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Pats accused of under inflating game balls against the Colts (MOD WARNING #457)
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Jesus. I woke up and seen Brady's 4 game ban, I thought it was harsh but I suppose you could see where they are coming from.
However, how on earth are they being stripped of the two draft picks? And especially next year's number one?!? Is there any precedence for a player cheating and the whole organisation being punished to this end? The two employees are very, very minor employees. I genuinely think they've done this as a **** you to Kraft after his statement 4 months ago.0 -
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Hard to see sense compared to some other punishments0 -
Brady's suspension is more comparable to a PED's suspension, than Ray Rice's or Peterson, or any like that.
He's being suspended for cheating in the eyes of the NFL.
Its the draft picks that I don't get. Seahawks didn't get deducted draft picks when they had a rake of players pick up suspensions for PEDs, or any other team for that matter.
I stated yesterday how just on draft picks alone, this is 28 times the punishment that the Falcons received for pumping in crowd noise. That's ridiculous. However, I'm not so sure that the Pats will get very far with their appeal, such is the angle they're going with.
NFL will not likely back down a whole pile when bringing fire with fire.
Yep you are exactly right. I'd be amazed if the Patriots actually kick up a massive stinker and "come after" the NFL. Whatever about the somewhat inconclusive evidence, it's pretty clear that the balls were tampered with and because of that, they broke the rules. There is no way that the equipment guys would have done any of this without TB being in the know either so people can stop thinking that he's innocent in all of this.
What makes matters worse is that the ball pressure was brought down to the level that it is at the moment at the behest of Brady and Manning so the fact that they went below that again must have really pissed of the NFL.
I agree that the crime in comparison to other offences does seem harsh, but as KNEX says, it's more in the line of a PED offence. The extra draft picks and the huge fine I think, stems from the fact that Bellicheck and Kraft rubbed the league up the wrong way with some of their comments and the fact that the Patriots didnt exactly co-operate fully when the league was conducting its investigation. Brady refused to hand over his phone (the players union did suggest that he didnt) and he also didnt meet with the investigators on a numerous occassions citing "previous appointments" that could not be changed.
Quite simply, I think the NFL have made an example of the Patriots on the back of some of their other crimes in the past. I am in no way saying that that is ok or fair, I just think that's what has happened and the punishment that they have handed out leaves everybody in no doubt of who's in charge here and there is also a built in punishment to scare them from any other "on the line" advantage that Bellicheck might scheme up in the future.0 -
Lets be clear here. Tom Brady is not being punished for cheating in this. He is being punished more for not handing over his private phone and emails and not complying fully with an investigation but they just throw in the 'more probable than not' being aware of possible football deflation.
This suspension will not happen because the NFLPA will have it thrown out. The NFL, and a suspect law firm, have no right to Tom Brady's personal phone or emails and levying a punishment against him for not handing them over is outrageous.0 -
Its more probably than not that Tom Brady is being punished for cheating.0
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Would anyone hand over their personal phone in this situation? Even if completely innocent? I definitely wouldn't.0
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Would anyone hand over their personal phone in this situation? Even if completely innocent? I definitely wouldn't.
Goodell and all of league office did during the ray rice investigation. So maybe the league felt that why shouldn't Tom Brady when the commissioner himself did and they weren't even the ones who did what ray rice.
And no I wouldn't if it was a personal phone. A work phone I suppose that's different.0 -
Three things I was thinking about this morning on this.
1. If it's not filmed already, will the Patriots refuse to do this years America's Game Doc?
2. Fair play to Robert Kraft going HAM at Goodell and the NFL about this. Goodell won't have many owners in his corner when it's all said and done I'd figure.
3. Tom Brady's agent, sting operation. Give over, won't be reading anymore drivel from him. Brady should be using a PR company. This chap was the same agent for Sean Payton during bounty game and came across poorly then also.0 -
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So let's just get this right.
Tom Brady gets a four game suspension for it being 'more probable than not' that he knew about something that might have happened.
Ray Rice got two games initially for knocking his wife out with a punch.Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »ray rice got suspended indefinitely
There is a lot of discussion here around this issue of Ray Rice. Rice got suspended for two games initially. Then when the further tape came out of showing what happened in the elevator it was changed to 'indefinitely' and Goodell admitted he had made a mistake. As a background to this there was also much public outcry against the initial two game suspension. Women's groups showed up at NFL games in protest.
