Draft Last 16: SlickRic vs bucketybuck

Frankie Lee

Poll will be added when both teams are up, but votes in the thread with a little reasoning will be the ones that count towards the winner.
Voting finishes 24 hours after the second player's team is announced.
Best of luck.

Frankie Lee

SlickRic's team & write up.


In short, I believe this unit is as solid as a rock.

Desailly, Hendry, Gilberto, Lampard and Aguero provide a spine to rival any IMO. this team will not be beaten easily.

With Wilshere's ability to dribble past people, as well as his tenacious attitude, with Pires' creativity both from outwide and cutting in, with Walcott's pace and goal threat, with Lampard's all-round game and unmatched ability to score goals from midfield, and Aguero's just utter brilliance, the team can either dominate possession, or it can hit you on the counter. I believe there is flexibility there.

i think there's strength in the team's flexibility, depending on the task at hand.

bucketybuck

My team:

I think I've put together a very balanced team, full of quality but also very versatile. First and foremost we are very defensively solid. Unlike most teams you don't need to guess how my defenders will play together, you already know! Its 3/4 of a treble winning defence, proven on the biggest stage of all and including two of the greatest defenders to play in the Premier league. Lehmann is a proven big game goalkeeper and has the record to back that claim up, while in front of the defence we have two of the best defensive midfielders around. I very intentionally picked Batty and De Jong, I want the midfield area to be a battleground in every game, there is no team going to come through the middle of the field against us with those two cleaning house.

Up front we have football writers player of the year David Ginola, football writers player of the year Jurgen Klinsmann, and sublime playmaker Van Der Vaart. Oh and some guy called Cristiano Ronaldo. These four players mean goals.

Tactics.

It was for games like this that I took Dennis Irwin as a 3rd round pick, his versatility made him so much more valuable than Cole or Evra. In this game I will have him at right back to deal with Pires, and with Irwin you know that is job done. O'Shea loses no effectiveness by moving to the left, he played there very frequently and is well able to deal with Theo Walcott.

Another of Slickrics strengths is having Lampard coming late from midfield. Again the use of Batty and De Jong as a brick wall is a perfect counter to this, neither Lampard nor Wilshire will get any freedom to make those late runs, they will be watched at every second by the two bulldogs.

Offensively I will have Ginola and Ronaldo carrying the ball from deep and down the wings, supported by the Irwin and O'Shea. Slick has a good central defence, so I will be targeting the full backs who are definitely a weakness. I've put Ronaldo on the right simply to get at Wayne Bridge, who was solid but was never good enough to handle Cristiano Ronaldo at any age, and David Ginola is far too good for Sagna to handle.

Van Der Vaart is a wildcard, he will be operating in a crowded area between Silva and Desailly but he is a player that can easily pop up with a bit of magic no matter where he plays. And Jurgen Klinsmann is a bona fide legend. I know its easy to claim he didn't play enough, but he played a lot more than a lot of other picks in this draft and his impact cannot be denied. FWA Footballer of the year, you don't win that for a few cameos while picking up a paycheck, Klinsmann is a definite threat.

keane2097

Very hard to split these two.

Morzadec

Two excellent and extremely well-balanced teams on first view - winner of this could well be a favourite to go all the way.

Will look a bit closer before deciding

SlickRic

Just to add on the tactics side, as I didn't know buckety's team...

I'd have preferred not to play him this early. It's definitely one of the most solid teams defensively, plus it has Ronaldo, which is always going to be difficult to manage.

Basically, I believe my team will keep the ball a lot better, control the game, and ultimately edge it. I think Ginola, VDV and Ronaldo will be a handful, but will leave space for me to exploit. I also think while Klinsmann is a football legend, IMO he's not in that category relation to this draft.

He can hurt me (how could he not on occasion with Ronaldo?), but I reckon I have just few too many different kinds of weapons and will have a bit too much of the game for him. Pirés, Walcott, Aguero...then the option of Lampard from deep. Not all of them can be kept out.

Close game though.

