Proposed Public sector pay rises

Ctrl Alt Delete

fliball123 wrote: »

Does the ps pay bill go up = Yes
Does the pay that goes to the individual employee go up = YES
Does the tax payer have to give more for theis = YES

Anyway you cut it..this is a payrise, what you are arguing is semantics

Many on here was saying the implementation of the pension levy wasn't a pay cut despite wages going down.

Would you agree pension levy is a pay cut or not?

Rightwing

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Brain drain in public sector is not just well underway I'd go so far as to say it's endemic at this stage.

What non Public Sector people don't realise is that Haddington Road effectively put Private Sector working conditions for Public Sector pay scales into the Civil / Public Service.

For me that meant my work / life balance in the Public Sector was decimated and so had no incentive to stay, I took a career break and returned to the Private Sector on an extra €25,000 a year pay difference (I always did get giggles how Public Sector are supposedly paid more than the Private Sector)

Anyone with the skills , experience or qualifications have well gotten out if they can at this stage and whats left in the main is the "career coasters".

This is what I like to see. The best people must always work in the private sector. Reward those with the courage to leave. Workers in the PS, should be extra time off if something is to be given (another 20 days if need be), but certainly no more money.

Baggy Trousers

There is a pension crisis looming and being completely ignored by Howlin and our crappy government. That's when the real fun will happen. Even though many many people in the private sector have no pension, the state pension will have to be reduced dramatically in order to pay for the public sector pensions.

fliball123

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Many on here was saying the implementation of the pension levy wasn't a pay cut despite wages going down.

Would you agree pension levy is a pay cut or not?

I would say its a long over due contribution to a defined benefit as can be seen by the fact that is tax deductable

Ctrl Alt Delete

Rightwing wrote: »

This is what I like to see. The best people must always work in the private sector.

The best people really need to be in both public and private sectors.

Because some of whats left "managing" in the public service is frightening. I include in that an IT manager who tried tuning a radio to fix a printer "becuase it can cause interferance" (100% serious) and another manager who could not understand why the black and white picture she was trying to copy on the copier would not print in color.

I make neither of those examples up, both happened and both are "managing" section of the public sector as we speak.

Ctrl Alt Delete

fliball123 wrote: »

I would say its a long over due contribution to a defined benefit as can be seen by the fact that is tax deductable

But wages went down so by your rationale above that was also a pay cut no ? Afterall "Does the pay that goes to the individual employee go up = YES" thats a payrise so obviously the reverse is true too

fliball123

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

But wages went down so by your rationale above that was also a pay cut no ?

But you get a pension in return for this but I accept that pay went down

Ctrl Alt Delete

fliball123 wrote: »

But you get a pension in return for this

You make it sound great. Any idea of the amount of PS workers who would gladly give up this great pension.

Regardless of which, money goes down for the employee so that equals a pay cut too yes?

fliball123

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

You make it sound great. Any idea of the amount of PS workers who would gladly give up this great pension.

Regardless of which, money goes down for the employee so that equals a pay cut too yes?

Any idea how much it would cost in the real world to fund the pension system that goes on in the public sector ???

Well why have they not gone and said it that they will give up their pension for the levy back..you wont get any argument from the private sector if you do so? I know you cant but the likes of yourself should be arguing for an option like this instead of just asking for the tax payer to pay more to cover what you are paying

Rightwing

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

The best people really need to be in both public and private sectors.

Because some of whats left "managing" in the public service is frightening. I include in that an IT manager who tried tuning a radio to fix a printer "becuase it can cause interferance" (100% serious) and another manager who could not understand why the black and white picture she was trying to copy on the copier would not print in color.

I make neither of those examples up, both happened and both are "managing" section of the public sector as we speak.

These people just shouldn't be in jobs, they'd be less of a liability on the welfare. The best workers will deliver value for shareholders and stimulate growth. In the public sector, they may be doing something that's not even needed.

Ctrl Alt Delete

fliball123 wrote: »

Any idea how much it would cost in the real world to fund the pension system that goes on in the public sector ???

Well why have they not gone and said it that they will give up their pension for the levy back..you wont get any argument from the private sector if you do so? I know you cant but the likes of yourself should be arguing for an option like this instead of just asking for the tax payer to pay more to cover what you are paying

It was argued but shot down because of the "legacy" or to be more specific the thousands of retired PS workers on their pension who would wake up one morning to find no pension payment due to too many cancelling their payments.

