Unification?

Karl Stein

Godge wrote: »

Younger people in the South have no interest in Northern Ireland and less interest in a united Ireland.

There's that ridiculous two-piece jigsaw conceptualizing of Ireland that rears it's ugly little head every so often.

Does this lack of interest in the north start precisely at the border?
(that's rhetorical question, don't bother answering.)

Do the people, including young people, who vote SF all over the south have no interest in the north?
(that's rhetorical question, don't bother answering.)

Do all the the towns and villages and urban areas of cities which have a reputation for being strongly pro-nationalist have no interest in the north?
(that's rhetorical question, don't bother answering.)

DeJa VooDoo

katydid wrote: »

I know that bigotry and sectarianism is rife in the North.

The most bigotry I've seen on boards.ie comes from the likes of yourself and your fellow travellers on these threads.

katydid

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

The most bigotry I've seen on boards.ie comes from the likes of yourself and your fellow travellers on these threads.

Can you give me an example of said bigotry, please?

Oh, and you might like to respond to my points as you're at it?

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

How do YOU know I'm in a minority?

I know that bigotry and sectarianism is rife in the North. Maybe not as much as in the past, but still more than in a normal society. I know from friends on both sides of the divide, who live in the Republic, that they can't mix with people from other Christian denominations with the same ease as they can here. A friend of mine, who is from the North and Church of Ireland, speaks of the appalling way his relatives speak of Roman Catholics, and I know of someone who was RC and became a member of the CofI who was rejected by his family and friends and told he was a traitor. We do not have that sort of crap here.

It's only a wet week since I had to get a special dispensation from my bishop to allow my wife's CoI relative to stand on an RC altar. There is as much inter faith bigotry here as there is in NI. You are as usual spouting from an ignorant (and you seem to comfortable in your ignorance) point of view. It is a bigotry all it's own.
Religiosity is fading on the island as a whole and would have no part to play in the setting up of a truly secular new republic anyway.

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's only a wet week since I had to get a special dispensation from my bishop to allow my wife's CoI relative to stand on an RC altar. There is as much inter faith bigotry here as there is in NI. You are as usual spouting from an ignorant (and you seem to comfortable in your ignorance) point of view. It is a bigotry all it's own.
Religiosity is fading on the island as a whole and would have no part to play in the setting up of a truly secular new republic anyway.

That is absolutely untrue. Protocols regarding church services are just that - administrative protocols. They have little to do with the reality on the ground, where people don't care one way or the other what religion people choose to follow, because it has no connection with their political affiliations or their tribes.

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

That is absolutely untrue. Protocols regarding church services are just that - administrative protocols. They have little to do with the reality on the ground, where people don't care one way or the other what religion people choose to follow, because it has no connection with their political affiliations or their tribes.

And most ordinary people in NI don't care either, it is a very much confined thing. But keep up with the lazy and ignorant and bigoted generalisations that matter less and less and won't matter in a secular society.

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

And most ordinary people in NI don't care either, it is a very much confined thing. But keep up with the lazy and ignorant and bigoted generalisations that matter less and less and won't matter in a secular society.

Most people in NI may not care either but very many do. I have two examples in my own circle of friends, and they are hardly the only two in the entire state of NI.

Anyone who can claim that NI, a statelet that can't even maintain a normal democracy, is not a sick society, is deluded.

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

Most people in NI may not care either but very many do. I have two examples in my own circle of friends, and they are hardly the only two in the entire state of NI.

Anyone who can claim that NI, a statelet that can't even maintain a normal democracy, is not a sick society, is deluded.

It's politically sick, because of partition. We need to solve that before it can be healed.
And unselfishly there are plenty of southern Irish who will want to do that.

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's politically sick, because of partition. We need to solve that before it can be healed.
And unselfishly there are plenty of southern Irish who will want to do that.

Partition was certainly a major factor in the dysfunctional society, but it exists and we can't change it now. The Republic of Ireland is what it is, and it has taken its own path. As has NI. Each has its own identity, and that's what we haveve to work with.

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

Partition was certainly a major factor in the dysfunctional society, but it exists and we can't change it now. The Republic of Ireland is what it is, and it has taken its own path. As has NI. Each has its own identity, and that's what we haveve to work with.

