Pats accused of under inflating game balls against the Colts (MOD WARNING #457)

Jolly Red Giant

The Pats got caught - again - simple as.

JaMarcusHustle

Just when you think the NFL couldn't fúck this up any more spectacularly...

DeflateGate: NFL Hired Same Research Firm That Denied Secondhand Smoke Causes Cancer

Questions are being raised about Exponent, the California-based engineering firm employed by the NFL and Wells in the scientific part of their investigation.

A February 2010 article in the Los Angeles Times, which was brought to my attention on Twitter by Rich Hill of Pats Pulpit, alleges that Exponent is a “hired gun” called upon by major corporations to “weather messy disputes.”
The article also states that Exponent’s scientific standards are right to be criticized.

“But Exponent’s research has come under fire from critics, including engineers, attorneys and academics who say the company tends to deliver to clients the reports they need to mount a public defense.”

Exponent has represented many major high-profile companies, including Toyota, Ford, Suzuki, Exxon and others. Often times, according to the article, Exponent reaches questionable conclusions based on their allegiances.

“[In May 2009], the Amazon Defense Coalition alleged that an Exponent study finding that dumping oil waste in the Ecuadorean rain forest did not increase cancer rates was tainted because the firm’s largest shareholder was a member of the board of Chevron Corp., which commissioned the study.”

But that’s not all, either.

In fact, Exponent once argued for Big Tobacco that secondhand smoke does not lead to cancer, which we now know is false.

“Stanton Glantz, [is] a cardiologist at UC San Francisco who runs a database on the tobacco industry that contains thousands of pages of Exponent research arguing, among other things, that secondhand smoke does not cause cancer.”

Does this article change the way you feel about Ted Wells’ findings?

JaMarcusHustle

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The Pats got caught - again - simple as.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

I see that the Pats have been caught again up to their usual antics

http://yourteamcheats.com/

Look at that, at least Denver have a higher score than New England in something this year.

poldebruin

Well, after a long wait, the report has confirmed, with as strong a conclusion as could be reasonably expected, that there was indeed a conscious effort by some in the Patriots organisation to purposely deflate footballs to gain an advantage. People will talk about integrity of the game etc, but as usual, the attempts to conflate and cover up is what made the mess worse.

What's not surprising, is the same posters who had asked repeatedly throughout the thread, not to rush to judgement, to wait for the report, that it's all hearsay, rumour, a conspiracy against the Patriots and gleefully filled the thread with juvenile posts when the owner released his statement lambasting the NFL in January, do not accept and are now calling it's findings into question.

Outside of having a whistleblower or video evidence of this occurring, the report was never going to have stronger language than what was published yesterday. I certainly did not expect the report to be so damning.

I have read that the punishment will be a slap on the wrist, but in my mind, the amount of press this got in the run up to the biggest game of the season, the fact that it occurred in the Championship game, the apparent lack of full cooperation, and the attempts to obfuscate the investigation, will lead to a severe punishment. My guess is the fact that Belichick and the Patriots organisation (as a whole) have not been implicated will limit the punishment to those involved directly. (unless the NFL determine that (apparent) ignorance of the breach of rules is not an excuse and fine the owner or look at loss of draft picks)

BoJack Horseman

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

http://yourteamcheats.com/

Look at that, at least Denver have a higher score than New England in something this year.

Big furry deal!

As per your link, the Packers are bigger cheats than the Pats due to shenanigans 95 years ago!

As whataboutery goes, this is the lamest I think I've ever seen!

Knex*

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

Just when you think the NFL couldn't fúck this up any more spectacularly...

Well if he didn't convict second hand smoke of causing cancer, and thinks Brady probably did this, then Tom is definitely guilty :pac:

eagle eye

The report is mixed up and all over the place to suggest that balls were lower than they should be.

This shows that they were not.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QhGMoE80dWZaIFA00XYVDbUEoZ6g0G3CGzF6Muc72yI/edit?usp=sharing

In fact the report states on page 7 of their report, Table 4, the average measured drops at halftime between the two testing officials was 1.39 and 1.01.

Page 198-99 of the report (page 39 Table 10 of the Exponent report) says that the expected drop in pressure from 70 degrees to 48 is 1.13 for a ball filled to 12.5.

The above proves that everything was in line with what is expected to happen. The report splits this up so they can suggest otherwise but it just shows the stupidity, or deviousness, of those who compiled the report.

The proof of no wrongdoing is actually in the report despite their attempts to suggest otherwise.

