What happened the Dublin-Cork Business Express??

cgcsb

The dept of transport thinks nothing of flushing €9million down the swanny:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0129/676421-island-airstrips-pac/

so €10mil for a radical improvement in journey times for thousands of people shouldn't be too big an ask.

SpaceTime

Carawaystick wrote: »

Don't Irish rail require passengers to turn up 20 min in advance of leaving Heuston, a 6th of the journey time increased on top of the time to get to Heuston

That's actually improved a LOT since the barriers went in both at Heuston and Cork as you can mostly just walk straight on (As should always have been the case)

I don't know why they went out of their way to add all of the inconvenience of an airline checkin and queue when they never needed it for any reason!?

end of the road

cgcsb wrote: »

The dept of transport thinks nothing of flushing €9million down the swanny:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0129/676421-island-airstrips-pac/

so €10mil for a radical improvement in journey times for thousands of people shouldn't be too big an ask.

when it comes to the railway, it is

cgcsb

end of the road wrote: »

when it comes to the railway, it is

'tis always the way. Some posters on here seem to be under the impression that a new piece of rail infrastructure, e.g. DARTu or MetroN have to recover their capital costs through ticket sales. The same posters want a €3bn motorway/tunnel connecting Dublin Port to the Dundrum M50 Exit, and they don't want to pay a toll either.

After spending 100mil on the Limerick-Galway rail line, shouted down as a waste, we're currently building a parallel toll-free motorway for over 7 times the cost.

end of the road

cgcsb wrote: »

'tis always the way. Some posters on here seem to be under the impression that a new piece of rail infrastructure, e.g. DARTu or MetroN have to recover their capital costs through ticket sales. The same posters want a €3bn motorway/tunnel connecting Dublin Port to the Dundrum M50 Exit, and they don't want to pay a toll either.

After spending 100mil on the Limerick-Galway rail line, shouted down as a waste, we're currently building a parallel toll-free motorway for over 7 times the cost.

i know, you couldn't make it up.

Banjoxed

cgcsb wrote: »

'tis always the way. Some posters on here seem to be under the impression that a new piece of rail infrastructure, e.g. DARTu or MetroN have to recover their capital costs through ticket sales. The same posters want a €3bn motorway/tunnel connecting Dublin Port to the Dundrum M50 Exit, and they don't want to pay a toll either.

After spending 100mil on the Limerick-Galway rail line, shouted down as a waste, we're currently building a parallel toll-free motorway for over 7 times the cost.

Shh! Don't let the secret out or else we'll have this:

Collie D

Off topic: Does breakfast come with first class travel on Dublin-Cork route? Website says there is "In-seat dining available on selected services" but not whether it's included in price or not. Have never travelled first class in Ireland before.

LXFlyer

Collie D wrote: »

Off topic: Does breakfast come with first class travel on Dublin-Cork route? Website says there is "In-seat dining available on selected services" but not whether it's included in price or not. Have never travelled first class in Ireland before.

No - you have to pay for the food separately. You do get free tea or coffee however.


The menu and prices are here:
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/first_class_menu_web.pdf?v=8y4dcco


On the 07:00 Dublin-Cork train there is a breakfast service, which, once first class is served, is extended to all passengers in the buffet car.


The same applies to the 07:00 Cork-Dublin.

corktina

cgcsb wrote: »

'tis always the way. Some posters on here seem to be under the impression that a new piece of rail infrastructure, e.g. DARTu or MetroN have to recover their capital costs through ticket sales. The same posters want a €3bn motorway/tunnel connecting Dublin Port to the Dundrum M50 Exit, and they don't want to pay a toll either.

After spending 100mil on the Limerick-Galway rail line, shouted down as a waste, we're currently building a parallel toll-free motorway for over 7 times the cost.

but that motorway will carry thousands of times more passengers and freight from day one and will also make the roads a lot safer .

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

but that motorway will carry thousands of times more passengers and freight from day one and will also make the roads a lot safer .

its still not worth spending that much money on though. you could get a good high quality road for less then that i'd bet.

corktina

If it saved one life, it would be worth every cent.

