers in the public sector. What most people will see as a problem is when people like nurses, guards and teachers on fair salaries after the cuts get their noses in the trough.

Taking the amount of money spent on salaries in accordance with figures available publicly and dividing by the number of teachers on the books Average cost of a Primary Schoolteacher in 2014 : €61,747 - source Dept of Education figures here:

http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Estimates/Revised-Estimates-for-the-Public-Service/Revised-Estimates-for-Public-Services-2014.pdf

Theres a lot of people not on entry level salaries on that figure so senior teachers are on good wages.

An Garda Siochana - average numbers in 2014 approx 13,000, salary costs you can find here

http://www.per.gov.ie/estpubexp2013/

total €928,784,000 meaning average salary costs €71,445.

BoJack Horseman

Godge wrote: »

it is clear that pay increases are now widespread across the private sector economy.

180,000 companies in the state.....

The above large corporations arent representative.

Also, I'd like to see the average salary of new jobs today vs 2007.

There are jobs available, but the pay is certainly less than in the past.

noodler

Godge wrote: »

You are talking about 2008 when you talk about 3/4 companies going to the wall each week. Employment has been going up for he last two years.

As for pay in the private sector, loads and loads of companies have given pay increases in the last year. Industrial Relations News recently listed 100 companies that they know of that brought in pay deals in 2014 ranging from the likes of Leo Pharma (6% over 39 months), Micro Bio (8%, some backdated to 2013), Pfizer (4% over 18 months) in the chemical manufacturing sector through others like Hasbro, Analog, Glen Dimplex in other areas of manufacturing, to Kingspan, Murphy International and Murray Timber in construction to Britvic, Lakeland Dairies, Glanbia in Food, to Arnotts, Boots, Dunnes and Tesco in retailing to many others like Eircom and Irish Life.

Pay rises are now the norm in the private sector - where do you think all the extra income tax is coming from????

You really need to lose the 2008 vibe and get with the times.

I agree with alot of what you say but - the bit in bold - its coming from a substantial increase in the number of people in work primarily.

Generalisations like 'pay rises are now the norm in the private sector' are almost as bad as 'all public servants are lazy, overpaid.." etc etc.

noodler

Godge wrote: »

Pay, pensions in the public sector were cut, working hours increased and annual and sick leave cut.

Was annual leave cut? I know privlige days were simply given back as annual leave.

I have to admit, as a PS worker, the sick leave was cut but from a fairly generous level.

Godge wrote: »

In the private sector, there were few pay cuts, there were job losses, significant ones and also pay freezes but there were very few pay cuts.

You always maintain there were no pay cuts in the private sector but can you prove this without referencing the same CSO figures which illustrate a 300 euro a week gap between the private and public sectors?

Also, on a more wholistic level, 200,000 workers or so being unemployed (and the subseuqent effect that has on tax take and SW spend) is probably a more likely thing upon which to base other Government spending such as PS pay rather than whether or not the remaining workers kept their salaries intact.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

That's no surprise. If they were privatised, we'd quickly get a true picture of what's needed, and what isn't.

Do we need to be funding this type of madness:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayor-takes-9000-pay-cut-but-still-earns-more-than-spanish-pm-26897042.html
THE country's highest-paid Lord Mayor has volunteered to take a €9,000 pay cut -- but he will still earn more than the prime ministers of Israel, Sweden, Spain and even Russia.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/organisations-are-top-heavy-with-high-earners-189877.html
Or librarians in Dublin:
Astonishingly, the Dublin city librarian earns more than the prime minister of Spain at €106,900 (the top of pay scale). Spain’s prime minister receives an annual salary of about €92,000, so in fact it’s not just the head librarian who earns more than him, but many of those working in top local authority positions.

The top scale in my job is the 120k per year...with a responsibility for 20 000 people...an ex of mine was making that in retail with a crew of fewer than 20.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

That's no surprise. If they were privatised, we'd quickly get a true picture of what's needed, and what isn't.