Hulk Hands

Not sure why there is such outrage about the wording of the report. Basically all of justice is done on a likelihood basis, just this report decided to put that into words. It's exceedingly obvious the Pats are guilty of this (small and probably common) crime, they just cant say for definite. People are just using it as another stick to beat the NFL with also. They have rightly took their time with this investigation, absolutely no need to rush it given that the season doesnt start for months and it's probably not important enough to involve draft picks.

Knex*

Pats interfered with the balls after the refs examined them. That alone is not allowed.

It would appear that the refs put more air in them to get them within the limit, but made them bigger than Brady likes. Brady complained about this before to the equipment people, going by the texts, and they were in charge of getting the balls back down to probably the lower limit of the range.

However, the balls ended up below this limit, and going by the text messages again, its easy to see how people would interpret this as being deliberate also. What can't really be denied, is that they wanted the balls deflated to some degree. What can be argued is that they only wanted them at the lower allowed limit, and it was by accident or from the weather that they ended up below this.

Add in that in the texts he refers to himself as "the deflator", and also says, “Chill buddy im just ****in with you ....im not going to espn........yet”, and its fairly evident McNally thought what he was doing was worth a story. Come to your own logical conclusions as to why that may be.

Add in those autographed memorabilia and you add another possibly "dodgy" layer to the whole thing.

Add in Brady claiming he didn't know McNally when he clearly did.

Add in McNally claiming he used a urinal in the bathroom when there is no urinal in the bathroom at all.

Come on.

I don't really see this as being a big deal, but the whole "We did nothing. NFL are out to get us. What a joke" type mentality is a little much.

poldebruin

I think the NFL will consider the deliberate tampering of the football equipment and subsequent evasiveness enough to warrant a serious sanction. I think Brady will get a game or two ban. The equipment manager and referee assistant are done in the NFL, obviously. The NFL will need to send a message, it's a tough spot for Goodell, does he suspend Brady for the season opener? If he does not, the rest of the league will see it as favouritism towards the Patriots.

I don't think they have enough to punish the Patriots/Belichick (although the Sean Payton/bountygate situation is an obvious precedent for this happening)

The US media seem to be running with the "Brady is a cheater and this will forever tarnish his legacy" angle. The US media/public can be funny about these sorts of things, requiring a mea culpa, before forgiveness begins.

I'll be honest, I don't know how this makes me feel about Brady, my initial feeling is that this does not matter (to his legacy) and he was/is clearly a great QB (I do feel bad for him getting caught up with the lies/texts and the sight of him at the podium, looking just about as uncomfortable as you will ever see Tom Brady). I'm not sure it will happen, but I would like for him to come out with a statement about making a mistake and owning it, and to be able to put it behind and get ready for the new season.

D9Male

As a casual NFL observer for years, I am absolutely gobsmacked by some of the denials from Pats fans I have read this morning on the internet.

It reminds me quite a bit of the aftermath of Tygart's USADA report into Lance Armstrong. I mean Brady wasn't caught with a pump, but short of that, they have a body of evidence to suggest skullduggery.

I wonder how long Brady has been at it.

eagle eye

D9Male wrote: »

As a casual NFL observer for years, I am absolutely gobsmacked by some of the denials from Pats fans I have read this morning on the internet.

It reminds me quite a bit of the aftermath of Tygart's USADA report into Lance Armstrong. I mean Brady wasn't caught with a pump, but short of that, they have a body of evidence to suggest skullduggery.

I wonder how long Brady has been at it.

Are you 'gobsmacked' by my post or did you even read it? Did any of you read it?

It's clear that there was no wrongdoing as far as the psi is concerned.

D9Male

Yes I am gobsmacked by your post.

The report found that "Based on the evidence, it also is our view that it is more probable than not that Tom Brady (the quarterback for the Patriots) was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities of McNally and Jastremski involving the release of air from Patriots game balls.".

It is illegal to tamper with the footballs after they have been checked by an independent observer.

You seem to ignore the bits of the report that spoke about Brady lying, people tampering, etc. and focus on psi in the balls. The psi in the balls was not what they used to conclude that this was cheating.

Knex*

As discussed above, Brady‟s refusal to provide us with his own emails, text messages and phone records on relevant topics, in response to our narrowly tailored requests, limited the evidence available for our review and analysis. We believe that our findings are nevertheless supported by the evidence and information available to us during the course of our work.

What's the precedent for players handing over private, yet specifically relevant, information to the NFL? Ever been done, or even asked for, before?

eagle eye

D9Male wrote: »

Yes I am gobsmacked by your post.

The report found that "Based on the evidence, it also is our view that it is more probable than not that Tom Brady (the quarterback for the Patriots) was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities of McNally and Jastremski involving the release of air from Patriots game balls.".

