Marriage Equality Referendum

Daith · 21-01-2015 3:59pm #1

The wording people will be asked to vote on

‘Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex.’

Details here http://justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR15000009

Ash885 · 21-01-2015 5:05pm

Fantastic wording, I find.

And given that car crash of scare mongering that was the Claire B. debate show, at least this should seperate the ssm and family bill once and for all.

Daith · 21-01-2015 5:18pm

Ash885 wrote: »

Fantastic wording, I find.

And given that car crash of scare mongering that was the Claire B. debate show, at least this should seperate the ssm and family bill once and for all.

The government still need to get the Child and Family Bill passed soon but I agree that the wording is clear.

floggg · 21-01-2015 6:05pm

Ash885 wrote: »

Fantastic wording, I find.

And given that car crash of scare mongering that was the Claire B. debate show, at least this should seperate the ssm and family bill once and for all.

I just finished watching that debate today.

I think the yes side seemed articulate, but extraordinarily unprepared for the easily anticipated sidetracking onto family issues.

I couldn't believe it took the woman from the adopted children's group to point out that fertility/assisted reproduction and adoption issues were issues also issues which also arose in straight couples (and I would imagine most couples who adopt or avail of assisted reproduction services will be straight).

I also thought it was naive of them to just try and bring it back to "its all about love." I understand that they were trying to convey it as a positive, non-threatening change, but people do have concerns (which are being amplified by the disinformation campaign) and these should be addressed.

I was crying out for somebody to point out that the biological parents of adopted children won't be on the scene anyway, so nobody is being deprived of their parents.

I think they sooner the family rights legislation is passed the better. It really should have been introduced last year to be honest, as now there will be accusations of it being rail roaded through and under cutting the democratic process.

Finally, everybody on the pro side reading this should consider donating to Marriage Equality, LGBT Noise or similar groups campaigning on the Yes side, and if possible getting involved in the campaign.

At the very least, let's all ensure as much of our friends and family get out to vote as possible.

alaimacerc · 21-01-2015 6:27pm

Ronan Mullen on the radio right now. When asked if the referendum wasn't actually about the right to get married (after one of his early-breaking "children's right sky falling" tangents, and hence the "unfairness" of the referendum wording not being ludicrously loaded the way he'd have liked), he said:

"If it was about that, people would find it very difficult to oppose it."

My heart bleeds for you, it really does. Reality's liberal bias making life "difficult" for you again, Ronan. Expect four months of solid "our rights for you not to have equal rights" deflection from this quarter.

floggg · 21-01-2015 6:28pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

Ronan Mullen on the radio right now. When asked if the referendum wasn't actually about the right to get married (after one of his early-breaking "children's right sky falling" tangents, and hence the "unfairness" of the referendum wording not being ludicrously loaded the way he'd have liked), he said:

"If it was about that, people would find it very difficult to oppose it."

My heart bleeds for you, it really does. Reality's liberal bias making life "difficult" for you again, Ronan. Expect four months of solid "our rights for you not to have equal rights" deflection from this quarter.

Who is he debating against? Which radio station?

alaimacerc · 21-01-2015 6:33pm

floggg wrote: »

Who is he debating against? Which radio station?

Over now, sorry, waxed too long and too slow.

RTER1 Drivetime. Not a debate as such, but they'd Frances Fitzgerald on first, sounding very measured and reasonable, and the RM on immediately afterward... not.

alaimacerc · 21-01-2015 6:36pm

floggg wrote: »

I was crying out for somebody to point out that the biological parents of adopted children won't be on the scene anyway, so nobody is being deprived of their parents.

When they say "a child's right to their father and their mother", don't assume they necessarily mean the biological parents. Any ol' heterosexuals will do, really!

I think they sooner the family rights legislation is passed the better. It really should have been introduced last year to be honest, as now there will be accusations of it being rail roaded through and under cutting the democratic process.

Oh, we'd have had those anyway. I saw on another site over a year ago someone saying there should judicial review (or some such nonsense) over any change to the family rights law, because it would be breaching the McKenna judgement and unfairly influencing the referendum. i.e. somewhat reducing their scope to deflect onto their makey-uppy "equal rights for children to have their parents kinda-sorta compelled to do what we want them to do, though not actually quite even that".

Annasopra · 21-01-2015 7:03pm

The Yes side will need active campaigners and canvassers on the ground. I would strongly urge everyone in favour to go out and actively assist local Yes campaigners as much as possible.