But US labour laws state that no one can be punished twice - the initial decision/punishment by an employer has to be final - so on appeal the 'indefinitely' was overturned and he was free to re-join the league as of Dec 1st 2014. No one has picked him up though. His career is over.0 -
There is a lot of discussion here around this issue of Ray Rice. Rice got suspended for two games initially. Then when the further tape came out of showing what happened in the elevator it was changed to 'indefinitely' and Goodell admitted he had made a mistake. As a background to this there was also much public outcry against the initial two game suspension. Women's groups showed up at NFL games in protest.
But US labour laws state that no one can be punished twice - the initial decision/punishment by an employer has to be final - so on appeal the 'indefinitely' was overturned and he was free to re-join the league as of Dec 1st 2014. No one has picked him up though. His career is over.
yes but because goodell decided 2 games was not enough and tried to extend it it makes no sense to reference it in this case 2 games was a mistake everyones admited/agreed on that0 -
I'd expect the NFLPA to back Brady on this.
There's no actual evidence to back a suspension, it seems to me like the league is taking a risk legally by levying such heavy penalties without anything solid to back it.0 -
Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »yes but because goodell decided 2 games was not enough and tried to extend it it makes no sense to reference it in this case 2 games was a mistake everyones admited/agreed on that
I agree - that's the point I am making. It was a mistake [Goodell admitted this] but the mistake could not be overturned. So I would guess that Goodell was determined not to repeat this mistake and take more punitive action in Brady's case.0 -
Rice was suspended for a criminal act outside the game. It's arguable whether the NFL should even be getting involved in cases like that. But if they choose to, it's completely different from suspect cheating within the game itself. Comparisons between the two punishments are stupid. I don't get the conspiracy that Brady 'conveniently' returns on prime time against the Colts. The Cowboys game just a week previous is a far bigger draw for starters. Personal opinion is the punishment looks very excessive and the organisation as a whole should take all the brunt, rather than specific employees (Brady)0
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Three things I was thinking about this morning on this.
1. If it's not filmed already, will the Patriots refuse to do this years America's Game Doc?
2. Fair play to Robert Kraft going HAM at Goodell and the NFL about this. Goodell won't have many owners in his corner when it's all said and done I'd figure.
3. Tom Brady's agent, sting operation. Give over, won't be reading anymore drivel from him. Brady should be using a PR company. This chap was the same agent for Sean Payton during bounty game and came across poorly then also.
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/05/11/dean-blandino-nfls-officiating-vp-lied-about-deflategate-knowledge/Dean Blandino wrote:“And then there was an issue that was brought up during the first half,” Blandino said. “A football came into question, then the decision was made to test them at halftime. There’s an investigation going on, I can’t get into too many specifics but really that’s the chain of events that occurred.”Wells Report wrote:In response to the pre-game concerns raised by the
Colts, NFL Football Operations staff had notified the head of the NFL Officiating Department, Dean Blandino, and a senior officiating supervisor who would be attending the game, Alberto Riveron. During a pre-game conversation concerning various game-day topics, Riveron told referee Walt Anderson that a concern had been raised about the air pressure of the game balls. Anderson told Riveron that he would be sure to follow his usual ball inspection procedure to ensure that the balls were properly inflated0 -
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AbusesToilets wrote: »Have you any response to the many posts and articles showing the failings of the report?
Loads. Read from last week.0 -
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AbusesToilets wrote: »So you are happy to accept the findings of a report that has been shown to be deficient from a the stand point of scientific rigor and openly admits its findings are based off of assumptions?
You could, you know, just read the posts.
Did you expect scientific rigour from the NFL? This is a Kangaroo court, just like the FA when they suspended Suarez for Racial Abuse, or let Terry off for similar. They don't need scientific evidence. And the FA cases were for actual abuse, something far less trivial than deflating a football. Although the latter is seen as tampering with the "foundations and integrity of the game" more, for whatever reason.
They do, however, have evidence of footballs being tampered with after the refs assessed them, and they do have correspondence records that point heavily towards two Pats staff who were working under the knowledge of Brady, or even the instruction of Brady.
I believe Brady deserved punishment, but I had been thinking more in terms of a fine/slap on wrists type thing as I don't see the deflating matter as much of an issue. I can see why they came to four games though if they consider it gaining an advantage in a similar fashion to PEDs.
Whatever about the suspension, the draft picks are a joke.
The constant deflecting from a minority of Pats fans that Brady did nothing and deserves to be let off completely is partially amusing, partially nauseating to me.0 -
The fact is that there is no conclusive proof but the facts surrounding the incident would point to some wrongdoing. Also don't the Pats have a ridiculous fumble rate per carry. There is more that should be investigated about this.0
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The constant deflecting from a minority of Pats fans that Brady did nothing and deserves to be let off completely is partially amusing, partially nauseating to me.