It is illegal to tamper with the footballs after they have been checked by an independent observer.

You seem to ignore the bits of the report that spoke about Brady lying, people tampering, etc. and focus on psi in the balls. The psi in the balls was not what they used to conclude that this was cheating.

The whole issue is about the psi in the balls. That is what the investigation was supposed to be about.

They found no problem with that, even though they try to make you believe otherwise, so they come out with a load of unprovable rubbish to try and make some individuals look guilty of something.

This is a New York law firm and they did their job as accusers and the language used is what would be used to prepare for a civil trial. They didn't find anything strong enough to use the language that one would use in a criminal case. The whole report is full of spin that a ruthless media outfit would be proud of.

The Patriots could come out and challenge this and win but it's more than likely not worth the time and effort versus the cost of challenging and the miniscule, if any, punishment that will come from this.

They are not even going after the Patriots in this, they are going after individuals instead.

Anybody posting saying the Patriots cheated are just plain wrong.

Anybody questioning Tom Brady can do so because of this ridiculous report and I'm not going to attack anybody who does that. I don't think there is any proof that he did anything and I don't believe that Tom Brady did or intended to do anything wrong.

Knex*

How were you ever expecting them to use language from a criminal case instead of a civil suit? :pac:

and this?

Anybody posting saying the Patriots cheated are just plain wrong

They evidently tampered with the footballs after the refs examined them. That's illegal. Also known as cheating, in Sports.

I hadn't given a crap about this whole thing, but reading your head in the sand defence is almost nauseating.

eagle eye

Knex. wrote: »

How were you ever expecting them to use language from a criminal case instead of a civil suit? :pac:

They have and will always use the strongest language they can. They used stronger language in the Richie Incognito investigation. Wells did that report too.

eagle eye

Knex. wrote: »

How were you ever expecting them to use language from a criminal case instead of a civil suit? :pac:

and this?



They evidently tampered with the footballs after the refs examined them. That's illegal. Also known as cheating, in Sports.

I hadn't given a crap about this whole thing, but reading your head in the sand defence is almost nauseating.

On the edited part of your post. They are not accusing the Patriots as an organisation, they are accusing individuals of doing these things independently.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

The report is mixed up and all over the place to suggest that balls were lower than they should be.

This shows that they were not.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QhGMoE80dWZaIFA00XYVDbUEoZ6g0G3CGzF6Muc72yI/edit?usp=sharing

where is that from? i thought that they definitely had most of there balls under the limit but the argument was that it was the weather changed the psi?

poldebruin wrote: »

I think the NFL will consider the deliberate tampering of the football equipment and subsequent evasiveness enough to warrant a serious sanction. I think Brady will get a game or two ban. The equipment manager and referee assistant are done in the NFL, obviously. The NFL will need to send a message, it's a tough spot for Goodell, does he suspend Brady for the season opener? If he does not, the rest of the league will see it as favouritism towards the Patriots.

I don't think they have enough to punish the Patriots/Belichick (although the Sean Payton/bountygate situation is an obvious precedent for this happening)

The US media seem to be running with the "Brady is a cheater and this will forever tarnish his legacy" angle. The US media/public can be funny about these sorts of things, requiring a mea culpa, before forgiveness begins.

I'll be honest, I don't know how this makes me feel about Brady, my initial feeling is that this does not matter (to his legacy) and he was/is clearly a great QB (I do feel bad for him getting caught up with the lies/texts and the sight of him at the podium, looking just about as uncomfortable as you will ever see Tom Brady). I'm not sure it will happen, but I would like for him to come out with a statement about making a mistake and owning it, and to be able to put it behind and get ready for the new season.

it won't affect bradys legacy in the slightest in my opinion several ex abs have more or less admitted to the altering of footballs outside of the rules. if it is a red mark on his career its likely one that will be put there by the mainstream media who dont know that much about it.

also brady shouldn't be suspended as

1. theres not undequivocal proof that he was involved you cant fine a guy because he may have done something
2. as far as i know the max punishment is a fine anyway

eagle eye

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

where is that from? i thought that they definitely had most of there balls under the limit but the argument was that it was the weather changed the psi?

That was done by a student at MIT who posts on another site.

It's all in the report anyways, just separated into two parts which are the acceptable levels and then the actual levels. You can find it in the actual report but you have to compare the information yourself.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

On the edited part of your post. They are not accusing the Patriots as an organisation, they are accusing individuals of doing these things independently.

more or less irrelevant to be honest. when a lot of the seahawks players got caught for peds nobody said player a,b,c,d etc. are cheaters they said that the seahawks are. if chip kelly tampers with a player outside of the legal free agency period its not chip kelly is a cheater its the eagles are cheaters.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

That was done by a student at MIT who posts on another site.

