Marriage Equality Referendum

SILVAMAN

Came across this article from 2 years back......food for thought

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/marriage-is-nothing-more-than-a-contract-%E2%80%93-bring-on-the-prenups-1166477-Nov2013/

alaimacerc

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I am really not convinced this will pass. I did a canvass tonight and it was 50/50.

Wow. On my last canvass it was more like 10:1! Of course, if you count the 'undecideds' as 'no', much more even. My feeling is that a lot of those are actually "won't bother my arse to vote at all"s, though.

There is also way too much complacency from yes voters who are convinced it will pass by a landslide and think their vote isn't needed.

I think so too. Or else that the "ah sures" on the doorstep are "polite maybes", or "cagey nos".

Annasopra

Canvassing does work. It really definitely does work. You are reaching committed yes voters and giving them a reminder. You are reaching undecided voters and connecting with them personally and convincing them to vote. You are reaching soft yeses who may not be motivated enough to vote and giving them some motivation to do so.

I would strongly reccomend everyone joins at least one canvass in the next 8 days. It's a positive experience. The vast majority of people on the doorsteps are friendly including even no voters.

www.yesequality.ie/canvass

Apogee

There's a very good article by Harry McGee in today's Irish Times on how important canvassing is ("“Making that personal connection can really change people’s opinions") and how effective it can be.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/marriage-referendum/personal-route-to-reach-public-central-to-yes-campaign-1.2211282

He also describes an example of how a 'no' voter was converted to a 'yes' voter based on one canvass - see the video.

So too have local Mullingar campaigners Shay Barkey and Richie Mulderry. Barkey says that at one door a man said he would vote No because he did not want to see two men or women kissing in a restaurant.

“We talked it through and he still said No. When we were leaving he made a point of following us in his car. He said ‘I think you were really nice and I have read the leaflet and I am going to vote Yes’. It was nice to know we had changed his mind.”

Aard

At least that guys was honest.

I figure that a lot of people don't want to see two guys holding hands, kissing, generally just being a couple. Voting no allows them to keep away such things they don't like.

ETA: one of the Prime Time debates highlighted that to the Iona chap. That most references to gay couples were to gay men and not women. I think there is a crack there that shows both a homophobic and sexist attitude towards men.

Cyclonus

I've got a bit of a shameful confession to make: I'm 33 and I've never voted before in my life. I've never cared about politics or politicians and I never really cared about any of the other referendums, but I'm determined to vote yes to this. I never changed my registered voting location so I'm going to have to take a bus from Athlone to Tyrrellspass, wait in line to vote, and then wait for two hours for a bus back. I'm STILL determined to vote yes. I'm straight and I don't know any gay people. I'M STILL DETERMINED TO VOTE YES.

Annasopra

Apogee wrote: »

There's a very good article by Harry McGee in today's Irish Times on how important canvassing is ("“Making that personal connection can really change people’s opinions") and how effective it can be.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/marriage-referendum/personal-route-to-reach-public-central-to-yes-campaign-1.2211282

He also describes an example of how a 'no' voter was converted to a 'yes' voter based on one canvass - see the video.

Exactly

Canvassing DOES make a differrence and will win it for us

Join us

www.yesequality.ie/canvass

Pai Mei

Question, now I don't know the statistics of how many lgbt people there are in Ireland, but lets say they all voted yes. Now lets also say that at least a few of their friends and hopefully their family also votes yes. Would all those people be enough for a win?

Vojera

Pai Mei wrote: »

Question, now I don't know the statistics of how many lgbt people there are in Ireland, but lets say they all voted yes. Now lets also say that at least a few of their friends and hopefully their family also votes yes. Would all those people be enough for a win?

I doubt it. A study by the ESRI back in 2006 (page 126) estimated that 2.7% of men and 1.2% of women self-identified as gay or bisexual. The actual figure is probably a little higher - the figures indicate about 5-6% report having a same-sex experience,, some people don't like to label themselves as gay/lesbian/bisexual, it was almost 10 years ago and attitudes have changed a lot even in that short time, and I haven't looked at their methodology to see how robust their sample and questions were.