I am a Colts fan and could you show me the actual proof/ indisputable evidence of what he did? Because I've looked and it certainly ain't in the Wells report.
All I saw was speculative probabilities or in other words - horse shít. Meanwhile half the NFL are most likely taking PEDs & anabolic steroids, with another significant amount who probably smok pot. So what about these real cheats? You know, the performance enhancers out there? Nah, the league couldn't clamp down on the real cheats, because you probably wouldn't be able to fill any roster across the league if they did. Then the league office tries to speak about 'integrity'. It's nothing more than laughable hypocrisy from a bunch of clowns.0 -
Would anyone hand over their personal phone in this situation? Even if completely innocent? I definitely wouldn't.
The Pats kicker Stephen Gostkowski refused to had over his phone and there wasn't a peep from the NFL about it. And with all the inaccurate leaks before the Superbowl, that were coming from the league office. Who in their right mind would have over a personal phone to them.
My brother is a Pats fan and we regularly have the natural bit of rival banter. But he predicted the assault of Brady's rep and the OTT punishment months ago. One of the reasons he saw it coming - the amount of guys in the NFL league office with Jets connection who probably hated the Pats. Now I thought he was having a tin foil hat moment. But when I see the speculative nonsense in the Wells report and the ridiculous punishment, I'm beginning to think he's been right all along.0 -
I thought it was always likely that the Patriots would take a significant hit even though the owner/HC weren't implicated - in the end it's the organisation who gains the advantage and it's that organisation that is ultimately responsible for their employees' actions.
I did think some of the people here were being a bit wishful thinking this would only be a slap on the wrists - the NFL don't really deal in slaps on the wrist (unless you're Ray Rice, and even then..) - and this was, no matters how ridiculously pointless it was, systematic cheating.
And lads, if the Patriots weren't cheating they couldn't have been caught - blame your own people before you start blaming the Colts or the NFL or anyone else.0 -
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Also don't the Pats have a ridiculous fumble rate per carry. There is more that should be investigated about this.
Yes - a civil engineer called Warren Sharp pointed out the significance of the Pat's low fumble rate. Here is a January commentary:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflate-gate-triggers-stat-spat-as-analysts-attempt-to-solve-why-patriots-don-t-fumble-003107565-nfl.htmlSharp’s idea was to look at fumbles. That led him to a more refined topic: how well the Patriots held onto the ball both before and after the 2006 season, which happened to be the year Brady and Peyton Manning pushed for a rule change which allowed each team to provide their own footballs for games.
“Something significant changed from 2006 to 2007 that allowed them to retain the football,” Sharp said by phone Tuesday, “and that continues today.”
According to Sharp’s calculations, the Patriots’ fumble rate was 42 touches per fumble from 2000 through 2006. That was about the league average. Since 2007, however, that rate has dropped dramatically, to 74 touches per fumble. Over that time, the Pats are the best team in the NFL at holding onto the ball, even including dome teams.
“Based upon the data we’ve collected and the probabilities, it definitely is extremely unlikely that their ability to hold onto the football would change so much and be as far away from the rest of the NFL,” Sharp said. “It’s extremely unlikely.”0 -
The fact is that there is no conclusive proof but the facts surrounding the incident would point to some wrongdoing. Also don't the Pats have a ridiculous fumble rate per carry. There is more that should be investigated about this.Yes - a civil engineer called Warren Sharp pointed out the significance of the Pat's low fumble rate. Here is a January commentary:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflate-gate-triggers-stat-spat-as-analysts-attempt-to-solve-why-patriots-don-t-fumble-003107565-nfl.html
seriously the greatest load of rubbish I ever saw. The patriots do not have or never had any real stand out ball carrier since Corey Dillon. Their priority is only that the player does not fumble. If you want evidence of this, go look through the Pats thread or do a search on Steven Ridley benched. Every time he fumbled, and I'm pretty sure it is very close to 100% of the time, he was benched and that was his last touch of the game. So whenever he fumbled, he was out. That to me, is far more of a reason they dont have high fumble stats.I thought it was always likely that the Patriots would take a significant hit even though the owner/HC weren't implicated - in the end it's the organisation who gains the advantage and it's that organisation that is ultimately responsible for their employees' actions.
I did think some of the people here were being a bit wishful thinking this would only be a slap on the wrists - the NFL don't really deal in slaps on the wrist (unless you're Ray Rice, and even then..) - and this was, no matters how ridiculously pointless it was, systematic cheating.
And lads, if the Patriots weren't cheating they couldn't have been caught - blame your own people before you start blaming the Colts or the NFL or anyone else.
who from the Patriots on here is blaming the colts? And who on here, going back from the start, said that the Patriots were completely blameless? This has been thrown around here before that the Pats fans here are not accepting the responsibility of the actions, that is far from true. But at the same time, as JCTO said previously, do you expect Pats fans to be quiet over the issue?