Chrissybhoy

I've gone bucketybuck. His wingers will create chances inside and on the outside plenty of supply for Klinsmann VDV was great with Spurs popping up some magic and important goals. I think he has enough in Batty and De Jong to stop Lampard. Pires and Aguero will cause problems and get him one or two goals. Walcott on the other hand will get in good positions but won't always deliver the final product. Good game but Bucketybuck wins

Blue giant

It's very hard to separate the two of them. I will have to go with Bucketybuck though. He has a very solid back 4. 2 good dm's. And plenty of magic up front with the likes of Ginola, Klinsmann and Ronaldo. I feel Irwin would manage Pires quite well too whereas I could see Ronaldo getting by Bridge a few times.

#15

SlickRic's team would definitely have more possession. However, with the way bucketybuck has set his team up, that is playing right into his hands.

His back 4 and 2 DMs would be very hard to break down. I could imagine them being much more than the sum of their parts. Stam alone was an elite player.

And then he combines them with Ginola and Ronaldo, who was a one man counter attack at times for Utd. Ginola and Ronaldo's pace and dribbling would be excellent outlets for relieving defensive pressure.

Sorry slickric, love your posts, but I'm giving this one to buck.

Morzadec

I've tossed this over and I'm just about going for Slick Ric.

The best thing abot Slicks team is maybe the balance. I love the front 3 combo with Lampard behind. So many goals there. You have a direct Walcott who can run in behind, with Pires as a more classy, creative player. Lampard and Aguero are just absolutely superb players who have lots of goals in their locker so it's hard not to see this team scoring against almost any team.

Lampard also has the advantage of being able to be part of a nicely functioning midfield 3 that all offer something different - Silva to sit, Wilshere to pass and move and Lampard whose a solid midfield player as well as providing that goal threat.

The defence isn't fantastic but isn't bad. Bridge and Sagna can both defend and get forward adding to the balance. Desailly and Hendry offer experience.

Buckety also has a nicely balanced team especially in the front 4 - a goal-scoring midfielder, a poaching striker, a wide player who can cross the ball who both Klinsmann and Ronaldo would thrive with and then of course the magic of Ronaldo.

The defence is strong, especially aerially, but Slicks team doesn't rely too much on aerial presence so I can still see the absolute class of the attack scoring goals.

Where bucketys team would fall down for me would be having 2 destroyers in the middle with one predominantly goalscoring midfielder ahead of them, and also a player in O'Shea who's not a natural left footer and not a left back who will stretch the game. I'm not sure if Batty, De Jong, VDV is a midfield that controls a game. You have two DMs and a AM, but no CM to playmake play little one-twos and help get a sustained period of dominance.

It may seem harsh but with 2 great teams, Slicks superior balance in midfield, with two natural fullbacks that can stretch the game means I feel his front 4 will get more of the ball than Buckety's.

The one nagging doubt I have about my decision is the Ronaldo factor. He's obviously capable of almost winning a game on his own. But in Aguero and Lampard Slick has 2 players capable of winning a game too.

Buckety's team was one I had my eye on as the draft progressed and I thought they'd be real contenders, but they've been unfortunate to meet a really strong team here, so I would go with Slick by a hair

IncognitoMan

I'm going to go with Bucketybuck, just. I think he probably has a side capable of scoring more in a game like this. It's very tight though. The 3 behind Klinsmann are all capable of a moment of magic. Very very tight though

Brien

I've voted Buckety thanks to his hard as nails defensive midfield, plus Ronaldo. Ginola as bonus flair after Klinsmann, all on top of the Man Utd treble winning back line.

Blatter

Ridiculously tight. I'll examine in detail tomorrow and vote then.

redzerdrog

Shame there has to be a loser here but slicks team just nicks this for me as its better balanced imo.

Also the trio of Aguero, Lampard and pires is excellent and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Klinsman, vdv and ginola.

