Outrageous Sexual Assuault

Timberrrrrrrr

UCDVet wrote: »

Please don't turn me into a strawman.

Saying that some people, sometimes, say no when they mean yes....does NOT MEAN ALL PEOPLE WHO SAY NO MEAN YES.

I'm not claiming that, because it's ridiculous. What I am claiming is that it's quite difficult to know what someone actually means.

Which no is the definitive no then? The first? The fifth? The tenth?

The One Doctor

6541 wrote: »

Its madness, he is on a work night out gets drunk and has a feel, he is then landed in court. Most red blooded males do this, admit it !

I never have, never would. It's sad, childish behaviour.

Triangla

Simple really.

Yes means yes.

No means no.

If unsure, always err on the side of caution.

UCDVet

auldgranny wrote: »

Try using that as a defence in a rape trial if you really believe it.

What's not to believe? Are you claiming that the people who have done (numerous) studies on the topic are all lying? Or are you claiming that all of the respondents lied because it would be funny?

The indisputable fact is that people say no when they mean yes, to sex, and other things.

The catch is, it doesn't matter in the case of rape or sexual assault. If a person says no and you don't stop, you've committed a crime.

I'm not claiming this is a defence against rape. I've not said anything remotely close to it. I'm certainly not advocating rape. What I *AM* saying is that a LOT OF PEOPLE SAY NO WHEN THEY MEAN YES.

I know this because, people said so, and researchers wrote down their answers and published the results. Clearly it happens, and it's not even a rare occurrence.

Gatling

Adessocucino wrote: »

You can tell from the tone of voice, body language, micro expressions, the look in the eye, the context. It is very common for women to give token resistance. A classic line would be, " we shouldn't be doing this as she outs her hand down your underwear.

Read to many mills and boone

hollster2

UCDVet wrote: »

What's not to believe? Are you claiming that the people who have done (numerous) studies on the topic are all lying? Or are you claiming that all of the respondents lied because it would be funny?

The indisputable fact is that people say no when they mean yes, to sex, and other things.

The catch is, it doesn't matter in the case of rape or sexual assault. If a person says no and you don't stop, you've committed a crime.

I'm not claiming this is a defence against rape. I've not said anything remotely close to it. I'm certainly not advocating rape. What I *AM* saying is that a LOT OF PEOPLE SAY NO WHEN THEY MEAN YES.

I know this because, people said so, and researchers wrote down their answers and published the results. Clearly it happens, and it's not even a rare occurrence.

Now your just taking the piss so if I go out and someone comes on to me and wont leave me alone and I say no I mean yes??? total and utter rubbish!

Timberrrrrrrr

Adessocucino wrote: »

You can tell from the tone of voice, body language, micro expressions, the look in the eye, the context. It is very common for women to give token resistance. A classic line would be, " we shouldn't be doing this as she outs her hand down your underwear.

Except drunk people don't see those signs, tools like the guy convicted just see ass, tits and potential sex.

Gatling

hollster2 wrote: »

Now your just taking the piss so if I go out and someone comes on to me and wont leave me alone and I say no I mean yes??? total and utter rubbish!

Unless you live in Russia apparently

DivingDuck

UCDVet wrote: »

I'm not claiming this is a defence against rape. I've not said anything remotely close to it. I'm certainly not advocating rape. What I *AM* saying is that a LOT OF PEOPLE SAY NO WHEN THEY MEAN YES.

I know this because, people said so, and researchers wrote down their answers and published the results. Clearly it happens, and it's not even a rare occurrence.

Nobody is debating the fact you've supplied. What's being said is that fact doesn't matter.

Certainly, the girl saying no to you might mean yes.

But since you can't be sure, you should err on the side of caution until you are.

UCDVet

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Which no is the definitive no then? The first? The fifth? The tenth?

Anywhere from the first to the last. There is no correct answer. There is no definitive way to know.

Generally speaking, common sense would work, most of the time. It's a risky game to play, especially with sex. Less so with talking to someone, but it's the same idea.

