Pats accused of under inflating game balls against the Colts (MOD WARNING #457)

NotASheeple

NotASheeple wrote: »

Did you read my post? Because doesn't this answer your question....






Lets look at the facts and not speculation. Brady wasn't particularly great playing with underinflated balls in the first half. He was a lot better playing with the inflated balls in the second half.


My experience of Football tells me that an underinflated ball, reduces the surface aerodynamics of it and therefore reduces the accuracy & velocity of a thrown ball. So for me, Brady's improvement in the second half with properly inflated balls, makes complete sense.

In what way am i losing the run of myself. and by your logic everyone would have the balls an max psi every time

j8wk2feszrnpao

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

this is my logic as to why i feel brady would be able to tell the difference

How does that logically jumped to Brady definitely deflating the balls? That's not logic in my book.

The first snide comment;

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

brady however was absolutely involved

Not sure how that isn't a snide remark towards Brady's integrity.
And you've made repeated snide comments since.

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

for now all we have to think on are bits and pieces i dont think it made a difference to the game and i think this has been over blown to laughable levels but given the (alleged) evidence that we have for now I'm comfortable in my opinion

So far there's no evidence (or even alleged evidence) that Brady was involved. There's lots of speculation, but not a lot of evidence.
Hopefully the NFL can finish up their investigation sooner rather than later, cause I agree that it's been over blown to this point.

munstermagic11

munstermagic11 wrote: »

How does that logically jumped to Brady definitely deflating the balls? That's not logic in my book.
fair enough my phrasing was poor in my opinion brady was involved as iv said before i dont think we will ever definitively know
The first snide comment;
Not sure how that isn't a snide remark towards Brady's integrity.
And you've made repeated snide comments since.
thats not what snide means accusatory maby?

So far there's no evidence (or even alleged evidence) that Brady was involved. There's lots of speculation, but not a lot of evidence.
Hopefully the NFL can finish up their investigation sooner rather than later, cause I agree that it's been over blown to this point.

to be honest i think the whole thing will be forgotten by the draft and be one of those stupid things people who dont know all the facts use as a stick to beat a team ala spy gate already for pats/the ray lewis incident for ravens and on a personal note i get **** off buddys for stuff philly fans did 60 years ago. its maddening but what can you do most teams have something

j8wk2feszrnpao

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

thats not what snide means accusatory maby?

Snide: derogatory or mocking in an indirect way, (of a person) devious and underhand.
Accusing him of definitely deflating the footballs is close to the definition of a snide remark.

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

to be honest i think the whole thing will be forgotten by the draft and be one of those stupid things people who dont know all the facts use as a stick to beat a team ala spy gate already for pats/the ray lewis incident for ravens and on a personal note i get **** off buddys for stuff philly fans did 60 years ago. its maddening but what can you do most teams have something

If the NFL report doesn't have some conclusions, then this will drag on for a while longer. As long as it generates interest in "clicks", "viewers", "forums" and sells "column inches", this will go on.

munstermagic11

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Snide: derogatory or mocking in an indirect way, (of a person) devious and underhand.
Accusing him of definitely deflating the footballs is close to the definition of a snide remark.

i disagree
If the NFL report doesn't have some conclusions, then this will drag on for a while longer. As long as it generates interest in "clicks", "viewers", "forums" and sells "column inches", this will go on.

yup unfortunately. thank god the Super Bowl is two weeks away if this came out after it it would be a long summer

still could be worse at least you dont have a summer of mortgaging your future for mariota roomers ahead of you:mad:

Realt Dearg Sec

munstermagic11 wrote: »

If the NFL report doesn't have some conclusions, then this will drag on for a while longer. As long as it generates interest in "clicks", "viewers", "forums" and sells "column inches", this will go on.

Yup. The only thing more tedious than this story is listening to people debate the meaning of the word snide. Time for me to unfollow this thread I think.

bruschi

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yup. The only thing more tedious than this story is listening to people debate the meaning of the word snide. Time for me to unfollow this thread I think.

there was a breaking story the other day of the Browns sending text messages to the sideline from the media booth. Which is illegal and there is an official investigation. Maybe start up a thread on that and we can have a new 250+ post thread about the rules violation there and how they'll be punished for the rule breaking. Or the Jets who are being investigated for player tampering. I'm sure that would get an interesting following like this one.:pac:

kryogen

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yup. The only thing more tedious than this story is listening to people debate the meaning of the word snide. Time for me to unfollow this thread I think.

