Unification?

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

The same nonsense was being talked in the 50's too. It will all go away.
The fact is, it won't. The British being here(always the root of the 'problem/conflict) will always cause cyclical problems. There is only one solution that will actually work for now and for all time.
And your supposition about the concerns of the youth of Ireland is based on wishful thinking.

The Ireland of 2014 is not the Ireland of 1950.

We will not make the same mistakes and spiral down into conflict. The current peace will be maintained.

The Corinthian

Yes to unification; cheap holiday homes for all Irish expats as the united Irish economy implodes.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

The Ireland of 2014 is not the Ireland of 1950.

Why are saying the same things as they said then? And potentially (if you got your way) making the same tragic mistakes?

eire4

Godge wrote: »

The Ireland of 2014 is not the Ireland of 1950.

We will not make the same mistakes and spiral down into conflict. The current peace will be maintained.

There is absolutely no question that the Ireland of I assume you meant 2015:) is very different from the Ireland of 1950 and not just with the passage of time. It is fair to say Ireland has been transformed in many ways both economically and socially during the period in between. Some changes have been very much for the positive and sadly some very much for the negative.




As to whether we will make the same mistakes that could spiral out of control I hope your right and your wrong. I hope your right and that the current cracks and problems in the peace process do not lead to violence. I also hope your woring in the litteral sense that the current peace is at best a stepping stone. Many serious issues must be dealth with for an enduring and deeply embeded peace to take hold so I hope your wrong in the sense that we can move on past the current and onto a much better situation where we all live on an island that respects different outlooks on life but recognizes that we all share the same island and work to make it a prosperous and positive place for us all to live.

maccored

Godge wrote: »

The current peace will be maintained.

as in there won't be any peace? considering people are still getting killed.

The Corinthian

Happyman42 wrote: »

How many southerners caught up in the conflict have said that I wonder? It has everything to do with us.

How many southerners are caught up in the conflict? I get the impression that unless you live on the border, have close relatives in the North, were unfortunate enough to get caught in the crossfire of one of the Provos 'fundraising' activities in a southern bank or post office or actively seek to get involved, your chances even during the troubles would have been pretty slim. Can't imagine it's that many.

Anyhow, why this thread? Wasn't there an identical one on this subject not long ago? Wait... found it. I think the topic was answered there within the first few pages, the economic sacrifice necessary is too great at present to overcome and the only people who are actively seeking unification (as opposed to long-finger platitudes) are the same ones who will argue over some daft principle or other and lose focus of what they're actually trying to achieve - a bit like the thread in question.

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

How many southerners caught up in the conflict have said that I wonder? It has everything to do with us.

I was born and reared in Cork. The only way the Troubles affected me was when someone phoned in a bomb warning to my school when I was in second year. It was probably some local lad having a laugh.

Unless you live near the border, or the IRA have targeted someone you knew, it has had very little effect. And it's in the PAST. The problems they have now are their problems. We have our own, but we don't have bigotry and sectarianism on the scale they have it their.

Happyman42

katydid wrote: »

I was born and reared in Cork. The only way the Troubles affected me was when someone phoned in a bomb warning to my school when I was in second year. It was probably some local lad having a laugh.

Unless you live near the border, or the IRA have targeted someone you knew, it has had very little effect. And it's in the PAST. The problems they have now are their problems. We have our own, but we don't have bigotry and sectarianism on the scale they have it their.

Fairly typical and sad response that displays nothing only southern selfishness that contributes fairly significantly to the ongoing nature of the problem. In short - a rampant partitionist mentality.

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

How many southerners are caught up in the conflict? I get the impression that unless you live on the border, have close relatives in the North, were unfortunate enough to get caught in the crossfire of one of the Provos 'fundraising' activities in a southern bank or post office or actively seek to get involved, your chances even during the troubles would have been pretty slim. Can't imagine it's that many.

Anyhow, why this thread? Wasn't there an identical one on this subject not long ago? Wait... found it. I think the topic was answered there within the first few pages, the economic sacrifice necessary is too great at present to overcome and the only people who are actively seeking unification (as opposed to long-finger platitudes) are the same ones who will argue over some daft principle or other and lose focus of what they're actually trying to achieve - a bit like the thread in question.

In fairness and to repeat what has been said before - you have a choice here, if the thread doesn't interest or engage you, don't click. You control the mouse, not the other way around.