Nonsense. Partition is the root cause. How long has civil war politics blighted political progress in the south?
It is staring you in the face Jack.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

You are placing yourself in a minority if that is the case. The need to entirely change how we do things is growing at a very fast rate. You really do need to take your head out of the sand. Bigotry and sectarianism is not 'rife' in NI, which you would know if you knew anything real about it. It is a very confined and disappearing thing.

Hard to judge whether it is "rife" or not, depends on your definition.

It can definitely be said that bigotry is more prevalent and embedded in Northern Ireland than in the South and that is puts a lot of people in the South off the idea of a united Ireland.

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

Nonsense. Partition is the root cause. How long has civil war politics blighted political progress in the south?
It is staring you in the face Jack.

There was more bigotry and sectarianism in the part of the island that is now NI ever before partition, because of the dominance of the unionist tradition. Partition only exacerbated it and allowed it to grow.

In any case, it's irrelevant. The bottom line is that there are two jurisdictions on this island, with their own identities and characteristics. They are almost a hundred years old, and you can't wave a magic wand and make them into one. It's too late. We have to work with what we have - cooperate when and where it suits, but retaining our separate identities.

Karl Stein

katydid wrote: »

The bottom line is that there are two jurisdictions on this island, with their own identities and characteristics.

Rubbish - that's just another example of the laughable two-piece jigsaw view of this island.

katydid

Karl Stein wrote: »

Rubbish - that's just another example of the laughable two-piece jigsaw view of this island.

No, it's not rubbish. The society in NI is very different from the one here. Different education system, different welfare system, different mentality. Different understanding of democracy.

Karl Stein

katydid wrote: »

The society in NI is very different from the one here.

Only in the minds of people such as yourself Katy.

Different education system, different welfare system,

Which in no way qualifies people on either side of the border as 'very different'.

different mentality

What do you mean by 'different mentality'.

Godge

Karl Stein wrote: »

Only in the minds of people such as yourself Katy.



Which in no way qualifies people on either side of the border as 'very different'.



What do you mean by 'different mentality'.

Do you not realise that the polarised nature of this debate proves her point?

The irony of it probably passes way over your head.

Karl Stein

Godge wrote: »

Do you not realise that the polarised nature of this debate proves her point?

She doesn't have cogent point to be proved in the first place. I find it amusing that you'd ignore the responses I gave to your posts in favour of coming to the aid of Katy's non-points.

The irony of it probably passes way over your head.

You might want to brush up on your understanding of irony.

katydid

Karl Stein wrote: »

Only in the minds of people such as yourself Katy.



Which in no way qualifies people on either side of the border as 'very different'.



What do you mean by 'different mentality'.

I didn't say the people are different. I said the SOCIETY is very different. It would help if you would actually read what I write...

You really want to know what is the different mentality between people who believe in unity with Britain and in a monarchy, and people who live in the Republic of Ireland. And people who think religion is a mark of tribal identity?

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

I didn't say the people are different. I said the SOCIETY is very different. It would help if you would actually read what I write...

You really want to know what is the different mentality between people who believe in unity with Britain and in a monarchy, and people who live in the Republic of Ireland. And people who think religion is a mark of tribal identity?

No more different socieities than Donegal and Dublin are different. You are clutching at this stage.

Karl Stein

katydid wrote: »

You really want to know what is the different mentality between people who believe in unity with Britain and in a monarchy, and people who live in the Republic of Ireland.

Do you really think the entire population of the north believe in unity with Britain and celebrate the monarchy?

Really?

katydid

Karl Stein wrote: »

Do you really think the entire population of the north believe in unity with Britain and celebrate the monarchy?

Really?

No...did I say that?

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

No more different socieities than Donegal and Dublin are different. You are clutching at this stage.

Donegal and Dublin don't have a different educational system, a different currency, a different political system, a different approach to the relationship between religion and politics. Dublin or Donegal don't have a majority of citizens giving loyalty to a British monarch, they are equal citizens of the same Republic.

YOU are pretty desperate if you can't see the difference.

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

Donegal and Dublin don't have a different educational system, a different currency, a different political system, a different approach to the relationship between religion and politics. Dublin or Donegal don't have a majority of citizens giving loyalty to a British monarch, they are equal citizens of the same Republic.

