Outrageous Sexual Assuault

DivingDuck

lanos wrote: »

I don't think you understand where UCDvet is coming from.
In my experience, 15 years ago admittedly, a girl would come back to my apartment. End up in the bedroom. Kiss kiss cuddle cuddle.... drop the hand ....no stop....5 minutes later repeat.... no stop....... repeat 10 times.
In frustration, I hand her a spare duvet and tell her to sleep on sofa. 10 minutes later tap tap tap on the door.... ha ha result.
Sometimes no means try different tactics

Leaving and letting the girl come after you is by far a better approach than continuing to touch her when she has asked you not to. If everyone would do this, there wouldn't be a problem.

namloc1980

Sand wrote: »

The assault seems completely out of order and the sentencing appears to be totally justified. The OP is clearly not serious.

What I cant process is they were at a gathering of solicitors, and the unwelcome attention was going on for 15 minutes. The guy was clearly drunk, was there nobody there to drag him off when it was clear there was a problem?

What I would wonder is if the fact he is drunk not mitigate his actions. He would clearly have been impaired and would have made decisions he would not otherwise have made. Right?

Drunkenness is never a defence to anything. "I was pissed when I hit him your honour"...." well in that case you're free to go, case dismissed ".

Lyaiera

LorMal wrote: »

I think it is clear he was not thinking.
Still, it is too harsh.

He was fined. That's a really low level punishment.

DamagedTrax

lanos wrote: »

I don't think you understand where UCDvet is coming from.
In my experience, 15 years ago admittedly, a girl would come back to my apartment. End up in the bedroom. Kiss kiss cuddle cuddle.... drop the hand ....no stop....5 minutes later repeat.... no stop....... repeat 10 times.
In frustration, I hand her a spare duvet and tell her to sleep on sofa. 10 minutes later tap tap tap on the door.... ha ha result.
Sometimes no means try different tactics

but thats a situation where she's into you.. and as long as you dont jump the gun (or the girl!), you'll probably get some action. and if you dont, you have a **** when she's gone.

UCDVet

DivingDuck wrote: »

But the point I'm trying to make is that the fact that it can mean yes doesn't in the slightest matter because you can never assume the no you are hearing is in fact a yes. It is as irrelevant a fact as the temperature of the surface of the sun or how many chucks a woodchuck could chuck (if a woodchuck could chuck wood).

To look at it another way: sometimes I eat a piece of cake after dinner. That doesn't mean I want every piece of chocolate cake offered to me, and when I politely refuse the cake, I expect it to be taken away, not shoveled into my mouth.

What you're talking about is essentially sexual Mrs Doyleism. The "Go on, go on, go on, go on, GO ON" approach to mating. Is that attractive? Another question: have you ever been in that situation? If so, wasn't it incredibly annoying? When you refuse something, and mean it, you'd like if it the other person would be mannerly enough to respect your request.

Now imagine that instead of something as trivial as a cup of tea, it's something as intimate and personal as your sexual experience. How many orders of magnitude worse would that be?

It doesn't matter if no sometimes means yes. You (not you personally, a hypothetical person) can't be sure that it does in this (hypothetical) instance, so you'd be putting another person through a horrible, traumatic experience on the off-chance that they might be lying because some women lied about their desire for some sex acts some of the time.

Again: just because it's true doesn't mean it's relevant. You keep pushing the validity of this fact, but even accepting it to be 100% iron-clad truth, it still doesn't matter because it in no way means it's true in every instance.

Of course not. And I've said as much.

I mentioned the 70% figure *in passing*. My original comment was about whether or not a guy should immediately leave after a girl says to go away. I said that, without more details, it's hard to say.

Then I mentioned that, EVEN SOMETHING AS EXTREME AS SEX, gets mixed signals, and that a survey I read said it as many as 70% of women admitted to saying no when they meant yes.

It was a side-note to my point.

Then someone demanded a source and called me out for not having a source to everything I've ever read that I mention online. Then I gave a source to a similar study (that didn't separate out non-virgins) and had 40% of women saying yes.

Then I found the original paper I was remembering and found the 70% of nonvirgin Russian women.