Do you expect them to say nothing about an NFL record team fine despite the report exonerating the franchise? Do you expect them to say nothing about a report that has major, major flaws in it? Do you expect them to say nothing about the NFL, considering the head of refereeing said he had no knowledge of this prior to the game, yet he is named in the report as having received an email about it?
Pretty much any pats fan on here has already said if they are guilty then they should face the punishment. I dont believe there is enough in that report to be giving out such punishments. The report has a lot of flaky items that would be easily challenged. I understand the NFL is not a court of law, and they dont need to have a burden of proof. But they should have had something more than this. I mean, they dont even know which gauge they used before the game, and the half time stats of the records show that there was serious discrepancies between them. They dont even have the record of the pre game levels. Surely you need to be 100% sure that you have those to prove that the balls were deflated. You need a starting point, and their starting point is extremely shaky.
Based on the texts and the rumours or whatever, there is certainly a serious air of suspicion over the actions of the Patriots on this. But all of this could have been easily sorted with Blandino, having received an email himself, ringing the Pats and saying, "hey, there are rumours you are doing something with your balls, cut it out, we're watching you", and the whole thing would have been resolved without any of this overplayed drama. The fact that the NFL were happy to let the Patriots go out, and try catch them out at half time says a lot about their integrity too.
I also cant get my head around the NFL ruling that has the minimum fine set at €25k for this type of incident, ie the rule book sees this as a very minor offence, yet they come out and make this the biggest violation in NFL history.
As I said, there is certainly a massive cloud of suspicion, and chances are something was going on, but I dont think they had enough from the report to go as big as they did with it.0 -
It's impossible to really investigate any of this but the NFL must believe that there is serious wrongdoing here. It'll be interesting the see what the Patriots end up doing here because both sides could go a long way to discredit each other and you have to wonder is that a battle that the Pats can win.
It's interesting everything has come under the spotlight now too. For example Benjarvus Green-Ellis had no fumbles as a Patriot over 4 years. He then fumbled 5 times in 2 years as a Bengal. Now that could be a complete coincidence but unless the Patriots are able to clear their name here it really does make you question about what advantages did they have by using a slightly deflated ball.0 -
Brady's agent called the Pats being caught red-handed in the AFC championship game a sting operation by the Colts and the NFL, Bruschi.
There's lots of dancing around the frayed edges of the report but little talk of video of the ball boy taking the balls into a bathroom for a minute before the game and after the last referees' inspection. FFS one of their nicknames was 'The Deflator'. Look, it's so obvious the Patriots cheated that it's hard to take any Pats fan who doesn't accept that much seriously. The $1m fine and the draft picks are for the organisation; there's feck all chance of those being over-turned no matter how much money Kraft pours into lawyers' pockets.
Brady on the other hand looks guilty by association and by action during the investigation. Not fully co-operating with the NFL investigation was always going to end in a suspension for Brady when they had pretty clear evidence of the cheating itself. If he'd have been more forthcoming the suspension may have been shorter but he seems to have went for the hail mary, that is to say betting the NFL couldn't pin the intentional deflating of the balls on the Patriots. It was maybe Brady's only blown call all season.
The NFL has always been heavy-handed so I don't see this as being particularly unfair in the context of the league. They're sending out a message that this won't be tolerated, in the end that will be a good outcome for the sport. I don't think the wilful ignoring of the rule-breaking you're (Bruschi) suggesting - the NFL informally warning the Pats they know what they're up to - would have been fair to the rest of the league or have stopped this situation arising again somewhere else in the future.0 -
I think the biggest issue the NFL have with Brady is the cover up attempt. His interview pre Super Bowl etc, and not complying with their investigation.
If he had just come out and said, "ha, you got me!", similar to the Falcons, the whole thing might have blown over by now even. Hard to tell, though.0 -
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I think the biggest issue the NFL have with Brady is the cover up attempt. His interview pre Super Bowl etc, and not complying with their investigation.
If he had just come out and said, "ha, you got me!", similar to the Falcons, the whole thing might have blown over by now even. Hard to tell, though.
Honestly the Patriots are not well liked in the league so they'd still have got it in the neck a bit, but it certainly wouldn't have blown up into what it has post-report.
It's the seemingly unrepentant attempt to get away with it after the fact by the Patriots that will have been disconcerting for the NFL.0 -
You could, you know, just read the posts.