It's all in the report anyways, just separated into two parts which are the acceptable levels and then the actual levels. You can find it in the actual report but you have to compare the information yourself.

how where the students at mit able to measure the balls i had heard that there where students testing what difference the weather can make to a ball but i dont understand how they could refute the nfls numbers.

eagle eye

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

how where the students at mit able to measure the balls i had heard that there where students testing what difference the weather can make to a ball but i dont understand how they could refute the nfls numbers.

They didn't, he just took the information from the report and checked the math and then put all the information in one spreadsheet.

The NFL numbers show that the balls were ok. As I've said, the report is full of spin but if you take the facts out then you will see that the psi was fine given the weather conditions.

Knex*

eagle eye wrote: »

They have and will always use the strongest language they can. They used stronger language in the Richie Incognito investigation. Wells did that report too.

Physical and verbal abuse that caused a person to leave his job is a lot more serious in the eyes of the law than a Sports incident that the law actually doesn't give a **** about.

Your comparing apples to oranges here.

eagle eye wrote: »

On the edited part of your post. They are not accusing the Patriots as an organisation, they are accusing individuals of doing these things independently.

Who are employed by?

You're doing so much to run away from the notion that there was foul play at hand here. Why? Its a deflated football. Nobody really cares. It won't diminish the Super Bowl victory. Hell, ye hammered the Colts in that game.

poldebruin

eagle eye wrote: »

The whole issue is about the psi in the balls. That is what the investigation was supposed to be about.

The investigation was into whether the Patriots or someone in the organisation deliberately deflated footballs after the referee inspected them. The report found that they probably did.

eagle eye wrote: »

They found no problem with that, even though they try to make you believe otherwise, so they come out with a load of unprovable rubbish to try and make some individuals look guilty of something.

We all knew from the outset of this process that they didn't need to prove anything to the standard of a criminal case. They just need to show it was probable that what was alleged took place, which they did.

eagle eye wrote: »

This is a New York law firm and they did their job as accusers and the language used is what would be used to prepare for a civil trial. They didn't find anything strong enough to use the language that one would use in a criminal case. The whole report is full of spin that a ruthless media outfit would be proud of.

This is ridiculous, they had no good reason to find the Patriots guilty of anything. It would have been far easier for the NFL for this story to just disappear and go away. The text messages and the evasiveness tell their own story and don't need to be spun in any way.

eagle eye wrote: »

The Patriots could come out and challenge this and win but it's more than likely not worth the time and effort versus the cost of challenging and the miniscule, if any, punishment that will come from this. .

Purposely circumventing the rules and tampering with the equipment used to play the game, along with the lack of cooperation? I can't say for sure obviously, but I would be stunned if the punishment was minuscule as you suggest.

eagle eye wrote: »

They are not even going after the Patriots in this, they are going after individuals instead. .

Possibly, but the Sean Payton situation shows that the NFL may find Belichick and Kraft are culpable by not being aware of what was going on. I suppose we'll have to wait a few more days to see.

eagle eye wrote: »

Anybody posting saying the Patriots cheated are just plain wrong. .

I agree with this. It doesn't look good for the Patriots, and it stretches credulity to think that this wasn't common knowledge within the Patriots coaching staff, but the report clearly points the finger at Brady and the two employees alone.

eagle eye wrote: »

Anybody questioning Tom Brady can do so because of this ridiculous report and I'm not going to attack anybody who does that. I don't think there is any proof that he did anything and I don't believe that Tom Brady did or intended to do anything wrong.

Unfortunately (or not, depending on your outlook) the media are already running with the narrative that Brady is a cheater and his legacy is tainted. I doubt too many Patriot fans (yourself included) are going to let this affect their support for Brady.

eagle eye

Knex. wrote: »

How were you ever expecting them to use language from a criminal case instead of a civil suit? :pac:

eagle eye wrote: »

They have and will always use the strongest language they can. They used stronger language in the Richie Incognito investigation. Wells did that report too.

Knex. wrote: »

Physical and verbal abuse that caused a person to leave his job is a lot more serious in the eyes of the law than a Sports incident that the law actually doesn't give a **** about.

Your comparing apples to oranges here.

:rolleyes:

Knex*

eagle eye wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Oh noes, roll eyes. That's me shown.

I'm deflated, so I am.

poldebruin

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

if it is a red mark on his career its likely one that will be put there by the mainstream media who dont know that much about it.

