Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

Tox56

phog wrote: »

As a squad we've come a long way but with regards to the bolded bit we are in our hole in a golden age unless you mean the age of Boss and Reddan.

Im pretty sure his point is that it only seems so terrible because the rest of our squad is, by our standards at least, excellent, the best we've ever had in terms of quality and depth.

Our 5th choice backrower is Murphy who stepped in seamlessly at no. 8 against England in the six nations, and we're leaving players like Ruddock and TOD at home. If you compare the scrumhalf situation to that, it looks pretty dire. But if you compare the scrumhalf situation against Ireland squads of the past, we're not doing that badly. Its just the reality that we're a small country and the type of depth we currently have in the backrow/back 3 cant be repeated everywhere.

phog

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A comparative golden age. Comparative!

thomond2006 wrote: »

He said comparative tbf.

Edit: Damn you IBF...

He did, comparative to early professional era or to international squads?

If people are happy with Boss being 3rd best scrumhalf then so be it.

I'm not.

Let's leave it there.

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

He did, comparative to early professional era or to international squads?

If people are happy with Boss being 3rd best scrumhalf then so be it.

I'm not.

Let's leave it there.

Comparative to earlier Ireland RWC squads.

I think 2015 Murray-Reddan-Boss as a fit trio is marginally better than Murray-Reddan-Boss of 2011, given how much Murray has improved in 4 years.

I'm not happy with Boss being 3rd best 9 and ideally Marmion or Hart would have gotten (more) opportunities but it is what it is and unless injury strikes it's not going to matter a jot.

smiley_face

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Disagree..

A tight-head can typically play loose head without much difficulty in terms of scrummaging. The pressures are greatly reduced on the LH side compared to TH so it's actually quite easy..TBH moving from Right to Left in the scrum is actually like a little holiday!!

Tight-heads are almost universally larger , squarer and less mobile than L/H's- It's the nature of the position..

However with a T/H on the L/H side that typically means you give up a ball-carrier and a fair degree of mobility. That's perfectly fine for Bench cover..just not for starting bigger games..


If you think of the modern props out there - All the mobile ball-carrying ones are Loose-heads ..I struggle to name a T/H that has a reputation for mobility and/or ball carrying..

They are all loose-heads - Healy , Marler , Jenkins, Debaty , Mtawarira etc.

Italy's stalwart Tight Head prop, Martin Castrogiovanni, is an excellent ball-carrier in the loose.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/2015/0901/724875-ireland-rwc-squad/

lol

Perhaps the most unlucky player in the extended squad, Kilcoyne is a wonderfully complete player that – like Healy – runs at defences like a barrel-chested, wild baboon.

total former

phog wrote: »

He did, comparative to early professional era or to international squads?

Ummm, was it not obvious from the comparison with the 1999 and 2003 squads?

pickarooney

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Disagree..

A tight-head can typically play loose head without much difficulty in terms of scrummaging. The pressures are greatly reduced on the LH side compared to TH so it's actually quite easy..TBH moving from Right to Left in the scrum is actually like a little holiday!!

Tight-heads are almost universally larger , squarer and less mobile than L/H's- It's the nature of the position..

However with a T/H on the L/H side that typically means you give up a ball-carrier and a fair degree of mobility. That's perfectly fine for Bench cover..just not for starting bigger games..


If you think of the modern props out there - All the mobile ball-carrying ones are Loose-heads ..I struggle to name a T/H that has a reputation for mobility and/or ball carrying..

They are all loose-heads - Healy , Marler , Jenkins, Debaty , Mtawarira etc.

WP Nel

smiley_face

Buer wrote: »

It doesn't void it. If anything, it strengthens it. Tony Buckley was deemed the best tighthead able to cover loosehead. If tightheads could easily do it, they'd have put anyone there ahead of him. That was the best we could do.

The majority of Jenkins' early caps were at tighthead. He only fully became a loosehead the season of his first Lions tour.

Nit-picking here, but is it not the case that once he switched positions he never played tighthead again?
I think there's a place for a prop in a RWC squad that can switch over and back if needs be.

Buer

smiley_face wrote: »

Nit-picking here, but is it not the case that once he switched positions he never played tighthead again?
I think there's a place for a prop in a RWC squad that can switch over and back if needs be.