YOU are pretty desperate if you can't see the difference.

And you are still clinging to the nonsense that unity means that the people of NI will have to buckle down to our systems.
Please stop being willfully obtuse on that matter. All of what you mention needs overhaul and change in the Republic...our education system, our political system, and our economic system. You can believe in whatever funny guy or gal in the sky you want, that won't matter (not that it ever did)

Karl Stein

katydid wrote: »

No...did I say that?

It certainly appears that way, yes.

katydid wrote: »

[ROI NI] Each has its own identity

katydid wrote: »

The bottom line is that there are two jurisdictions on this island, with their own identities and characteristics ... our separate identities.

katydid wrote: »

The society in NI is very different from the one here ... different mentality.

What is it you're trying to say because it's really not clear? It appears you have a really ludicrous 'us and them' view based on a political border. 'Everyone on this side of the border has these characteristics and everyone on that side has the other'.

katydid

Karl Stein wrote: »

It certainly appears that way, yes.







What is it you're trying to say because it's really not clear?

It's perfectly clear. NI has a different mentality. It doesn't mean that every single person in the place has to share the same opinion. The MAJORITY hold a certain viewpoint, and that creates the mindset.

Happyman42

Karl Stein wrote: »

It certainly appears that way, yes.







What is it you're trying to say because it's really not clear? It appears you have a really ludicrous 'us and them' view based on a political border. 'Everyone on this side of the border has these characteristics and everyone on that side has the other'.

What katydid means is 'Themuns'. :rolleyes:

Karl Stein

katydid wrote: »

It's perfectly clear.

Clear like mud.

NI has a different mentality.

You say the above and then you immediately contradict yourself by saying the below.

It doesn't mean that every single person in the place has to share the same opinion. The MAJORITY hold a certain viewpoint, and that creates the mindset.

You think that because a majority of people would identify currently as 'unionist/British' (politically) then that decides the entirety of the mentality of a jurisdiction?

Okay, that makes about as much sense as a wireless cable.

Godge

Karl Stein wrote: »

She doesn't have cogent point to be proved in the first place. I find it amusing that you'd ignore the responses I gave to your posts in favour of coming to the aid of Katy's non-points.



You might want to brush up on your understanding of irony.

Very funny, thanks for the laugh.

Karl Stein wrote: »

There's that ridiculous two-piece jigsaw conceptualizing of Ireland that rears it's ugly little head every so often.

Does this lack of interest in the north start precisely at the border?
(that's rhetorical question, don't bother answering.)

Do the people, including young people, who vote SF all over the south have no interest in the north?
(that's rhetorical question, don't bother answering.)

Do all the the towns and villages and urban areas of cities which have a reputation for being strongly pro-nationalist have no interest in the north?
(that's rhetorical question, don't bother answering.)

You tell me not to bother answering, and then when I don't, you criticise that too.

There are no rules on here that tell me what posts I have to answer, what arguments I have to give credibility to and which posters deserve a response.

I am increasingly finding that a lot of the debates on Northern Ireland on these boards are rooted in the past, in the rhetoric used (partitionist, bigotry, etc.) and fail to understand the modern South.

SF supporters mistakenly see the rise in support for SF as a rise in support for a united Ireland when it is the opposite that is the case. People have no more interest in Northern Ireland than they ever had, it just doesn't matter. What is happening is that they are forgetting SF links to terrorism, violence, intimidation and lawlessness. That makes SF more acceptable on the surface.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

Very funny, thanks for the laugh.



You tell me not to bother answering, and then when I don't, you criticise that too.

There are no rules on here that tell me what posts I have to answer, what arguments I have to give credibility to and which posters deserve a response.

I am increasingly finding that a lot of the debates on Northern Ireland on these boards are rooted in the past, in the rhetoric used (partitionist, bigotry, etc.) and fail to understand the modern South.

SF supporters mistakenly see the rise in support for SF as a rise in support for a united Ireland when it is the opposite that is the case. People have no more interest in Northern Ireland than they ever had, it just doesn't matter. What is happening is that they are forgetting SF links to terrorism, violence, intimidation and lawlessness. That makes SF more acceptable on the surface.