Of course Ronaldo >>>>>>>>>>>>> walcot and of course Stam being the standout cb on show unfortunetly someone has to lose.

highgiant1985

oh this is a tough one... finding it very hard to pick a winner but I'm going to go with SlickRic's simply because I like his front 3 of Aguero Walcott and Pires more. bucketybuck has a great team as well though and its extremely difficult to pick this one.

keeponhurling

despite having Ronaldo on the other team, have to go for ric's

bucketybuck

Morzadec wrote: »

I'm not sure if Batty, De Jong, VDV is a midfield that controls a game. You have two DMs and a AM, but no CM to playmake play little one-twos and help get a sustained period of dominance.

I'd just like to respond to this one, I think its harsh to mark me down for not playing little one-twos in the middle when I don't want to play little one-twos in the middle! I'm set up to counter attack, and as Barca have found out in recent years tiki-takky is not the be all and end all.

SlickRic

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'd just like to respond to this one, I think its harsh to mark me down for not playing little one-twos in the middle when I don't want to play little one-twos in the middle! I'm set up to counter attack, and as Barca have found out in recent years tiki-takky is not the be all and end all.

Control does not equal tiki-taka, just to point out.

Ferris_Bueller

I probably like SlickRics team more but I'm going to go with bucketybuck to win this one. I love SlickRics front four and I wasn't sure on bucketys decision to have De Jong & Batty in there but I think they would be capable of keeping tabs on Lampard, while Irwin would do a decent job on Pires too. Can see bucketys team being very effective on the counter attack with Ronaldo and Ginola on the wings, probably the toughest one we have had to call so far but there has to be a winner. If it simply came down to who had the best team in the draft SlickRic might have won it, but when you have to factor these teams playing against each other I'll go with bucketybuck.

SlickRic

One thing to pick up on, it's a bit weird seeing the amount of people saying Irwin will handle Pirés handily, yet Ginola will kill me, as if Sagna is some sort of chump.

PhlegmyMoses

Will be going for Slick but it was close. My favourite part of Buckety's team is the dual holding midfielders. Two of the best in that position we've had in the PL and it gives his team license to roam around up front.

What swayed it for me is the defences. Buckety's has O'Shea and Johnsen, capable players but not near top level for me, and Blatter has the likes of Desailly and Hendry (people forget that he was the best CB in the league for around 4 seasons). Close call and unfortunate for both that they came up against each other so early.

bucketybuck

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

What swayed it for me is the defences. Buckety's has O'Shea and Johnsen, capable players but not near top level for me, and Blatter has the likes of Desailly and Hendry (people forget that he was the best CB in the league for around 4 seasons). Close call and unfortunate for both that they came up against each other so early.

But if O'Shea and Johnsen aren't top level then for sure Wayne Bridge and Sagna aren't, and considering they are up against perhaps the strongest set of wingers in the draft that surely must give the edge to my defensive set up. Irwin can stop Pires, but Wayne Bridge is not going to be able to handle Ronaldo.

redzerdrog

A peak Sagna would be close to top level and far ahead of O shea imo. As a LB id have Bridge ahead of O Shea aswell. I do think the overall strenght has been sacrificed by playing Irwin on right and O Shea on left. I understand it is to mark Pires but it weakens your own team in the process.

bucketybuck

redzerdrog wrote: »

A peak Sagna would be close to top level and far ahead of O shea imo. As a LB id have Bridge ahead of O Shea aswell. I do think the overall strenght has been sacrificed by playing Irwin on right and O Shea on left. I understand it is to mark Pires but it weakens your own team in the process.

But it is the right decision tactically for this match up. Even if you rate others ahead of O'Shea he only has to be solid enough to handle Theo Walcott, whereas Bridge has to handle Ronaldo, that shouldn't be forgotten. The players shouldn't be looked at in isolation.

SlickRic

bucketybuck wrote: »

But if O'Shea and Johnsen aren't top level then for sure Wayne Bridge and Sagna aren't

Sagna pretty much is top level tbf.

Irwin can stop Pires, but Wayne Bridge is not going to be able to handle Ronaldo.

