College and Firearms

Heckler

As part of a college course I'm doing I have to do a presentation. I proposed to do mine on target shooting. As a visual aid I asked could I bring in a 22 rifle and a 22 pistol. Firing mechanisms removed and no ammunition.

College management said no "under no circumstances" could firearms be brought on campus as firearms present "an unexceptable risk to public health and safety".

To me this is a generic knee-jerk reaction to firearms. A 22 rifle with the bolt out is as dangerous as a hurley which another student is and will be using in a presentation.

Never going to change their minds. Still going ahead with the presentation where I'm allowed to bring in replicas but thought I'd have a chance to maybe turn at least a few people to the idea that we are not all gun wielding nuts.

Not that I'd do it but if I was to bring in the real firearms and call them replicas no one in the class would be the wiser.

Agree with the college or not ?

the_syco

You may make people think that you are infact a

Heckler wrote: »

gun wielding nuts.

if you

Heckler wrote: »

bring in the real firearms and call them replicas no one in the class would be the wiser.

because it only takes one. Also, if they had a garda nearby, you may get into trouble. Best just get an airsoft replica.

Sparks

So (a) if it's UCD or TCD they might want to remember they have a range on campus
And (b) if you take out the mechanism, you still legally have a firearm; that might impact on their insurance policy (insurers are generally about as liberally minded as Fox News).

In terms of actual safety, you and I know it's silly, but from their point of view, they have a student who has assured them the firearm is safe and they don't know enough to be able to competently verify that independently -- but they still have a legal duty of care and they're being risk-averse in dealing with that.

Honestly, don't try to take it personally; this is some legal wonk in a department somewhere that's painted a worst case scenario to them and they're just going with that because they pay that wonk and they don't pay you.

Heckler

Sparks wrote: »

So (a) if it's UCD or TCD they might want to remember they have a range on campus
And (b) if you take out the mechanism, you still legally have a firearm; that might impact on their insurance policy (insurers are generally about as liberally minded as Fox News).

In terms of actual safety, you and I know it's silly, but from their point of view, they have a student who has assured them the firearm is safe and they don't know enough to be able to competently verify that independently -- but they still have a legal duty of care and they're being risk-averse in dealing with that.

Honestly, don't try to take it personally; this is some legal wonk in a department somewhere that's painted a worst case scenario to them and they're just going with that because they pay that wonk and they don't pay you.

Points accepted. Just thought it would be a good situation where people could see and maybe handle firearms in a safe environment. Thanks Sparks for what you did today. I know members of my club know you and were rooting for you. You did great. Appreciate it.

Heckler

the_syco wrote: »

You may make people think that you are infact a

if you

because it only takes one. Also, if they had a garda nearby, you may get into trouble. Best just get an airsoft replica.

I said I'd never bring in a real firearm just a replica.

Gatling

Heckler wrote: »

I said I'd never bring in a real firearm just a replica.

Brandishing a RIF (realistic imitation firearm ) /airsoft in a public place is illegal in itself

Heckler

Gatling wrote: »

Brandishing a RIF (realistic imitation firearm ) /airsoft in a public place is illegal in itself

Not brandishing. Using as a prop. A tutor in my college told me it was no problem. Akin to using an airsoft in a school/play.

Please don't be so anal as to tell me you have to go to the local superintendant to use an airsoft in a school play. Not when you can buy an RIF M14 and run around in a designated area with no Garda permission.

Brandishing implys ill intent.

Gatling

Heckler wrote: »

Not brandishing. Using as a prop. A tutor in my college told me it was no problem. Akin to using an airsoft in a school/play.

Please don't be so anal as to tell me you have to go to the local superintendant to use an airsoft in a school play. Not when you can buy an RIF M14 and run around in a designated area with no Garda permission.

Brandishing implys ill intent.

Actually you do need garda permission to use airsoft in a designated area such as a skirmish site or indoor range ,
Nothing to do with been anal

cerastes

Heckler wrote: »

I said I'd never bring in a real firearm just a replica.

You did say you proposed to bring in a .22 rifle and .22 pistol?
I dont really think these are appropriate or necessary or really considered secure to be just bringing around the place in college. You will get too much unnecessary interest and it could all be very easily interpreted wrongly.
I dont think the actual implements of the sport are needed or suitable in an Irish setting or even imitations. I seriously doubt many or any would consider it appropriate to bring a pistol? it looks like you are suggesting a real .22 pistol to me into a presentation, to be what? passed around as people expect if an item is brought to a presentation.
I dont think pistol owners would think its a suitable thing or venue (Im sure the Gardai would love to hear your opinions on the later, that might suit them down to the ground). I wouldnt compromise my own security by having it known by mentioning something like this uneccesarily.
It can all be interpreted the wrong way and turned into bad press, or worse.