....and that is why it may affect his legacy. The media are largely what create and maintain these things. When most can't remember seeing him play, they will read about him deflating footballs. Unfair, yes, but a possibility.

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

also brady shouldn't be suspended as

1. theres not undequivocal proof that he was involved you cant fine a guy because he may have done something
2. as far as i know the max punishment is a fine anyway

1. They do not need to be able to prove it, the NFL themselves have wording that makes it clear that the balance of probability is all that is required for sanction.
2. But they can argue that it affects the integrity of the game, a systematic attempt to cheat the system. If that's the way it is viewed, the punishment will be a lot more than a fine.

D9Male

Have you read the report, eagle eye? And assuming you have, why are your eyes drawn to the psi figures rather than this?

"When Anderson and other members of the officiating crew were preparing to
leave the Officials Locker Room to head to the field for the start of the game, the
game balls could not be located. It was the first time in Anderson‟s nineteen
years as an NFL official that he could not locate the game balls at the start of a
game. Unknown to Anderson, and without Anderson‟s permission or the
permission of any other member of the officiating crew, McNally had taken the
balls from the Officials Locker Room towards the playing field."

or this:

"Based on videotape evidence and witness interviews, it has been determined that
McNally removed the game balls from the Officials Locker Room at
approximately 6:30 p.m. After leaving the Officials Locker Room carrying two
large bags of game balls (Patriots balls and Colts balls), McNally turned left and
then turned left again to walk down a corridor referred to by Patriots personnel as
the “center tunnel” heading to the playing field......
McNally entered that bathroom with the game balls, locked
the door, and remained in the bathroom with the game balls for approximately one
minute and forty seconds. He then left the bathroom and took the bags of game
balls to the field."

or this:

"In the weeks and months before the AFC Championship Game, McNally
periodically exchanged text messages with the Patriots equipment assistant
primarily responsible for the preparation of the Patriots game balls, John
Jastremski. In a number of those text messages, McNally and Jastremski
discussed the air pressure of Patriots game balls, Tom Brady‟s unhappiness with
the inflation level of Patriots game balls, Jastremski‟s plan to provide McNally
with a “needle” for use by McNally, and McNally‟s requests for “cash” and
sneakers together with the “needle” to be provided by Jastremski. A sports ball
inflation needle is a device that can be used to inflate a football (if attached to an
air pump) or release air from a football (if inserted alone into a ball)".


To me, this is the key to the report. But if you are so fixated by the discussions of the psi Exponent report, here is a nice tidbit from the Exponent Report. It explains why the comparison you made on simple pressure drop is not the way to go:

"For example, using the most likely pressure and temperature values for the Patriots game balls
on the day of the AFC Championship Game (i.e., a starting pressure of 12.5 psig, a starting
temperature of between 67 and 71°F and a final temperature of 48°F prior to the balls being
taken back into the Officials Locker Room), these equations predict that the Patriots balls should
have measured between 11.52 and 11.32 psig at the end of the first half, just before they were
brought back into the Officials Locker Room. Most of the individual Patriots measurements recorded
at halftime, however, were lower than the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law. Once the game
day measurements are converted into their corresponding Master Gauge pressures (in order to
provide for a direct comparison with the results predicted by the calculations), the measurements for
all but three of the footballs, as measured by both gauges, were lower than the range predicted by
the Ideal Gas Law."

BizzyC

TBH as a Pats fan looking at the report, it's hard to take it very seriously as an issue, but by the letter of the law there was some stuff done against rules.

The PSI in the footballs used was not an issue, they were within the acceptable range of the NFL and that in itself means that Brady wasn't provided with an unfair advantage over the opposing QB. I think this is why some fans don't consider it as "cheating".

However, once the refs check the footballs, they can't be adjusted and there is some evidence to suggest they were.

Personally, I see it as more of a breach of procedure than cheating.
I don't see it diminishing Brady's legacy, cause in the end of the day he was throwing balls that were inside the NFL's acceptable range.

Knex*

BizzyC wrote: »

TBH as a Pats fan looking at the report, it's hard to take it very seriously as an issue, but by the letter of the law there was some stuff done against rules.

The PSI in the footballs used was not an issue, they were clearly within the acceptable range of the NFL and that in itself means that Brady wasn't provided with an unfair advantage over the opposing QB. I think this is why some fans don't consider it as "cheating".

However, once the refs check the footballs, they can't be adjusted and there is some evidence to suggest they were.

Personally, I see it as more of a breach of procedure than cheating.
I don't see it diminishing Brady's legacy, cause in the end of the day he was throwing balls that were inside the NFL's acceptable range.