1. this assumption that Irwin just deals with Pires is a fallacy.

2. or i could easily go "yes, Irwin may stop Pires, but then Sagna will stop Ginola".

3. all of this is disingenuous in reality. it's about partnerships at the end of the day. my tactics aren't going to be for Bridge to handle Ronaldo on his own. that would be lunacy. that's why Gilberto is there, and why I have strong centre halves. just like I would hope that you don't think Irwin simply just "deals" with Pires. it's teamwork. Batty/de Jong would have a role there to play, as would your centre halves.

if you think Pires is just going to be quiet because Irwin is there, then you're in trouble tactically. or if you think Walcott is just going to be dealt with by JOS, you're in trouble.

bucketybuck

SlickRic wrote: »

3. all of this is disingenuous in reality. it's about partnerships at the end of the day. my tactics aren't going to be for Bridge to handle Ronaldo on his own. that would be lunacy. that's why Gilberto is there, and why I have strong centre halves. just like I would hope that you don't think Irwin simply just "deals" with Pires. it's teamwork. Batty/de Jong would have a role there to play, as would your centre halves.

All this is a given, I would hope it would be assumed without any manager having to state it. Stating that Irwin would handle Pires is just shorthand for the case that Irwin is more capable than perhaps any other full back to deal with a player like Pires, he will of course have support but like Bridge he is the guy most involved in that area of the field.

Eta. I don't want to badger people though, so will rest my case at that.

SlickRic

bucketybuck wrote: »

All this is a given, I would hope it would be assumed without any manager having to state it. Stating that Irwin would handle Pires is just shorthand for the case that Irwin is more capable than perhaps any other full back to deal with a player like Pires, he will of course have support but like Bridge he is the guy most involved in that area of the field.

Eta. I don't want to badger people though, so will rest my case at that.

i agree. i'm done with the badgering too

Iused2likebusts

Two excellent teams and found it very difficult to seperate them. The front 4 of both teams are top class. Van Der Vaart was a very clever pick as from following the thread I think he was picked up quite late. Im going to slightly favour Slicks team as I feel Bucketys midfield pairing and a full back on his wrong side wont get the ball to their front 4 quick enough. In slicks team lampard can also drop in to make it a midfield 3 if they are being over run or go a goal up. It is very small margins though and I reckon whoever wins this tie could well win the competition. Ill go 2 1 to slick.

SlickRic

just a bump.

a few hours to go.

menoscemo

I voted for Buckety. Even though these are two of the best teams I feel his defence is more solid (especially the two DMs) and above all his attacking 4 are more potent.

Skylinehead

I think I'm going to go with SlickRic here. Bucketybuck has an undeniably good defensive setup, but Rics team screams goals. Pires, Lampard, Aguero? All goal machines. Add Walcotts pace to that (he definitely has the beating of O'Shea anyway) and there's not many players going to keep them out. Stam and Irwin were elite, but Pires' tendency to come inside changes things a bit, being up against Johnsen as much as Irwin. Ric will certainly have control of the park, not necessarily a good thing with buckety setting up on the counter, but I think Ric has enough to scrape by. Gilberto has had better players than Van der Vaart for breakfast. Ginola and Sagna I'd regard as evenly matched. Ronaldo would obviously walk all over Wayne Bridge, but I think Desailly and Hendry, an underrrated pair by the looks of it, could handle more than you'd think.

Both sides are defensively weak on the left side, especially considering the opposition wingers. What it comes down to for me is a lack of true pace in bucketys side, considering he's playing a counterattacking game, Ronaldo and Ginola, yes, but the rest? Not for me.

Blatter

There's only a fraction of a goal in this, it really is tight. I'm going to vote for Slick and Morzadec has said what I think for the most part.

The major reason is buckety's two specialist DMs in Batty and De Jong plus a specialist AM in van Der Vaart. While solid and looks great on paper, I'd much prefer a more rounded midfielder in there instead of one of De Jong/Batty. Somebody who has the ability to exert some control; when to pass it short, when to pass it long. Basically somebody who has the ability to dictate portions of the game in the middle. Somebody to orchestrate the play a bit. Wilshere and to a lesser extent Lampard have this ability more than buckety's midfielders.