The Corinthian

Happyman42 wrote: »

In fairness and to repeat what has been said before - you have a choice here, if the thread doesn't interest or engage you, don't click. You control the mouse, not the other way around.

Who said it doesn't interest me?

The romantic in me is actually fairly positively predisposed to unification. But as with many nationalist causes in Ireland (Irish language being another) I'm both amused and driven to despair by the fact that most of the proponents of such causes are complete morons. And I mean should not be allowed to breed morons.

So look at unification; Irish/British governments both spout aspirational platitudes about unification/union, but passed the buck to the people of NI and are happy enough with the status quo. The northern unionists have exactly what they want - autonomy while in the union - and thus are very happy with the status quo. Northern (and southern) nationalists? No real plan and spend more time fighting over flags, marches and stupid OT definitions that eventually get threads like this locked. Meanwhile the real obstacles against unification go untouched.

So threads like this are a bit like passing by a car crash - you really shouldn't be interested, but you just can't help but slow down and look when you pass by.

K-9

katydid wrote: »

How would education change the way things are in each state?

Removing religious run schools would make a huge difference. Multi-denominational schools are getting more and more popular but it's a slow process.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have no intention of ever trying to persuade anybody with Godge's mindset into a civilised republic. The bigots are a vocal but defeated and disappearing minority now.

And there we have, your true attitude. You have no interest in rational debate, your only interest is 'sticking it to the unionists' I Dont bother posting these days because I really don't see the point, its not like there is much interest in genuinely exploring the unionist point of view. Its more about the arm chair republicans sticking it to 'da brits'

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm both amused and driven to despair by the fact that most of the proponents of such causes are complete morons. And I mean should not be allowed to breed morons.

Just what the thread needs - eugenics. Well done.

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

And there we have, your true attitude. You have no interest in rational debate, your only interest is 'sticking it to the unionists' I Dont bother posting these days because I really don't see the point, its not like there is much interest in genuinely exploring the unionist point of view. Its more about the arm chair republicans sticking it to 'da brits'

Absolutely wrong, I have no interest in talking or negotiating with bigots and I know they won't be at the table anyway. Irish history shows us that.
I don't know what more than 'everything is up for negotiation and concession' you want me to say ahead of the inevitable debate and discussion about unity.

The Corinthian

Happyman42 wrote: »

Just what the thread needs - eugenics. Well done.

Awe, diddums. Have we been listening to dogma so long that we need to take everything said literally?

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

Awe, diddums. Have we been listening to dogma so long that we need to take everything said literally?

Aw diddums yourself, it wasn't me who had the 'need' to say it.

katydid

K-9 wrote: »

Removing religious run schools would make a huge difference. Multi-denominational schools are getting more and more popular but it's a slow process.

That would influence the way people of different religions saw each other. How would it affect the political views of people?

katydid

Happyman42 wrote: »

Fairly typical and sad response that displays nothing only southern selfishness that contributes fairly significantly to the ongoing nature of the problem. In short - a rampant partitionist mentality.

Sure. And the mentality of far more people than you realise. What other kind of mentality to you expect people to have who have no particular reason to think otherwise? NI is a long way away for most of us, and I don't just mean geographically.

The Corinthian

Happyman42 wrote: »

Aw diddums yourself, it wasn't me who had the 'need' to say it.

And your need to express your views is far more important no doubt? And this is why I really can't see unification happening in a hurry.

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

And your need to express your views is far more important no doubt? And this is why I really can't see unification happening in a hurry.

I am contributing to the debate, in a reasonable manner, you felt the need to drag it into abusive territory.

The Corinthian

Happyman42 wrote: »

I am contributing to the debate, in a reasonable manner, you felt the need to drag it into abusive territory.

Now you're being ridiculous. Pointing out that the very people who are most invested in unification are failing miserably to deal with the obstacles to its achievement (due to being overly concerned with distracting 'issues of principle'), is an extremely relevant contribution and ironically if you consider such a criticism to be abusive is only serves to underline the point in question.

Or is the plan SF getting into government and then seeking to push through a referendum on the subject quickly before anyone asks any awkward questions?

maccored

The Corinthian wrote: »

Now you're being ridiculous. Pointing out that the very people who are most invested in unification are failing miserably to deal with the obstacles to its achievement (due to being overly concerned with distracting 'issues of principle'), is an extremely relevant contribution and ironically if you consider such a criticism to be abusive is only serves to underline the point in question.