Have you every asked someone if they wanted something, and if they declined, said, 'Are you sure?'. That's what I was talking about. I was referring to a conversation. I only mentioned the sex bit because it's true, tangentially related, and (I think) interesting.

eviltwin

lanos wrote: »

I don't think you understand where UCDvet is coming from.
In my experience, 15 years ago admittedly, a girl would come back to my apartment. End up in the bedroom. Kiss kiss cuddle cuddle.... drop the hand ....no stop....5 minutes later repeat.... no stop....... repeat 10 times.
In frustration, I hand her a spare duvet and tell her to sleep on sofa. 10 minutes later tap tap tap on the door.... ha ha result.
Sometimes no means try different tactics

No I understand what he means. I get that there are situations where people will say no. In your situation the fact she was still happy to continue lying there with you says a lot. Also when she said no you stopped and then tried again after a brief pause. If she had been trying to get away I doubt you would have persisted, you would have known that she wasn't into it. I know UCDVet isn't saying what this guy did was okay or acceptable but when you post on a sex assault thread that sometimes no means yes then its easy to see how people get pissed off by it.

Lyaiera

LorMal wrote: »

Indeed. That is only part of his punishment however.
Bringing it to court ensured maximum retribution in public. The actual fine is the least of his problems now

Are you saying crimes shouldn't be prosecuted?

Gatling

How many JCBs are required at this stage

eviltwin

LorMal wrote: »

Really - think that losing his job and future career prospects forever, maybe his marriage, being a social pariah, the fines, the media coverage..etc - is this an appropriate level of punishment in your view?

Ah god love him. He brought it on himself. No sympathy.

LorMal

Lyaiera wrote: »

Are you saying crimes shouldn't be prosecuted?

Yes. I am saying no crimes should ever be prosecuted. Ever.

LorMal

eviltwin wrote: »

Ah god love him. He brought it on himself. No sympathy.

Therefore you regard any punishment, no matter how harsh, to be appropriate?

DamagedTrax

eviltwin wrote: »

Ah god love him. He brought it on himself. No sympathy.

exactly, the guy should be thanking his lucky stars. while i wouldnt agree with him going on the register for drunken groping, i would have fined him a whole lot more and compensated the girl.

Lyaiera

LorMal wrote: »

Therefore you regard any punishment, no matter how harsh, to be appropriate?

His punishment was a fine, nothing more, nothing less. How other people choose to respond to someone who has sexually assaulted a person is entirely their own business.

eviltwin

LorMal wrote: »

Therefore you regard any punishment, no matter how harsh, to be appropriate?

How about people take some personal responsibility? The damage to his marriage, his reputation etc have nothing to do with the courts. That's a natural fall out when you do something like this. Do I feel sorry for him? No. I wouldn't stay with a man who did this. I wouldn't hire a solicitor who did this. Whose fault is that? Only his own. The courts just imposed a fine.

Ficheall

DivingDuck wrote: »

To look at it another way: sometimes I eat a piece of cake after dinner. That doesn't mean I want every piece of chocolate cake offered to me, and when I politely refuse the cake, I expect it to be taken away, not shoveled into my mouth.

If you're making this analogy, then UCDVet's argument surely runs that when you're offered a biscuit with your tea by your host and you say "Arah, no, I'm grand." Then they say "Are you sure?" And you say "Arah, g'wan so! "

And is there any of us who haven't occasionally accepted the biscuit on the second offering? I'd doubt it, and I'd expect that often we would be disappointed if the second offer weren't made so that we could act as though we're being coerced into it. It probably happens in every household in Ireland at least once a week.

It's a pretty **** analogy to be making though.

DivingDuck

UCDVet wrote: »

Of course not. And I've said as much.

I mentioned the 70% figure *in passing*. My original comment was about whether or not a guy should immediately leave after a girl says to go away. I said that, without more details, it's hard to say.

Then I mentioned that, EVEN SOMETHING AS EXTREME AS SEX, gets mixed signals, and that a survey I read said it as many as 70% of women admitted to saying no when they meant yes.

It was a side-note to my point.

Then someone demanded a source and called me out for not having a source to everything I've ever read that I mention online. Then I gave a source to a similar study (that didn't separate out non-virgins) and had 40% of women saying yes.

Then I found the original paper I was remembering and found the 70% of nonvirgin Russian women.

Have you every asked someone if they wanted something, and if they declined, said, 'Are you sure?'. That's what I was talking about. I was referring to a conversation. I only mentioned the sex bit because it's true, tangentially related, and (I think) interesting.

I understand completely that you were backing up your point, and I'm not saying you shouldn't have posted the link. I'm only saying the point doesn't matter to this discussion. It's interesting, yes, but relevant? No.

As I said in my first post on this thread, we'd be a lot better off if we got rid of the "Are you sure" politeness/sexual meekness nonsense in society for the sake of both men who won't want to waste their time chasing girls who are not interested and for the sake of women who don't want to waste their time trying to make guys they're not interested in leave.

As before, I am not debating the fact that sometimes girls will say no when they mean yes. I'm only saying that has no bearing on whether a guy should back down or not. If he gets a no, he should walk away or at least make moves to do so.