So, for ease of maths, let's say 5% of the population is what we're looking at. If we say that all 5% of the electorate vote yes, and then say that another five people for each of those vote yes, that's still only 30% of the electorate with a yes vote.

Obviously it's quite a bit more complicated than that. A lot depends on who goes out to vote - people who support the idea but aren't personally affected are more likely to say "Ah, I was going to vote after I did the shopping but it's getting a bit late now so I'll just head home instead" than people who are militantly against the idea of marriage equality.

There are so many factors that could affect the outcome - like the fact that so many emigrants are of the younger and more likely to vote yes generation. I'm hopeful but not confident.

gravehold

I live in the limerick countryside and there is way more yes posters on the poles, how can the yes side afford more posters then theno campaign?

Aard

All those “No” people/organisations are based in affluent south Dublin. The better for access to RTÉ y’know.

Vojera

gravehold wrote: »

I live in the limerick countryside and there is way more yes posters on the poles, how can the yes side afford more posters then theno campaign?

It's nothing to do with money - maybe the yes group in the area are just more active than the no group.

I have noticed in my own area that there are yes posters in housing estates but no posters on the main roads - they just seem to have targeted different areas.

J_E

Vojera wrote: »

It's nothing to do with money - maybe the yes group in the area are just more active than the no group.

It kind of does though. Posters don't come cheap.

Vojera

J_E wrote: »

It kind of does though. Posters don't come cheap.

The YesEquality campaign have been fundraising for quite a while to pay for these posters.

You also need to consider that all the major political parties are campaigning for a yes vote, which means that there are YesEquality, Fine Gael, Labour, Sinn Féin, Fianna Fail and Anti-Austerity Alliance groups all putting up posters (and those are just the groups I've seen).

On the contrary, I've only seen no posters by Mothers and Fathers Matter.

So that's six groups of yes posters and one group of no posters. I don't consider that being about money, just that proportionally there are more groups in favour of a yes vote.

hotmail.com

National canvass day on Saturday for the Yes vote at 11am.

Search facebook/twitter for your local Yes Equality branch if you want to get involved

Annasopra

gravehold wrote: »

I live in the limerick countryside and there is way more yes posters on the poles, how can the yes side afford more posters then theno campaign?

I don't believe you

Yes Equality bought 50,000 posters.

Mothers and Fathers Matter bought 450,000.

Aard

Shocking difference.

It pays to have money!

L1011

gravehold wrote: »

I live in the limerick countryside and there is way more yes posters on the poles, how can the yes side afford more posters then theno campaign?

There are multiple Yes campaigns erecting signs - YesEquality, Labour, FG, FF, SF, AAA. Many of them are fairly simplistic, two colour jobs (FF and some AAA ones particularly)

There is one No campaign erecting signs, hower they are using large, full colour posters.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

Unbiased answers from Judge Kevin Cross of the Referendum Commission: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/confused-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-marriage-referendum-1.2212840

Hoping this reaches a few undecideds and maybe even shows some nos the mistruths they've been fed.

L1011

Prime Time right now is doing much the same thing - explaining that the No side is scare-storying about things that are not affected by the referendum at all.

alaimacerc

Anyone catch the Drivetime segment/debate? Yer man from "Keep Marriage" -- though are these "different" no orgs meaningfully distinct, anyway? -- Barry Jones was pretty full-on. He didn't quite say "vote no because God says so", but everything but. Voting yes would be "putting a lie into the constitution", and such like. Wow.

The fellah from the "separate" outfit "Mothers and Fathers Matter" was obviously trying to play good cop, in contrast. Or at least, tendentiously legalistic cop. Usual stuff about a "right" to surrogacy arising -- which if it were true, would be a better argument against the status quo, than it would be on the referendum measure.

alaimacerc

Aard wrote: »

ETA: one of the Prime Time debates highlighted that to the Iona chap. That most references to gay couples were to gay men and not women. I think there is a crack there that shows both a homophobic and sexist attitude towards men.