Or is the plan SF getting into government and then seeking to push through a referendum on the subject quickly before anyone asks any awkward questions?

What obstacles have been pointed out? A UI will have to be a very long drawn out process over a few generations to work. this claptrap about the republic not being able to afford the north completely ignores that simple fact.

RED L4 0TH

The Corinthian wrote: »

Northern (and southern) nationalists? No real plan and spend more time fighting over flags, marches

Unionist extremists are the prime agitators on these issues.

The Corinthian

maccored wrote: »

What obstacles have been pointed out? A UI will have to be a very long drawn out process over a few generations to work. this claptrap about the republic not being able to afford the north completely ignores that simple fact.

That it will be a drawn out process that will likely take a few generations to work goes without saying. But that claptrap about the republic not being to afford it, or the chasm in how the economies are structured, or social services paid for, or tax harmonization - all before we get to administration - is what will cause it to fail before even one generation has elapsed as things stand.

If you think that jumping in and after 'a long hard slog' it'll somehow all work out is the answer (the aforementioned SF getting into government and then seeking to push through a referendum on the subject quickly before anyone asks any awkward questions), then you're due for a serious disappointment.

RED L4 0TH wrote: »

Unionist extremists are the prime agitators on these issues.

Great, lets argue about that until another thread gets shut down.

RED L4 0TH

The Corinthian wrote: »

Great, lets argue about that until another thread gets shut down.

Why would it be shut down? It's you who made the original remark that nationalists 'spend more time fighting over flags' etc, knowing full well that SF & SDLP representatives participate fully in the NI institutions. It's ill informed rubbish like this that tends to get these threads eventually closed.

The Corinthian

RED L4 0TH wrote: »

Why would it be shut down?

Because it leads to another moronic and endless "they started it" discussion that has little or nothing to do with unification.

It's you who made the original remark that nationalists 'spend more time fighting over flags' etc, knowing full well that SF & SDLP representatives participate fully in the NI institutions. It's ill informed rubbish like this that tends to get these threads eventually closed.

Really. So, what is SFs economic plan for unification?

maccored

The Corinthian wrote: »

That it will be a drawn out process that will likely take a few generations to work goes without saying. But that claptrap about the republic not being to afford it, or the chasm in how the economies are structured, or social services paid for, or tax harmonization - all before we get to administration - is what will cause it to fail before even one generation has elapsed as things stand.

If you think that jumping in and after 'a long hard slog' it'll somehow all work out is the answer (the aforementioned SF getting into government and then seeking to push through a referendum on the subject quickly before anyone asks any awkward questions), then you're due for a serious disappointment.

I dont think that 'jumping in and after 'a long hard slog' it'll somehow all work out is the answer ' - part of the long hard slog - surely - would be working out the details ... otherwise what the hell would the process be doing to take so long in the first place. really, where are you going with that kind of talk?

maccored

The Corinthian wrote: »

Really. So, what is SFs economic plan for unification?

why would they have one already? how can you have an economic plan for a society that as yet doesnt exist? they've only got as far as 'Green Paper on Irish Unity, A Sinn Féin Discussion Paper'

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

Now you're being ridiculous. Pointing out that the very people who are most invested in unification are failing miserably to deal with the obstacles to its achievement (due to being overly concerned with distracting 'issues of principle'), is an extremely relevant contribution and ironically if you consider such a criticism to be abusive is only serves to underline the point in question.

Or is the plan SF getting into government and then seeking to push through a referendum on the subject quickly before anyone asks any awkward questions?

It is not that part of your contribution, I have a problem with. It is that part where you are abusive. I suggest you calm down and chip in where you feel it is appropriate, I assure you, yours is but one opinion, no matter what you think of it's merit. .

The Corinthian

maccored wrote: »

I dont think that 'jumping in and after 'a long hard slog' it'll somehow all work out is the answer ' - part of the long hard slog - surely - would be working out the details

And what progress or plans have been proposed to date? Even here, after two threads and, to date, 765 posts how the unionists are the 'real problem' is apparently more important than the blatantly obvious question of cost according to some geniuses.

... otherwise what the hell would the process be doing to take so long in the first place. really, where are you going with that kind of talk?