Yes Equality is the umbrella campaign consisting of Marriage Equality, Gay and Lesbian Equality Network and Irish Council for Civil Liberties.

marienbad · 21-01-2015 7:14pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The Yes side will need active campaigners and canvassers on the ground. I would strongly urge everyone in favour to go out and actively assist local Yes campaigners as much as possible.

Yes Equality is the umbrella campaign consisting of Marriage Equality, Gay and Lesbian Equality Network and Irish Council for Civil Liberties.

Donate

Text LOVE to 50300 to donate €4. 100% of text cost goes to GLEN across most network providers. Some providers may apply VAT which means that a minimum of €3.25 will go to the campaign. Service Provider: LIKECHARITY. Helpline: 0766805278. After you donate you will receive the following text response.

SILVAMAN · 21-01-2015 7:31pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

Ronan Mullen on the radio right now. When asked if the referendum wasn't actually about the right to get married (after one of his early-breaking "children's right sky falling" tangents, and hence the "unfairness" of the referendum wording not being ludicrously loaded the way he'd have liked), he said:

"If it was about that, people would find it very difficult to oppose it."

My heart bleeds for you, it really does. Reality's liberal bias making life "difficult" for you again, Ronan. Expect four months of solid "our rights for you not to have equal rights" deflection from this quarter.

Is he actually straight?

alaimacerc · 21-01-2015 7:36pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Is he actually straight?

What he is, is "mentally reserved" to the point of extreme twistedness.

HIB · 21-01-2015 7:39pm

Just watching the news there and they asked the pro gay marriage guy what is the difference between marriage and civil partnership. He said something about being treated as equal citizens. Didn't give any tangible examples though. Can anyone elaborate ? What will be the actual, tangible differences? E.g. will marriage as opposed to civil partnership sort out some inheritance issues? Or maybe the right to a say in medical treatment of your partner?

Annasopra · 21-01-2015 7:41pm

HIB wrote: »

Just watching the news there and they asked the pro gay marriage guy what is the difference between marriage and civil partnership. He said something about being treated as equal citizens. Didn't give any tangible examples though. Can anyone elaborate ? What will be the actual, tangible differences? E.g. will marriage as opposed to civil partnership sort out some inheritance issues? Or maybe the right to a say in medical treatment of your partner?

All of them? Theres over 160.

http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

alaimacerc · 21-01-2015 7:45pm

HIB wrote: »

Just watching the news there and they asked the pro gay marriage guy what is the difference between marriage and civil partnership. He said something about being treated as equal citizens. Didn't give any tangible examples though. Can anyone elaborate ? What will be the actual, tangible differences? E.g. will marriage as opposed to civil partnership sort out some inheritance issues? Or maybe the right to a say in medical treatment of your partner?

There's so many that Top Nerds have made a spreadsheet! http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

Of course, the "no" side say that these can be addressed separately in primary legislation, which is to some extent perhaps true. But at some ill-defined point this tends to run into a) constitutional difficulties, and b) opposition from the very people who a moment ago were advising going down that route.

alaimacerc · 21-01-2015 7:49pm

Well, since I was beaten to the punch on that one, here's the ones from the FAQ from that same site:

"For example, Civil Partnership:

does not permit children to have a legally recognised relationship with their parents - only the biological one. This causes all sorts of practical problems for hundreds of families with schools and hospitals as well as around guardianship, access and custody. In the worst case, it could mean that a child is taken away from a parent and put into care on the death of the biological parent.
does not recognise same sex couples' rights to many social supports that may be needed in hardship situations and may literally leave a loved one out in the cold.
defines the home of civil partners as a "shared home", rather than a "family home" , as is the case for married couples. This has implications for the protection of dependent children living in this home and also means a lack of protection for civil partners who are deserted.

"

HIB · 21-01-2015 7:53pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

There's so many that Top Nerds have made a spreadsheet! http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

Of course, the "no" side say that these can be addressed separately in primary legislation, which is to some extent perhaps true. But at some ill-defined point this tends to run into a) constitutional difficulties, and b) opposition from the very people who a moment ago were advising going down that route.

That's very interesting. Thanks. A lot of the items in green I.e. those addressed under civil partnership, had 'married' wording. Any idea how/why these were successfully ammended to include civil partnership, while others (in red) were not. Was the civil partnership bill ( I think thats the name?) just badly drafted.

alaimacerc · 21-01-2015 8:17pm

HIB wrote: »

That's very interesting. Thanks. A lot of the items in green I.e. those addressed under civil partnership, had 'married' wording. Any idea how/why these were successfully ammended to include civil partnership, while others (in red) were not. Was the civil partnership bill ( I think thats the name?) just badly drafted.