Seven times the investment for thousands of times the users? sounds like a good investment to me.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

its still not worth spending that much money on though. you could get a good high quality road for less then that i'd bet.

Its called future proofing.

mydiscworld

Are there any plans to put down faster track for Cork to Dublin?

2hr30-2hr40 doesn't cut it anymore

LXFlyer

mydiscworld wrote: »

Are there any plans to put down faster track for Cork to Dublin?

2hr30-2hr40 doesn't cut it anymore

Go back to post #41 on page 3 and read from there.


That will fill you in on the current plans.

corktina

Investment in speeding up long distance journeys together with developing commuter services is absolutely the way to go. Rail has to be considerably quicker than the motorway to compete (because the car does a door to door journey) which is why the UK introduced their InterCity 125 trains when the M4 motorway was being built. 100 mph over long stretches is a good start.... but there are many other lines which need a lot of investment to survive

cgcsb

corktina wrote: »

but that motorway will carry thousands of times more passengers and freight from day one and will also make the roads a lot safer .

That wasn't my point. My point was that the money would have been better spent on an integrated road/rail transport solution to meet the transport need of the region as opposed to reviving a Victorian designed railway and building an over designed road near by.

For example, a new single track rail alignment with frequent passing loops capable of 160km/hr running could have been built alongside a standard dual carriageway, with virtually the same land take as we currently have, and we'd achieve multiple objectives:
-Improved Road safety
-Better HGV access
-Radically improved public transport

What we are getting now is a bodge.

cgcsb

Grandeeod wrote: »

Its called future proofing.

why wasn't the Galway-Limerick rail line future proofed? :rolleyes:

cgcsb

corktina wrote: »

If it saved one life, it would be worth every cent.

A single fatality is calculated as having a net cost of €30,000,000 in road design.

corktina wrote: »

Seven times the investment for thousands of times the users? sounds like a good investment to me.

You're still getting the point.

L1011

cgcsb wrote: »

why wasn't the Galway-Limerick rail line future proofed? :rolleyes:

Because it should never have been reopened in the first place, and was a political playtoy.

An actual, suitable line speed, suitable corridor etc line would never have paased any cost-benefit analysis (not that the current one did in reality, with its clearly falsified business case)

cgcsb wrote: »

For example, a new single track rail alignment with frequent passing loops capable of 160km/hr running could have been built alongside a standard dual carriageway, with virtually the same land take as we currently have

This is a "standard dual carriageway" - motorways haven't taken any more land take for some years now.

cgcsb

mydiscworld wrote: »

Are there any plans to put down faster track for Cork to Dublin?

2hr30-2hr40 doesn't cut it anymore

The section between Portarlington and Portlaoise is to be upgraded see a few pages back. Completion by early 2016, funds permitting.

cgcsb

L1011 wrote: »

An actual, suitable line speed, suitable corridor etc line would never have paased any cost-benefit analysis (not that the current one did in reality, with its clearly falsified business case)

And there's a positive economic case for a €750mil motorway between Gort and Tuam??

L1011

cgcsb wrote: »

And there's a positive economic case for a €750mil motorway between Gort and Tuam??

Far more so than any rail project would be for the same route, yes. Clinging to the fact that its "duplicating" a useless railway line is pointless.

cgcsb

L1011 wrote: »

the fact that its "duplicating" a useless railway line is pointless.

Of course that's not my point either. My point was that a joint transport strategy that gives consideration to all solutions, including joint road/rail solutions. Building more motorways is a stimulus package for the gulf states and car manufacturing countries.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

Because it should never have been reopened in the first place, and was a political playtoy.

as may be. but it was reopened, and therefore should have been future proofed.

L1011 wrote: »

An actual, suitable line speed, suitable corridor etc line would never have paased any cost-benefit analysis (not that the current one did in reality, with its clearly falsified business case)

maybe it would have if it was put on a proper alinement. a galway limerick rail link in its own right is viable, not the shambles we got.