Who? Jenkins? He played a couple of his first 10-15 caps at loosehead but most at tight which he kept returning to. He was a tighthead in the 2003 RWC and regularly moved between the two positions for Cardiff and Bridgend in his first few seasons as a pro.

It was the emergence of Adam Jones in the 2005 6N that saw him move to loosehead permanently.

smiley_face

It's a point though, that the provinces don't really try to produce a player that can cover 9 and 10, or a player that can cover 1 and 2.
If the provinces were given a directive to promote the production of those types of players we would have better options for future world cups.
The provinces would have to train players and most importantly give them a rotation in competitive matches.
I think 1 and 2 are a bit closer to each other than 3 in terms of physical size, and the 9 and 10 are similar in kicking and passing skills,
and the modern 9 can be as big or even bigger than the modern 10.

padser

Tox56 wrote: »

I have questioned seemingly strange calls from Schmidt and been proven wrong way too many times to be overly concerned. He is obviously human and he has made mistakes, but he's been proven right so often that if he does something you just have to assume it has a good reason. We'll see after the tournament

I agree.

Joe has made so many genius calls in the past that we have to assume that what looks absolutely bonkers to us is, in fact, a masterstroke.

thebaz

is Moore not selected due to injury ? - he looked class last season at international level - otherwise happy eneogh - Trimble is very unlucky, but I assume this is due to injury too

Yeah_Right

A TH who has never practised or played at LH in his career would not be able to suddenly play LH especially in a test match. However a TH with some experience of playing LH (like Furlong) can be taught to play LH well enough to cover the position if necessary.

I think the bigger issue with going with Furlong, is his age and experience. Props don't tend to hit their peak until late 20s into their early 30s. There are dozens of examples of talented young props (LH and TH) getting their arses handed to them a few times by older opponents before they become good.

Mr Tickle

smiley_face wrote: »

It's a point though, that the provinces don't really try to produce a player that can cover 9 and 10, or a player that can cover 1 and 2.
If the provinces were given a directive to promote the production of those types of players we would have better options for future world cups.
The provinces would have to train players and most importantly give them a rotation in competitive matches.
I think 1 and 2 are a bit closer to each other than 3 in terms of physical size, and the 9 and 10 are similar in kicking and passing skills,
and the modern 9 can be as big or even bigger than the modern 10.

Not a bad idea to have around. Take Madigan, Jackson, Hanrahan, marmion and anyone else with a bit of promise and send them off to nine-and-a-half school some summer. Could lead to some interesting players coming out of it.

Clareman

smiley_face wrote: »

It's a point though, that the provinces don't really try to produce a player that can cover 9 and 10, or a player that can cover 1 and 2.
If the provinces were given a directive to promote the production of those types of players we would have better options for future world cups.
The provinces would have to train players and most importantly give them a rotation in competitive matches.
I think 1 and 2 are a bit closer to each other than 3 in terms of physical size, and the 9 and 10 are similar in kicking and passing skills,
and the modern 9 can be as big or even bigger than the modern 10.

Didnt' France try for a few years to produce 9s who were 10s and 10s who were 9s, they just ended up being ok in both positions.

phog

total former wrote: »

Ummm, was it not obvious from the comparison with the 1999 and 2003 squads?

Using that as a benchmark Frank Murphy is unlucky not the be travelling.

Podge_irl

When did Furlong play LH at U20s? All I remember is him playing TH (and doing so exceptionally well).

total former

phog wrote: »

Using that as a benchmark Frank Murphy is unlucky not the be travelling.

If he'd been around in 99 or 03 he probably would have, which just proves my point even more.

padser

Clareman wrote: »

Didnt' France try for a few years to produce 9s who were 10s and 10s who were 9s, they just ended up being ok in both positions.

I think they produced one or two who were reasonably handy......

That said, it's difficult to come up with many examples of players who are genuinely world class in both positions....but I guess that's to be expected

wp_rathead

phog wrote: »

Using that as a benchmark Frank Murphy is unlucky not the be travelling.