Not a pop at you in particular, but is this phrase any less annoying then, "Im putting you on my ignore list" which carries an infraction?

I mean if you are done with the thread or are going to "unfollow" it*, just do it nobody cares that you are doing it!

*Which is often a crock of **** as the people who say it very often do continue to read the thread and end up posting in it again

kryogen

bruschi wrote: »

there was a breaking story the other day of the Browns sending text messages to the sideline from the media booth. Which is illegal and there is an official investigation. Maybe start up a thread on that and we can have a new 250+ post thread about the rules violation there and how they'll be punished for the rule breaking. Or the Jets who are being investigated for player tampering. I'm sure that would get an interesting following like this one.:pac:

Success breeds envy, nobody cares about the Browns or Jets rule breaking. Those are just good clean rule breaks anyway, not the stuff the dastardly Patriots get up to

bruschi

kryogen wrote: »

Success breeds envy, nobody cares about the Browns or Jets rule breaking. Those are just good clean rule breaks anyway, not the stuff the dastardly Patriots get up to

although I should clarify, just because others are cheating doesnt excuse the Patriots, just that the level of outrage and media attention this is getting is way disproportionate to the action.

kryogen

bruschi wrote: »

although I should clarify, just because others are cheating doesnt excuse the Patriots, just that the level of outrage and media attention this is getting is way disproportionate to the action.

Doesn't need to be clarified, no cheating in sport is ok. Singling teams out for worse treatment then others is also not ok.

bruschi

kryogen wrote: »

Doesn't need to be clarified, no cheating in sport is ok. Singling teams out for worse treatment then others is also not ok.

oh it absolutely does on boards! if you dont say that cheating is bad on every post its automatically assumed you are defending the Patriots and deflecting attention.:o

Realt Dearg Sec

kryogen wrote: »

Not a pop at you in particular, but is this phrase any less annoying then, "Im putting you on my ignore list" which carries an infraction?

I mean if you are done with the thread or are going to "unfollow" it*, just do it nobody cares that you are doing it!

*Which is often a crock of **** as the people who say it very often do continue to read the thread and end up posting in it again

Not me, when I say it I really mean it.

taidghbaby

bruschi wrote: »

although I should clarify, just because others are cheating doesnt excuse the Patriots, just that the level of outrage and media attention this is getting is way disproportionate to the action.

What are you talking about? Are you trying to imply that the Patriots are being unfairly singled out?

I mean it's not as if another organisation in the NFL attempted to cover up its starting running back beating the **** out of his wife in an elevator, with the help of NFL league offices (by the looks of it), which has had much less attention shone on it?

clear thinking

This thread has gone a bit off the rails. For me its obvious, there will be slap on the wrist fine as there is no obvious gain from the cheating.

one thing missed here is that Brady may well have been poor in the first half but the softer ball would have been better for handling in the run game.

NotASheeple

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

In what way am i losing the run of myself.

Aren't you the person who said this...

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

couldn't say for certain with bb, brady however was absolutely involved

Why don't you ring the NFL and give them the results of your findings & investigation :rolleyes:. Complete nonsense imo and if that isn't losing the run of yourself, then what is?

Ariana Plain Magenta wrote: »

by your logic everyone would have the balls an max psi every time

Once again, I never said anything about balls needing max psi. This is the only comment made RE: psi...

NotASheeple wrote: »

The Pats have absolutely hammered the Colts in recent games. And the PSi of the ball didn't make a damn difference.

Nope, nothing about max psi.

BKWDR

Lads all this talk is really taking away from the fact we should be getting hyped about the Pro-Bowl....

Amerika

As a NY Jets fan who detests Belechick and the Patriots, I've got to say... I'M LOVIN' IT!

The parodies that are coming out over the controversy are kickass.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5l1TP-0iz8

https://soundcloud.com/99-9-the-hawk/barney-teaches-deflategate

Alfred Borden

:pac:

j8wk2feszrnpao

Amerika wrote: »

As a NY Jets fan who detests Belechick and the Patriots, I've got to say... I'M LOVIN' IT!