Yeah, I don't really see it as a big deal at all, but maybe I'm naive as to how much of an advantage he could possible have gotten from it. Its not like he likes throwing half pumped footballs and was able to get them deflated my a large margin.

I'd see it less of an offence than the Falcons pumping on crowd noise, which was another thing that I thought was blown out of proportion, for example.

You still need the skill to be able to throw the damn ball, at the end of the day. Plus the game was a washout.

D9Male

This student from MIT seems to have cherry picked aspects of the report and ignored others.

poldebruin

BizzyC wrote: »

Personally, I see it as more of a breach of procedure than cheating.
I don't see it diminishing Brady's legacy, cause in the end of the day he was throwing balls that were inside the NFL's acceptable range.

unfortunately:
The report said all 11 of the Patriots' game balls, when re-tested at halftime, were below the minimum level specified by NFL rules of 12.5 psi. The four Colts game balls that were re-tested were between 12.5 and 13.5 psi, so they were within the rules.


For me the actual deflated footballs are neither here nor there. Brady has shown he is a spectacular QB, and tore up a historically great Seattle Defence in the Superbowl, with what we all know were properly inflated footballs.

The issue for me, is the planning to circumvent the rules, the conspiracy to make all this happen, the trainers and signed footballs....and for what....Brady really did not need to get involved in any of this.

I did read an interesting article, that while not suggesting it was commonplace, wondered how many other teams would stand up to the scrutiny of a deflategate-type investigation.

D9Male

Yes a couple of things did surprise me.

Would a player really be expected to hand over his mobile and email records in such an investigation?

I was also surprised that the Patriots didn't co-operate more fully. I wonder if they know it will just be a fine and maybe a 1-2 game ban for Brady.

eagle eye

The measurements and what is expected. This is all taken from the report. The expected drop by halftime should be in the 1.13 region for a ball that started at 12.5.

helimachoptor

D9Male wrote: »

Yes a couple of things did surprise me.

Would a player really be expected to hand over his mobile and email records in such an investigation?

I was also surprised that the Patriots didn't co-operate more fully. I wonder if they know it will just be a fine and maybe a 1-2 game ban for Brady.

if.. and this relates to Irish law, the Pats are paying his phone bill, then it would be company property and the NFL could have access to it.

Only way to be sure is to go to court which i doubt they do

JCTO

D9Male wrote: »

Have you read the report, eagle eye? And assuming you have, why are your eyes drawn to the psi figures rather than this?"

Have you read the report all 300+ pages of it? Out of curiosity? I highly doubt anyone on here actually has including myself and most have just pulled out the information the media has given us from it.

What is clear here 2 employees admitted via text they were deflating footballs. Apparently this implicates Tom Brady.

The report actually concluded also that the Organisation including Bob and Bill had no idea it was going on and the report says they were not at fault. Anyone who believes the Pats or Bill will see punishment are wrong and you will be waiting a long time for it.

Next on to Tom Brady. If he had a hand in it he is no different to any other QB as in fact himself and Peyton Manning brought in the rule back in 2006 that allows QBs get game balls ready before games. If he 100% positively wanted the balls below the required PSI he then 100% "Cheated". Having said that there is no proof saying he asked for that or wanted that. What we get is "He Probably had some Involvement". So will the league ban him. I highly doubt it. Will it ruin his legacy? No it wont. Anyone who thinks so is plain mad.

As for the 2 employees yes they were working for the organisation and they got caught red handed due to their own stupidity really. They will most likely get sacked if they haven't already.

If you want to call us Cheats go for it. The report does and doesn't basically call the Pats cheats so you are within your rights to do so. Do I care not really at this point water off a ducks back.

As for Tom Bradys phone he was not required by law to hand it over as it belongs to him. And rightly so he didn't hand it over. I wouldn't let my personal information anywhere near the NFL considering the do a bad job stopping leaks.

D9Male

JCTO wrote: »

Have you read the report all 300+ pages of it? Out of curiosity? I highly doubt anyone on here actually has including myself and most have just pulled out the information the media has given us from it.

I read most of the actual Wells report (I admit to skimming some of the boring bits, but I reckon I read well over 80% of that section). It is only 140 pages.

On the Exponent Report, I skimmed that for the interesting bits. That is very heavy going, and you would want to have an interest in science or sleep to willingly read that.

I agree with most of the rest of your post. I would quibble with the legacy piece. It won't ruin it but it will tarnish it. Except with people who open up a 300 page report and just search for pieces that may cast doubt over the findings.

JCTO

D9Male wrote: »

I agree with most of the rest of your post. I would quibble with the legacy piece. It won't ruin it but it will tarnish it. Except with people who open up a 300 page report and just search for pieces that may cast doubt over the findings.