L1011 wrote: »

This is a "standard dual carriageway" - motorways haven't taken any more land take for some years now.

well if it is, its way overpriced

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

Far more so than any rail project would be for the same route, yes.

not really, and not for that price

L1011 wrote: »

Clinging to the fact that its "duplicating" a useless railway line is pointless.

absolutely its not when the rail line was only a bit of track thrown on an old winding alinement with no effort with almost every little hault reopened.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

as may be. but it was reopened, and therefore should have been future proofed.

Capacity-wise its about as future proof as possible - it has enough capacity for decades of its current growth level...

...and more importantly:

end of the road wrote: »

a galway limerick rail link in its own right is viable, not the shambles we got.

It wouldn't be either. The totality of traffic going between Limerick and Galway on public transport does not justify any railway line, even if you make extremely fanciful assumptions about modal shift and new trip generation.

end of the road wrote: »

well if it is, its way overpriced

In relation to what?

end of the road wrote: »

not really, and not for that price

Explain "not really"

Cost/benefits are ratios, total price is irrelevant.

end of the road wrote: »

absolutely its not when the rail line was only a bit of track thrown on an old winding alinement with no effort with almost every little hault reopened.

There was never any justification for anything further to be done to that line (there wasn't a justification for what was done either) and its likely to be closed - permanently this time - within five years. Its irrelevant to the motorway now let alone in the future.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

But it wasn't and more importantly:
Wouldn't be either. The totality of traffic going between Limerick and Galway on public transport does not justify any railway line, even if you make extremely fanciful assumptions about modal shift and new trip generation.

it does justify a rail line, not one on an old alinement that serves hardly anywhere however.

L1011 wrote: »

Cost/benefits are ratios, total price is irrelevant.

total price is relevant here. they could have got a proper rail link and road link on the same alinement potentially for the same price. 700000000 is way to much for a standard dual carrige way if indeed that is what is proposed.

L1011 wrote: »

There was never any justification for anything further to be done to that line

yes there was. a line on a new alinement built to a proper speed.

L1011 wrote: »

(there wasn't a justification for what was done either)

no there wasn't. but there was for a line on a new alinement built to a proper speed co-located with all the motor way..

L1011 wrote: »

its likely to be closed - permanently this time - within five years.

is it? yeah, i'm sure. something else will be gone before it.

L1011 wrote: »

Its irrelevant to the motorway now let alone in the future.

its not irrelevant to the motor way now or in the future as with imagination the 2 could have been co-located together on the same alinement potentially costing the same price for more, offering a proper rail and road corridor between the 2 cities.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

they could have got a proper rail link and road link on the same alinement potentially for the same price. 700000000 is way to much for a standard dual carrige way if indeed that is what is proposed.

There isn't a chance in hell that they could have.

Its 550M not 700M - there's constant inflation of figures to try justify insane arguments on here these days - which is building 57km of road, mostly standard dual carriageway and a small amount of reduced dual carriageway. This is the lowest standard justifiable and is about as cheap as its going to get.

There is no standard of road you can reduce the road to that frees up more than maybe 100M - which isn't going to build much rail line, let alone the distance being proposed.


As for the rest of your post - another circular argument forming here. I haven't got the time to deal with the same point being broken out in to twenty seperate quotes without a single substantive fact being given, along with voodoo economics, a total lack of understanding of fundamental concepts, "build it and they will come" assumptions and figures pulled out of thin air.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

As for the rest of your post - another circular argument forming here. I haven't got the time to deal with the same point being broken out in to twenty seperate quotes without a single substantive fact being given, along with voodoo economics, a total lack of understanding of fundamental concepts, "build it and they will come" assumptions and figures pulled out of thin air.

refering to yourself are we, because its certainly not me. plenty of substantive facts were given, and there were no voodoo economics, only the voodoo economics in your head. a complete understanding of fundamental concepts were also displayed, and there was no pulling figures out of thin air, just the figures quoted on this thread from a reliable poster

cgcsb

L1011 wrote: »

The totality of traffic going between Limerick and Galway on public transport does not justify any railway line, even if you make extremely fanciful assumptions about modal shift and new trip generation.