Talking about laughs.....:D

Karl Stein

Happyman42 wrote: »

What katydid means is 'Themuns'. :rolleyes:

I get the feeling that a hardcore of people see the north and south in these terms.

Godge

Karl Stein wrote: »

I get the feeling that a hardcore of people see the north and south in these terms.

And what is wrong with that?

The Good Friday Agreement identified that map as the default arrangement and I see no mood for changing it either North or South of the border despite all the wishful thinking.

Karl Stein

Godge wrote: »

Very funny, thanks for the laugh.

You're welcome, Sir.

You tell me not to bother answering, and then when I don't, you criticise that too.

That was only one post and they were rhetorical questions employed to highlight the inaccuracy and reductiveness of the points you made so it was probably prudent of you not to.

There are no rules on here that tell me what posts I have to answer,

That's correct.

what arguments I have to give credibility to

Good for you that you've decided it is you who bestows credibility by the gracious act of responding.

and which posters deserve a response.

I'm flattered that you include me in your pantheon of righteous posters.

I am increasingly finding that a lot of the debates on Northern Ireland on these boards are rooted in the past, in the rhetoric used (partitionist, bigotry, etc.) and fail to understand the modern South.

I think you might mean people who don't concur with your views.

SF supporters mistakenly see the rise in support for SF as a rise in support for a united Ireland when it is the opposite that is the case.

So you're saying the rise in support for SF correlates with a fall in support for a UI? Seriously?

What is happening is that they are forgetting SF links to terrorism, violence, intimidation and lawlessness. That makes SF more acceptable on the surface.

I'd say they're getting a better understanding of what caused the conflict in the post Section 31 media and internet age.

Karl Stein

Godge wrote: »

And what is wrong with that?

It's utterly ridiculous.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

I'm outa here. Enjoy.

Godge

Karl Stein wrote: »

It's utterly ridiculous.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

I'm out here. Enjoy.

Will do. See you:)

katydid

Karl Stein wrote: »

I get the feeling that a hardcore of people see the north and south in these terms.

Er, that's the way it is. What other way is there to see it? Britian controls NI with the consent of the majority. That's called REALITY. Something you seem to have a problem with.

katydid

Karl Stein wrote: »

Clear like mud.



You say the above and then you immediately contradict yourself by saying the below.



You think that because a majority of people would identify currently as 'unionist/British' (politically) then that decides the entirety of the mentality of a jurisdiction?

Okay, that makes about as much sense as a wireless cable.

I didn't contradict myself. A mindset/mentality doesn't mean everyone in the country has to share it.

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

Er, that's the way it is. What other way is there to see it? Britian controls NI with the consent of the majority. That's called REALITY. Something you seem to have a problem with.

That is not the way 'society' in NI breaks down. The clutching at straws you indulge in is hilarious and then you pretend to get huffy about 'adult' debates.

maccored

katydid wrote: »

You think it's weird that a relatively normal society, albeit with the normal problems of any modern society, would be reluctant to take responsibility for almost two million people from a society where bigotry and sectarian hatred are rife, and where up to half of those people had no wish to be part of the new arrangement?
Seriously?

Don't you think we've enough on our plate without adding all that to the mix?

I don't want my state to be rebuilt. It has its faults, but it's fine the way it is. If others want to join us, they can do it on our terms.

Rebuilding *your* state from the bottom up and reincorporating the north is what a united ireland is all about. If you dont understand that, then dont try and debate the subject

katydid wrote: »

I have two examples in my own circle of friends, and they are hardly the only two in the entire state of NI.

wow - you know two people from the north and you are an expert on the place. Amazing.

Happyman42

maccored wrote: »

Rebuilding *your* state from the bottom up and reincorporating the north is what a united ireland is all about. If you dont understand that, then dont try and debate the subject



wow - you know two people from the north and you are an expert on the place. Amazing.

The first part of unification will be a fairly intensive education process!

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

The first part of unification will be a fairly intensive education process!

Didn't Mao try that already? Thought it failed.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

Didn't Mao try that already? Thought it failed.

He hasn't gone away you know.