Off topic, but he was reffing at the Limerick Sevens event

CatFromHue

Best, Cronin, Strauss
Healy, McGrath
Ross, White, Furlong
POC, Toner, Hendserson, Ryan
Henry, Murphy, SOB, POM,
Heaslip

Murray, Reddan,
Sexton, PJ, Madigan
Henshaw, Payne, Cave
Bowe, Earls, Fitzgerald, DK, Zebo
RK

Fitzgerald and Earls cover the centres
Zebo covers the 15
Murphy covers No.8
Henderson covers back and second row
I still can't see Madigan covering 9

It's a good squad, I like it.

Edit: Just watching the press conference now and Madigan will cover scrum half but at the start of the conference Schmidt mentioned how easily, and readily, they'd call up Boss in the event of an injury.

Furlong is also the third LH

Buer

Podge_irl wrote: »

When did Furlong play LH at U20s? All I remember is him playing TH (and doing so exceptionally well).

He didn't. I posted yesterday that he played for Ireland underage. I guess I should have been clearer as people inferred this was for Ireland U20.

He played loosehead for the Irish U18 Youth team.

gamma001

healy fit to play against england

wittycynic

gamma001 wrote: »

healy fit to play against england

It worries me that a guy who was supposedly touch and go for the whole tournament is now miraculously able to play our next warm up. There's no point in risking him in what will be a tough test in Twickenham. Better give him an extra couple of weeks and introduce him versus Canada or Romania.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

He didn't. I posted yesterday that he played for Ireland underage. I guess I should have been clearer as people inferred this was for Ireland U20.

He played loosehead for the Irish U18 Youth team.

I see, thanks.

Not exactly phenomenally relevant experience.

evil_seed

gamma001 wrote: »

healy fit to play against england

Yeah_Right

Podge_irl wrote: »

I see, thanks.

Not exactly phenomenally relevant experience.

I took it from another poster that he had. He clarified that it was at u18 level. Thanks.
That's still not that long ago and like I said before, I'm sure he has been doing a lot of practice at LH. He obviously brings something to the team that the coaches like and thing think he can do a job for them despite his inexperience at both LH and TH.

The Rape of Lucretia

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I guess they may feel that Murray and Reddan can play every game at 9 and 21, perhaps Reddan starting the first 2 with Murray on the bench and then switching round.

A guy who contributed to some of this imperfect situation is Jackson. While a 9/10 combo player is nice, it is far less to expect an international level outhalf to be able to usefully provide back up elsewhere in the outside backs. Jackson is handicapped by being a 10 and nothing but, so offering no cover. Bringing 3 tens forced the Madigan-9 squeeze, in order to include Cave.

The situation only arises in a WC squad scenario, so wont hamper Jackson chances otherwise since far less of a problem for any other one off international game.

Podge_irl

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I took it from another poster that he had. He clarified that it was at u18 level. Thanks.
That's still not that long ago and like I said before, I'm sure he has been doing a lot of practice at LH. He obviously brings something to the team that the coaches like and thing think he can do a job for them despite his inexperience at both LH and TH.

Its 5(?) years ago and more to the point he was scrummaging against 17 year olds!

I'm not doubting that he has practiced in training and I don't disagree that moving tight to loose is easier than the reverse (based on my extensive experience :pac: ) but I also don't think its as easy to do so at international level as you claim. Surely we would see it more often were it so easy?

connachta

gamma001 wrote: »

ah you played vs georgia last year iirc

And 7 min against S-Af

connachta

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Marmion........... must be disappointed. Strange decision (if true), but there you go

No Boss ahead of him, so I'm ok with it:)

.ak

connachta wrote: »

No Boss ahead of him, so I'm ok with it:)

Schmidt said if there's an injury to any of the 9's they'd call up Boss.

connachta

b.gud wrote: »

FWIW in the official IRFU gallery
Hensahw and Payne are listed as Centre/Fullback.

Here we are, as I said:)

phog

wp_rathead wrote: »

Off topic, but he was reffing at the Limerick Sevens event

I didn't see him but I heard he did AR at the Munster v LI game last week. Good to see ex-players sticking with the game.

ionadnapokot

gamma001 wrote: »

healy fit to play against england

Fingers & toes crossed that he will still be in the matchday squad come Oct 11th (Fra)...and beyond!

padser

wittycynic wrote: »

It worries me that a guy who was supposedly touch and go for the whole tournament is now miraculously able to play our next warm up. There's no point in risking him in what will be a tough test in Twickenham. Better give him an extra couple of weeks and introduce him versus Canada or Romania.