The only people who will see his career or legacy tarnished are those who are just looking for a story or those who don't like him though. In the football world for the most part the majority of his fellow peers could care less about this report I bet you especially his fellow QBs. The reason is because the majority if not all mess with footballs before games. Whether they all keep them within the rules of the game that is another days argument.

He beat the Seahawks defense with regular "un-tampered" footballs so there is little doubt of his need for soft footballs. Anyone is stuck to the notion Tom Brady needs to cheat needs to re-think that notion. If he did deflate footballs it was more for personal preference like all QBs do. The question is here did he actually want them below the required PSI.

poldebruin

JCTO wrote: »

As for Tom Bradys phone he was not required by law to hand it over as it belongs to him. And rightly so he didn't hand it over. I wouldn't let my personal information anywhere near the NFL considering the do a bad job stopping leaks.

You're right about that, I wouldn't trust them with any of my sensitive information considering their track record with leaks.

That said, it might be the very thing the NFL can use to justify a harsh penalty. They could argue they found no "Smoking Gun", but that the contents of the phone and email might have provided one. The lack of cooperation in that regard will only stand Brady in bad stead.

bruschi

admittedly, I havent read any of the report bar some snippets, and I have read very few reports on this outcome. Havent been online much lately to be honest, so havent had a chance to go through the whole thing. A few things puzzle me about the investigation though.

It seems they knew this was an issue prior to the Colts game? If so, the NFL were prepared to let a team be "cheated" just to prove a point? Thats disgraceful, if indeed is the case.

Did the Patriots footballs deflate at the same rate as the Colts balls which are also reportedly deflated?

They have texts about the ball handlers talking about deflating the footballs, but is it a case of them deflating them before or after the ref inspection? How is it Walt Anderson said he never had them disappear in 19 years or whatever, so how was it this was a constant thing? He also reffed 2 games for the Pats last season.

there does seem to be some sort of "illegal" handling of the footballs, and for that, if it is indeed the case, it would be really dumb from Brady or whoever else may have been involved. But the texts from the ball assistants seem to say they would over inflate the balls, so I just dont know how they could be doing all this after the ref inspection.Is it a case where, like Aaron Rodgers said, they put in the balls to suit the QB best, and hope the refs dont notice? Which isnt cheating, but altering after the inspection most clearly is.

at the end of it all, it is really a very minor thing in the scheme of things, and has got way more air time than it deserves. The NFL when they were aware of it should have just told them to cop on, and then change protocols so it couldnt happen again.

JCTO

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The Pats got caught - again - simple as.

I love you posts as if the Denver Broncos sh1t doesn't stink either. What is sad though most other guys who came on here actually give their opinion and some excellent posts. You? All you can do is what we expect from you.

But hey let's educate folk on the Broncos shall we? You on previous occasions always bang on that Pats fans stick to the line that "Every Other Team does it" which for a lot of things is true. Remember spygate? Of course you do. Do you also remember this:

he NFL investigation determined Steve Scarnecchia took a six-minute video of the walkthrough and presented it that day to McDaniels. The coach declined to view it. Still, the NFL fined both the coach and team because the matter was not promptly reported, as required by the league.

Now the Broncos said he acted on his own and all the NFL did was fine Josh McDaniels. But where was the Spygate nonsense the Pats fans put up with?

Patriots: Spygate filmed a game from the wrong location on the field. Filming games is not against the rules but the location of where you do so is. Had he been no more than 10 yards away from his caught location Spygate would never have happened.

Broncos: Filmed a private walkthrough which is completely against NFL rules. It doesn't matter where you stand. Of course the Broncos fed the same BS to the NFL that the Patriots did and got away with it lightly. In fact it barely graced our screens at the time.

On to more goodness:

- 11 players fined or suspended for PED use since 2003
- Remember Salarycapgate? Of course you do. You call yourself a true Broncos fan so you should know all about it. for those interested you can read all about it here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1883127

On a side note the late Al Davis believed this helped the Broncos win a bowl.

- 3 Offensive linemen caught in the late 90's using a slippy substance on their arms. Denied by coaches but please coaches know what their players did.

There is more but I could not be arsed to post it. Just remember JRG your team has cheated also.

JCTO

poldebruin wrote: »

You're right about that, I wouldn't trust them with any of my sensitive information considering their track record with leaks.

That said, it might be the very thing the NFL can use to justify a harsh penalty. They could argue they found no "Smoking Gun", but that the contents of the phone and email might have provided one. The lack of cooperation in that regard will only stand Brady in bad stead.