It's exactly the same as trying to convince one of your friends to stay and have another drink. If my friend says, 'Aww man, I really probably should get going soon....' I might say, 'Come'on! You can have another!'. But if my friend stands up from the table, puts on his coat and says, 'Sorry I can't stay longer, but I need to go' well, I can tell he's ready to go.

DamagedTrax

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Except drunk people don't see those signs, tools like the guy convicted just see ass, tits and potential sex.

i agree mostly ... but drink or no drink, it doesnt take a whole lot of cop on to know the difference between an 'oh no we shouldnt, oh go on then!' and a 'no, i dont want this'. (i dont drink btw)

if you cant tell the difference you probably shouldnt be around people.

UCDVet

LexieOnRale wrote: »

So why would you continue to maul a woman if she's told you to stop?

When did I ever say I would continue to maul a woman if she's told me to stop?

'Have ye stopped beating your wife yet?' <-- Same deal

One eyed Jack

UCDVet wrote: »

Please don't turn me into a strawman.

Saying that some people, sometimes, say no when they mean yes....does NOT MEAN ALL PEOPLE WHO SAY NO MEAN YES.

I'm not claiming that, because it's ridiculous. What I am claiming is that it's quite difficult to know what someone actually means.

The only poster introducing a ridiculous strawman is yourself. It's not difficult at all to know what someone means, unless you're trying to justify behaving like an utter scumbag. It's quite clear in the case in the OP that the woman had made it clear to the man he was making her feel uncomfortable. No amount of "ah go on, go on, go on!", after that, is justifiable. The woman in this case was well within her right to report the man who sexually assaulted her, and if only more people were to do the same, you'd find out very quickly that behaviours and attitudes like yours are simply unacceptable in civilised society.

UCDVet

DivingDuck wrote: »

Nobody is debating the fact you've supplied. What's being said is that fact doesn't matter.

Certainly, the girl saying no to you might mean yes.

But since you can't be sure, you should err on the side of caution until you are.

Actually - a lot of people are But that's fine. You aren't, and I appreciate it.

Certainly, the guy or girl saying no might mean yes. And certainly they might mean no.

I'm not advocating to anyone that they shouldn't accept no as answer. What I'm saying is that, doing so, means potentially missing out on a lifetime of happiness. Not doing so means, potentially, a lifetime on a sex offenders list.

That's tough for anyone to navigate, but especially the young and intoxicated .

Lyaiera

LorMal wrote: »

??? I did not condone his actions in any way. I suggested the punishment was too severe given the permanent and severe impact on his future life . Do you disagree? (It would be helpful for clarity if you would avoid sarcasm).

What punishment? He was fined. He has no jail sentence. He's not on the sex offender's register. That's pretty much as low as it can go without getting to poor box donations.

DamagedTrax

UCDVet wrote: »

Actually - a lot of people are But that's fine. You aren't, and I appreciate it.

Certainly, the guy or girl saying no might mean yes. And certainly they might mean no.

I'm not advocating to anyone that they shouldn't accept no as answer. What I'm saying is that, doing so, means potentially missing out on a lifetime of happiness. Not doing so means, potentially, a lifetime on a sex offenders list.

That's tough for anyone to navigate, but especially the young and intoxicated .

but there are other ways to tell if a girl is interested besides unwarranted, drunken public groping, no matter what happiness i may miss out on.. i like to leave the groping until i know she's into me.

UCDVet

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The only poster introducing a ridiculous strawman is yourself. It's not difficult at all to know what someone means, unless you're trying to justify behaving like an utter scumbag. It's quite clear in the case in the OP that the woman had made it clear to the man he was making her feel uncomfortable. No amount of "ah go on, go on, go on!", after that, is justifiable. The woman in this case was well within her right to report the man who sexually assaulted her, and if only more people were to do the same, you'd find out very quickly that behaviours and attitudes like yours are simply unacceptable in civilised society.