Did you expect scientific rigour from the NFL? This is a Kangaroo court, just like the FA when they suspended Suarez for Racial Abuse, or let Terry off for similar. They don't need scientific evidence. And the FA cases were for actual abuse, something far less trivial than deflating a football. Although the latter is seen as tampering with the "foundations and integrity of the game" more, for whatever reason.
They do, however, have evidence of footballs being tampered with after the refs assessed them, and they do have correspondence records that point heavily towards two Pats staff who were working under the knowledge of Brady, or even the instruction of Brady.
I believe Brady deserved punishment, but I had been thinking more in terms of a fine/slap on wrists type thing as I don't see the deflating matter as much of an issue. I can see why they came to four games though if they consider it gaining an advantage in a similar fashion to PEDs.
Whatever about the suspension, the draft picks are a joke.
The constant deflecting from a minority of Pats fans that Brady did nothing and deserves to be let off completely is partially amusing, partially nauseating to me.
They don't, that's the whole ****ing point. There is evidence of tampering, so the central reason for the report vanishes. Brady can't lie about something that didn't happen.I think the biggest issue the NFL have with Brady is the cover up attempt. His interview pre Super Bowl etc, and not complying with their investigation.
Again, bull****. Brady's agent has detailed the extensive cooperation he had with the investigators. There was no obligation to let the NFL take his phone and would have run foul of the NFLPA had he done so.
Keep banging on that drum that he cheated and lied, maybe you'll manage to shake some proof out of it.0 -
Brady's agent called the Pats being caught red-handed in the AFC championship game a sting operation by the Colts and the NFL, Bruschi.
sort of, and even if so, thats not waht you wrote. you made it out like you were discussing Patriots fans who participate on this board.There's lots of dancing around the frayed edges of the report but little talk of video of the ball boy taking the balls into a bathroom for a minute before the game and after the last referees' inspection. FFS one of their nicknames was 'The Deflator'. Look, it's so obvious the Patriots cheated that it's hard to take any Pats fan who doesn't accept that much seriously. The $1m fine and the draft picks are for the organisation; there's feck all chance of those being over-turned no matter how much money Kraft pours into lawyers' pockets.Wells Report wrote:We do not believe that the evidence establishes that any other Patriots personnel participated in or had knowledge of the violation of the Playing rules or the deliberate effort to circumvent the rules described in this Report. In particular, we do not believe there was any wrongdoing or knowledge of wrongdoing by Patriots ownership, Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick or any other Patriots coach in the matters investigated. We also do not believe there
was any wrongdoing or knowledge of wrongdoing by Patriots Head Equipment Manager Dave Schoenfeld.
and as others have pointed out, it looks like the NFL are treating this like a drug suspension, ie a player gaining an advantage illegally. So how does the team get the biggest fine and 2 draft pick losses? It is completely disproportionate. In that case, is there any repercussions on teams who have multiple drug abusers? how is that the franchise can be excused, yet be punished? Why is this the exception to the rule?Brady on the other hand looks guilty by association and by action during the investigation. Not fully co-operating with the NFL investigation was always going to end in a suspension for Brady when they had pretty clear evidence of the cheating itself. If he'd have been more forthcoming the suspension may have been shorter but he seems to have went for the hail mary, that is to say betting the NFL couldn't pin the intentional deflating of the balls on the Patriots. It was maybe Brady's only blown call all season.
The NFL has always been heavy-handed so I don't see this as being particularly unfair in the context of the league. They're sending out a message that this won't be tolerated, in the end that will be a good outcome for the sport.
If you really believe that this is the only incident of something like this happening, then I'm not sure who to take seriously too. And again, this is not to deflect, I have already said the whole incident looks more than suspicious, but if you think the report has "pretty clear evidence" then I'm not sure what that pretty clear evidence is. I fully believe that there was not enough evidence to be as heavy handed as they were. I'm not even sure a suspension could have been handed out under normal circumstances, but this has really been a trial by public and media. The actions of the NFL in all of this have been particularly poor. All the leaks, and mainly all the misinformed and incorrect leaks and the hap hazard way they went about it all is really poor.
edit - to add in your own edit:I don't think the wilful ignoring of the rule-breaking you're (Bruschi) suggesting - the NFL informally warning the Pats they know what they're up to - would have been fair to the rest of the league or have stopped this situation arising again somewhere else in the future.
the NFL were warned by Griggs of the Colts. Then it came out that they still had deflated footballs. How is that fair on the Colts in the Championship game? He had, what would now seem to be, a legitimate concern, and wanted teams at a level playing field. What he got was his message was taken on, but they did nothing about it other than catch the Patriots out. If they were really about integrity, would it not be better to ensure that it didnt happen in the first place? and surely then the NFL would have had far more reason if it happened in future to come out and say " we knew, we warned them, but they still did it" and thus have absolutely no comeback on the Patriots.
the whole thing is an utter mess, and regardless of if anyone thinks the Patriots are guilty or not, it was handled really, really badly by the NFL.0 -
Where did I say it's likely the only case? The way these things work is that the first team caught gets hit with draconian fines and penalties so the rest quitely clean up their act to avoid the same punishments. That's not just the NFL, that's life in general.