Ctrl Alt Delete

Rightwing wrote: »

These people just shouldn't be in jobs, they'd be less of a liability on the welfare. The best workers will deliver value for shareholders and stimulate growth. In the public sector, they may be doing something that's not even needed.

100% but these are the type of people you have "managing" the PS now because anyone with qualifications, skills or experience who could go back to the private sector has gone.

Then you have publicjobs.ie advertising for new managers who will essentially have no public service experience and will also make a complete dogs dinner of their job for the first 3 or 4 years.

You also do realise that public sector workers also stimulate growth in their roles???

JPF82

fliball123 wrote: »

You see this is where your wrong this is not a race.This is simply a balancing act if these payrises go through it means less in the pocket for private sector employees..there is no race to the bottom it is at a point now where everyone is looking at their own take home pay and do not want it to shink any further...If howlin gives a payrise it means it comes out of my pocket it is that simple

I agree, there is no race to the bottom. I was just stating what these arguments sometimes sound like. The increased taxes have been a great burden on the middle classes. I see this myself. The USC reversal would be fairer across the board at present, but it would not address the issue of fairness of pay within the PS. New entrants are being penalised compared to those that are there longer. (I know I would have a bias on this) Performance reviews should be the basis of pay rises.

There is a sense that the longer serving PS employees threw the new graduates under the bus to preserve their higher rates.

fliball123

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

It was argued but shot down because of the "legacy" or to be more specific the thousands of retired PS workers on their pension who would wake up one morning to find no pension payment due to too many cancelling their payments.

and why is that is the taxpayers problem ??

Ctrl Alt Delete

fliball123 wrote: »

and why is that is the taxpayers problem ??

seriously you are asking that? you cant see the multitude of problems that would cause no ???

Rightwing

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

100% but these are the type of people you have "managing" the PS now because anyone with qualifications, skills or experience who could go back to the private sector has gone.

Then you have publicjobs.ie advertising for new managers who will essentially have no public service experience and will also make a complete dogs dinner of their job for the first 3 or 4 years.

You also do realise that public sector workers also stimulate growth in their roles???

Has to be limited because it's essentially profit v service. I'd always favour profit. These profits can be ploughed back into the economy.

I pay a premium for health insurance, If sick, I want to go to a private hospital, I believe that I should get a better service there, have better medical care than in a public one. I don't think any State should be able to compete with the free enterprise for the best workers.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

I would say its a long over due contribution to a defined benefit as can be seen by the fact that is tax deductable

Again, this statement seems to suggest that PS don't contribute to their pensions, which of course they have always done, long before the PRD.

fliball123

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

seriously you are asking that? you cant see the multitude of problems that would cause no ???

I see the problem but I dont see why the problem should reside on a sector where very few can afford their own pension

Ctrl Alt Delete

fliball123 wrote: »

I see the problem but I dont see why the problem should reside on a sector where very few can afford their own pension

it doesn't it resides on the state

fliball123

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

it doesn't it resides on the state

Would you go and phuck who provides the state with money

maggiepip

fliball123 wrote: »

But you get a pension in return for this but I accept that pay went down

Also you need to basically work your entire working life within the PS to get a full pension out of your contributions, many many people work there for example 10 years (make high pension contributions monthly), and get a pension of little more than the state pension, which one is entitled to anyway. Your final pension figure includes the state pension to make up the amount , in other words you dont get both. So say you work ten years retire and get a pension of 250 p/w, that 250 includes the full state pension which is approx 230 euro). Therefore all your contributions have only given you an extra 30 quid a week at the end of it.

fliball123

maggiepip wrote: »

Also you need to basically work your entire working life within the PS to get a full pension out of your contributions, many many people work there for example 10 years (make high pension contributions monthly), and get a pension of little more than the state pension, which one is entitled to anyway. Your final pension figure includes the state pension to make up the amount , in other words you dont get both. So say you work ten years retire and get a pension of 250 p/w, that 250 includes the full state pension which is approx 230 euro). Therefore all your contributions have only given you an extra 30 quid a week at the end of it.