I dunno about the detail, I'd have to look much more closely. Then likely still wouldn't know. The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

But I'm given to understand that part of the drafting process deliberately left a number of differences, on the basis that making it too similar to "proper" marriage would be open to constitutional challenge. On the reasoning of, "this is 'marriage' by another name, therefore changing the definition of 'family', therefore outside the scope of primary legislation, therefore struck down."

marienbad · 21-01-2015 8:19pm

Even if there were no difference it would still be wrong , just the Irish version of 'separate but equal'

floggg · 21-01-2015 9:10pm

marienbad wrote: »

Even if there were no difference it would still be wrong , just the Irish version of 'separate but equal'

This. If there was no dofference between the two other than in name, then the only purpose for maintaining the distinction would be to mark them out as different or unequal - even though there would be no actual material difference.

It would serve no purpose other than to maintain an artificial sense of otherness about same sex relationships.

Annasopra · 21-01-2015 9:14pm

In other counties or constituencies they not be using the Yes Equality banner

alaimacerc · 21-01-2015 10:05pm

floggg wrote: »

This. If there was no dofference between the two other than in name, then the only purpose for maintaining the distinction would be to mark them out as different or unequal - even though there would be no actual material difference.

Or as a handy reference for the convenience of discrimination down the line.

Personally I'd be delighted with "civil unions all round", on the continental model of "whatever happens in church, stays in church". But I'm not holding my breath for that being offered in these parts any time foreseeable.

Irish Aris · 22-01-2015 3:10pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

All of them? Theres over 160.

http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

thanks for this Joey (and for the links for the groups).
Not sure if I read this correctly, are the highlighted red that aren't currently covered by civil partnership and will do so under marriage equality?

floggg · 22-01-2015 6:34pm

If anybody is interested in volunteering, canvassing or campaigning in any shape or form over the coming months, I would suggest getting in touch with Marriage Equality, GLEN, LGBT Noise or other group of your choosing to express your interest now so that they can include you in any volunteer circulars which they send out.

I know Marriage Equality are planning a training event in the next few weeks, and I'm sure the other groups will lovely run something similar.

Daith · 22-01-2015 6:39pm

floggg wrote: »

If anybody is interested in volunteering, canvassing or campaigning in any shape or form over the coming months, I would suggest getting in touch with Marriage Equality, GLEN, LGBT Noise or other group of your choosing to express your interest now so that they can include you in any volunteer circulars which they send out.

I know Marriage Equality are planning a training event in the next few weeks, and I'm sure the other groups will lovely run something similar.

I really hope that's it a coordinated effort between groups.

Annasopra · 22-01-2015 6:48pm

Daith wrote: »

I really hope that's it a coordinated effort between groups.

Glen, Iccl and ME are running a joint campaign called yes equality. See above.

Get involved.

Daith · 23-01-2015 10:02am

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Glen, Iccl and ME are running a joint campaign called yes equality. See above.

Get involved.

Good stuff! Will do.

ninty9er · 24-01-2015 1:12am

Daith wrote: »

The wording people will be asked to vote on

‘Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex.’

Details here http://justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR15000009

That's the wording of the proposed constitutional amendment, most people don't read the bill

Here's what they'll get on a piece of paper

Do you approve of the proposal to amend the Constitution contained in the undermentioned Bill

Thirty-fourth Amendment of the Constitution (Marriage Equality) Bill 2015

An Bille um an gCeathrú Leasú is Tríocha ar an mBunreacht (Comhionannas
Pósta), 2015

Annasopra · 06-02-2015 6:36am

Frances Fitzgerald gave a good speech in Cork last night.

http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2015/speech-by-the-minister-fo/index.xml

marienbad · 06-02-2015 2:23pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Frances Fitzgerald gave a good speech in Cork last night.

http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2015/speech-by-the-minister-fo/index.xml

Great speech , who taught we would live to see the day !

Ten of Swords · 06-02-2015 8:31pm

The referendum is about who can marry. It is not about parental rights for children. That issue will be addressed in the Children and Family Relationships Bill which I will publish very shortly.

Shame this won't stop the usual suspects spouting their particular brand of nonsense...

alaimacerc · 06-02-2015 9:15pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Shame this won't stop the usual suspects spouting their particular brand of nonsense...

