Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

What if Healy picks up a minor unrelated injury though. If we want to keep him in the squad but can't play him were in trouble.

Just put Furlong on the bench - if it takes more than 10 days to recover, it isn't minor.

Yeah_Right

Tompatrick wrote: »

Most tightheads can play loose head easily enough. It doesn't work the other way around.

Exactly. Switching from TH to LH is much easier than the other way round. And someone else mentioned Furlong had played LH for the u20 which would have only been a couple of years ago. I imagine he has spent a lot of time there over the past couple of months in the training camp. I don't think it will be an issue.

ronanc1000

Pre squad call I said Boss would be dropped, but I didn't see Cave getting a place, I would have dropped Boss to bring in Trimble IMO.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't follow?

Boss, Williams, TOL, Marmion, Marshall, Cooney, etc.

Some wouldn't get onto a good H/Cup team not to mind represent their country in a World Cup.

Mr Tickle

ronanc1000 wrote: »

Pre squad call I said Boss would be dropped, but I didn't see Cave getting a place, I would have dropped Boss to bring in Trimble IMO.

I suppose the problem was a lack of a second outright 12. Madigan is too useful on the bench and the other options involve a bit of shuffling. Cave just lets us rest henshaw for the smaller games.

What i would say is that if either Earls or Fitz had been clearly better than the other then the other would have been left at home and Trimble brought. It looks a little like he couldn't choose between the two so he picked both.

Buer

phog wrote: »

Boss, Williams, TOL, Marmion, Marshall, Cooney, etc.

Some wouldn't get onto a good H/Cup team not to mind represent their country in a World Cup.

Well, none of them bar Cooney (which is debatable) are even first choice for their provinces, really so it's not a surprise.

Buer

Tompatrick wrote: »

Most tightheads can play loose head easily enough. It doesn't work the other way around.

They really can't. Different angles, different pressure on them. It's easier to do, certainly, but if they could do it easily enough, they would.

Remember the last RWC when we brought Tony Buckley to cover loosehead? He was deemed the best option of any tighthead at loosehead and he was abysmal there.

Guys like Matt Stevens or Gethin Jenkins who have genuinely been able to play both sides to a high level are very rare.

phog

Buer wrote: »

Well, none of them bar Cooney (which is debatable) are even first choice for their provinces, really so it's not a surprise.

We've four provinces and end up with only two scrumhalves that can be relied on for the world cup.

There's a huge step back in quality from Murray to any of the pretenders.

total former

Buer wrote: »

Well, none of them bar Cooney (which is debatable) are even first choice for their provinces, really so it's not a surprise.

I think it's a shocking indictment of Ulster rugby that they haven't produced someone capable of displacing Ruan Pienaar...

We've just named the strongest RWC squad in our history and a lot of the players left behind would have walked into previous squads, I think the provinces are doing just fine in producing players. Some people are just never happy.

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

We've four provinces and end up with only two scrumhalves that can be relied on for the world cup.

There's a huge step back in quality from Murray to any of the pretenders.

Are the provinces supposed to just conjure scrum halves out of thin air? I don't see what Munster could have done to make Sheridan or Williams any better than they are for example, I wouldn't blame Munster.

seanm187

Buer wrote: »

Remember the last RWC when we brought Tony Buckley to cover loosehead? He was deemed the best option of any tighthead at loosehead and he was abysmal there.

Guys like Matt Stevens or Gethin Jenkins who have genuinely been able to play both sides to a high level are very rare.

Tony Buckley just wasn't a very good prop to begin with, so that voids that argument. I have never seen Gethin Jenkins every play anywhere other than loosehead also..

padser

phog wrote: »

We've four provinces and end up with only two scrumhalves that can be relied on for the world cup.

There's a huge step back in quality from Murray to any of the pretenders.

We have four provinces. Their top scrumhalves are

1) Conor Murray - Has Lions caps, would likely be Lions starter if there was a tour now
2) Eoin Redden - 4 Europeans cups with two different teams
3) Piennar - one of the best scrum halves in the world
4) Marrmion - not great to be fair

After that, we are complaining that the second and third scrumhalves at each province are not up to test level.

Not really a huge surprise....Same with most positions

Buer

phog wrote: »

We've four provinces and end up with only two scrumhalves that can be relied on for the world cup.