You either have to be smart enough or lucky enough not to get caught or not do it in the first place. I can't have much sympathy for someone or some team caught cheating just because others probably have done it too.0 -
AbusesToilets wrote: »They don't, that's the whole ****ing point. There is evidence of tampering, so the central reason for the report vanishes. Brady can't lie about something that didn't happen.
Again, bull****. Brady's agent has detailed the extensive cooperation he had with the investigators. There was no obligation to let the NFL take his phone and would have run foul of the NFLPA had he done so.
Keep banging on that drum that he cheated and lied, maybe you'll manage to shake some proof out of it.
So why have the Patriots suspended John Jastremski and James McNally indefinitely? If they really believe they did nothing wrong, and are rallying around Brady, should they not rally around those two employees as well?
I've said countless times that I don't think the deflating issue was such a big deal and that the punishment is ridiculous, but you don't get that sort of punishment for nothing.
You're getting so aggressive in your defence when the vast majority of fans would agree that the Patriots tampered with the balls in some fashion after the refs assessed them. That alone you can't do.
Clearly there's more to it than that and the league had suspicions that Patriots were up to this for some time, as per the Colts reporting it well before the playoffs. There is way too much smoke here for there not to be a fire.0 -
Not a Pats fan but I can't see this standing up under appeal at all. The punishment is unprecedented even taking previous infractions into account and the report was far from perfect (yes I've read the whole thing). Let me say first off that I agree that it's more probable than not that some air was let out of the Patriot's balls.
However, the report is a catalogue of a litany of screw-ups by the NFL and everyone involved. What bugs me the most about it is that the NFL knew that there might be an issue with the inflation of the footballs and they still managed to completely screw up how they handled it. Blandino raised the issue with the ref in their pre-game phonecall and it still ended up a farce.- The ref says he checked the pressure with the gauge that reads consistently lower but the consultants say he must have used the one that reads higher - if i were compiling a report such as this, I would have written up both scenarios as possibilities and presented those results as end-member cases
- The only record of pre-game pressures is "at or about 12.5" for the Pats and "at or about" 13 for the Colts
- The referees room seems to be used as a gathering point for NFL personnel and other unidentified credential holders, because they have TV and refreshments - :rolleyes:
- Anderson was uncharacteristically annoyed that the balls went missing, but (despite the issue having been raised) never thought it worth testing their pressure again
- There was only enough time to test 4 Colts balls at half time. So the game can be delayed for a Verizon commercial but not to verify its integrity?
- The two game officials who measured the pressures may have swapped gauges in between measuring the Colts and the Pats footballs
- The intercepted ball wasn't tested by the officials at half-time, nor was the ball caught by Develin
- The Pats may or may not have had an extra (unchecked by the referees) ball in the bag, no-one knows and no-one seems to care
- The intercepted ball was tested 3 times with 3 different readings but there is no account of whether these were 3 different testers, 3 different times, 3 different gauges or what
- The post game tests "did not provide a scientifically reasonable basis on which to conduct a comparative analysis similar to that performed using the pre-game and halftime measurements." Again - when you know it's going to be an issue, then surely you have to deal with it better
- The whole inflation rule is very unclear within the NFL. Some referees reportedly inflate everything to 13psi themselves - are teams then entitled to lower the pressure to 12.5?
- There was a complete and total fiasco surrounding the kicking balls at the same game
- The report gives averaged data correct to the second decimal place and then states that the gauges have a resolution of .05 psi - They keep doing this in the appendix as well which is extremely irritating e.g. "For example, a change from 68°F to 72°F would cause the pressure readings of a constant pressure source to drop by approximately 0.04"
- Exponent (the consultants) have a paragraph on battery life, but it looks like they only thought of this when the gauges they received showed low battery indications. Had they done their job properly they would have removed the batteries, tested the voltage and supplied new batteries for the gauge testing.
In summary from my point of view, I don't think there can be much argument over the substance of the findings - that there was air left out of the game balls - but I expect the NFL to be hauled over the coals by an arbitrator or a judge for the way they handled the whole fiasco and the sanction reduced. Look for the NFL to introduce a new inflation procedure as well.0 -
So why have the Patriots suspended John Jastremski and James McNally indefinitely? If they really believe they did nothing wrong, and are rallying around Brady, should they not rally around those two employees as well?
