war in Ukraine

Gatling

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Once Ukraine was destabilized by the US-backed coup attempt, and a civil war began for control of the country, a Russian invasion (covert or overt) - as illegal and reprehensible as that is - was kind of inevitable, given how massive a thread a NATO-controlled Ukraine would be to Russia (right on Russia's doorstep, with by far the longest stretch of border shared with Russia, of any European nation).

Destabilizing Ukraine was an utterly stupid decision by the US - great way to trigger a new Cold War, and general breakdown of relations between multiple nuclear powers.

BS

Iranoutofideas

Gatling wrote: »

BS

How so?

DeadHand

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't be so naive. There are three reasons the referendum was illegitimate.

1. The options: There was no "keep the status quo" option a referendum with no option to defeat the movement is by definition an undemocratic referendum since it is forcing change on the population regardless of their views.
2. The conditions: The referendum was carried out during occupation by a foreign country. Crimean citizens have reported to western media that they felt under duress to vote how Putin wanted them to.
3. The result: Putin won 97% of the vote. 97% of voters voting one way in any referendum is utterly unrealistic.

Until a an internationally organized and monitored referendum can take place you have no right to say the majority of people favor unification as that is an unfounded and groundless statement.

I'm still of the firm belief that given the region's history and the make up of it's population a referendum held anytime, under any circumstances would render the same result.

Again, the referendum was chaotic and hasty but it did give an indication of the will of the Crimean people. The lack of resistance to Russian occupation by either regular or irregular forces is another good indicator of the will of the Crimean people.

I wouldn't believe much of what the "western media" reports on the Crimea issue, there's been a blatant anti-Russian bias in most of it from day one.

DeadHand

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I'm not making a direct comparison, of course not.

I'm comparing to those who have a moral conviction that the Iraq War was the right thing to do - even in full knowledge of the tower of lies that led to its inception.

With the osmotic transfer of Crimea into Russia we see a similar conviction - both of which are unfounded.

Fair enough.

I can't quite agree with you on this issue but I do understand the points you're making and respect the way you make them.

Don't want to clutter the entire thread with my own musings either (not that that ever stopped me before).

wretcheddomain

DeadHand wrote: »

I wouldn't believe much of what the "western media" reports on the Crimea issue, there's been a blatant anti-Russian bias in most of it from day one.

People come to their own conclusions not based on Western media, but on their own analysis of the available data to hand.

Everyone in this thread is, more or less, arguing from the same evidence. You are arguing one way, many of us are arguing another way.

To bring in the Western media as a way to tarnish our conclusions appears to be a desperate attempt to dismiss us.

Moreover, even if we did blindly take our conclusions from the Western media, this doesn't necessarily make the conclusion false. But, anyway, we don't, so that's that.

Iwasfrozen

DeadHand wrote: »

I'm still of the firm belief that given the region's history and the make up of it's population a referendum held anytime, under any circumstances would render the same result.

Again, the referendum was chaotic and hasty but it did give an indication of the will of the Crimean people. The lack of resistance to Russian occupation by either regular or irregular forces is another good indicator of the will of the Crimean people.

I wouldn't believe much of what the "western media" reports on the Crimea issue, there's been a blatant anti-Russian bias in most of it from day one.

It didn't give an accurate reading of the will of the Crimean people due to the reasons I've outlined. You've stated it's your belief to the contrary but that is just your belief. You can't go around preaching it like it's undeniable truth.

WakeUp

this is the moment those shells smacked into Mariupol. someone was looking out for the guy in this car talk about a near miss he is one lucky dude. NSFW
http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch-shocking-footage-shows-moment-shelling-hits-ukrainian-neighborhood/?

Egginacup

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Ukraine is a sovereign state, Florida is a state of a sovereign state. Big difference.

Even a US-backed coup is not sufficient justification for Russian annexation of neighbouring territory. As bad and stupid as the former may be, it pales in comparison to the illegality of the latter.

This round of Russian annexation isn't even a new phenomenon, as Putin appears to glorify the old days of the Soviet Union, fantasising about its return on the world stage.

The leftists always reach a new low by doing everything in their power to justify the actions of this backward thug.

If there were broad popular support in Cork to merge with the UK, would you support the UK holding a referendum there and annexing the territory?

Russia didn't ANNEX Crimea. The Soviet Union under Khruschev gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. The Crimea voted overwhelmingly in a referendum to become part of Russia once again. Now you can blab, and you probably will, without a shred of evidence that it was a sham vote, purely because you don't like it. But please stop calling a decision to return to the governance of Russia an annexation.