There's a huge step back in quality from Murray to any of the pretenders.

Such is life. We've only one guy who we could really count on at inside centre. Cave only ever started a couple of low level internationals there.

We've only 4 provinces, we're never going to be able to have great depth in specialist positions. At 2, 9, 10 and 12 we've only got 2-3 lads who can realistically play there in a big test match at this point.

smiley_face

Bit obvious perhaps, but just for the record, these were the surprises for me:
White instead of Moore.
Furlong instead of Bent.
Cave instead of Boss or Marmion.
Dave Kearney instead of Trimble.
Both Earls & Fitz together instead of Jones plus one of Earls or Fitz.

Utah_Saint

padser wrote: »

We have four provinces. Their top scrumhalves are

1) Conor Murray - Has Lions caps, would likely be Lions starter if there was a tour now
2) Eoin Redden - 4 Europeans cups with two different teams
3) Piennar - one of the best scrum halves in the world
4) Marrmion - not great to be fair

After that, we are complaining that the second and third scrumhalves at each province are not up to test level.

Not really a huge surprise....Same with most positions

I def think ulster could have done more to utilise Ruan to develop a top quality Scrum Half...

Outside of Ruan ulster probably have the worst Scrum Half options

vienne86

smiley_face wrote: »

Bit obvious perhaps, but just for the record, these were the surprises for me:
White instead of Moore.
Furlong instead of Bent.
Cave instead of Boss or Marmion.
Dave Kearney instead of Trimble.
Both Earls & Fitz together instead of Jones plus one of Earls or Fitz.

I agree with the first three. I expected Kearney to be included, but didn't think Jones would travel.

smiley_face

total former wrote: »

The scrum half thing I can live with, both the key guys are fully fit and it's not the most attritional position. I don't agree with it but there's some logic.

The loosehead call is a massive gamble. I just don't get it.

I'd have to agree, but only thing I can think of is that Tadhg is solid enough to start or bench at Loose Head against Canada and Romania, and bench at Loose Head against Italy and France. Break glass in case of emergency only.
McGrath can last 80 minutes if he has to, if Healy can't play.

irishbucsfan

I guess they may feel that Murray and Reddan can play every game at 9 and 21, perhaps Reddan starting the first 2 with Murray on the bench and then switching round.

I don't think Madigan will play there unless there's an emergency. Not sure why we'd take that risk.

The risk at loose head is far greater. Much more attritional position. I like Furlong but I don't particularly enjoy the idea of finding out what he's like out of position.

Leslie91

The surprises as I see it... the choice of props.

Was sure it'd be Healy Killer McGrath Ross Moore (if fit and if not White, who looked v poor at the w/e). Did not see Furlong making it.

I know the back 3 was a big call, but still surprised Trimble is odd man out. Thought he would have made it over one of Earls/Fitz.

Surprised at Cave over a 3rd 9.

awec

I don't understand the selections for LH. It makes no sense.

Is this going to be the defining moment of the 2015 world cup? In the past it was undercooked players, are we going to be looking back in 5 years time at the strange selections made at loosehead and 9?

phog

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Are the provinces supposed to just conjure scrum halves out of thin air? I don't see what Munster could have done to make Sheridan or Williams any better than they are for example, I wouldn't blame Munster.

The provinces exist to develop players, perhaps, we've been lucky with Stringer, Murray, Reddan, TOL & Boss all being international standard and maybe we'll have to settle for less for a while.

Tox56

awec wrote: »

I don't understand the selections for LH. It makes no sense.

Is this going to be the defining moment of the 2015 world cup? In the past it was undercooked players, are we going to be looking back in 5 years time at the strange selections made at loosehead and 9?

I have questioned seemingly strange calls from Schmidt and been proven wrong way too many times to be overly concerned. He is obviously human and he has made mistakes, but he's been proven right so often that if he does something you just have to assume it has a good reason. We'll see after the tournament

thomond2006

James Hart could have been given an opportunity perhaps. As a 9 who covers 10 and kicks goals he might have been a handy RWC squad player. When he is out of contract in 2017 I think the provinces will show interest.