Not to get too hung up on semantics and exercises in definism, I'm not sure I'd call this "sexism", which is almost to imply a net disadvantage to gay men as against lesbians across the board. (Or to men as against women more broadly, even.)

But there's definitely a massive genderedness to the homophobia going on here. I'm reminded, perhaps inappropriately, of an Aaron Sorkin character saying "I’m homophobic in the way that makes sense." Male-male relationships are seen as personally threatening and destructive to the social order in a way that female-female relationships are not.

It's of course all bound up in gender roles and gender stereotyping more generally, in a way I couldn't begin to try and unpack at this hour... or probably even given a few decades at it.

J_E

It all mostly unwraps to a disgust of two men holding hands or the image of them having sex. Females get erased because they're not as icky.

L1011

J_E wrote: »

It all mostly unwraps to a disgust of two men holding hands or the image of them having sex. Females get erased because they're not as icky.

Bingo. One of the Burke's even tried to drag a radio debate down to discussing actual sexual intercourse - but only between men.

Trying to push the "ewww, icky" line to heterosexual men rather falls apart if its two women, based on what the media has told them for 20+ years!

In other news, an explanation of why Ursula Halligan hasn't been doing coverage for TV3:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ursula-halligan-referendum-pointed-me-towards-telling-the-truth-about-myself-1.2212960

SILVAMAN

Maureen Gaffney has the Catholic purists up in arms as she calls a spade a spade. Aplogies for the posting being from a Catholic rag.....

http://www.catholicireland.net/anger-psychologist-likens-voters-nazis/

and a well known journalist comes out

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/ursula-halligan-referendum-pointed-me-towards-telling-the-truth-about-myself-1.2212960

Aard

alaimacerc wrote: »

Not to get too hung up on semantics and exercises in definism, I'm not sure I'd call this "sexism", which is almost to imply a net disadvantage to gay men as against lesbians across the board. (Or to men as against women more broadly, even.)

I never implied anything about gay men being globally more disadvantaged than gay women. Men can still suffer from sexism, even if women suffer from more often.

It boils down to – yuck, men kissing each other. Or yuck, two men as parents.

Lesbian parents and the idea of two women holding hands in the street doesn't come up as often as something objectionable.

opus

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

Was this in provincial Ireland or the big cities?

Hopefully I won't draw the ire of any Corkonians but I wouldn't class Cork as a big city

I've since procured the same badge for myself as it happens & noticed one of neighbours sporting the 'Yes' version of it.

Aurongroove

You could simplify it further.

When men 'choose' to be gay they are disgusting and irresponsible.
When women 'choose' to be gay, they're just being silly.

The bible informs us that women can always be shook or slapped into 'seeing sense' by a responsible and caring father or husband. Their homosexuality is not as corrosive to a healthy and normal society; it's just a sign that a male disciplinarian has neglected his duties to this woman and allowed her to run away with herself. It's a domestic issue rather then a social one.


But when a man chooses to be gay? well he should know better, how disgusting the things he gets up to.
What a disgrace to society.

Ash885

Fair play to Ursula!

Aard

Yep, great piece by her in the IT. Wonder how it will go down with the “undecided” voters.

J_E

Colm Tóibín's piece is also incredible...

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/colm-t%C3%B3ib%C3%ADn-the-same-sex-marriage-referendum-and-the-embrace-of-love-1.2212702

Ozymandius2011

Aurongroove wrote: »

You could simplify it further.

When men 'choose' to be gay they are disgusting and irresponsible.
When women 'choose' to be gay, they're just being silly.

The bible informs us that women can always be shook or slapped into 'seeing sense' by a responsible and caring father or husband. Their homosexuality is not as corrosive to a healthy and normal society; it's just a sign that a male disciplinarian has neglected his duties to this woman and allowed her to run away with herself. It's a domestic issue rather then a social one.


But when a man chooses to be gay? well he should know better, how disgusting the things he gets up to.
What a disgrace to society.

no-one chooses to be gay its genetic

Aard

I think Aurongroove was implying that certain people (homophobic maybe?) sincerely do believe that being gay is a choice.

gravehold

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

no-one chooses to be gay its genetic

There is no gay gene though, gentic isn't the right word to use.