The_Valeyard

Egginacup wrote: »

Russia didn't ANNEX Crimea. The Soviet Union under Khruschev gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. The Crimea voted overwhelmingly in a referendum to become part of Russia once again. Now you can blab, and you probably will, without a shred of evidence that it was a sham vote, purely because you don't like it. But please stop calling a decision to return to the governance of Russia an annexation.

VOTING BOOTH OPTIONS:

Option 1) Rejoin Russia

Option 2) Torture me and my family. Also burn my house down.

Iwasfrozen

Egginacup wrote: »

Russia didn't ANNEX Crimea. The Soviet Union under Khruschev gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954. The Crimea voted overwhelmingly in a referendum to become part of Russia once again. Now you can blab, and you probably will, without a shred of evidence that it was a sham vote, purely because you don't like it. But please stop calling a decision to return to the governance of Russia an annexation.

How many times does this have to be posted? There was no "maintain status quo" option in the referendum. You seem incapable of absorbing this fact.

Gatling

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

How so?

Simple it wasn't an American backed coup or anything like it ,
Was the orange revolution a American backed coup too.
Less educated conspiracy theories .

The people of Ukraine stood up and said it had enough of been kept under the kremlins heel .
Putin invaded Crimea for one reason only the port of sevastopol and russia troops stationed there

Egginacup

irish coldplayer wrote: »

Perhaps because he called the fall of the USSR the "greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century"

Also have you a source on how he was instrumental in bringing down the USSR?

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, doubtless you are not, but Vladimir Putin in 1991 as assistant to the mayor of St. Petersburg put down a rising that was hatched by Communist members of both the Army and Central Committee. Their goal was to maintain the Soviet Union. Putin, who as a former KGB analyst and advocate of establishing detente with the West, destroyed their plot.

Now if you want to bullshit about Putin being a Bolshevik, or Soviet or whatever label that you don't understand, who wants to control the world then go back to your Rambo movies and the gibberish that you hear in the chipper at 2am.

I would like you to tell us with a smidgen of accuracy WHEN the Russians have invaded and subjugated a country or a people.

Iranoutofideas

Gatling wrote: »

Simple it wasn't an American backed coup or anything like it ,
Was the orange revolution a American backed coup too.
Less educated conspiracy theories .

The people of Ukraine stood up and said it had enough of been kept under the kremlins heel .
Putin invaded Crimea for one reason only the port of sevastopol and russia troops stationed there

I can't take your opinion seriously regarding the American role in this.

Egginacup

Trigger Happy wrote: »

No he didnt.
Putin was behind a desk in Dresden pushing data at the time of the collapse.

NO...he wasn't.
Let's get our facts right there, ok?

Iwasfrozen

Egginacup wrote: »

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, doubtless you are not, but Vladimir Putin in 1991 as assistant to the mayor of St. Petersburg put down a rising that was hatched by Communist members of both the Army and Central Committee. Their goal was to maintain the Soviet Union. Putin, who as a former KGB analyst and advocate of establishing detente with the West, destroyed their plot.

Now if you want to bullshit about Putin being a Bolshevik, or Soviet or whatever label that you don't understand, who wants to control the world then go back to your Rambo movies and the gibberish that you hear in the chipper at 2am.

I would like you to tell us with a smidgen of accuracy WHEN the Russians have invaded and subjugated a country or a people.

Poland. Many times throughout history.

Also the Baltic nations. But don't let facts get in the way of your russophilia.

gandalf

Egginacup wrote: »

I would like you to tell us with a smidgen of accuracy WHEN the Russians have invaded and subjugated a country or a people.

They did a deal with the Nazi's and along with their "buddies" invaded Poland in 1939 and split the country between them. That also kicked off WW2, nice one Russia

Egginacup

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I assume, then, that you would be opposed to Russian intervention in Ukraine if it wasn't a "neo-Nazi junta hell bent on genocide against the ethnic Russian population"?

By the way, it's possible to be simultaneously against US intervention and Russian intervention. You seem to be erecting a false position that if one is against one form of intervention, we are somehow supportive of the other.

I am absolutely opposed to both a Russian and an American intervention in The Ukraine. In fact I am opposed to any intervention by a country's government/military within another state according to the Geneva Protocol and the United Nations Mandate.
The US however has already intervened in the Ukraine by orchestrating a coup to topple the existing president and install a government of their choosing. So if you have any kind of rules to which people should adhere then ought you not go all the way back to the genesis of this crisis?