If you saw Healy trying to recover fitness with Leinster last year you would understand that he needs a lot of games to get fit. After 3/4 runs off the bench he was still 20 yards behind the play in his first and second start (so 5th/6th game back).

If Healy plays against England, Romania, Canada and Italy (20/30/40 mins each game) I'd guess he will have 20/30 minute of test intensity rugby in him for the French and might be able to start a QF.

Even that's pushing it I think, but a run out against England is damn near essential for him.

Yeah_Right

Podge_irl wrote: »

Its 5(?) years ago and more to the point he was scrummaging against 17 year olds!

I'm not doubting that he has practiced in training and I don't disagree that moving tight to loose is easier than the reverse (based on my extensive experience :pac: ) but I also don't think its as easy to do so at international level as you claim. Surely we would see it more often were it so easy?

I never claimed it would be easy to do at this level. In fact I pointed out his inexperience at this level worries me. Honestly, I was surprised Furlong was taken ahead of Bent.

I believe we will only see him on the field at loosehead towards the end of a match that's in the bag AND that's only if Healy or McGrath had a niggle that needed rest for one game. The only chance of Furlong getting significant game time at LH is through a horrible combination of injuries, suspensions and bad timing.

connachta

.ak wrote: »

Schmidt said if there's an injury to any of the 9's they'd call up Boss.

But there's none ATM, so Boss isn't in the plane.
And don't forget provincial games will take place. 4 or 5 good ones for Marms and the reverse for Bossy, and Schmidt's opinion could change. As it changed about bringing only two scrummies

Squidgy Black

connachta wrote: »

But there's none ATM, so Boss isn't in the plane.

connachta

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Haha such a revealing pic. Boss protectors are Dark Vador's troops:D

Sangre

padser wrote: »

If you saw Healy trying to recover fitness with Leinster last year you would understand that he needs a lot of games to get fit. After 3/4 runs off the bench he was still 20 yards behind the play in his first and second start (so 5th/6th game back).

If Healy plays against England, Romania, Canada and Italy (20/30/40 mins each game) I'd guess he will have 20/30 minute of test intensity rugby in him for the French and might be able to start a QF.

Even that's pushing it I think, but a run out against England is damn near essential for him.

Well, he was out for a very long time with a lower body injury which would have impacted on his fitness training generally. That may not necessarily be the case here.

mfceiling

connachta wrote: »

But there's none ATM, so Boss isn't in the plane.
And don't forget provincial games will take place. 4 or 5 good ones for Marms and the reverse for Bossy, and Schmidt's opinion could change. As it changed about bringing only two scrummies

Keiran can you stop posting here and get back to training with connacht. I'm sure Joe will let you know if he needs you or not.

connachta

mfceiling wrote: »

Keiran can you stop posting here and get back to training with connacht. I'm sure Joe will let you know if he needs you or not.

Same for Boss, that's the important part:D

thomond2006

connachta wrote: »

Same for Boss, that's the important part:D

For the love of Jebus, let it go.

Wang King

thomond2006 wrote: »

For the love of Jebus, let it go.

Yeah, Joe saw the boss v Marmion debate on here and said "Fck it, I'm not bringing either of them, that'll learn those pesky boardsies"!

kuang1

Missed the press conference...what did joe say about Trimble? Injured?

total former

mfceiling wrote: »

Keiran can you stop posting here and get back to training with connacht. I'm sure Joe will let you know if he needs you or not.

I'd say Marmion would be absolutely mortified if he saw these posts being made on his behalf.

CatFromHue

kuang1 wrote: »

Missed the press conference...what did joe say about Trimble? Injured?

He didn't say he was injured but did say the injury after the first Wales game stopped him really competing in a very competitive area in the squad.

Utah_Saint

to save me reading through the many pages of this forum - Why was trimble left out in the end? was it injury ? did his foot flair up after the Ulster game?

Utah_Saint

CatFromHue wrote: »

He didn't say he was injured but did say the injury after the first Wales game stopped him really competing in a very competitive area in the squad.

very disappointing considering other players have been given every chance to prove fitness. Ah Well at least Ulster will be in better shape over the next few months!:)