Heckler wrote: »

As part of a college course I'm doing I have to do a presentation. I proposed to do mine on target shooting. As a visual aid I asked could I bring in a 22 rifle and a 22 pistol. Firing mechanisms removed and no ammunition.

College management said no "under no circumstances" could firearms be brought on campus as firearms present "an unexceptable risk to public health and safety".

To me this is a generic knee-jerk reaction to firearms. A 22 rifle with the bolt out is as dangerous as a hurley which another student is and will be using in a presentation.

Never going to change their minds. Still going ahead with the presentation where I'm allowed to bring in replicas but thought I'd have a chance to maybe turn at least a few people to the idea that we are not all gun wielding nuts.

Not that I'd do it but if I was to bring in the real firearms and call them replicas no one in the class would be the wiser.

Agree with the college or not ?

Maybe it is a generic knee jerk reaction? but I think its better to take a safe than sorry attitude rather than, its only as dangerous as a hurley, that seems a bit reckless, it has the potential to be dangerous, more so than a hurley and the potential to endanger other peoples sport too.

Heckler

Yeah i do propose passing around a safe pistol and rifle to people who may never have had the chance to do so before. Whats the problem when I'm lecturing on gun safety. The firearms would be cased in such a manner that noonw outside the class would know what they are. As soon as the presentation was over they would be put back in a gun safe.

FISMA

Heckler wrote: »

A tutor in my college told me it was no problem.

Verbal statements can easily be retracted later: "No Gardai, Heckler must have misunderstood me, I told him Not to bring them in."

If you source has the authority to grant permission, request an email stating so. You'll soon find out where you really stand.

If you wanted to have a presentation, perhaps, the class could arrange to meet at the range?

Heckler

cerastes wrote: »

You did say you proposed to bring in a .22 rifle and .22 pistol?
I dont really think these are appropriate or necessary or really considered secure to be just bringing around the place in college. You will get too much unnecessary interest and it could all be very easily interpreted wrongly.
I dont think the actual implements of the sport are needed or suitable in an Irish setting or even imitations. I seriously doubt many or any would consider it appropriate to bring a pistol? it looks like you are suggesting a real .22 pistol to me into a presentation, to be what? passed around as people expect if an item is brought to a presentation.
I dont think pistol owners would think its a suitable thing or venue (Im sure the Gardai would love to hear your opinions on the later, that might suit them down to the ground). I wouldnt compromise my own security by having it known by mentioning something like this uneccesarily.
It can all be interpreted the wrong way and turned into bad press, or worse.



Maybe it is a generic knee jerk reaction? but I think its better to take a safe than sorry attitude rather than, its only as dangerous as a hurley, that seems a bit reckless, it has the potential to be dangerous, more so than a hurley and the potential to endanger other peoples sport too.

Would you have any objection to a hurler showing a hurley in a presentation because thats how harmful a rifle with its firing mechanism removed is ?

Heckler

FISMA wrote: »

Verbal statements can easily be retracted later: "No Gardai, Heckler must have misunderstood me, I told him Not to bring them in."

If you source has the authority to grant permission, request an email stating so. You'll soon find out where you really stand.

If you wanted to have a presentation, perhaps, the class could arrange to meet at the range?

After being told I couldn"t take in real firearms i was assured replicas were OK. As for meeting at the range, distance impossible and having 20 people who have never even seen a firearm up close never mind held and fired one.....sorry but makes my proposal of firearms with firing mechanisms removed seem sane.

Sorry didn"t mean to be rude but bringing a class to a range brings up so many variables as to be unworkable. Love as I would like to do it.

cerastes

Heckler wrote: »

Yeah i do propose passing around a safe pistol and rifle to people who may never have had the chance to do so before. Whats the problem when I'm lecturing on gun safety. The firearms would be cased in such a manner that noonw outside the class would know what they are. As soon as the presentation was over they would be put back in a gun safe.

You seem annoyed, Im giving you my opinion.
I dont know if youre being snarky or serious, but as you say "safe" Im interpreting serious.
The place to be handing firearms around is in a safe setting (a range) where individuals are brought to it, where it is cleared and pointing in a safe direction.
If the presentation is on a range, then to me thats ok.
If its not intended to be, Are you going to clear it everytime to show each person it is safe? If it is cased, whats the point? if attached to the case but its open, that seems an unwieldy thing to pass around.