I've said countless times that I don't think the deflating issue was such a big deal and that the punishment is ridiculous, but you don't get that sort of punishment for nothing.
You're getting so aggressive in your defence when the vast majority of fans would agree that the Patriots tampered with the balls in some fashion after the refs assessed them. That alone you can't do.
Clearly there's more to it than that and the league had suspicions that Patriots were up to this for some time, as per the Colts reporting it well before the playoffs. There is way too much smoke here for there not to be a fire.
You are persisting in claiming that the Pats cheated, despite the clear lack of any evidence to support that. The report itself says that there is nothing to support a claim of tampering beyond their own assumptions. Multiple sources, both in the media and online have pointed out the abject failure of the data in the report to support such a claim.
I am being aggressive in defending the Pats and Brady, because they are innocent and being subjected to one of the worst attempts at a smear campaign that I've ever seen. I will continue to do vociferously in face of misinformed opinions and make no apologies for it.0 -
While I'd agree with most of that mcgratheoin, how are the NFL going to be hauled over the coals by a judge?
They run a kangaroo court. The appeals process will fall to them, and they can pretty much do what they like. Right?0 -
AbusesToilets wrote: »You are persisting in claiming that the Pats cheated, despite the clear lack of any evidence to support that. The report itself says that there is nothing to support a claim of tampering beyond their own assumptions. Multiple sources, both in the media and online have pointed out the abject failure of the data in the report to support such a claim.
I am being aggressive in defending the Pats and Brady, because they are innocent and being subjected to one of the worst attempts at a smear campaign that I've ever seen. I will continue to do vociferously in face of misinformed opinions and make no apologies for it.
Could you start with your own?
Its pretty much dick in face obvious that air was left out of the balls. For **** sake, McNally calls himself the Deflator.0 -
Those bringing up the lack of fumbling. Seriously get a grip and stop believing every conspiracy. I coach amateur football where fumbling is high and my RBs had a very low fumble rate in comparison to the rest of the league. All about drilling ball security into the back. Absolutely nothing to do with the lack of air in a ball.0
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Could you start with your own?
Its pretty much dick in face obvious that air was left out of the balls. For **** sake, McNally calls himself the Deflator.
Its is most certainly not obvious the air was let out of the balls.
Science would have explained it if Ted Wells hadn't convinced Walt Anderson to change his recollection on which gauge he used.
Not to mention the balls' PSI were not recorded at the start of the game.
Knex, are you saying that you are taking everything in the Well's report as 100% truth?0 -
Could you start with your own?
Its pretty much dick in face obvious that air was left out of the balls. For **** sake, McNally calls himself the Deflator.
Well, no actually it's not. Ignore the refs failure to record the psi readings of balls before the game and which gauges they used, rendering useless any later readings due to the lack of baseline to compare against. If you take the claim that the Pats balls were set at 12.5 psi, then the half time measurements fall into the range that can be accounted for by the game conditions, i.e. the Ideal Gas Law. Which means there was no basis for a claim that the balls were unusually deflated or tampered with.0 -
While I'd agree with most of that mcgratheoin, how are the NFL going to be hauled over the coals by a judge?
They run a kangaroo court. The appeals process will fall to them, and they can pretty much do what they like. Right?
Just basing it on previous NFLPA appeals - they have ended up in front of either an independent arbitrator (Saints & Ray Rice) who might be a judge, or an actual judge on the bench via litigation (Peterson). Can't claim to know enough about the legalities to know where this might end up if Brady takes up their offer of representation.0 -
I'm a little confused by this latest news or I may be interpreting it differently: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/12/failure-to-produce-mcnally-one-more-time-made-it-easier-for-nfl-to-hammer-patriots/
Are they saying McNally refused to meet Wells in person because a leak from the investigation had ESPN stalking his home but he still offered to do a phone interview?
If that's what I'm reading, that disgusting. A leak from the investigation had a national news agency stalking him outside his home and rightfully scared him as this average Joe Soap could have ended up on the front pages of all the national media, so he felt it was safer for him and his family just to do it over the phone and the Wells report decided to use this "lack of cooperation" as the stick to beat the Patriots with??!??! Jesus Fn Christ
Not to mention, he is a part time employee who has a regular full time job where he had to take 4 days off to interview for the Wells report. How are the NFL so arrogant that they expect this level of cooperation off of a layman?0 -
AbusesToilets wrote: »Well, no actually it's not. Ignore the refs failure to record the psi readings of balls before the game and which gauges they used, rendering useless any later readings due to the lack of baseline to compare against. If you take the claim that the Pats balls were set at 12.5 psi, then the half time measurements fall into the range that can be accounted for by the game conditions, i.e. the Ideal Gas Law. Which means there was no basis for a claim that the balls were unusually deflated or tampered with.