It's unfortunate that the various Shattergates haven't allowed enough clear blue(!) water between the two. Had we had the bones of a year between the FRCB and the MEAA, some of the intervening nonsense would have quieted down a bit in between. Of course, would have meant two separate nonsense peaks...

Annasopra · 06-02-2015 11:47pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Shame this won't stop the usual suspects spouting their particular brand of nonsense...

Meh.. Let them and counter it

david75 · 08-02-2015 4:32pm

this is a cool idea

#MARREF TEXT MESSAGE
Text your friends and family to register and support. Just Copy, Paste and Edit the text below.
This coming May, a referendum will be held to decide whether or not to add a line to the constitution allowing same-sex couples the right to marry.

This right means a lot to me; the right to be treated as equal citizens under the law.

This change won't happen easily, and we are looking for help from family and friends by asking you to vote. Check that you are registered to vote at www.checktheregister.ie

It's not too late to register to vote by joining the Supplementary Register. You can download an application form (RFA2) at http://goo.gl/jZvCF1. If you need to change your details or address, Form RFA1 and RFA3 are available here also.

We would appreciate if you could pass this message on to your friends and family.

Thanks for your support, _______.

P.S. Contrary to many reports, the Marriage Referendum has nothing to do with parental rights; this is a completely separate issue that is being dealt with in the Children & Family Relationships Bill. In March of this year this bill is due to be enacted giving same-sex couples parental and adoptive rights. The Marriage Referendum in May is only about affording same-sex couples the right to marry.

Aard · 08-02-2015 4:37pm

That's one long text message!

david75 · 08-02-2015 4:38pm

i whatsapped it..easier cos you can use the broadcast function and just select who youre sending it to..quicker&easier..viber probably has the same function..

Annasopra · 11-02-2015 1:41am

Marriage Equality need some funds.

You can donate by going to
www.marriagequality.ie/donate or in Ireland by texting LOVE to 51500 to have the link sent to your smart phone.

And also you can sign upto this thunderclap to spread the word

https://www.thunderclap.it/en/projects/22137

Annasopra · 20-02-2015 12:32am

Its on Harvey Milk Day

blackbird 49 · 20-02-2015 12:44am

Hi all , curiosity more than anything, what is the difference between civil partnership and same sex marriage, my vote will be yes, but just asking, thanks

Annasopra · 20-02-2015 12:48am

blackbird 49 wrote: »

Hi all , curiosity more than anything, what is the difference between civil partnership and same sex marriage, my vote will be yes, but just asking, thanks

Marriage has constitutional protection. Civil partnership doesn't. There are 160 something differences in law but even these were ironed out it would still be a separate but unequal institution.

Annasopra · 20-02-2015 7:24pm

Aard · 20-02-2015 10:58pm

When you say "get involved".... what might that entail? Marriage Equality recently included me in a mass-email asking for a volunteer for three hours a day for the next three months. Ain't nobody got time fo that.

Annasopra · 20-02-2015 11:46pm

Aard wrote: »

When you say "get involved".... what might that entail? Marriage Equality recently included me in a mass-email asking for a volunteer for three hours a day for the next three months. Ain't nobody got time fo that.

Lots of things; canvassing, organising events, distributing leaflets or badges, wearing t shirts, signing people with vote pledges; anything at all really. It doesnt have to be 3 hours a day!! It could be one hour a week. It could be 5 hours for 1 day.

The thing is if everyone says "I dont have time" then I'm sorry but the referendum won't be won. It really really really needs a mass collective effort.

Instead of saying - "someone should do something" - Be the someone

Aard · 21-02-2015 12:32am

Hey I've volunteered before and have no problem volunteering again. I just don't want to get roped into a situation where there's pressure to do more than I sign up for. Do Yes Equality (or the likes) have specific tasks that people can do, at specific times? The catchphrase "Public Meeting - Volunteers Required" kind of fills me with dread that I'll be guilt-tripped into spending more time than I have....and me trying to slink out of the meeting. Just a bit of definiteness would help I think.

Annasopra · 21-02-2015 10:40am

Aard wrote: »

Hey I've volunteered before and have no problem volunteering again. I just don't want to get roped into a situation where there's pressure to do more than I sign up for. Do Yes Equality (or the likes) have specific tasks that people can do, at specific times? The catchphrase "Public Meeting - Volunteers Required" kind of fills me with dread that I'll be guilt-tripped into spending more time than I have....and me trying to slink out of the meeting. Just a bit of definiteness would help I think.