I reckon we will have new generations who will have an understanding of what happened on this island and why the conflict from the late 60's happened, after all the centenaries in the next 10 yrs. The reaction to the attempted airbrushing of 1916 by our current raft of cowards in government is very heartening indeed, they won't get away with that any more.
I have great hope that my children will have the benefit of educated hindsight when they approach the subject. It will be they who finally unify this island, of that I have no doubts whatsoever.

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

He hasn't gone away you know.

I reckon we will have new generations who will have an understanding of what happened on this island and why the conflict from the late 60's happened, after all the centenaries in the next 10 yrs. The reaction to the attempted airbrushing of 1916 by our current raft of cowards in government is very heartening indeed, they won't get away with that any more.
I have great hope that my children will have the benefit of educated hindsight when they approach the subject. It will be they who finally unify this island, of that I have no doubts whatsoever.

And how will an understanding of what happened on this island change the status quo? Will it magically "disappear" a million people? Will it get rid of bigotry and sectarianism?

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

And how will an understanding of what happened on this island change the status quo? Will it magically "disappear" a million people? Will it get rid of bigotry and sectarianism?

What do you propose to 'get rid' of it? Are you just gonna roll over in your comfy bed and ignore it until it festers and destroys life on this island again or do you want to do something to sort it out for once and for all?
I understand you are in some insulated bubble somewhere where it doesn't affect you but the conflict affected a great many people in the south, whether you are in selfish denial or not.
That point will not be lost no matter how much you cry 'no no no'.

maccored

Happyman42 wrote: »

The first part of unification will be a fairly intensive education process!

'Education' is the key word alright. Theres a lack of it in regards the idea of an all ireland state.

katydid

maccored wrote: »

'Education' is the key word alright. Theres a lack of it in regards the idea of an all ireland state.

How would education change the way things are in each state?

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

What do you propose to 'get rid' of it? Are you just gonna roll over in your comfy bed and ignore it until it festers and destroys life on this island again or do you want to do something to sort it out for once and for all?
I understand you are in some insulated bubble somewhere where it doesn't affect you but the conflict affected a great many people in the south, whether you are in selfish denial or not.
That point will not be lost no matter how much you cry 'no no no'.

It's nothing to do with me. It's their problem, they have to deal with it. The conflict may have affected people in this state in the past. This is not the past.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

He hasn't gone away you know.

I reckon we will have new generations who will have an understanding of what happened on this island and why the conflict from the late 60's happened, after all the centenaries in the next 10 yrs. The reaction to the attempted airbrushing of 1916 by our current raft of cowards in government is very heartening indeed, they won't get away with that any more.
I have great hope that my children will have the benefit of educated hindsight when they approach the subject. It will be they who finally unify this island, of that I have no doubts whatsoever.

1916 and the 1960s are all ancient history to the kids of today.

Young boys following soccer have grown up knowing there are different teams for Ireland and Northern Ireland and consider this normal regardless of their knowledge of history.

In time, as the old dinosaurs move off to retirement from SF, we will see a gradual downplaying of the united Ireland rhetoric and using their populist approach will gain some solid support and end up like the FF of the 1940s to 1960s, strong words on the aspiration to a united Ireland but nothing more than words.

maccored

katydid wrote: »

How would education change the way things are in each state?

education about what a united ireland is would help yourself, for example. education that the north isnt a different planet would also help. Stop asking me questions katydid - you havent answered any of the ones Ive already asked you. go look for them (before you ask another question based on what questions Ive already asked you)

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

1916 and the 1960s are all ancient history to the kids of today.

Young boys following soccer have grown up knowing there are different teams for Ireland and Northern Ireland and consider this normal regardless of their knowledge of history.

In time, as the old dinosaurs move off to retirement from SF, we will see a gradual downplaying of the united Ireland rhetoric and using their populist approach will gain some solid support and end up like the FF of the 1940s to 1960s, strong words on the aspiration to a united Ireland but nothing more than words.

The same nonsense was being talked in the 50's too. It will all go away.
The fact is, it won't. The British being here(always the root of the 'problem/conflict) will always cause cyclical problems. There is only one solution that will actually work for now and for all time.
And your supposition about the concerns of the youth of Ireland is based on wishful thinking.

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

It's nothing to do with me.

How many southerners caught up in the conflict have said that I wonder? It has everything to do with us.