Murray is considerably ahead of his chasers but that is equally a testament to his own ability.

b.gud

FWIW in the official IRFU gallery
Hensahw and Payne are listed as Centre/Fullback.
Zebo is listed as winger/fullback
Madigan is listed as out-half/utility back
Earls and Fitz are listed as Winger/centre

Quin_Dub

Buer wrote: »

They really can't. Different angles, different pressure on them. It's easier to do, certainly, but if they could do it easily enough, they would.

Remember the last RWC when we brought Tony Buckley to cover loosehead? He was deemed the best option of any tighthead at loosehead and he was abysmal there.

Guys like Matt Stevens or Gethin Jenkins who have genuinely been able to play both sides to a high level are very rare.

Disagree..

A tight-head can typically play loose head without much difficulty in terms of scrummaging. The pressures are greatly reduced on the LH side compared to TH so it's actually quite easy..TBH moving from Right to Left in the scrum is actually like a little holiday!!

Tight-heads are almost universally larger , squarer and less mobile than L/H's- It's the nature of the position..

However with a T/H on the L/H side that typically means you give up a ball-carrier and a fair degree of mobility. That's perfectly fine for Bench cover..just not for starting bigger games..


If you think of the modern props out there - All the mobile ball-carrying ones are Loose-heads ..I struggle to name a T/H that has a reputation for mobility and/or ball carrying..

They are all loose-heads - Healy , Marler , Jenkins, Debaty , Mtawarira etc.

Noopti

White isn't a surprise. The warning signs re Moore have been apparent for a few weeks now, and White has done enough to warrant his inclusion.

jacothelad

Buer wrote: »

Such is life. We've only one guy who we could really count on at inside centre. Cave only ever started a couple of low level internationals there.

We've only 4 provinces, we're never going to be able to have great depth in specialist positions. At 2, 9, 10 and 12 we've only got 2-3 lads who can realistically play there in a big test match at this point.

This is not the case. Luke Marshall is a better 12 than Cave. McCloskey is a better 12 than Cave. Olding is a better 12 than Cave. Cave is adept enough at 12 being a big enough guy and he is exceptional at 13 for Ulster. I think he has been selected because he can do both jobs. We have also lost a few guys to other leagues who might have developed into high class centres if they had stayed here. Ian Whitten for example. Reid at Leinster has always looked to me to have a bit of class. Farrell in France is a very good player. It's not that we don't have the players, rather there is a log jam at 12 at Ravenspan.

mfceiling

total former wrote: »

I think it's a shocking indictment of Ulster rugby that they haven't produced someone capable of displacing Ruan Pienaar...

We've just named the strongest RWC squad in our history and a lot of the players left behind would have walked into previous squads, I think the provinces are doing just fine in producing players. Some people are just never happy.

I don't think it's Ulster rugby that can be blamed for not bringing on a scrum half that's better than pienaar. With that logic we should have brought on a 6 that was better than ferris (pipe down about Henderson awec!!) or a hooker that's better than Best.

Sometimes the academy or schools just don't bring on an exceptional player in a certain position. We've been lucky with centres this past few years. Who knows in 5 years time we could be tripping over back rows.

jacothelad

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I def think ulster could have done more to utilise Ruan to develop a top quality Scrum Half...

Outside of Ruan ulster probably have the worst Scrum Half options

Yes but when Pienaar was signed it was envisaged that it would be him and Boss. Marshall's contract was not being renewed. It was hoped that Ian Porter would develop as he looked promising and was at the time an excellent goal kicker.

I would that Ulster would be trying to tempt Hart back to Ireland. he is certainly better than Marshall and Shanahan. Apparently they have to cut the grass extra short when Shanahan is playing so he doesn't get lost.:D

Buer

seanm187 wrote: »

Tony Buckley just wasn't a very good prop to begin with, so that voids that argument. I have never seen Gethin Jenkins every play anywhere other than loosehead also..

It doesn't void it. If anything, it strengthens it. Tony Buckley was deemed the best tighthead able to cover loosehead. If tightheads could easily do it, they'd have put anyone there ahead of him. That was the best we could do.

The majority of Jenkins' early caps were at tighthead. He only fully became a loosehead the season of his first Lions tour.

Quint2010

Is it in the managements thinking to start Healy against Canada or Romania I wonder? He badly needs game time before Italy/France I would have thought?