Theres nothing definite.

You can put in as much time or as little as you have. Im not browbeating you personally. I am saying that the yes campaign needs people. People like me who will put in 10 or so hours a week and people like you who dont have as much time.

A recent Irish Times article explained this very eloquently.

Between here and May, those of us who passionately believe that gay and lesbian couples should have the right to get married, have a choice to make, do you actively engage in the campaign and help build that momentum or do you not?

Picture the referendum results day for a moment. You are watching the results on RTÉ’s referendum special. You can see the results flow in, constituency after constituency. Bryan Dobson says “It’s incredibly close, but the Yes side are losing”. The older commentators are drawing parallels to the 1995 divorce referendum. 50.3 per cent in favour to 49.7 per cent against, but this time it’s reversed. The referendum has been lost by less than 10,000 votes. Your heart sinks. You try to hold back the tears but you can’t. You let one tear out but the emotions just flood you mind and a hundred fall. You are gutted. That night you head to the George for what the complacent thought would be a victory party. You look around and you see the entire community is deflated. In the days and weeks ahead, all you can think about is, what if I had played a part, what if I had done a bit more. Thankfully it’s not too late.

To win the referendum the Yes side are going to need two things: money and people power. Rich or poor, young or old, gay or straight there is a role for everyone in this campaign.

Annasopra · 06-04-2015 10:04pm

Someone just pmed me to ask could they "borrow" my avatar.

I'd encourage everyone to use it

Annasopra · 07-04-2015 9:44pm

Neyite · 09-04-2015 12:13pm

I discovered that you can still apply to be included on the supplementary register by downloading a short form from your local county council.

If you submit it before the end of April, you'll be eligible to vote in this referendum. Spread the word!

ruaille buaille · 09-04-2015 1:19pm

Hi Everyone,

Can I please ask a genuine question? I am wondering why gay people would want to get married in a church because my view is that the Catholic church condemns gay relationships? I hope no-one feels offended by my question, for the record I feel that gay people should have equality and should be allowed to marry wherever they want.
Also, from your own viewpoint, If the marriage referendum passes will you then get married in a church or have a civil ceremony? (that is if you decide to get married obv!)

alaimacerc · 09-04-2015 1:35pm

ruaille buaille wrote: »

Can I please ask a genuine question? I am wondering why gay people would want to get married in a church because my view is that the Catholic church condemns gay relationships?

Hi ruaille; the referendum isn't about religious marriage; it's to do with making civil marriage equal. As opposed to having the "separate-but-not-equal" arrangements of (civil) marriage on the one hand, and civil partnership on the other. There would be no obligation on the church to conduct or recognise marriages they have objection to -- just as at present they're not obliged to remarry divorced people, whom they regard as still married to someone else, for example.

Neyite · 09-04-2015 2:29pm

ruaille buaille wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

Can I please ask a genuine question? I am wondering why gay people would want to get married in a church because my view is that the Catholic church condemns gay relationships? I hope no-one feels offended by my question, for the record I feel that gay people should have equality and should be allowed to marry wherever they want.
Also, from your own viewpoint, If the marriage referendum passes will you then get married in a church or have a civil ceremony? (that is if you decide to get married obv!)

Civil Partnerships are not the same as Civil Marriage. A civil partnership will afford a couple some rights that married couples benefit from, but not all, and there are some very important rights that gay partners are not legally entitled to even if they are a civil partner.

The referendum is absolutely nothing to do with a religious wedding of any denomination, its about opening up the existing civil marriage to same sex couples to avail of the same way that hetro couples do.

All religious ceremonies have the civil marriage bit built into the ceremony. In catholic weddings, you sign the register with witnesses at the end of the ceremony. That's the actual legal bit that makes you married, and its no different from the same process in the registry office. The state allowed the various religions to carry out this civil function as part of their religious wedding ceremonies.

In some religions, most notably Catholicism, and other forms of Christianity, same sex relationships is incompatible with church teachings, so they obviously wont be offering same sex weddings once SSM is legalised, but other religions, that are accepting of same sex relationships might offer them. But the referendum wont force religious groups to offer same sex weddings.

All the 'yes' side want is to be permitted to legally marry the person they fell in love with, and to have the same statutory rights and protections as a married couple just the way married couples currently do.

On the link I pasted above, there is an excel sheet you can download which outlines the differences between a partnership and a marriage.

Marriage Equality Referendum

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