Buckety is set up to counter, which is fine in circumstances where his strengths are going to sustains hits to the oppositions weak points enough to win the match but Slick's team is just too solid and well balanced for it to happen quite enough IMO. Aguero and Pires are also two great front foot players, both can make something out of nothing.

On the other side of the coin, it'd be easy to think that Ronaldo would do enough damage against Bridge (with Pires not being the kind of player to help out much) to win the game. And that's why this is so close.

When the quality of players are so closely matched overall, I'd just edge for the team that'll dominate the game that little bit more.

As I said though, there's literally only a fraction of a goal in this.

Magico Gonzalez

O'Shea is not so mobile, Batty is not particularly quick and would have to get over a lot to O'Shea's side as Walcott flies past him with ease. Ginola is a chocolate fireguard in terms of what he will offer as protection. That left hand side looks open to expoitation.

Unfortunately I don't see Wilshere as a strong enough dribbler or with enough game intelligence to unshackle himself, Batty would drag him into a kicking match and I think his temper would play against him.

I can't see Hendry handling Ronaldo if he can get at him 1-1. He can switch wings and give Bridge more trouble than he has the ability to handle. I'd say Bridge and Hendry are the standout weaknesses in that side. Ronaldo has too much for both and can attack them bending the defence out of shape, Ginola is going to hog his touchline and will keep Sagna busy. Gilberto isn't going to know whether he needs to help out Bridge (the weaker of the 2) of give Sagna a digout. If Ronaldo doubles up with Ginola on either side of the pitch (both very good at cutting in) they can free up Irwin to get wide, he's an excellent crosser of the ball and Klinsmann will live off it.

I'm going with Buckets unit but i think he has issues with O'Shea (not a great FB) paired with Ginola. I just dont think Rics team have enough to exploit it. Only way for Rics team to prosper would be to disrupt the supply lines by pressing batty and de jong who are clumsy enough in distribution. That can probably be bypassed by pulling VdV a little deeper, but he isn't the most mobile and can sometimes be hussled out of a game.

Tight game, Ronaldo gets frustrated and carries from deep, defenders rush out to him, he slips it out to Haircut100 who lets it run through his legs, Irwin has bombed in behind the back 4. Whips over an unplayable cross to Klinsmann who volleys it directly into the stansion. Wilshere implodes and gets sent off shortly after. Frankie Lampard curses him in Latin.

eagle eye

This is an extremely tight match and in the end for me it came down to the injury prone players. Too often this game will be 9 men vs 10 with Bridge, Walcott and Ronny Johnsen all very injury prone players for most of their peak years.

For that reason and the fact that Bridge is going to be on Ronaldo and likely gets injured trying to mark him I have to go for Buckety.

SlickRic

one vote in it so far going by the write ups.

i think it's very fair that it's that close.

Frankie Lee

15 minutes to go in this classic.

Frankie Lee

Unless I am mistaken Bucketybuck takes it 9-8. A massive win against one of the pre tournament favourites.

Winston Payne

I've taken it as near to the wire as I dare with my decision. There's less than ninety minutes left as I type this up so it's time to hop to it.


bucketybuck's defence VS SlickRic's attack
It's a very solid defence and it needs to be against the pace and variation of attack that SlickRic's side possesses. Stam and Johnsen were both very good in the Treble year, but Aguero is the kind of forward that Stam didn't like facing, a quick striker with the ability to dribble. Anelka and Ronaldo both gave Stam bother in '98 and Aguero is a real threat against him. I don't see many goals in this game but I can't say bucketybuck will keep a clean sheet either. Pires against Irwin is an even match.

Bridge will support the attack but I don't think crosses are much of an option with Aguero in the side and against the aerial power of bucketybuck's defence. Maybe a slight concern with Ronaldo not tracking back and him and Pires joining up.