I doubt it. I did read a report yesterday and for the life of me can't remember which one that said they had no right to demand players personal property and all they can do is ask and the player can say no. He also stated that if Tom Brady is fined or punished for not handing over his phone he would have a case for suing the NFL. Having said that if the NFL do fine or suspend him they will leave that part about his phone out anyways and find some other reason.

If they take action against him it will be a fine at most. The NFL are not going to ban Tom Brady I just can't see it.

eagle eye

JCTO wrote: »

I doubt it. I did read a report yesterday and for the life of me can't remember which one that said they had no right to demand players personal property and all they can do is ask and the player can say no. He also stated that if Tom Brady is fined or punished for not handing over his phone he would have a case for suing the NFL. Having said that if the NFL do fine or suspend him they will leave that part about his phone out anyways and find some other reason.

If they take action against him it will be a fine at most. The NFL are not going to ban Tom Brady I just can't see it.

The NFLPA ordered the players not to discuss the inflategate thing with anybody.

Player's union would go hard on the NFL if they demanded to look at a player's personal property. No way it was ever going to happen.

UnitedIrishman

One part of the report I don't get is the bit about Brady reaching the passing yards milestone and Jamarski (sp?) getting the ball and Brady lying about the one that's in the trophy room to fans - the only possible reason that is in there is to paint Brady in a bad light. Because they've proven far before that that the two had contact and gotten memorabilia so why the need to include it?

Oat23

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

http://yourteamcheats.com/

Look at that, at least Denver have a higher score than New England in something this year.

They only gave George Halas a point for training a dog to run onto the field if he was out of timeouts and needed one? ONE POINT? That's genius! It should be 5 at least. If he trained the dog to count the timeouts himself and know when we needed one, that is 10 points.

Also, nice burn.

JCTO

Tom Brady's agent Don Yee statement:

Statement from Tom Brady's agent, Don Yee:

"The Wells report, with all due respect, is a significant and terrible disappointment. It’s omission of key facts and lines of inquiry suggest the investigators reached a conclusion first, and then determined so-called facts later. One fact alone taints this entire report. What does it say about the league office’s protocols and ethics when it allows one team to tip it off to an issue prior to a championship game, and no league officials or game officials notified the Patriots of the same issue prior to the game? This suggests it may be more probable than not that the league cooperated with the Colts in perpetrating a sting operation.

The Wells report buries this issue in a footnote on page 46 without any further elaboration. The league is a significant client of the investigators' law firm; it appears to be a rich source of billings and media exposure based on content in the law firm's website. This was not an independent investigation and the contents of the report bear that out – all one has to do is read closely and critically, as opposed to simply reading headlines. The investigators' assumptions and inferences are easily debunked or subject to multiple interpretations. Much of the report’s vulnerabilities are buried in the footnotes, which is a common legal writing tactic. It is a sad day for the league as it has abdicated the resolution of football-specific issues to people who don’t understand the context or culture of the sport. I was physically present for my client’s interview.

I have verbatim notes of the interview. Tom made himself available for nearly an entire day and patiently answered every question. It was clear to me the investigators had limited understanding of professional football. For reasons unknown, the Wells report omitted nearly all of Tom’s testimony, most of which was critical because it would have provided this report with the context that it lacks. Mr. Wells promised back in January to share the results of this investigation publicly, so why not follow through and make public all of the information gathered and let the public draw its own conclusions? This report contains significant and tragic flaws, and it is common knowledge in the legal industry that reports like this generally are written for the benefit of the purchaser."

Jolly Red Giant

JCTO wrote: »

But hey let's educate folk on the Broncos shall we? You on previous occasions always bang on that Pats fans stick to the line that "Every Other Team does it" which for a lot of things is true. Remember spygate? Of course you do. Do you also remember this:

Now the Broncos said he acted on his own and all the NFL did was fine Josh McDaniels. But where was the Spygate nonsense the Pats fans put up with?

I love the effort by the Pats fans to deflect from the latest findings of cheating.

As for the Broncos spygate - the fact that the spying was carried out by Josh McDaniels who copied his mentor in New England by bringing the 'Patriot Way' to Denver - is completely lost on Pats fans.

Also ignored is the fact that McDs spygate was ultimately the reason why he was sacked in Denver. Yet in New England the spygate master remains at the helm and now has his old sidekick back at his heels learning new ways of cheating.

poldebruin has been right on the money on this issue.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

I love the effort by the Pats fans to deflect from the latest findings of cheating.

As if you are mister objective on the subject, the guy who is banned from the Pats thread.
Jezz, another McDaniels rant.

BizzyC

I'll just leave this here....
http://yourteamcheats.com/