It's going to take so long because the two communities are not one happy homogeneous group. Even if there were no opposition to unification, you'd have to have your head so far up some romantic, nationalist fantasy if you didn't accept that there's been an inevitable drift as a result of partition. Germany still has to deal with this today, twenty years after reunification and having been divided for less than half the time.

Rebuilding that will take a long time, even after we've worked out how we'll do it, have the money to do so, solved all the other problems and unified.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I suggest you calm down and chip in where you feel it is appropriate, I assure you, yours is but one opinion, no matter what you think of it's merit. .

Actually, I'd suggest the same of you.

The Corinthian

maccored wrote: »

Why would they have one already? how can you have an economic plan for a society that as yet doesnt exist? they've only got as far as 'Green Paper on Irish Unity, A Sinn Féin Discussion Paper'

Because apparently Irish Unification is "realizable, realistic objective" according to Gerry Adams, so I would have thought that based on this, they've worked it all out.

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

how the unionists are the 'real problem' is apparently more important than the blatantly obvious question of cost according to some geniuses.

Perhaps you should ask Katydid that question as she/he seems to think that Unionist threats of aggression are the real problem.

The Corinthian

Happyman42 wrote: »

Perhaps you should ask Katydid that question as she/he seems to think that Unionist threats of aggression are the real problem.

So what? Who cares if someone who opposes or otherwise does not support unification believes that. The problem occurs when those who do support it and should be focusing of bringing about such unification are too busy with childish points of principles and end up bringing about nothing - unless, they're hoping to get into power and push some referendum through that they hope no one will question too closely.

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

So what? Who cares if someone who opposes or otherwise does not support unification believes that. The problem occurs when those who do support it and should be focusing of bringing about such unification are too busy with childish points of principles and end up bringing about nothing - unless, they're hoping to get into power and push some referendum through that they hope no one will question too closely.

Could you lay out what you see as the obstacles, sans the venting?

The Corinthian

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you lay out what you see as the obstacles, sans the venting?

No. Go read the other thread.

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

No. Go read the other thread.

So you are only here to vent. Use your mouse productively.

maccored

The Corinthian wrote: »

And what progress or plans have been proposed to date? Even here, after two threads and, to date, 765 posts how the unionists are the 'real problem' is apparently more important than the blatantly obvious question of cost according to some geniuses.

It's going to take so long because the two communities are not one happy homogeneous group. Even if there were no opposition to unification, you'd have to have your head so far up some romantic, nationalist fantasy if you didn't accept that there's been an inevitable drift as a result of partition. Germany still has to deal with this today, twenty years after reunification and having been divided for less than half the time.

Rebuilding that will take a long time, even after we've worked out how we'll do it, have the money to do so, solved all the other problems and unified.

Actually, I'd suggest the same of you.

You reply to my post by outlining the obvious issues that need to be addressed. yes indeed, there is a genius in this very thread.

The Corinthian

Happyman42 wrote: »

So you are only here to vent. Use your mouse productively.

And you're here to waffle, hence how you get upset when someone points that out. Go out and get some fresh air.

Happyman42

maccored wrote: »

You reply to my post by outlining the obvious issues that need to be addressed. yes indeed, there is a genius in this very thread.

Not to mention that they where all discussed and mentioned already. :rolleyes:

The Corinthian

maccored wrote: »

You reply to my post by outlining the obvious issues that need to be addressed. yes indeed, there is a genius in this very thread.

Clearly because I'm not a member of SF. How have they been addressing them?

Happyman42 wrote: »

Not to mention that they where all discussed and mentioned already. :rolleyes:

And?

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

And you're here to waffle, hence how you get upset when someone points that out. Go out and get some fresh air.

The only thing I am upset about is your descent into abuse and predilection for eugenics as a solution.

The Corinthian

Happyman42 wrote: »

The only thing I am upset about is your descent into abuse and predilection for eugenics as a solution.

Wow. That's an impressive, yet strangely disturbing, level of literalism.

TBH, I could murder a beer right now, but will have to underline that I have no intention of, in any way, harming any beer, whatsoever.

Happyman42

The Corinthian wrote: »

Wow. That's an impressive, yet strangely disturbing, level of literalism.

TBH, I could murder a beer right now, but will have to underline that I have no intention of, in any way, harming any beer, whatsoever.

The ability to 'disturb' is all yours my friend.

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have no intention of ever trying to persuade anybody with Godge's mindset into a civilised republic. The bigots are a vocal but defeated and disappearing minority now.