Do we need to be funding this type of madness:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/mayor-takes-9000-pay-cut-but-still-earns-more-than-spanish-pm-26897042.html
THE country's highest-paid Lord Mayor has volunteered to take a €9,000 pay cut -- but he will still earn more than the prime ministers of Israel, Sweden, Spain and even Russia.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/organisations-are-top-heavy-with-high-earners-189877.html
Or librarians in Dublin:
Astonishingly, the Dublin city librarian earns more than the prime minister of Spain at €106,900 (the top of pay scale). Spain’s prime minister receives an annual salary of about €92,000, so in fact it’s not just the head librarian who earns more than him, but many of those working in top local authority positions.

The top scale in my job is the 120k per year...with a responsibility for 20 000 people...an ex of mine was making that in retail with a crew of fewer than 20.

fliball123

The Muppet wrote: »

Good Man, Public servants have all those too plus an enforced pension contribution, So im sure you see the need for a pay rise after years of enforced reductions to their take home pay in line with what is happening in the private sector.

At least you get a pension for that and one that the rest of the private sector have to subsidise whilst not being able to afford their own.... No payrises should happen until the country is no longer borrowing and actually in the black like the majority of the companies in the private sector that are giving payrises. Also its a joke sure there were payrises going on all the way through the phucking recession throughout the public sector its a joke and one that I and my colleges that work within the private sector cannot afford at present.

fliball123

Uncle Ben wrote: »

I really can't see what the problem is here. Since Croke Park 1 and right through Haddington Road Agreement everyone involved, both unions and employers knew that this day was imminent. Anyone who read a newspaper should know it also as every detail was scrutinised.
Methinks the real reason is envy, jealousy or as someone else said begrudgery.
I won't be shy about looking for pay demands.

And the likes of myself and those being asked to pay for it will not be shy in telling you that your employer is broke and borrowing and we already pay far too much in taxes when both direct and indirect taxation come into play ..Anyone who can do maths will understand that the day you talk about will not happen until 2020 or so

fliball123

ezra_pound wrote: »

Shocking that you have to pay for food, electricity, gas, entertainment, bin collection and clothes after paying tax - and a mortgage!

If the state provided all of these for free from taxation the economy would boom for sure.

I'm sure the bastards in the PS don't have to! It's all their fault anyway.

You know there's a place called north Korea that you might prefer. It's very heavily guarded though because so many people want to live in that utopia.

Its not so much the utilities or goods I have a problem paying its the phucking tax that I have to shell out on top of payring for the good or service to keep the PS in the lavish luxury that they are entitled apparently

fliball123

jcon1913 wrote: »

The law needs to be changed. In the national interest. As Dessie OMalley was fond of saying. Have you even one shred of evidence that public sector workers are underpaid? Apart from that they used to be overpaid in the past and should be again?

On the flip have you any evidence that they are underpaid? and why they deserve payrises above increments?

BoJack Horseman

chopper6 wrote: »

an ex of mine was making that in retail with a crew of fewer than 20.

Who is the small retailer paying €120,000?

fliball123

Letree wrote: »

I think the public service deserve a payrise, they have been attacked left right and centre over the last 7 years. Paycuts, Pension levies, extra hours, less staff, more work, less holidays. Although i would increase their take home pay by reducing the pension levy rather than a direct payrise.

And what about all of the bloat the decade before this? Hows about a fairer way of giving them a payrise and cut USC this was supposedly a temp measure aswell

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

At least you get a pension for that and one that the rest of the private sector have to subsidise whilst not being able to afford their own.... No payrises should happen until the country is no longer borrowing and actually in the black like the majority of the companies in the private sector that are giving payrises. Also its a joke sure there were payrises going on all the way through the phucking recession throughout the public sector its a joke and one that I and my colleges that work within the private sector cannot afford at present.

At least you have the option not to pay into a pension. Public servants were not given that option.

What we are talking about here is a reversal of the cuts implemented as an emergency measure now that the emergency is over.

Don't you think its hypocritical that when the pension levy was introduced there was a refusal from your camp to recognize it as a pay cut, yet now that there is talk or removing the levy you would see that as a pay rise?

fliball123

Letree wrote: »

All jokes aside Fliball123 would have them on about €400 a week

I would leave them as is at present until we are no longer borrowing...
I would leave them as is until a proper scrutinized pay performance related mechanism is in place instead of pay for length of tenure
I would leave them as is until we change ps pensions to defined contribution instead of defined benefit

Then by all means if someone in the PS is worth 200k pay them it