The problem is, to me, I dont think its appropriate, and your replies dont give me confidence that you are qualified to do this, no offence intended, but you seem annoyed that this opinion has been given, without seeing there might be possible problems.

All that pales in comparison to even mentioning bringing a pistol to use as a display. It just opens the door to too many negative possibilities.
ie imagine someone else removes it from its case and brandishes it, its pictured and goes around social media?

You said you were doing a presentation, now you are lecturing?
I suspect word might get around rapidly if you proposed to do this and did.

As soon as the presentation is over they go back in a gun safe? how? you have to get through the entire college I presume, vehicle, then home, then safe, unless you have a portable safe.
I have more than a passing interest in shooting, this just doesnt seem an appropriate way to do it, by all means give a presentation, I just dont think the implements of the sport need to be physically there.
Personally I wouldnt announce this to people.

cerastes

Heckler wrote: »

Would you have any objection to a hurler showing a hurley in a presentation because thats how harmful a rifle with its firing mechanism removed is ?

Im not talking about just if someone brought in a .22 round they came across, although, who knows.
If someone clobbered another with a hurley, the person will be reported as doing so in any rag, if someone grabs a rifle or even worse a pistol and decides to have a laugh and get some snaps on social media, the whole sport will be admonished.

I dont take it lightly than someone may get a hold of the firearm and may get a hold of a .22 round from somewehere else, thats serious but its probably unlikely.

The harm Im thinking of is that this could do to a sport is more a serious likely concern,also that you are suggesting you are licensed to have a pistol and would so lightly consider taking it out in public, Im not even sure that is allowed unless you are going to and from an authorised range.

Its unfortunate if our opinions dont coincide but this is my opinion.

Heckler

cerastes wrote: »

You seem annoyed, Im giving you my opinion.
I dont know if youre being snarky or serious, but as you say "safe" Im interpreting serious.
The place to be handing firearms around is in a safe setting (a range) where individuals are brought to it, where it is cleared and pointing in a safe direction.
If the presentation is on a range, then to me thats ok.
If its not intended to be, Are you going to clear it everytime to show each person it is safe? If it is cased, whats the point? if attached to the case but its open, that seems an unwieldy thing to pass around.

The problem is, to me, I dont think its appropriate, and your replies dont give me confidence that you are qualified to do this, no offence intended, but you seem annoyed that this opinion has been given, without seeing there might be possible problems.

All that pales in comparison to even mentioning bringing a pistol to use as a display. It just opens the door to too many negative possibilities.
ie imagine someone else removes it from its case and brandishes it, its pictured and goes around social media?

You said you were doing a presentation, now you are lecturing?
I suspect word might get around rapidly if you proposed to do this and did.

As soon as the presentation is over they go back in a gun safe? how? you have to get through the entire college I presume, vehicle, then home, then safe, unless you have a portable safe.
I have more than a passing interest in shooting, this just doesnt seem an appropriate way to do it, by all means give a presentation, I just dont think the implements of the sport need to be physically there.
Personally I wouldnt announce this to people.

Hey,

Not annoyed at all.

No I'm no kind of lecturer. I'm a responsible firearms owner of many years. A qualified range officer and member of a gun club for many years shooting rifle and pistol.

There is no possibility someone could "brandish" a pistol of mine. Because I wouldn"t allow it. As for transport have you ever travelled with a firearm for competition ? what do you do ? Teleport it ?

Whats wrong with using a pistol as an example of our sport ? Would you stop a golfer showing a club ?

cerastes

Heckler wrote: »

Hey,

Not annoyed at all.

No I'm no kind of lecturer. I'm a responsible firearms owner of many years. A qualified range officer and member of a gun club for many years shooting rifle and pistol.

There is no possibility someone could "brandish" a pistol of mine. Because I wouldn"t allow it. As for transport have you ever travelled with a firearm for competition ? what do you do ? Teleport it ?

Whats wrong with using a pistol as an example of our sport ? Would you stop a golfer showing a club ?

I just dont think its a good idea, I actually think its a bad idea, Im not even sure it is allowed, was sure there is something about bringing firearms to and from shooting venues only.

Heckler

To answer your question in more depth.

The firearms minus firing mechanisms would have been brought into the college in hard cases. i.e. noone would have known what they were.

After the presentation I would have permission to leave the college, drive the 5 mins home and secure them back in a gun safe.

Don't presume to educate me on gun safety or storage.

Heckler

cerastes wrote: »

I just dont think its a good idea, I actually think its a bad idea, Im not even sure it is allowed, was sure there is something about bringing firearms to and from shooting venues only.