No doubt "civilised" in this case refers to some from of over bearing socialist government that doesn't have a chance in hell of being democratically elected.

It must annoy you greatly that the Irish republic abandoned northern nationalists to their fate like dirt on their shoe. (your view, not mine)

maccored

The Corinthian wrote: »

Clearly because I'm not a member of SF. How have they been addressing them?

and I am clearing missing your point. are you asking me how sinn fein, on their todd, are addressing the complex issues of a UI that will take generations to complete? You expect SF to give you all the answers right now? Isn't that a tad silly?

As I already mentioned, they have put forward a ''Green Paper on Irish Unity, A Sinn Féin Discussion Paper', though you believe that they should have 'worked it all out' by now. Thats genius thinking alright :rolleyes:

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No doubt "civilised" in this case refers to some from of over bearing socialist government that doesn't have a chance in hell of being democratically elected.

It must annoy you greatly that the Irish republic abandoned northern nationalists to their fate like dirt on their shoe. (your view, not mine)

I have no idea what the make up a government will be, again we have somebody who seems to believe that there will be an element of force used.
SF, like all the other party's will have to step aside and allow all the people of the island elect a government of their choice.

I think the Irish government abandoned northern nationalists through a mixture of fear, subservience and self interest.

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have no idea what the make up a government will be, again we have somebody who seems to believe that there will be an element of force used.
SF, like all the other party's will have to step aside and allow all the people of the island elect a government of their choice.

I think the Irish government abandoned northern nationalists through a mixture of fear, subservience and self interest.

And what if the perfidious Irish and Northern Irish people vote for the Blue shirts or worse DUP as is their habit of late?

No mo chara, to build a true 32 County Worker's Socialist Republic the rescission of democratic rights is necessitated.

It's not as if there isn't historical precedence for this.

Karl Stein

Interesting that the thread has now attracted a number of well known neurotically anti-republican/nationalist posters with a reputation for sneering and ignorance. It's a good thing these types weren't negotiating the end of the troubles, their ilk purposefully ignored, or we might still be living with it.

You know what guys? Ye're an ever decreasing insignificance of a bunch.

Only 8% of people in the south are against a UI (down from 16% at its height)

Have a great day.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

Fairly typical and sad response that displays nothing only southern selfishness that contributes fairly significantly to the ongoing nature of the problem. In short - a rampant partitionist mentality.

You see, this is where it becomes clear that the country is no way ready for unity.

In their desperate attempts to dig up concrete support for a united Ireland, the advocates don't engage in persuasion, they find another insult for those who disagree with them. Unionists are bigots, anyone down South who doesn't want unity has a partitionist mentality and those from their own community who aren't waving the flag are collaborators.

It really is despairing to see how so many, especially the ones on here, don't get this. Insult all around you and nobody will want to have anything to do with you. Gerry was at it before Christmas with his speech to the troops about using the equality agenda.

The Corinthian wrote: »

How many southerners are caught up in the conflict? I get the impression that unless you live on the border, have close relatives in the North, were unfortunate enough to get caught in the crossfire of one of the Provos 'fundraising' activities in a southern bank or post office or actively seek to get involved, your chances even during the troubles would have been pretty slim. Can't imagine it's that many.

Anyhow, why this thread? Wasn't there an identical one on this subject not long ago? Wait... found it. I think the topic was answered there within the first few pages, the economic sacrifice necessary is too great at present to overcome and the only people who are actively seeking unification (as opposed to long-finger platitudes) are the same ones who will argue over some daft principle or other and lose focus of what they're actually trying to achieve - a bit like the thread in question.

Excellent post, clearly demonstrating the apathy towards unity in the South.

Iwasfrozen

Karl Stein wrote: »

Interesting that the thread has now attracted a number of well known neurotically anti-republican/nationalist posters with a reputation for sneering and ignorance. It's a good thing these types weren't negotiating the end of the troubles, their ilk purposefully ignored, or we might still be living with it.

You know what guys? Ye're an ever decreasing insignificance of a bunch.

Only 8% of people in the south are against a UI (down from 16% at its height)

Have a great day.

I assume this post was directed at me even though you didn't have the grace to quote me directly, well guess what if it weren't for terrorist apologists such as yourself the troubles would never have lasted as long as they did.

Interesting that I'm being labelled ignorant by a person who thinks armed conflict was justified.