The only behaviours I've described are the ones I've taken myself with a girl that would be a long-term girlfriend and my wife. I don't think those behaviours are unacceptable in civilised society.

In fact, it would seem, the majority of sexually active women agree with me.

Anyway, I wasn't commenting directly on this case. The link provided, I read, but it was light on the details. If you read my first post, I said:

The article is pretty light on details, so it's hard to say much about this particular example. I'd like to assume the guy committed a crime and the legal system got it right. But it's really hard to say that every person who is told to go away, but doesn't, is a criminal.

I'll absolutely stand by everything I've said in this thread. I never said the guy in this article was innocent.

eviltwin

UCDVet wrote: »

Actually - a lot of people are But that's fine. You aren't, and I appreciate it.

Certainly, the guy or girl saying no might mean yes. And certainly they might mean no.

I'm not advocating to anyone that they shouldn't accept no as answer. What I'm saying is that, doing so, means potentially missing out on a lifetime of happiness. Not doing so means, potentially, a lifetime on a sex offenders list.

That's tough for anyone to navigate, but especially the young and intoxicated .

I'm not arguing your stats, I'm arguing context. If X amount of people have said no when they mean yes I'd like to know the situation. I think its pretty clear from this situation that the woman involved was not into it and didn't want him to persist.

Valetta

Adessocucino wrote: »

Explain when someone needs permission to touch. You can'then just make up ambiguous rules like that.

I don't make up any rules.

Thank you for confirming you cannot see the difference I referred to.

eviltwin

UCDVet wrote: »

The only behaviours I've described are the ones I've taken myself with a girl that would be a long-term girlfriend and my wife. I don't think those behaviours are unacceptable in civilised society.

In fact, it would seem, the majority of sexually active women agree with me.

Anyway, I wasn't commenting directly on this case. The link provided, I read, but it was light on the details. If you read my first post, I said:



I'll absolutely stand by everything I've said in this thread. I never said the guy in this article was innocent.

Bingo!

porsche959

"I didn't force her!!!"

Venus In Furs

6541 wrote: »

This is all very one sided. The guy got locked, the guy did what most normal guys do after beer (except of course some of the angles here) and he was brought to court. She must be some wagon. He should have done her for assault, she elbowed him in the stomach.

I understand you're trying to make yourself feel better for being a groper, but you're still wrong!
Most guys do not do this - a guy doesn't have to be an "angle" not to do it.

She shouldn't have elbowed him in the stomach but he shouldn't have touched her inappropriately first.

UCDVet

DamagedTrax wrote: »

there are other ways to tell if a girl is interested besides drunken public groping, no matter what happiness i may miss out on.. i like to leave the groping until i know she's into me.

I don't think that will solve the problem though.

You and a girl can both be into each other and admit to liking each other. That doesn't mean she want to sleep with you. Or kiss you. And even if you two are kissing that doesn't mean she is comfortable with the next logical progression from kissing.

Either you explicitly require consent - which is a totally cool and rational thing to do, or you don't. Hell, I'd much rather everyone just pull out a piece of paper and put a checkbox next to all the things they are comfortable with me doing to them, and vice-versa. But in real life, nobody ever does.

Almost nobody is going to take a date out to a movie and say, 'Before the movie starts, let's go over appropriate touching during the movie. Now, I'd like to put my arm around you, if that's okay. Possibly, hold hands too. If the movie is boring, you can kiss me during. And if you want you can lightly pet my junk through my jeans - but nothing more'

I know married couples who struggle to have such honesty with their sex lives and what they desire. I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect everyone to just be forthcoming with that information.

DamagedTrax

Venus In Furs wrote: »

Most guys do not do this - a guy doesn't have to be an "angle" not to do it.

this.

unless you're a cast member of geordie shore (or have an equivalent IQ level), you probably dont approach women in a sexually aggressive way as its just not acceptable.

DivingDuck

UCDVet wrote: »

Actually - a lot of people are But that's fine. You aren't, and I appreciate it.