SILVAMAN

Kudos to Noel Whelan for this piece


http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/noel-whelan-remember-real-people-when-you-vote-in-marriage-referendum-1.2212955

Aurongroove

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

no-one chooses to be gay its genetic

In case you're not Trolling, I was very obviously quoting the word 'chooses'.

Yes of course the earth is round, yes of course we are the result of evolution, and yes of course nobody chooses to be gay.

hotmail.com

Ursula's story is so sad but with a positive ending if she can influence others in her generation to come out.

She seems like a lovely, gentle person. I was really moved by her Anton Savage interview. How could anyone deny her the right to get married?

Leonard Hofstadter

Even wee Daniel is on board! That might just make Donegal break tradition and actually pass a referendum for once in their lives!

With this, the various independent bodies (RefCom and Adoption Agency) rubbishing the No side's claims, not to mention Ursula Halligan's heartbreaking piece in the Irish Times today, the past few days have been very good for the Yes side, especially after the whole non-story about Accord (they also cut the funding to Barnardos, but that wasn't reported at all) not to mention the appalling egging of that child at some No event in Meath earlier on in the week. I didn't even know the state funded Catholic marriage courses until this came out, if I lived in Ireland and someone came to my door asking me for their vote I would be asking them would they get rid of the funding for such a thing, because I don't believe that religion and the state should mix.

Having Daniel O'Donnell saying yes is a big plus, no doubt about it, that might be enough to persuade the older and more conservative voter to change their mind - here's hoping anyway!

There will be a poll published tomorrow (it's that time of the month for the RedC tracking poll, although they're doing it slightly earlier than usual this month obviously with the referendum), in one sense I don't want the Yes side to be too far ahead, if it was tight it would persuade the Yes side to do all they can as it would remove any complacency, though it could equally be argued that if it looks close tomorrow it will give the No side a real boost.

Either way, the biggest danger by a country mile is complacency and if the poll tomorrow says the Yes side will walk it then my worry is a lot of people (especially younger voters, whose turnout is absolutely critical in getting this passed) will think there's no point in voting and we could end up with a shock defeat. Polls can, and do, get it wrong, as the British General Election has shown.

L1011

The UK poll was within a margin of error - FPTP makes minor changes violent. However we've bad history of late swings here in referenda.

Leonard Hofstadter

Good news, the Yes side is still well ahead in the latest Irish Times poll. It will be interesting to see if this is backed up by the RedC poll which will come out around 6 pm (possibly a little before that).

The BIG danger is complacency and people thinking they don't need to vote because it's going to be carried! Young people are most in favour but traditionally don't vote in big numbers. Older voters are less supportive and they are more likely to vote! There's still a big debate on Prime Time on Tuesday night, not sure who's on it, but I hope the Yes side presents its case well. If there are a few nutters from the No side (e.g. someone from 'Mandate for Marriage') or Paddy Monaghan (the man who said 'gays have equality as they can marry someone of the opposite sex :eek: ), then all the better. Hopefully we'll see someone like Noel Whelan or Una Mullally out for the Yes side.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/marriage-referendum-good-news-for-yes-campaign-1.2214430

J_E

This week's Ireland account on Twitter is being curated by an Iona member. How twisted is that, coming so close to the referendum? It was so absurd when I first read it that I could not help but think money was passed, it was just that outrageous. I get it, they wanted a no voter after the yes voter, but the best they could find was a member of that malicious lot?

gravehold

J_E wrote: »

This week's Ireland account on Twitter is being curated by an Iona member. How twisted is that, coming so close to the referendum? It was so absurd when I first read it that I could not help but think money was passed, it was just that outrageous. I get it, they wanted a no voter after the yes voter, but the best they could find was a member of that malicious lot?

Wasn't there a total left wing nut running it last week on about not raising her boys as boys and was a yes voter, it's only fair they have the opposite of that the next week.

J_E

gravehold wrote: »

Wasn't there a total left wing nut running it last week on about not raising her boys as boys and was a yes voter, it's only fair they have the opposite of that the next week.