Peregrine

I'm a bit shocked at some of those picks but I'll trust Saint Joe.

Buer

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Disagree..

A tight-head can typically play loose head without much difficulty in terms of scrummaging. The pressures are greatly reduced on the LH side compared to TH so it's actually quite easy..TBH moving from Right to Left in the scrum is actually like a little holiday!!

Tight-heads are almost universally larger , squarer and less mobile than L/H's- It's the nature of the position..

And that's one of the reasons they don't transition "easily". They're powerful, broad across the chest and shoulders, developed for taking the hit on both sides.

Looseheads are designed to bring their power from their hips and legs (which assists them in their ball carrying). It's not often you get a tighthead who can comfortably play both sides.

The pressure on them is less at loosehead but it's a very different technique also. Unless they've trained a lot there and are used to it, you'll not have much joy as a tighthead moving over and thinking it's going to be "a little holiday".

Looseheads try to get under and drive up through their opposite number. Tightheads try to stay down and square and drive through the opposition hooker/loosehead.

If there was, there'd be a glut of examples of guys who play tighthead who move across to loosehead when required but there isn't nor was there before the 23 man squads.

seanm187

Buer wrote: »

It doesn't void it. If anything, it strengthens it. Tony Buckley was deemed the best tighthead able to cover loosehead. If tightheads could easily do it, they'd have put anyone there ahead of him. That was the best we could do.

The majority of Jenkins' early caps were at tighthead. He only fully became a loosehead the season of his first Lions tour.

I didnt know that about Jenkins.. TBH, he was probably moved to LH because he wasnt good enough to be TH, as LH is less difficult..

Regarding Buckley, he was put there as you say because we had nobody else.. That was the sole reasoning. If we had a better option at the time, someone else would have been chosen (notwithstanding Kindeys Munster bias, and I'm a Munster supporter). Read post 6732 also..

seanm187

Buer wrote: »

It doesn't void it. If anything, it strengthens it. Tony Buckley was deemed the best tighthead able to cover loosehead. If tightheads could easily do it, they'd have put anyone there ahead of him. That was the best we could do.

The majority of Jenkins' early caps were at tighthead. He only fully became a loosehead the season of his first Lions tour.

I didnt know that about Jenkins.. TBH, he was probably moved to LH because he wasnt good enough to be TH, as LH is less difficult..

Regarding Buckley, he was put there as you say because we had nobody else.. That was the sole reasoning. If we had a better option at the time, someone else would have been chosen (notwithstanding Kindeys Munster bias, and I'm a Munster supporter).

alias no.9

Buer wrote: »

It doesn't void it. If anything, it strengthens it. Tony Buckley was deemed the best tighthead able to cover loosehead. If tightheads could easily do it, they'd have put anyone there ahead of him. That was the best we could do.

There wasn't much difference in Tony Buckleys scrumaging at loose head compared to tight head.

He had some excellent ball skills for a prop and was very effective at the ruck but the harsh reality is that he was probably more of a second row that got too heavy to lift than either a loose head or tight head prop.

phog

total former wrote: »

I think it's a shocking indictment of Ulster rugby that they haven't produced someone capable of displacing Ruan Pienaar...

We've just named the strongest RWC squad in our history and a lot of the players left behind would have walked into previous squads, I think the provinces are doing just fine in producing players. Some people are just never happy.

mfceiling wrote: »

I don't think it's Ulster rugby that can be blamed for not bringing on a scrum half that's better than pienaar. With that logic we should have brought on a 6 that was better than ferris (pipe down about Henderson awec!!) or a hooker that's better than Best.

Sometimes the academy or schools just don't bring on an exceptional player in a certain position. We've been lucky with centres this past few years. Who knows in 5 years time we could be tripping over back rows.

Who's blaming Ulster for not producing someone better than Pienaar?

Is anyone blaming Munster for not having someone better than Murray?

It's what behind them is the issue - Boss, Williams, Marshall, etc.

LostArt

Quint2010 wrote: »

Is it in the managements thinking to start Healy against Canada or Romania I wonder? He badly needs game time before Italy/France I would have thought?