This may be true Maggie yet there is s massive deficit that need filling when it comes to public sector pensions if this was the norm this would not be the case

jcon1913

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its not a payrise, its a pending lapse of an emergency piece of legislation which needs annual renewal

Labour wont dare renew it this close to an election as it will finish them, so it wont pass in the Dáil in its current form.

Lets call it a restoration.

Lets call it a widening of the pay gap between public sector workers and private sector workers.

maggiepip

fliball123 wrote: »

This may be true Maggie yet there is s massive deficit that need filling when it comes to public sector pensions if this was the norm this would not be the case

Im trying to point out that theres not a pot of gold for most workers in there, and many people would gladly opt out of the compulsary pension contributions if they could.

noodler

maggiepip wrote: »

Im trying to point out that theres not a pot of gold for most workers in there, and many people would gladly opt out of the compulsary pension contributions if they could.

Why would you opt out of a pension that would cost multiples of what you are currently paying in if you had to try and replicate the same projected in the private sector?

Nevermind the issue of administration fees and lack of uncertainty.

maggiepip

noodler wrote: »

Why would you opt out of a pension that would cost multiples of what you are currently paying in if you had to try and replicate the same projected in the private sector?

Nevermind the issue of administration fees and lack of uncertainty.

Because for many people who wont have spent their entire working lives in the public service, the contributions they have to make only get them a few quid above the state pension when they retire.

Baggy Trousers

At least we fixed the unemployment problem

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterdecember2014/#.VL-1UmMWlg0

fliball123

maggiepip wrote: »

Im trying to point out that theres not a pot of gold for most workers in there, and many people would gladly opt out of the compulsary pension contributions if they could.

I know maggie but you miss the point that it will be incumbent on tax payers to pay for the hole that is currently in public sector pensions and if we remove the pension levy that hole gets deeper...There is no pot of gold only a hole in the ground that ps expect taxpayers to fill up with their hard earned money

LordNorbury

The Muppet wrote: »

Perhaps you should change the thread title as we are not really talking about a pay rise for the PS at all.

Your lumping all Public service workers together ignoring the fact that a large chunk of them are quite poorly paid. In 2013 nearly 4000 public servants were in receipt of the family income supplement, how can they get that that if they are overpaid?

link

This is true, I've a friend who is a midwife in a Dublin maternity hospital, she is grossing 34K a year I think it is and works a lot of shift/night work. You can't argue that that is a highly paid, or even a well paid job.

The problem isn't the nurse on 34K a year, it is the teachers and the Gardai who can pass through automatic payscales that have them up at 60 and 70K a year, and it is civil servant beancounters who have been plodding along in the system for years and are retiring on index linked pensions in addition to massive tax free lump sums.

One thing that we need to get rid of is this "job for life" mentality that exists in the Irish public sector. There is no longer such a thing as a "job for life", anywhere else in this country. Under the Croke Park Agreement, nobody, not one single person, had to look at a compulsory redundancy. Any redundancies that came about were purely voluntary. Some of what was and still is going on is outrageous, teachers retiring on massive lump sums and pensions, then being rehired on a "business needs" basis, while a young qualified teacher in the same town was left on the dole. There is no excuse for this kind of a completely dumb decision, yet it is still going on up and down the country.

The point being, that we have really sorted out absolutely nothing in this country, common sense is still a complete stranger to most decisions we make, because we can't implement simple common sense decisions because vested interests own the day every single time.

Baggy Trousers

LordNorbury wrote: »

This is true, I've a friend who is a midwife in a Dublin maternity hospital, she is grossing 34K a year I think it is and works a lot of shift/night work. You can't argue that that is a highly paid, or even a well paid job.

The problem isn't the nurse on 34K a year, it is the teachers and the Gardai who can pass through automatic payscales that have them up at 60 and 70K a year, and it is civil servant beancounters who have been plodding along in the system for years and are retiring on index linked pensions in addition to massive tax free lump sums.

One thing that we need to get rid of is this "job for life" mentality that exists in the Irish public sector. There is no longer such a thing as a "job for life", anywhere else in this country. Under the Croke Park Agreement, nobody, not one single person, had to look at a compulsory redundancy. Any redundancies that came about were purely voluntary. Some of what was and still is going on is outrageous, teachers retiring on massive lump sums and pensions, then being rehired on a "business needs" basis, while a young qualified teacher in the same town was left on the dole. There is no excuse for this kind of a completely dumb decision, yet it is still going on up and down the country.