The parodies that are coming out over the controversy are kickass.

If you find this issue amusing, then you'll find this hilarious!

rockonollie

taidghbaby wrote: »

What are you talking about? Are you trying to imply that the Patriots are being unfairly singled out?

I mean it's not as if another organisation in the NFL attempted to cover up its starting running back beating the **** out of his wife in an elevator, with the help of NFL league offices (by the looks of it), which has had much less attention shone on it?

Less attention? It was the only thing ESPN talked about for almost 2 months

Amerika

munstermagic11 wrote: »

If you find this issue amusing, then you'll find this hilarious!

I'm a NY Jets fan... and therefore quite accustomed to the exploits of Gang Gonzo.

But back on topic. Interesting how all roads seem to lead back to Tom Brady.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/22/brady-pushed-for-rule-to-let-visiting-team-provide-own-footballs/

Amerika

You just can't make this stuff up.

DecStone

Amerika wrote: »

As a NY Jets fan who detests Belechick and the Patriots, I've got to say... I'M LOVIN' IT!

The parodies that are coming out over the controversy are kickass.

I can't post the link but if you go to youtube and search for 'Shady Brady and Bill Belicheat' you'll find an old one from the 'spygate' scandal. The name 'Belicheat' stuck for years after that.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Amerika wrote: »

But back on topic. Interesting how all roads seem to lead back to Tom Brady.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/22/brady-pushed-for-rule-to-let-visiting-team-provide-own-footballs/

Not sure how relevant that is towards deflate-gate. That's about preping the footballs, something all QB's did/do. It just made it an even playing field.

It's kinda been a quite day on the whole issue. By Bray's conference (4 days later), he still hadn't been contacted by the NFL. What are they doing?

Amerika

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It's kinda been a quite day on the whole issue. By Bray's conference (4 days later), he still hadn't been contacted by the NFL. What are they doing?

IMO, the Super Bowl is less than two weeks away and the NFL wants the cheating controversy to just go away and aren’t really interested in who or how the balls got deflated. It’s the NFL brand they really want to protect and not the integrity of the game.

Buford T. Justice XIX

I came across this earlier on today and it gave me a laugh. It might, erm, deflate the arguments on the thread?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/leftfield/i-once-got-a-rake-and-i-killed-a-snowman-bad-lip-reading-from-nfl-2015-is-hilarious-30929679.html


Enjoy

Edit. Dammit, wrong thread but still funny

Vanolder

So when will the Pats have to cough up the 25k for this minor offence?

Hazys

Amerika wrote: »

IMO, the Super Bowl is less than two weeks away and the NFL wants the cheating controversy to just go away and aren’t really interested in who or how the balls got deflated. It’s the NFL brand they really want to protect and not the integrity of the game.

I honestly don't believe it. There has been one leak in the investigation and it was a massive one that fueled the controversy. 11 of 12 balls were under 12.5 psi but we actually don't know by how much exactly, its not clear were all balls 2 psi below the limit or was it just one and the rest were less than 2 psi?

If the Brady had all the balls filled at 12.5 psi 2 hours before the game indoors, then they would all be under 12.5 psi by halftime so it wouldn't have been illegal tampering.

The biggest issue reported is the NFL planned ahead to test the balls at half time, which if true, it would seriously damage their integrity. Why wouldn't they warn the Pats ahead of time that under inflated balls are not legal so the AFC Championship was played fairly instead of allowing a team break the rules so they could catch them out? They were willing to allow one team cheat for one half in such an important game just so they could catch them, if true, then integrity is thrown out the window.

At this point the NFL needs to speak, they are becoming a farce at this point. The longer they wait, the bigger the controversy grows.

Amerika

Vanolder wrote: »

So when will the Pats have to cough up the 25k for this minor offence?

The money doesn't matter one bit to either the Pats or the NFL. It's the possible loss of a draft pick that is the real concern in this thing.

Vanolder

Amerika wrote: »

The money doesn't matter one bit to either the Pats or the NFL. It's the possible loss of a draft pick that is the real concern in this thing.