No. Read the terms of your license. To have in your possession, use and carry..............nothing about shooting venues

cerastes

Heckler wrote: »

To answer your question in more depth.

The firearms minus firing mechanisms would have been brought into the college in hard cases. i.e. noone would have known what they were.

After the presentation I would have permission to leave the college, drive the 5 mins home and secure them back in a gun safe.

Don't presume to educate me on gun safety or storage.

Honestly, you seem annoyed,
I am giving my opinion, not trying to educate people.
I just think there is too much potential for it to be misrepresented or misinterpreted. Its too current a concern also.

It would be great if it was possible to be more open and if people were not that bothered, it is probably a great idea, in some other country where a different attitude prevails, but here, here my cynicism takes over.

Heckler

All down to why you need the gun. I can't have one for hunting, you may have one for that but not target shooting.

Witcher

I can't believe a firearms owner would even consider this, especially given the current climate. Imagine the if the newspapers got a hold of it. Do you think they'd overlook a golden headline of; 'Man brings weapon onto college campus'? They would stir up all sorts of comparisons to the US.

Heckler wrote: »

Whats wrong with using a pistol as an example of our sport ? Would you stop a golfer showing a club ?

People normally aren't afraid of golf clubs as they are firearms.

There is nothing wrong with representing firearms as safe, legal etc. but a lecture hall isn't the place for it. Maybe it would be if we were in Switzerland but this is Ireland, a country where the licencing authority is curently seeking to ban pistols, if not all firearms outright.

Imagine if it went wrong...in the current climate you would be putting the final nail in the coffin of pistols in Ireland.

Heckler

cerastes wrote: »

Honestly, you seem annoyed,
I am giving my opinion, not trying to educate people.
I just think there is too much potential for it to be misrepresented or misinterpreted. Its too current a concern also.

It would be great if it was possible to be more open and if people were not that bothered, it is probably a great idea, in some other country where a different attitude prevails, but here, here my cynicism takes over.

Hey,

I am annoyed. The whole area is a minefield. I think we are on the same page generally ! I'm not trying to be argumentative but I'm pissed at this proposed leglistation thats going to kill us all in shooting.

Mellor

Heckler wrote: »

Would you have any objection to a hurler showing a hurley in a presentation because thats how harmful a rifle with its firing mechanism removed is ?

Do you really think that he only concern is how physically harmful it is?

For example, do you think it would be acceptable to walk into the bank with a 22 pistol (Firing mechanisms removed and no ammunition), on the grounds that the Johnny from the Hurling team had his hurl with him last week?

You know its safe, the lecturer knows, and your class knows (or will know after you inform them). But there's other factors outside your control. And it only takes one person, to see something and jump to the wrong conclusion to cause a major problem for all involved.

challengemaster

Heckler wrote: »

I'm a responsible firearms owner of many years. A qualified range officer and member of a gun club for many years shooting rifle and pistol.

Whats wrong with using a pistol as an example of our sport ? Would you stop a golfer showing a club ?

You may be too invested in the sport to think like someone with no experience. The first thought of a firearm is always going to be thought of as a (potentially lethal) weapon rather than sporting equipment.

Golf clubs have not historically been developed and used as weapons to fight wars and kill millions of people. Golf clubs are not used by armies across the world on a daily basis. You don't need a garda issued licence to own a golf club.

You're correct that in a disabled state both a firearm and golf club would essentially be as dangerous as the other. Public perception is the difference. Either way if you feel you need a visual aid, I suggest working on your presentation skills. Firearm, golf club or otherwise if you are relying on that your presentation skills are lacking.

Considering for a second you're in college; I doubt your fellow classmates actually think every person in Ireland or indeed the world is a gun toting nutcase intent on killing everyone. I'd be of the opinion that shooting as a sport is quite popular in Ireland, particularly outside the pale, so plenty of people would know a little about it or at the very most that it exists. Taking a defensive approach and assuming everyone sees gun owners as "nuts" I feel you'll only do the sport more harm than good.

Heckler

Strider wrote: »

I can't believe a firearms owner would even consider this, especially given the current climate. Imagine the if the newspapers got a hold of it. Do you think they'd overlook a golden headline of; 'Man brings weapon onto college campus'? They would stir up all sorts of comparisons to the US.



People normally aren't afraid of golf clubs as they are firearms.

There is nothing wrong with representing firearms as safe, legal etc. but a lecture hall isn't the place for it. Maybe it would be if we were in Switzerland but this is Ireland, a country where the licencing authority is curently seeking to ban pistols, if not all firearms outright.