The point being, that we have really sorted out absolutely nothing in this country, common sense is still a complete stranger to most decisions we make, because we can't implement simple common sense decisions because vested interests own the day every single time.

I'll vote for you LordNorbury

Godge

jcon1913 wrote: »

Can you deal with the facts here rather than petty points about individuals.

You quoted an opinion article as a fact. No opinion is fact.

I just pointed out that the opinion writer was biased.

K-9

Mod:

Less of the "go and get a job somewhere else/leave the country" quality discussion. Seriously like!

Slieve

The vast majority of Gardai are on noting near €70,000 per year

not yet

fliball123 wrote: »

How do you know it excludes bank mangers I would hazard a guess that there are more high paying private sector jobs skewing the figures for the private sector than those in the public sector...You also completely ignore the point of the fact your employer the state has to borrow anywhere in the region of 5 - 8 billion this year...

The country won't run on fumes....

I for one will glady stick my snout back in the trough...

LordNorbury

If a party was created in this country in the morning that had ambitious yet firm policies to sort out our public sector and the maladministration that is clearly going on in there, to stand up to the vested interests that have this country pretty much wrecked, that had a vision to create a sustainable, fair and progressive employment model for all of society, so that whether you were in the public or private sector, that you had a right to similar fundamental entitlements, concerning your employment rights, your pension rights when you retire, your right to career progression while you are still in the workplace, your right to a qualified continuation of employment once your employer has a need for your position, I would vote for such a party in the morning.

Some might argue that employment law affords everyone these fundamental minimum employment rights, which it does in theory but not in practice.

In my view this goes back to "social Partnership", I'll never forget back in the 90's, I worked for a large US multinational that refused to recognise unions, but the same organisation was directing the partnership process through it's own representation via IBEC. This kind of corruption is the cause of a lot of our woes.

Bob24

LordNorbury wrote: »

This is true, I've a friend who is a midwife in a Dublin maternity hospital, she is grossing 34K a year I think it is and works a lot of shift/night work. You can't argue that that is a highly paid, or even a well paid job.

The problem isn't the nurse on 34K a year, it is the teachers and the Gardai who can pass through automatic payscales that have them up at 60 and 70K a year, and it is civil servant beancounters who have been plodding along in the system for years and are retiring on index linked pensions in addition to massive tax free lump sums.

One thing that we need to get rid of is this "job for life" mentality that exists in the Irish public sector. There is no longer such a thing as a "job for life", anywhere else in this country. Under the Croke Park Agreement, nobody, not one single person, had to look at a compulsory redundancy. Any redundancies that came about were purely voluntary. Some of what was and still is going on is outrageous, teachers retiring on massive lump sums and pensions, then being rehired on a "business needs" basis, while a young qualified teacher in the same town was left on the dole. There is no excuse for this kind of a completely dumb decision, yet it is still going on up and down the country.

The point being, that we have really sorted out absolutely nothing in this country, common sense is still a complete stranger to most decisions we make, because we can't implement simple common sense decisions because vested interests own the day every single time.

Absolutely. The fact that new entrants are on a different pay-scale compared to previous civil servants and are getting paid less for doing the same job at the same career level is also ridiculous.

2 things are needed to fix these things though:
- the government needs to grew some balls and to take from some civil servants to give to others.
- a good part of the general public needs to smart-up and realise that in some cases the work conditions of civil servants are not as good as people would like to believe and that it is impacting the ability to attract and retain some qualified people which are needed.

Good luck for any of these things to change ;-)

fliball123

not yet wrote: »

The country won't run on fumes....

I for one will glady stick my snout back in the trough...

We pay more than enough to have a first class public service which we do not have..so stick your snout where ever you want but there are a lot of people in the private sector who will do a Public sector union on this and kick and scream if more money is taken out of our pockets..as can be seen with the water charges the appetite for more taxes is at an all time low..

So once again I ask where is Mr Howlin getting this money from

not yet

fliball123 wrote: »

We pay more than enough to have a first class public service which we do not have..so stick your snout where ever you want but there are a lot of people in the private sector who will do a Public sector union on this and kick and scream if more money is taken out of our pockets..as can be seen with the water charges the appetite for more taxes is at an all time low..

So once again I ask where is Mr Howlin getting this money from

Don't care...

As long as I get my ''pay rise'' I couldn't give a flying fcuk.