Losing a draft pick for a very minor offence is a bit extreme is it not? Especially as other teams have altered balls this year and have gone unpunished, why would they dish out such extreme measures now?

padraig_f

Hazys wrote: »

I honestly don't believe it. There has been one leak in the investigation and it was a massive one that fueled the controversy. 11 of 12 balls were under 12.5 psi but we actually don't know by how much exactly, its not clear were all balls 2 psi below the limit or was it just one and the rest were less than 2 psi?

If the Brady had all the balls filled at 12.5 psi 2 hours before the game indoors, then they would all be under 12.5 psi by halftime so it wouldn't have been illegal tampering.

The biggest issue reported is the NFL planned ahead to test the balls at half time, which if true, it would seriously damage their integrity. Why wouldn't they warn the Pats ahead of time that under inflated balls are not legal so the AFC Championship was played fairly instead of allowing a team break the rules so they could catch them out? They were willing to allow one team cheat for one half in such an important game just so they could catch them, if true, then integrity is thrown out the window.

At this point the NFL needs to speak, they are becoming a farce at this point. The longer they wait, the bigger the controversy grows.

In terms of the investigation, the key point to me will be if the refs tested the footballs with a pressure gauge 2 hours before the game. If they only manually checked them, and didn't use a gauge, the Patriots will be in the clear. My understanding is it's not required for the team to supply the footballs with the correct pressure. It's up to the refs to ensure it in this check 2 hours before the game.

However if the refs did check them with a gauge, and they were found to be significantly below pressure at half-time, the Patriots will have a case to answer. And 'I don't know' wouldn't be a sufficient answer, because there wouldn't be a reasonable explanation why the pressure had reduced, without tampering.

padraig_f

Vanolder wrote: »

So when will the Pats have to cough up the 25k for this minor offence?

It won't be a fine if they were playing with non-regulation footballs after the refs verified them. You and I may have different opinions on it (personally I think a fine for tampering would be a mockery, effectively condoning it), but I'm pretty sure the NFL won't take it lightly.

Vanolder

padraig_f wrote: »

It won't be a fine if they were playing with non-regulation footballs after the refs verified them. You and I may have different opinions on it (personally I think a fine for tampering would be a mockery, effectively condoning it), but I'm pretty sure the NFL won't take it lightly.

How do you mean? They didn't punish the Panthers for doing it in Novemeber, are all teams not treated the same?

Hazys

padraig_f wrote: »

It won't be a fine if they were playing with non-regulation footballs after the refs verified them. You and I may have different opinions on it (personally I think a fine for tampering would be a mockery, effectively condoning it), but I'm pretty sure the NFL won't take it lightly.

Whats the $25,000 fine for so if not tampering after inspection? Giving the balls to the ref in non-perfect condition before inspection? That appears to be common place if Rodger's comments are to be believed.


Obviously tho, $25,000 is the minimum punishment but i think it shows how minor the infraction it is. If anybody thinks there is a major competitive advantage to tampering with the balls, the NFL wouldn't have such a relaxed view on it; We will inspect the balls 2 hours before the game and then hand them straight back to you. If the NFL thought it was a major competitive advantage the rules would have been a lot more stringent than that.

padraig_f

Vanolder wrote: »

How do you mean? They didn't punish the Panthers for doing it in Novemeber, are all teams not treated the same?

I wouldn't see systematic deflation of 11 of 12 footballs to be the same case as a ball-boy holding a ball up to a heater.

Amerika

Vanolder wrote: »

Losing a draft pick for a very minor offence is a bit extreme is it not? Especially as other teams have altered balls this year and have gone unpunished, why would they dish out such extreme measures now?

If the Patriots are found to have deliberately doctored footballs, the organization can be fined a minimum of $25,000, and if the NFL finds the incident egregious, the Patriots could potentially lose a draft pick

.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/20/nfl-says-patriots-used-under-inflated-footballs/7UlPZI3eotRTBadM89saeO/story.html

padraig_f

Hazys wrote: »

Whats the $25,000 fine for so if not tampering after inspection? Giving the balls to the ref in non-perfect condition before inspection? That appears to be common place if Rodger's comments are to be believed.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, I meant a $25k fine would be insufficient for tampering post-inspection. Pre-inspection, from my point of view you can subimit the balls in any condition you want.