If the girl is genuinely interested, she can then confess to her interest, and if not, nobody is sexually assaulted or slapped with a sex offense charge. That has to be the best and most desirable end result for everyone, surely?

LorMal

Lyaiera wrote: »

His punishment was a fine, nothing more, nothing less. How other people choose to respond to someone who has sexually assaulted a person is entirely their own business.

Your point is that he only received a fine (a pretty hefty fine). That's true and I fully accept that.

My point is that the consequences for him run a lot deeper and will negatively impact his live very severely and probably forever.

Therefore, I believe this to be unfair. I have made really stupid mistakes myself in the past. Most people have.

This could have been handled better in my opinion. Again, that is not to condone his actions but to have some compassion.

DamagedTrax

LorMal wrote: »

Your point is that he only received a fine (a pretty hefty fine). That's true and I fully accept that.

My point is that the consequences for him run a lot deeper and will negatively impact his live very severely and probably forever.

Therefore, I believe this to be unfair. I have made really stupid mistakes myself in the past. Most people have.

This could have been handled better in my opinion. Again, that is not to condone his actions but to have some compassion.

thats down to the media though... and we wouldnt really expect any subtlety from them in a different situation that really called for it.

A 'sex offender' is fair game to them unless the law is blocking them.

eviltwin

LorMal wrote: »

Your point is that he only received a fine (a pretty hefty fine). That's true and I fully accept that.

My point is that the consequences for him run a lot deeper and will negatively impact his live very severely and probably forever.

Therefore, I believe this to be unfair. I have made really stupid mistakes myself in the past. Most people have.

This could have been handled better in my opinion. Again, that is not to condone his actions but to have some compassion.

He didn't have much compassion for his victim did he? Fcuk him. Maybe some women can brush this kind of thing off and be fine about it but having been there myself its not that easy, it does affect you to have someone touch you in an intimate area without consent. His fine was a fair punishment from the court. You'd have to be a fool to think you can do this and still keep your relationship and reputation intact.

circadian

The man is/was a junior partner, a position of seniority within the company. He is professionally bound to behave correctly, regardless of it being in work or at a work function and having had a few drinks. He's also a family man, I'm pretty sure his actions have made things difficult at home, that'll work wonders with the kids.

He himself is solicitor, he knows the ramifications of behaving like this and was punished by the same laws he practices.

Just desserts in my eyes.

DivingDuck

Ficheall wrote: »

If you're making this analogy, then UCDVet's argument surely runs that when you're offered a biscuit with your tea by your host and you say "Arah, no, I'm grand." Then they say "Are you sure?" And you say "Arah, g'wan so! "

And is there any of us who haven't occasionally accepted the biscuit on the second offering? I'd doubt it, and I'd expect that often we would be disappointed if the second offer weren't made so that we could act as though we're being coerced into it. It probably happens in every household in Ireland at least once a week.

It's a pretty **** analogy to be making though.

I was being facetious to try to take a bit of the seriousness out of the argument to see if that calmed the situation down any. I was also sort of hoping that remembering how Mrs Doyle's antics specifically showcase how insufferably annoying this behaviour is might encourage people to stop doing it themselves.

Personally, when I say no, I mean no. I don't hold with the (antiquated and confusing) concept of refusing the first time not to seem greedy. I've always thought it was unnecessary and time-wasting nonsense.

My initial post in this thread was to state that people saying no when they meant yes (in any arena) was unhelpful for everyone, and I stand by that, but that it does sometimes happen in no way excuses or justifies continuing to push your interest on someone since you can't determine whether their no isn't genuine.

Holsten

circadian wrote: »

Just desserts in my eyes.

Losing your job, possible family, friends, criminal conviction, problems with travel, insurance, visas for the rest of your life is just desserts for what he done?

Did you read what he actually done? And you agree? Madness.

Beanstalk

Some guy groped a friend of mine in a pub recently. I spoke to him and told him I thought it was inappropriate and he shouldn't have done it. I wasn't aggressive, I just let him know I saw him do it.

He completely flipped the lid and started pushing and shouting. I just stood back and waited for the bouncer. The bouncer arrived and did nothing. He knew he was caught but he wasn't asked to leave. Couldn't beleive it. That kind of behavior should be nipped in the bud right away. He should have been asked to leave so my friend could enjoy her night comfortably. We just ended up leaving.

UCDVet

DivingDuck wrote: »

I understand completely that you were backing up your point, and I'm not saying you shouldn't have posted the link. I'm only saying the point doesn't matter to this discussion. It's interesting, yes, but relevant? No.