Irish Praetorian

Egginacup wrote: »

I am absolutely opposed to both a Russian and an American intervention in The Ukraine. In fact I am opposed to any intervention by a country's government/military within another state according to the Geneva Protocol and the United Nations Mandate.
The US however has already intervened in the Ukraine by orchestrating a coup to topple the existing president and install a government of their choosing. So if you have any kind of rules to which people should adhere then ought you not go all the way back to the genesis of this crisis?

Source please.

Egginacup

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Northern Ireland is considered a core part of Ireland with ethnic and cultural Irish living in it.

Would it be right for Ireland to do to NI what Russia did to Crimea?(Hypothetically if that was possible)

You've just made yourself look like a complete idiot. Was it not Margaret Thatcher who stated that Northern Ireland would be united with the Irish Republic if and when the majority therein (NI) voted in a referendum to do so? Exactly as the people of Crimea have done.

Ireland had a constitutional claim to Northern Ireland from partition (although becoming the law in 1937) until the Good Friday Agreement when it was ceded in order to ease the way for negotiations with Unionists.

If Harold McMillan or Ted Heath or Winston Churchill gave away Yorkshire to Germany after a belly full of beer and then the people of Yorkshire later voted to return to the English fold you would not be sputtering the same nonsense you are now.

Gatling

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

I can't take your opinion seriously regarding the American role in this.

Nor your uneducated conspiracy theory

Egginacup

robindch wrote: »

In all fairness, as somebody said above, the Russian army has been there from the very start. Here's a GRU (Russian Military Intelligence) agent named Igor Girkin, aka Strelkov, who was the guy who organized the initial takeover in East Ukraine:

http://zavtra.ru/content/view/kto-tyi-strelok/

(needs translation, but google's good enough).

Another deluded gobshite who allegedly "led" rebel troops in Eastern Ukraine yet most of those who came in contact with him stated that he was a basic bullshit artist who thought he was actually important and took anything monetary.
Strelkov Chalabi :pac:

Herb Powell

Has anyone in this thread spoken with Ukranians on the matter?

I have a few friends from the east (Lugansk, etc.), of Russian ethnicity themselves, and the overwhelming opinion seems to be they do not want to be part of Russia. Not sure if this is representative of the whole, but they insisted it really is most people who want nothing to do with Russia.

This makes me very skeptical of anyone claiming the east of Ukraine is "practically Russia". It has closer ties, certainly. But it is Ukraine.

Irish Praetorian

Herb Powell wrote: »

Has anyone in this thread spoken with Ukranians on the matter?

I have a few friends from the east (Lugansk, etc.), of Russian ethnicity themselves, and the overwhelming opinion seems to be they do not want to be part of Russia. Not sure if this is representative of the whole, but they insisted it really is most people who want nothing to do with Russia.

This makes me very skeptical of anyone claiming the east of Ukraine is "practically Russia". It has closer ties, certainly. But it is Ukraine.

My only experience is with a guy from Kiev, fiercely anti-Putin and very wary of Russian treatment of his country, despite being a native-Russian speaker (has literally tried and failed to switch to Ukrainian on several occasions). So I'm incredibly suspicious of anyone who says 'Oh Russian speaker, wants to be part of Putins Russia'.

pablomakaveli

Egginacup wrote: »

You've just made yourself look like a complete idiot. Was it not Margaret Thatcher who stated that Northern Ireland would be united with the Irish Republic if and when the majority therein (NI) voted in a referendum to do so? Exactly as the people of Crimea have done.

Ireland had a constitutional claim to Northern Ireland from partition (although becoming the law in 1937) until the Good Friday Agreement when it was ceded in order to ease the way for negotiations with Unionists.

If Harold McMillan or Ted Heath or Winston Churchill gave away Yorkshire to Germany after a belly full of beer and then the people of Yorkshire later voted to return to the English fold you would not be sputtering the same nonsense you are now.

If you think that rigged referendum in Crimea is in anyway legitimate than you'd be better off looking in the mirror for an idiot.

Egginacup

These are the glorious defenders of democracy in Ukraine that are fighting for a better future. A band of thugs installed in Kiev and paid for by NATO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FSbvbzwOb8

Irish Praetorian

Egginacup wrote: »

These are the glorious defenders of democracy in Ukraine that are fighting for a better future. A band of thugs installed in Kiev and paid for by NATO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FSbvbzwOb8

Source please?