Hazys

I think at this point (more likely a couple of days ago) we just have to wait for the findings of the investigation to come out because all the speculating is ludicrous but i do have one question.

If all the balls were all re-inflated at halftime, why did the refs have to switch out the ball on the first offense play of the 3rd quarter? How was there something wrong with that ball if it was supposedly re-inflated?

Hazys

Wow a couple more days of this, ffs

Forensic evidence, this is insane at this point.

"Our office has been conducting an investigation as to whether the footballs used in last Sunday’s AFC Championship Game complied with the specifications that are set forth in the playing rules. The investigation began based on information that suggested that the game balls used by the New England Patriots were not properly inflated to levels required by the playing rules, specifically Playing Rule 2, Section 1, which requires that the ball be inflated to between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch. Prior to the game, the game officials inspect the footballs to be used by each team and confirm that this standard is satisfied, which was done before last Sunday’s game.

“The investigation is being led jointly by NFL Executive Vice President Jeff Pash and Ted Wells of the law firm of Paul Weiss. Mr. Wells and his firm bring additional expertise and a valuable independent perspective. The investigation began promptly on Sunday night. Over the past several days, nearly 40 interviews have been conducted, including of Patriots personnel, game officials, and third parties with relevant information and expertise. We have obtained and are continuing to obtain additional information, including video and other electronic information and physical evidence. We have retained Renaissance Associates, an investigatory firm with sophisticated forensic expertise to assist in reviewing electronic and video information.

“The playing rules are intended to protect the fairness and integrity of our games. We take seriously claims that those rules have been violated and will fully investigate this matter without compromise or delay. The investigation is ongoing, will be thorough and objective, and is being pursued expeditiously. In the coming days, we expect to conduct numerous additional interviews, examine video and other forensic evidence, as well as relevant physical evidence. While the evidence thus far supports the conclusion that footballs that were under-inflated were used by the Patriots in the first half, the footballs were properly inflated for the second half and confirmed at the conclusion of the game to have remained properly inflated. The goals of the investigation will be to determine the explanation for why footballs used in the game were not in compliance with the playing rules and specifically whether any noncompliance was the result of deliberate action. We have not made any judgments on these points and will not do so until we have concluded our investigation and considered all of the relevant evidence.

“Upon being advised of the investigation, the Patriots promptly pledged their full cooperation and have made their personnel and other information available to us upon request. Our investigation will seek information from any and all relevant sources and we expect full cooperation from other clubs as well. As we develop more information and are in a position to reach conclusions, we will share them publicly.

padraig_f

"Our office has been conducting an investigation as to whether the footballs used in last Sunday’s AFC Championship Game complied with the specifications that are set forth in the playing rules. The investigation began based on information that suggested that the game balls used by the New England Patriots were not properly inflated to levels required by the playing rules, specifically Playing Rule 2, Section 1, which requires that the ball be inflated to between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch. Prior to the game, the game officials inspect the footballs to be used by each team and confirm that this standard is satisfied, which was done before last Sunday’s game.

This is the important point to me, they seem to be confirming that the pre-game checks, including pressure checks were done correctly.

Oat23

Vanolder wrote: »

So when will the Pats have to cough up the 25k for this minor offence?

Vanolder wrote: »

Losing a draft pick for a very minor offence is a bit extreme is it not? Especially as other teams have altered balls this year and have gone unpunished, why would they dish out such extreme measures now?

Tampering with footballs isn't a minor offense. A 25k fine would be a joke.

Holding rock hard footballs up to a heater to soften the pigskin is a minor offense at worst. They weren't removing air from the ball, they were trying to return the ball to its normal state.

Vanolder

Oat23 wrote: »

Tampering with footballs isn't a minor offense. A 25k fine would be a joke.

Holding rock hard footballs up to a heater to soften the pigskin is a minor offense at worst. They weren't removing air from the ball, they were trying to return the ball to its normal state.

What's your thoughts on the Browns' in-game texting? Loss of a first round pick?