I think so, probably start at least one of them then maybe bench for Italy

Buer

seanm187 wrote: »

Regarding Buckley, he was put there as you say because we had nobody else.. That was the sole reasoning. If we had a better option at the time, someone else would have been chosen (notwithstanding Kindeys Munster bias, and I'm a Munster supporter).

But that's my entire point? If they could move "easily enough" it would have been simple to have someone else there. They don't move easily. There are very few who can do it.

total former

Quint2010 wrote: »

Is it in the managements thinking to start Healy against Canada or Romania I wonder? He badly needs game time before Italy/France I would have thought?

They absolutely have to. If he's not fit enough to start against the minnows, he sure as hell isn't fit enough to bench against Italy or France.

irishbucsfan

There is still something interesting to learn from the press conference today, will there really be players from outside the 31 involved on Saturday? I suppose it may be necessary

Is there a press conference where he explains these decisions?

The Pheasant2

molloyjh wrote: »

Jaysus, Trimble doesn't even make that squad!? Harsh.

Haha I presumed his exclusion was based on not being fit! Otherwise yeah he makes that squad

total former

phog wrote: »

Who's blaming Ulster for not producing someone better than Pienaar?

Is anyone blaming Munster for not having someone better than Murray?

It's what behind them is the issue - Boss, Williams, Marshall, etc.

It's not realistic to expect all the second-choice guys at each province to be test quality.

For some badly-needed perspective:

The last time we took two scrum-halves was 1999 - Tom Tierney and Brian O'Meara. They were both, excuse my bluntness, absolutely f**king awful and their international careers essentially ended with that RWC.

We brought Neil Doak to the 2003 World Cup. I'll say that again; Neil Doak. At a world cup. As back-up to Guy Easterby.

If you'd offered Gatland or Eddie the option of a 34-year old Boss, or even Marmion, in 1999 or 2003, they'd have taken the hand off you.

We're in a comparative golden age of scrum-halves right now.

Larbre34

If the emergency call came in now, I'd still be lifting the phone to Peter Stringer over Isaac Boss or Kieran Marmion. The man is supremely fit and avoided much damage over his career, he could give you a top level 40 mins, certainly better than Boss....

phog

total former wrote: »

It's not realistic to expect all the second-choice guys at each province to be test quality.

For some badly-needed perspective:

The last time we took two scrum-halves was 1999 - Tom Tierney and Brian O'Meara. They were both, excuse my bluntness, absolutely f**king awful and their international careers essentially ended with that RWC.

We brought Neil Doak to the 2003 World Cup. I'll say that again; Neil Doak. At a world cup. As back-up to Guy Easterby.

If you'd offered Gatland or Eddie the option of a 34-year old Boss, or even Marmion, in 1999 or 2003, they'd have taken the hand off you.

We're in a comparative golden age of scrum-halves right now.

As a squad we've come a long way but with regards to the bolded bit we are in our hole in a golden age unless you mean the age of Boss and Reddan.

Buer

Larbre34 wrote: »

If the emergency call came in now, I'd still be lifting the phone to Peter Stringer over Isaac Boss or Kieran Marmion. The man is supremely fit and avoided much damage over his career, he could give you a top level 40 mins, certainly better than Boss....

On what basis? He was primarily a sub for Bath who decided not to renew his deal. In the biggest start he had there, he went pretty poorly in the Prem final. Stringer is viewed hugely through rose tinted glasses. The fact is that Saracens, Bath, Newcastle and Sale have all signed him now and released him (well, Sale haven't released him yet given they only signed him).

Also, I don't think there's another scrum half less suited to role Schmidt wants from his 9.

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

As a squad we've come a long way but with regards to the bolded bit we are in our hole in a golden age unless you mean the age of Boss and Reddan.

A comparative golden age. Comparative!

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

As a squad we've come a long way but with regards to the bolded bit we are in our hole in a golden age unless you mean the age of Boss and Reddan.

He said comparative tbf.

Edit: Damn you IBF...

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

On what basis? He was primarily a sub for Bath who decided not to renew his deal. In the biggest start he had there, he went pretty poorly in the Prem final. Stringer is viewed hugely through rose tinted glasses. The fact is that Saracens, Bath, Newcastle and Sale have all signed him now and released him.

Also, I don't think there's another scrum half less suited to role Schmidt wants from his 9.

It's the Bob Casey effect in full swing!