Just by the by, how do videos of Russian troops and pro-Russian militias doing far worse effect your biased narrative?

Iranoutofideas

Gatling wrote: »

Nor your uneducated conspiracy theory

American involvement in stirring up this crisis is no conspiracy theory.

Gatling

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

American involvement in stirring up this crisis is no conspiracy theory.

Let me guess american snipers shot protester's in meridian,

The only who stirred up anything is russia ,and have been for the last 10+ years directly been involved in controlling Ukraine for its own benefit,
Amazing yanukovich was a nobody political wannabe who wanted to hold a referendum asking for russian withdrawl of troops and ships from Sevastopol over 10 years ago ,all of sudden hes elected President and gets very rich and no referendum mean while pro west political leaders suddenly get charged with corruption and face show trials and guess who supplied all the information showing corruption Gazprom aka putins gas company ,
Where did the elite police force the Berkut who shot and killed protesters in meridian go to ,
Straight to Crimea to be paid by the kremlin as new russian militia,
Crimea home to the port of Sevastopol and the russian black fleet ,sound familiar 10+years yanukovich the amateur political leader who came from nothing to become extremely rich at the hands of the Kremlin and Putin's merry nut jobs,
Where did yanukovich go with his russian military escort along with millions of dollars of Ukrainian money oh yeah straight to the kremlin
Now where does America come into this

irish coldplayer

Egginacup wrote: »

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, doubtless you are not, but Vladimir Putin in 1991 as assistant to the mayor of St. Petersburg put down a rising that was hatched by Communist members of both the Army and Central Committee. Their goal was to maintain the Soviet Union. Putin, who as a former KGB analyst and advocate of establishing detente with the West, destroyed their plot.

Again source please ?

Egginacup wrote: »

Now if you want to bullshit about Putin being a Bolshevik, or Soviet or whatever label that you don't understand, who wants to control the world then go back to your Rambo movies and the gibberish that you hear in the chipper at 2am.

:eek:
WTF? Where the hell did that rant come from?
I said none of the above and I am quite aware what all those terms mean.
I quoted something Putin said recently that was widely reported, gibberish is what you seem to excel at.

Egginacup wrote: »

I would like you to tell us with a smidgen of accuracy WHEN the Russians have invaded and subjugated a country or a people.

How about most of eastern Europe for about 40 years, but I'm sure you'll say they all loved being part of the soviet bloc.
Heres a few more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupations_by_the_Soviet_Union
And yes I am equivocating Russia with the Soviet Union, its not much of a stretch considering anyone in Ukraine who doesn't love Russia is a Nazi according to you.

Its amazing how a two line post asking for a source and giving a quote provokes so much vitriol from you, makes it pointless even having a discussion on this topic with you.

Egginacup

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't be so naive. There are three reasons the referendum was illegitimate.

1. The options: There was no "keep the status quo" option a referendum with no option to defeat the movement is by definition an undemocratic referendum since it is forcing change on the population regardless of their views.
2. The conditions: The referendum was carried out during occupation by a foreign country. Crimean citizens have reported to western media that they felt under duress to vote how Putin wanted them to.
3. The result: Putin won 97% of the vote. 97% of voters voting one way in any referendum is utterly unrealistic.

Until a an internationally organized and monitored referendum can take place you have no right to say the majority of people favor unification as that is an unfounded and groundless statement.

The reason there was no status quo choice was because at the time of the referendum there was (and still is) an illegitimate nazi junta in control of Kiev. To have the status quo recognised would mean to validate the US installed coup junta and that was out of the question. So the choices were

(a) How things were before these neo-nazi thugs were installed by Washington or

(b) Say "fuck that!" and rejoin Russia.

Since the Kiev junta have started massacring civilians in Eastern Ukraine, 2 more regions have asked to become part of Russia. They're under duress alright in the form of artillery from Kiev owned batteries blowing them to pieces.

You can call the referendum illegitimate all you want but it just smells like sour grapes on your part. Putin outsmarted Washington and the West at just about every turn and you don't like it. Sucks being a sore loser.

Roger Hassenforder

Nazis, Nazis everywhere...

Egginacup

Further suspicions that US/UK have personnel operating inside the Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&x-yt-cl=84503534&x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=jW1JdOXdJkU

TerrorFirmer

Why don't you stop spewing **** all over every thread you comment on and start providing the sources for your wild statements that are being asked for, in this thread and every other thread you post, which you refuse to do and go off on wild tangents?

You're not well, seriously.