So in closing..

I don't pay towards my pension:

I'm grossly overpaid:

I cannot be sacked:

I'm due a pay rise very soon:

I couldn't hack in the private sector:

The government have to borrow 8 billion just to pay my salary:

I've a glit edged pension:

And my personal favourite..........I have 32 days leave a year..


BOOM......

fliball123

not yet wrote: »

Don't care...

As long as I get my ''pay rise'' I couldn't give a flying fcuk.

So in closing..

I don't pay towards my pension:

I'm grossly overpaid:

I cannot be sacked:

I'm due a pay rise very soon:

I couldn't hack in the private sector:

The government have to borrow 8 billion just to pay my salary:

I've a glit edged pension:

And my personal favourite..........I have 32 days leave a year..


BOOM......

So just stick your head in the sand ... the kicking and screaming approach will no longer work I am afraid too many people now know that increases in one sector like PS pay or welfare means a cut to other sectors..and while we are borrowing that dog wont hunt so your not due a payrise anytime soon

not yet

fliball123 wrote: »

So just stick your head in the sand ... the kicking and screaming approach will no longer work I am afraid too many people now know that increases in one sector like PS pay or welfare means a cut to other sectors..and while we are borrowing that dog wont hunt so your not due a payrise anytime soon

How so...?

Seems to me the government are bringing PS income back into line with 2008 levels, and I for one say, happy fcuking days. Now where's that trough again..

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

So just stick your head in the sand ... the kicking and screaming approach will no longer work I am afraid too many people now know that increases in one sector like PS pay or welfare means a cut to other sectors..and while we are borrowing that dog wont hunt so your not due a payrise anytime soon

sorry about you, but the law says differently, there will be pay rises in the public sector sooner than you think.

Geuze

world_weary wrote: »

the state pension in ireland is higher than anywhere else in europe

Are you sure about that?

ezra_pound

fliball123 wrote: »

We pay more than enough to have a first class public service which we do not have..so stick your snout where ever you want but there are a lot of people in the private sector who will do a Public sector union on this and kick and scream if more money is taken out of our pockets..as can be seen with the water charges the appetite for more taxes is at an all time low..

So once again I ask where is Mr Howlin getting this money from

One hundred thousand People kicking and screaming or playing with voodoo dolls or ranting on the internet have no bearing on the legal standing of the pay cuts.

fliball123

not yet wrote: »

How so...?

Seems to me the government are bringing PS income back into line with 2008 levels, and I for one say, happy fcuking days. Now where's that trough again..

Kenny said it wont be this year..and sure we are then in election mode I cannot see it happening

not yet

Geuze wrote: »

Are you sure about that?

He doesn't have to be, it's like the gold plated pension in the ps, say it enough times and it's true.

jcon1913

Godge wrote: »

You quoted an opinion article as a fact. No opinion is fact.

I just pointed out that the opinion writer was biased.

Well if you don't mind I'll ignore your comments from here on in as clearly you are not prepared to discuss the issues. You have a smart answer for everything but always move the discussion on to another point rather than deal with what you are asked.

Over and out.

fliball123

ezra_pound wrote: »

One hundred thousand People kicking and screaming or playing with voodoo dolls or ranting on the internet have no bearing on the legal standing of the pay cuts.

really well lets see how it plays out when the government try and explain why we should be grateful to pay more in property tax or water charges or income tax to give the 300k ps a pay rise.....The water charges prove one thing to the government taxation increases are no longer going to be tolerated in any shape or form

not yet

fliball123 wrote: »

Kenny said it wont be this year..and sure we are then in election mode I cannot see it happening

He'd better get the finger out so, I've me eye on a lovely apartment in Budapest...

not yet

fliball123 wrote: »

really well lets see how it plays out when the government try and explain why we should be grateful to pay more in property tax or water charges or income tax to give the 300k 265k ps a pay rise.....The water charges prove one thing to the government taxation increases are no longer going to be tolerated in any shape or form

Fixed that for ya..

jcon1913

Slieve wrote: »

The vast majority of Gardai are on noting near €70,000 per year

The average pay when dividing salary by numbers employed is €70,000 a year. I don't think anybody begrudges someone trying to buy their first home / get married / start a family a wage. But for every guard on €40,000 there must be one on €100,000 for this average to work out?