You're going by that college students maths which were since proved to be incorrect, are you?
The report itself states that no set of environmental or physical factors could account for the loss of air pressure exhibited by the Patriots game balls. The scientific study by Dr. Daniel Marlow, on behalf of the NFL/Wells Report, supported the report's conclusion that the loss of air pressure may be accounted for by human intervention.
Basis for a claim back on.0 -
I'm a little confused by this latest news or I may be interpreting it differently: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/12/failure-to-produce-mcnally-one-more-time-made-it-easier-for-nfl-to-hammer-patriots/
Are they saying McNally refused to meet Wells in person because a leak from the investigation had ESPN stalking his home but he still offered to do a phone interview?
If that's what I'm reading, that disgusting. A leak from the investigation had a national news agency stalking him outside his home and rightfully scared him as this average Joe Soap could have ended up on the front pages of all the national media, so he felt it was safer for him and his family just to do it over the phone and the Wells report decided to use this "lack of cooperation" as the stick to beat the Patriots with??!??! Jesus Fn Christ
Not to mention, he is a part time employee who has a regular full time job where he had to take 4 days off to interview for the Wells report. How are the NFL so arrogant that they expect this level of cooperation off of a layman?
Yeah, its pretty disturbing, but unfortunately its to be expected in our society and media today that something like this would happen.0 -
You're going by that college students maths which were since proved to be incorrect, are you?
The report itself states that no set of environmental or physical factors could account for the loss of air pressure exhibited by the Patriots game balls. The scientific study by Dr. Daniel Marlow, on behalf of the NFL/Wells Report, supported the report's conclusion that the loss of air pressure may be accounted for by human intervention.
Basis for a claim back on.
The science is hinges entirely on which gauge was used, which we know is a shady assumption by Wells.
Not to mention when the 4 Colts balls were tested it was 10 minutes after the Patriots balls were tested which in a warm room would have increased the PSI by 0.7. There is no mention of this in the report.
Exponent have a shady past of just proving whatever the people they were paid by wants them to prove.
There are a lot of holes and assumptions in the Science, which kinda makes it not science but opinion.0 -
You're going by that college students maths which were since proved to be incorrect, are you?
The report itself states that no set of environmental or physical factors could account for the loss of air pressure exhibited by the Patriots game balls. The scientific study by Dr. Daniel Marlow, on behalf of the NFL/Wells Report, supported the report's conclusion that the loss of air pressure may be accounted for by human intervention.
Basis for a claim back on.
This isn't college student math, it's been verified by multiple independent sources. Here is a quick take on the matter.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jan/29/bill-belichick/factchecking-bill-belichick-deflategate/
So , we have the failure to accurately log crucial data, without which there can be no proper analysis to gauge the deflation levels. Then we have the manipulation of said incomplete data to try and fit into the scenario being painted by the investigators.0 -
Yes - a civil engineer called Warren Sharp pointed out the significance of the Pat's low fumble rate. Here is a January commentary:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/deflate-gate-triggers-stat-spat-as-analysts-attempt-to-solve-why-patriots-don-t-fumble-003107565-nfl.html
Absolute and utter garbage. This is the worst part of these scandals people buying into every conspiracy and I say that from both sides of the coin. Plenty of Pats fans buying into some of the nonsense theories.
As a coach in amateur football where fumbling is high, my RBs had a very low fumble rate in comparison to the rest of the league. All about drilling ball security into the back. Absolutely nothing to do with the lack of air in a ball. I have been around High Schools and Colleges who have rigorous drills and policies for their backs and proper coaching sees the lack of fumbles. Just because everyone else fumbles high or some players just don't take their ball security more seriously than others it doesn't mean the supposed lack of air in a ball is helping the backs.
Bill takes ball security probably more seriously than any other coach in the league. It is sad when people now are using silly theories to take away from hard work and excellent coaching.0 -
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The fumbling stuff is absolute nonsense, like the Football is that simple: decrease the PSI of a ball by 1.5 then fumbles decrease 53%.
There are a million factors that go into fumbling a football: weather, strength of the RB, strength of the tackler, tiredness of the RB, tiredness of the tackler position of the ball, quality of blocking, quality of coaching, emphasis of coaching, etc.
But lets remove the million and one factors that go into a football game and lets just put it all on a slight decrease of PSI in a football.0
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