Gatling

Egginacup wrote: »

Further suspicions that US/UK have personnel operating inside the Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&x-yt-cl=84503534&x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=jW1JdOXdJkU

What suspicion is that

humanji

Egginacup wrote: »

Further suspicions that US/UK have personnel operating inside the Ukraine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&x-yt-cl=84503534&x-yt-ts=1421914688&v=jW1JdOXdJkU

MOD: This isn't the conspiracy theories forum, so stop making wild claims and backing them up with Youtube videos that don't actually show anything. If you have proof, provide it. If not, stop derailing the thread with random theories.

kravmaga

As Putin is not backing down and is not prepared to attend talks which happened recently in Minsk regarding ceasefires, I think its high time the US Government started arming the Ukranian Army to hold off any further insurgency by the Russian backed rebels in Eastern Ukraine.

Its looking like a proxy war between Russia and U.S. in Ukraine.


http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/us-ukraine-lethal-aid/index.html

BrianDug

kravmaga wrote: »

As Putin is not backing down and is not prepared to attend talks which happened recently in Minsk regarding ceasefires, I think its high time the US Government started arming the Ukranian Army to hold off any further insurgency by the Russian backed rebels in Eastern Ukraine.

Its looking like a proxy war between Russia and U.S. in Ukraine.


http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/us-ukraine-lethal-aid/index.html

The US government have been arming Ukraine - they have spent $5 billion so far. And there is already US mercs on the ground.

You can't blame the local residents for taking up arms against the Ukraine Army to combat the daily shelling/ethnic cleansing.

BrianDug

Gatling wrote: »

Let me guess american snipers shot protester's in meridian,

Yes exactly...a text book operation, the exact same as what happened in Syria and Libya. "Police/Army" shooting on unarmed civilians.

Russia, China, Iran de-dollarising.... oh look "democracy" protests in Hong Kong !

Angela never got her gold back did she (from the USA)? Too large a logistical process they told her...Yet they can lift fly all the gold from the Ukraine banks to the USA overnight :cool:

They won't beat Russia at chess in there own back yard, thats for sure.

c_man

BrianDug wrote: »

They won't beat Russia at chess in there own back yard, thats for sure.

They have Deep Blue running the show. It's sorted.

BrianDug

c_man wrote: »

They have Deep Blue running the show. It's sorted.

Deep Blue is no match for Putin!

jimgoose

c_man wrote: »

They have Deep Blue running the show. It's sorted.

Deep Blue is relegated to calculating odds for Paddy Power. Watson is running the show nowadays.

Gatling

BrianDug wrote: »

The US government have been arming Ukraine - they have spent $5 billion so far. And there is already US mercs on the ground.

You can't blame the local residents for taking up arms against the Ukraine Army to combat the daily shelling/ethnic cleansing.

Complete and utter bs ,

loughside

While the US and the West were running around like headless chickens tracking down Bin Laden et al the worlds most dangerous terrorist was sitting in his chamber in the Kremlin.

February 3 – Russia began using barrier troops, which shoot its own army in the back, so that pro-Russian terrorists and Russian soldiers have nowhere to retreat. Putin, Stalin – can you see the difference? The retreat of pro-Russian terrorists near the town of Vuhlehirsk was stalled by barrier troops of the Dzerzhinsky Division of Russian Interior Ministry, – informed NSDC spokesman Andriy Lysenko.

Northpole

Where is the main thread on Ukraine?

CA - Russia thread.

fryup

will we ever learn?

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057368067/war-in-ukraine

Hi, i'm from the future.

I've come back in time from the year 2022 to tell you how insightful and accurate your thread's opening post is 👌😜

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118781387#Comment_118781387

Um... what's the relationship? Sure, Russia is behaving terribly, but where's the genocide, racial superiority, etc?

Hardly grounds for comparison with Nazi Germany and WW2.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118781523#Comment_118781523

They’ve threatened to use Nuclear weapons… "consequences that you have never experienced in your history." we’re Putins exact words.

he’s invaded a peaceful sovereign nation… the comparison isn’t a million miles off..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118781546#Comment_118781546

Sorry, I still don't see the comparison as being relevant.

Nazi Germany is associated with pure evil.. in terms of genocide and other extremes. Russia hasn't committed such acts. Invading another nation is no different from a dozen other wars over the last 50 years.

Now, if Russia opens up death camps.. then sure, I'd understand the comparison then. But equating Russia with Nazi Germany, and the "never again" point.. just lessens the impact and importance of the "never again".