Imagine if it went wrong...in the current climate you would be putting the final nail in the coffin of pistols in Ireland.

I see where you are going. But how are we ever going to educate the population ? Todays Oireachtas committees were great but who saw it outside of shooters ?

I\m in a small class that 11 would have never seen a couple of firearms if it wasn't allowed.

You say that you can't believe a firearms holder would even consider it etc. Ya know what ? the time is done to be hiding away in the back, afraid to say yeah I like guns and shooting, not for any olympic aspirations but just for the hell of it.

I'm going to shoot away, make my submissions, protestations etc and see what happens but I'm not going to be made feel anymore that shooting is some kind of underground or subersive activity because its not. Friends look at me odd for shooting, I look at them odd for clambering on a bike in lycra at 42. Each to their own

Heckler

challengemaster wrote: »

You may be too invested in the sport to think like someone with no experience. The first thought of a firearm is always going to be thought of as a (potentially lethal) weapon rather than sporting equipment.

Golf clubs have not historically been developed and used as weapons to fight wars and kill millions of people. Golf clubs are not used by armies across the world on a daily basis. You don't need a garda issued licence to own a golf club.

You're correct that in a disabled state both a firearm and golf club would essentially be as dangerous as the other. Public perception is the difference. Either way if you feel you need a visual aid, I suggest working on your presentation skills. Firearm, golf club or otherwise if you are relying on that your presentation skills are lacking.

Considering for a second you're in college; I doubt your fellow classmates actually think every person in Ireland or indeed the world is a gun toting nutcase intent on killing everyone. I'd be of the opinion that shooting as a sport is quite popular in Ireland, particularly outside the pale, so plenty of people would know a little about it or at the very most that it exists. Taking a defensive approach and assuming everyone sees gun owners as "nuts" I feel you'll only do the sport more harm than good.

And what wrong with giving maybe a 5 minute introduction into target shooting, explaining the introduction of some safe firearms and passing them to those who are interested ? If you don't want to handle them pass. In all my experience of shooting and bringing people who have never done it to give it a go I have a 100% pass rate of people loving it. And 50% of those were very dubious to begin. Normally clay shooting. All left with a smile on their face.

challengemaster

Heckler wrote: »

And what wrong with giving maybe a 5 minute introduction into target shooting

Clearly there's nothing wrong with this as you already got approval for this topic from your lecturer/tutor/whatever.

You seem to be missing the point, however, you do not need a physical firearm present to conduct a presentation.

In all my experience of shooting and bringing people who have never done it to give it a go I have a 100% pass rate of people loving it. And 50% of those were very dubious to begin. Normally clay shooting. All left with a smile on their face.

Again - It's a presentation on target shooting. It's not the intention that you'll to be teaching your classmates to shoot. You're presenting INFORMATION on a topic. More than likely the whole point is to improve your presentation skills. There's no reason to have a firearm present.

Heckler

challengemaster wrote: »

Clearly there's nothing wrong with this as you already got approval for this topic from your lecturer/tutor/whatever.

You seem to be missing the point, however, you do not need a physical firearm present to conduct a presentation.



Again - It's a presentation on target shooting. It's not the intention that you'll to be teaching your classmates to shoot. You're presenting INFORMATION on a topic. More than likely the whole point is to improve your presentation skills. There's no reason to have a firearm present.

Nope reason no. But many people have never even seen a firearm up close never mind held one and I thought it might add to the presentation. I still do.

Compare maybe to looking at a high end car and being able to sit in and rev the engine or something. I dunno. Just thought it would add to a presentation if people could hold and get a feel of real firearms in a safe way.

When I put forward my idea the class liked it and when the college refused me they were disappointed.

I don't need firearms of course but I thought they would enhance the presentation. Like I said If it were golf clubs there would be no problem but the general perception of the evil gun and its a no.

Don't even pretend if it was a tennis racquet or a hockey stick that it wouldn't be allowed or that you would have a problem with it. Don't be that disingenious.

deeksofdoom

I haven't read all the posts in this and don't really want to to, but just to say that I think its a simple case of a guy who wants to blow his hole to his college buddies about how cool he thinks he is.

There's no way I would be bringing firearms with me to any college thing, god knows what sort of impression people would have afterwards.

wexfordman2

Personally I think it's a bad idea. The optics woukd be all wring, and as an earlier poster said, if if it was all done perfectly safely all you need is one anti or one reporter with no story for the day.

Take them to your range if you want to demonstrate Firearms not your college.