Almost all passenger rail infrastructure, in the whole world, is designed and built either to
a) Encourage modal shift or
b) To relieve pressure on existing services

or sometimes both. In that case if we're building/re-building a closed railway line, given there is no existing service to relieve, surely then the entire design premise is one of encouraging modal shift.

Modal shift is not fanciful at all, it happens all the time. Look at commutes to Dublin City Centre over 20 years.

Lenton Lane

Planning ahead is vital, railway line provision should not be considered a "reward" for development, it is considered outside of Ireland a spur to development.

L1011

cgcsb wrote: »

Almost all passenger rail infrastructure, in the whole world, is designed and built either to
a) Encourage modal shift or
b) To relieve pressure on existing services

or sometimes both. In that case if we're building/re-building a closed railway line, given there is no existing service to relieve, surely then the entire design premise is one of encouraging modal shift.

Modal shift is not fanciful at all, it happens all the time. Look at commutes to Dublin City Centre over 20 years.

Modal shift in the case of the WRC was fanciful - a superior bus service already has the public transport passengers.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

Modal shift in the case of the WRC was fanciful - a superior bus service already has the public transport passengers.

what "superior bus service" . its more frequent and thats it. it has public transport passengers who would never use rail but thats it. those who would (if they had it) use a proper frequent decent speed rail line are taking their cars because such a rail service doesn't exist.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

what "superior bus service" . its more frequent and thats it. it has public transport passengers who would never use rail but thats it. those who would (if they had it) use a proper frequent decent speed rail line are taking their cars because such a rail service doesn't exist.

So now that the WRC has failed, the new WRC agrgument is that it should have been built along a new alignment?:eek:

Thats not voodoo economics, its bonkers economics. What is it about the WRC and its ability to keep moving goalposts.

Anyway I thought this thread was about the Dublin- Cork express idea. Personally I'd like to get back to that.

corktina

cgcsb wrote: »

That wasn't my point. My point was that the money would have been better spent on an integrated road/rail transport solution to meet the transport need of the region as opposed to reviving a Victorian designed railway and building an over designed road near by.

For example, a new single track rail alignment with frequent passing loops capable of 160km/hr running could have been built alongside a standard dual carriageway, with virtually the same land take as we currently have, and we'd achieve multiple objectives:
-Improved Road safety
-Better HGV access
-Radically improved public transport

What we are getting now is a bodge.

You can't build a rail line on the same alignment as a road, the gradients will be too great...you can't build a 100mph single line there either, the curves will be too tight and if you have frequent passing loops, it's going to be impossible to use them

Lenton Lane

corktina wrote: »

You can't build a rail line on the same alignment as a road, the gradients will be too great...you can't build a 100mph single line there either, the curves will be too tight and if you have frequent passing loops, it's going to be impossible to use them

Ever been to Holland where they build railway lines alongside motorways? HS1 in England is largely parallel to the M20 motorway.

Much of the M1 motorway out of London right past Watford Gap services (some 60 miles out) was built parallel to railway lines.

Just because it isnt done in Ireland doesn't mean it isn't done elsewhere.

dowlingm

Train de l'Est, Montreal
http://mmmgrouplimited.com/projects/train-de-lest-3/

I would agree that there can be limitations to which roads a train can be usefully run inside/alongside. The Maynooth line and its canal-enforced curves show that in another context. But that doesn't mean it can never work.

corktina

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Ever been to Holland where they build railway lines alongside motorways? HS1 in England is largely parallel to the M20 motorway.

Much of the M1 motorway out of London right past Watford Gap services (some 60 miles out) was built parallel to railway lines.

Just because it isnt done in Ireland doesn't mean it isn't done elsewhere.

Holland is famously flat.
the M20 and M1 were not built at the same time as the adjacent routes and thus are not relevant.

Banjoxed

Hmm, broadening the agenda for transport, or narrowing it?

monument

I've started a new thread to make the new service clearer to more people:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057433165#