It should never been politicised in the way it has, but last week's speaker, Dil, is a hell of a lot more moderate than a representative of the Iona Institute, whose main goal for the week is to peddle a No vote, and of course failing to mention in the bio who he's affiliated with.

gravehold

J_E wrote: »

It should never been politicised in the way it has, but last week's speaker, Dil, is a hell of a lot more moderate than a representative of the Iona Institute, whose main goal for the week is to peddle a No vote, and of course failing to mention in the bio who he's affiliated with.

You think she was moderate she is a prime example of why moderates will vote no, she did a lot of damage to the yes campaign with her idiotic views on child raising.

Just hope the iona person does a good a job at cocking it up

J_E

gravehold wrote: »

You think she was moderate she is a prime example of why moderates will vote no, she did a lot of damage to the yes campaign with her idiotic views on child raising.

You clearly don't know Dil then - I think that's pretty rude to be honest.

Aard

Aard wrote: »

It boils down to – yuck, men kissing each other. Or yuck, two men as parents.

Agreed. And this is clearly borne out by the No campaign's posters ... "A Mother's Love Is Irreplaceable", "She Needs Her Mother For Life, Not Just For 9 Months" and (this one's really drives their point home) "Two Men Can't Replace A Mother's Love".

gravehold

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. And this is clearly borne out by the No campaign's posters ... "A Mother's Love Is Irreplaceable", "She Needs Her Mother For Life, Not Just For 9 Months" and (this one's really drives their point home) "Two Men Can't Replace A Mother's Love".

At least we are finally learning mothers don't matter and can ban breastfeeding in public cause it's not needed for the child also the courts can fimally stop favouring moms in divorce cases.

Leonard Hofstadter

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. And this is clearly borne out by the No campaign's posters ... "A Mother's Love Is Irreplaceable", "She Needs Her Mother For Life, Not Just For 9 Months" and (this one's really drives their point home) "Two Men Can't Replace A Mother's Love".

By that logic the best families are the ones with two mothers :rolleyes::rolleyes:. It's also very discriminatory against men, first time in a very long time where men are being told we're not good enough.

I am VERY disappointed by this article in the Indo, the plan was for Leo Varadkar to bat for the Yes side on Prime Time on Tuesday until Labour got their knickers in a twist over it. Just when I thought we were doing a great job, Labour decides to play politics. I've defended Labour in the past and I admire them for pushing the referendum in the first place, but I've lost a lot of respect for them over this. You'd think they'd know better having two gay TDs.

It's not about politics, it's about real people and clearly given Varadkar's life experiences he would have been a much better asset for the Yes side on Tuesday. Not only that, but Leo is liked by middle Ireland, who admire the fact that he's straight up about his opinions and doesn't just peddle whatever nonsense the Government wanted peddled. Leo would have done a much better job at winning over those who are still undecided - plenty of middle Ireland still has to be won over yet not withstanding the very good Irish Times poll. Even if it was John Lyons or Dominic Hannigan that wouldn't have been so bad, obviously they're both out and proud, and the key to the Yes side's success is the personal stories and appealing to peoples' inner decency, like overwhelming support Ursula Halligan has received for coming out yesterday. The undecided / anti-LGBT rights people need to see more 'celebrities' like this advocating a Yes vote and sharing their stories and the discrimination they've felt, and making people realise that LGBT people are no different to the rest of us, and have the same hopes and aspirations as straight people.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/referendum/varadkar-is-frozen-out-of-referendum-debate-despite-protests-from-rt-chiefs-31227217.html

L.Jenkins

The fúck! Organised by none other than the Catholic Alliance for the Defence of the Family and Marriage group of course.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/dutch-psychologist-links-homosexuality-to-conspiracy-theories-1.2213033

ixoy

Itzy wrote: »

The fúck! Organised by none other than the Catholic Alliance for the Defence of the Family and Marriage group of course.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/dutch-psychologist-links-homosexuality-to-conspiracy-theories-1.2213033

I linked to that in another thread but it deserves repeating. It shows who a major No organisation side align with, in between accusations of being bullied.