Certainly, the guy or girl saying no might mean yes. And certainly they might mean no.

I'm not advocating to anyone that they shouldn't accept no as answer. What I'm saying is that, doing so, means potentially missing out on a lifetime of happiness. Not doing so means, potentially, a lifetime on a sex offenders list.

That's tough for anyone to navigate, but especially the young and intoxicated .

Your posts read as if you are offering this fact as justification for continuing to advance on people when they've asked you to stop. Women, specifically, since that's what the study you quoted refers to. (We have no statistics for men, though it would be an interesting question to ask.) That's what people are taking issue with, because there are a great many women out there who say no and mean no.

You have a strong bias on this opinion which you've clearly stated several times by explaining how you came to meet your partner. With all due respect, this seems to be clouding you ability to accept the fact that for every happy couple who came together despite token resistance, there are literally millions of women who have had to deal with unwanted advances from men after they repeatedly asked them to stop. Your experience is the exception rather than the rule.

The "lifetime of happiness" you mention is an incredibly unlikely outcome. How many men did your wife tell to get lost before she ended up with you? For even a woman who did eventually find happiness with a man she initially rebuffed, there are most likely plenty of men she genuinely rejected, both before and since.

There is nothing tough about this decision.

Keep your hands (and other body parts) to yourself when you receive a no.

UCDVet

eviltwin wrote: »

Bingo!

Cool - well, I'll let me wife know that our marriage was really born out of SEXUAL ASSAULT because some people on After Hours didn't approve. What a horrible person I must be

DamagedTrax

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't think that will solve the problem though.

You and a girl can both be into each other and admit to liking each other. That doesn't mean she want to sleep with you. Or kiss you. And even if you two are kissing that doesn't mean she is comfortable with the next logical progression from kissing.

Either you explicitly require consent - which is a totally cool and rational thing to do, or you don't. Hell, I'd much rather everyone just pull out a piece of paper and put a checkbox next to all the things they are comfortable with me doing to them, and vice-versa. But in real life, nobody ever does.

Almost nobody is going to take a date out to a movie and say, 'Before the movie starts, let's go over appropriate touching during the movie. Now, I'd like to put my arm around you, if that's okay. Possibly, hold hands too. If the movie is boring, you can kiss me during. And if you want you can lightly pet my junk through my jeans - but nothing more'

I know married couples who struggle to have such honesty with their sex lives and what they desire. I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect everyone to just be forthcoming with that information.

but consent is implied thru body language, words and other small hints. if you dont pick up on any of them its not the girls fault.

im pretty sure your average assault victim isnt writhing with pleasure during the proceedings. (although strangely, some do. but thats a weird topic for a different thread).

eviltwin

UCDVet wrote: »

Cool - well, I'll let me wife know that our marriage was really born out of SEXUAL ASSAULT because some people on After Hours didn't approve. What a horrible person I must be

Is that how you chat women up or something?

DivingDuck

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not arguing your stats, I'm arguing context. If X amount of people have said no when they mean yes I'd like to know the situation. I think its pretty clear from this situation that the woman involved was not into it and didn't want him to persist.

All this figure means is that if a man gets a no from ten women, at some point in her life, seven of those women have said it without meaning it.

From that, you can make no inferences whatsoever about whether any of those women meant it when they said it to him. All ten of them might have meant their no absolutely.

Just because a fact is true does not make it relevant.

namloc1980

UCDVet wrote: »

The only behaviours I've described are the ones I've taken myself with a girl that would be a long-term girlfriend and my wife. I don't think those behaviours are unacceptable in civilised society.

In fact, it would seem, the majority of sexually active women agree with me.

Anyway, I wasn't commenting directly on this case. The link provided, I read, but it was light on the details. If you read my first post, I said:



I'll absolutely stand by everything I've said in this thread. I never said the guy in this article was innocent.

Unless you have a survey which covers this situation: percentage of women who say no but mean yes when harassed and groped by a drunk at a society dinner of peers, then your stats are irrelevant.