Hazys

Oat23 wrote: »

Tampering with footballs isn't a minor offense. A 25k fine would be a joke.

Holding rock hard footballs up to a heater to soften the pigskin is a minor offense at worst. They weren't removing air from the ball, they were trying to return the ball to its normal state.

They heated the balls after being told not to by the refs during the week as it was against the rules. That's OK but removing air from the balls is not? Where do you get these ball tampering ethics from?

Returning the ball to its normal state? ffs They are not ball rights activists trying to save the balls' life. Whats the 'normal state' of an nfl ball? i didn't see the rule book specify a temperature that NFL balls had to be at.

Hazys

Vanolder wrote: »

What's your thoughts on the Browns' in-game texting? Loss of a first round pick?

Its funny that most people don't even know that there is an ongoing investigation against the Browns.

Imagine if the tables were turned and the Pats were accused of texting in-game and the Brown's were deflating footballs, I'm sure the Browns would be the lead story on CNN and the Patriots would barely be mentioned.

Like somebody said during the week, in CFB, you never see bad teams get NCAA sanctions, only the good teams.

Oat23

Hazys wrote: »

They heated the balls after being told not to by the refs during the week as it was against the rules. That's OK but removing air from the balls is not? Where do you get these ball tampering ethics from?

Where did I say it was okay? I said it was a minor offense at worst. If the ball is inflated and approved by a ref pregame, then frozen solid in -10C weather and heated by a ballboy during the game it returns to it's pregame state as approved by the referee. It's a minor offense. Removing air from footballs after they have been approved isn't even close to the same thing.

Hazys wrote: »

Returning the ball to its normal state? ffs They are not ball rights activists trying to save the balls' life. Whats the 'normal state' of an nfl ball? i didn't see the rule book specify a temperature that NFL balls had to be at.

The 'normal state' of an NFL ball, as I said above, is the state of the ball pre-game. If it is subjected to -10C weather, the skin goes rock hard.

Hazys

Oat23 wrote: »

Where did I say it was okay? I said it was a minor offense at worst. If the ball is inflated and approved by a ref pregame, then frozen solid in -10C weather and heated by a ballboy during the game it returns to it's pregame state as approved by the referee. It's a minor offense. Removing air from footballs after they have been approved isn't even close to the same thing.



The 'normal state' of an NFL ball, as I said above, is the state of the ball pre-game. If it is subjected to -10C weather, the skin goes rock hard.

As approved by the referee? The actions was strictly prohibited by the referee ffs.

Not even close to the same thing? I'm amazed that people can make such distinctions in the ethics of ball tampering, 99.999999% of us didn't even know the rules up until Monday.

Oat23

Hazys wrote: »

As approved by the referee? The actions was strictly prohibited by the referee ffs.

Do you honestly see no difference between what the Panthers did and what the Patriots are accused of? None? They are both as bad as eachother in your mind?

The Panthers offence is minor simply because the ball still meets league requirements after their ballboys 'tampered' with them by holding them up to heaters.

Hazys

Oat23 wrote: »

Do you honestly see no difference between what the Panthers did and what the Patriots are accused of? None? They are both as bad as eachother in your mind?

The Panthers offence is minor simply because the ball still meets league requirements after their ballboys 'tampered' with them by holding them up to heaters.

Obviously they are different acts but they are very similar too.

Both occurred after inspection of the balls by the refs but in the Panthers and Vikings case they were both specifically told not to heat the balls by the officials the week of the game and they still went ahead and did it. A warmer ball is easier to throw and catch giving a competitive advantage. These are all the arguments against the Patriots in Deflategate, except the teams were told beforehand not to do it and they still did it.

What is the major distinction in your mind that makes them completely different in terms of severity of the crime?

Also, I don't get why you keep saying their actions meet league requirements when the league told them it was illegal to do it.

Hazys

I was really hoping that the investigation would have wrapped up today and everybody could have moved on regardless of the result. The longer this goes on the bigger the scandal it becomes. Its clear the NFL has nothing at this point and this won't be resolved by the Super Bowl and unfortunately this cloud over the Super Bowl kinda ruins it for me. Its really disappointing.

There is no new information or even solid information to even debate over at this point, so I'm going to bow out of the conversation for awhile