John O'Shea was a very solid full back earlier in his career. Showing the form that saw him start a Champions League Final I can see him coping with Walcott. Sagna was never the most penetrative of support. His crossing is probably his strongest suit, and he's not going to dribble past people.


The midfield battle:
Hard going in here. De Jong against Lampard is a very fitting duel. I think it should be remembered just how solid a presence De Jong was in his time in the league, in particular his title winning season with City. He'd have the physique and reading of the game necessary to present a real obstacle for Lampard. I think Batty will really rattle Wilshere. Wilshere passes adroitly enough and can dribble on occasion, but his big-game temperament is in question. Batty is just as mobile and was a reliable passer himself. I can't see Van Der Vaart escaping Gilberto Silva too often. Gilberto was a holding midfielder of real distinction, and Van Der Vaart is in a real struggle paired against him in general play. Gilberto was a very disciplined player and would have no problem keeping an eye on Van Der Vaart while SlickRic's side enjoyed possession.


bucketybuck's attack VS SlickRic's defence:
Klinsmann is up against it in this duel without support, but luckily he has it immediately behind him and out wide. SlickRic's defenders might struggle with some facets of Klinsmann's play individually (Hendry with his movement, Desailly aerially) but both can cover for each others weaknesses with their own strength.

Ronaldo will go right over Bridge most of the time. Bridge was a decent tackler but never to the degree that I'd back him to win this duel, and he's not as fast as Ronaldo either. I would not back Ginola to replicate his teammate's success however. Sagna has been very solid in his career. I rate Sagna's first season in England as his best and 07/08 Sagna has the better of David Ginola any year for my money.


The balance of the game:
I think SlickRic will edge possession, but that's as far as I'd put it. I really can see Batty rattling Wilshere completely, and that disrupts the rhythm of SlickRic's team. I think the pairing of Irwin-Ronaldo is also stronger than Bridge-Pires, but not overwhelmingly so. It's a stalemate on the other side of the pitch. Walcott would be very isolated in this game I think, he can't come off the line to the same degree as any of the other wingers and he'd be well looked after by O'Shea. I also think there wouldn't be a huge degree of space for him to run into as it's not a high pressing defence. It's in the other defence that the game is won for me. Ronaldo on set pieces is a big concern as he'd be able to go into the box with any of Irwin, Ginola, or Van Der Vaart taking them. Hendry can only mark one of him or Klinsmann. Gilberto can only pick up one of Ronaldo or Van Der Vaart outside the box. I was never fully sold on Desailly in the air in his time in the league. I'd back Ronaldo to score one in this game from either a break or a set piece, and I think Klinsmann would poach one too. Aguero to net for SlickRic. bucketybuck to win 2-1.

Donnielighto

I know I missed it and I'm gutted as this has two of the frontrunners so early. Buckety has it slightly worse off in midfield but is significantly ahead in attack and defensive units. buckety, countering comfortably.

LuckyLloyd

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Unless I am mistaken Bucketybuck takes it 9-8. A massive win against one of the pre tournament favourites.

I'm confused here - the poll was 20 - 20. Does that mean that only written opinions count? My apologies as I voted for each match thus far without having the time to write an analysis.

bucketybuck

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm confused here - the poll was 20 - 20. Does that mean that only written opinions count? My apologies as I voted for each match thus far without having the time to write an analysis.

Only the votes from people who posted their reasoning in the thread count. If those votes are tied then the poll results are used.

SlickRic

Donnielighto wrote: »

I know I missed it and I'm gutted as this has two of the frontrunners so early. Buckety has it slightly worse off in midfield but is significantly ahead in attack and defensive units. buckety, countering comfortably.

I've no problem with buckety winning, but 'significantly ahead in attack and defensive units' is ridiculous.

In defence, you're a Utd fan aren't you? makes sense why you'd think buckety's defence kicks mine's ass.

In attack, I honestly don't know how he's 'significantly ahead'? You do know Aguero, Pires and Lampard are 3 Premier League greats yeah?