As I said in my first post on this thread, we'd be a lot better off if we got rid of the "Are you sure" politeness/sexual meekness nonsense in society for the sake of both men who won't want to waste their time chasing girls who are not interested and for the sake of women who don't want to waste their time trying to make guys they're not interested in leave.

As before, I am not debating the fact that sometimes girls will say no when they mean yes. I'm only saying that has no bearing on whether a guy should back down or not. If he gets a no, he should walk away or at least make moves to do so.

If the girl is genuinely interested, she can then confess to her interest, and if not, nobody is sexually assaulted or slapped with a sex offense charge. That has to be the best and most desirable end result for everyone, surely?

I honestly think we agree, at least on the sex part.

It doesn't matter if 10% or 99.9% of people (male or female) sometimes say No when they mean Yes. If someone says No, (at least in a sexual context), you can't know. So you have to treat it as a real no. And, the legal system agrees - anything other than stopping is a crime.

I also agree 100% that it would be much better if people (male or female) would simply confess their sexual interest. I don't know how well that will work in practice, but in theory, it would be great.

Lyaiera

Holsten wrote: »

Losing your job, possible family, friends, criminal conviction, problems with travel, insurance, visas for the rest of your life is just desserts for what he done?

Did you read what he actually done? And you agree? Madness.

He sexually assaulted someone. Would you want to be in a relationship with someone who sexually assaults people? Would you want to have someone who sexually assaults people represent you? Would you want someone who sexually assaults people to be working with children? This all stems from his behaviour.

lanos

eviltwin wrote: »

No I understand what he means. I get that there are situations where people will say no. In your situation the fact she was still happy to continue lying there with you says a lot. Also when she said no you stopped and then tried again after a brief pause. If she had been trying to get away I doubt you would have persisted, you would have known that she wasn't into it. I know UCDVet isn't saying what this guy did was okay or acceptable but when you post on a sex assault thread that sometimes no means yes then its easy to see how people get pissed off by it.

Fair enough, but I believe his survey of Russian non-virgins covered this exact scenario and similar scenarios. I would challenge all red blooded male AH users to admit if this is their experience also. Even if it is unpopular and damages their inflow of post THANKS I know how much importance people here place on receiving validation. Not me BTW
And don't get pissed-off. Its just the internet.

DivingDuck

UCDVet wrote: »

It doesn't matter if 10% or 99.9% of people (male or female) sometimes say No when they mean Yes. If someone says No, (at least in a sexual context), you can't know. So you have to treat it as a real no. And, the legal system agrees - anything other than stopping is a crime.

If you'd have said that at the start, you'd have had a lot fewer people angrily quoting you.

That was all I meant, honestly, and I think all the point a lot of other people were trying to make.

As for people being more honest/forward... I think it's absolutely achievable, but perhaps not overnight. First we'd have to stop looking at women who openly want sex as sluts and slags, and at sex as something that men "do to" women. On top of that, though, as has come up vaguely before, the "Refuse first" culture is huge in this country generally, not just in terms of sex.

I do think these are things that can and should be overcome for the benefit of men and women both, but it's certainly not going to happen immediately.

hollster2

Holsten wrote: »

Losing your job, possible family, friends, criminal conviction, problems with travel, insurance, visas for the rest of your life is just desserts for what he done?

Did you read what he actually done? And you agree? Madness.

I read what he did and to me he got what he deserved dont know if your male or female but imagine it was your girlfriend/wife/daughter came home to you and said this is what happened would you not try everthing to see he got what he deserved?

LorMal

eviltwin wrote: »

He didn't have much compassion for his victim did he? Fcuk him. Maybe some women can brush this kind of thing off and be fine about it but having been there myself its not that easy, it does affect you to have someone touch you in an intimate area without consent. His fine was a fair punishment from the court. You'd have to be a fool to think you can do this and still keep your relationship and reputation intact.

I am not condoning it. I just think the impact on his life is devastating and cruel. I believe it is not proportionate.
However, you see it differently and I respect that. I imagine it is intolerable to be on the receiving end of such behavior and I am very sorry to hear that it happened to you.

This was not a serious case. His life is ruined forever.

Holsten

Lyaiera wrote: »

He sexually assaulted someone. Would you want to be in a relationship with someone who sexually assaults people? Would you want to have someone who sexually assaults people represent you? Would you want someone who sexually assaults people to be working with children? This all stems from his behaviour.

For what happened in his case?

Relationship? Wouldn't care.
Job? Doesn't affect his job in the slightest, wouldn't care.
Working with kids? She was a grown woman, wouldn't care.

So you agree that what he done justifies the punishments he'll receive?