Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

RobbieRuns

Kieran Marmion was sent back from camp to play for Connacht as Joe said that he needed game time, had a stormer, scored two tries...... did not do him much good !

Buer

Marmion was never in the mix, from what I can see. Even in Schmidt's comments, you get the impression KM was an afterthought. He spoke a bit about Boss and his performance against Scotland (went well, couple of bad passes, try wouldn't have been scored without him, brings a physicality to the team) and then mentioned Marmion in one sentence just while on the topic (went well against Munster) and not again.

I reckon the plan was to give KM a few minutes in the opening game as a token and then that was it, sending him back to Connacht periodically to allow him prepare for the season with them while keeping him on the periphery of the Irish squad in the event of injury as he plays a specialist position.

connachta

total former wrote: »

I'm so confused. The "mickey mouse" quote referred to the provinces' warm-up games.

Trimble came through 80 minutes in the Ulster game (and scored a try) and it didn't change the coach's mind.

On the other hand, Joe said that Cave's performance against Wales and his contribution in training is what won him the place in the squad. Just like Donnacha Ryan sealed his spot based entirely on the first Wales game. So performances for Ireland and in Ireland camp counted, performances for provinces seemed to count for very little.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

The games are much less important in determining the make up of the squad than you seem to be suggesting.
[...]
the squad is going to be selected primarily based on what they've been doing at Carton House, not what they've been doing in mickey mouse warm up games.

What I underlined about this, was that this quote, for exemple, underestimated widely the importance of the international friendlies. Players like Cave Furlong, D.Kearney Earls for example, earned their place because of the Irish games and not only trainning. And whatever some said, it could have been the same for Marmion. Games even against 2nd strings mattered, that's all I pointed out

rrpc

connachta wrote: »

The issue is he couldn't proove his consistant performance, and Schmidt wanted it so "Mickey mouse" games mattered more than the quote above predicted

So now it's 'consistent' performance in matches :rolleyes:

So how do you explain guys who had one appearance so far in the warm ups getting on the squad?

Tadhg Furlong
Tommy Bowe
Rob Kearney
Darren Cave
Jared Payne

That's just off the top of my head. I could have also said Jonny Sexton but that would be taking the p1ss

Edit: I see you've just argued against yourself in the preceding post, I shouldn't have bothered

connachta

rrpc wrote: »

So now it's 'consistent' performance in matches :rolleyes:

So how do you explain guys who had one appearance so far in the warm ups getting on the squad?

Tadhg Furlong
Tommy Bowe
Rob Kearney
Darren Cave
Jared Payne

All of them had 30 minutes of gametime at least, hadn't they?

connachta

rrpc wrote: »

Edit: I see you've just argued against yourself in the preceding post, I shouldn't have bothered

How? Where?

aimee1

connachta wrote: »

What I underlined about this, was that this quote, for exemple, underestimated widely the importance of the international friendlies. Players like Cave Furlong, D.Kearney Earls for example, earned their place because of the Irish games and not only trainning. And whatever some said, it could have been the same for Marmion. Games even against 2nd strings mattered, that's all I pointed out

Games against 2nd strings mattered for a few guys. There was probably 24 places nailed on before the wales game in cardiff and after scotland a few more places were decided [Ryan v Tuohy, Cave, Zebo]. Over the 3 games a few guys made contributions which JS was specifically looking for. They provided another indicator to the coaches who deliberated for 6 hours over at most 4-5 positions.

Im guessing Dave Kearneys first contribution against scotland in the build up to the zebo try would have made a statement to JS that DK can carry his training ground form into the test match arena. He also had a positive display against wales.

Cave, Ryan, Zebo, Fitz, Earls and Furlong probably likewise, for what JS wanted to see, and not want the random fan looks at. In the backs cases it sealed the fate of Jones, Trimble, McFadden not making the cut. The games in august only mattered in a small number of cases but not in how we think, but in how JS examines the performance in relation to training.

rrpc

connachta wrote: »

All of them had 30 minutes of gametime at least, hadn't they?

As had Trimble, what's your point? Or is consistency now measured by minutes instead of games?

connachta wrote: »

How? Where?

You used the instance of players with only one appearance making it because of that one appearance, not consistent appearances.

You are ignoring the fact that Trimble's main absence was not from warm up games where he was at worst twenty-five minutes shy of other players who made the squad but because of injury that severely reduced the amount of training time he had with the squad.

connachta

rrpc wrote: »

As had Trimble, what's your point? Or is consistency now measured by minutes instead of games?



You used the instance of players with only one appearance making it because of that one appearance, not consistent appearances.

You are ignoring the fact that Trimble's main absence was not from warm up games where he was at worst twenty-five minutes shy of other players who made the squad but because of injury that severely reduced the amount of training time he had with the squad.

consistency is measured by quality of the minutes played.
Schmidt could have taken the risk of bringing Moore if Furlong didn't played a really good 30-min shift

Zzippy

Buer wrote: »

Marmion was never in the mix, from what I can see. Even in Schmidt's comments, you get the impression KM was an afterthought. He spoke a bit about Boss and his performance against Scotland (went well, couple of bad passes, try wouldn't have been scored without him, brings a physicality to the team) and then mentioned Marmion in one sentence just while on the topic (went well against Munster) and not again.

I reckon the plan was to give KM a few minutes in the opening game as a token and then that was it, sending him back to Connacht periodically to allow him prepare for the season with them while keeping him on the periphery of the Irish squad in the event of injury as he plays a specialist position.

Quite a few players were never in the mix, but had to be involved as we need to plan for multiple injuries. The likes of Marmion, Kilcoyne, Tuohy were probably never serious candidates but could still play a role. I'm very glad Marmion was involved - 8 weeks training under JS/Kiss will have taught him a lot, he'll be in peak physical condition, and he'll be raring to go for Connacht hopefully. I would have been delighted for him if he'd made the squad, but very happy to have him on provincial duty for the next few weeks. I think he could make a big impact in a few Pro12 games...

total former

Zzippy wrote: »

The likes of Marmion, Kilcoyne, Tuohy were probably never serious candidates but could still play a role.

Tuohy was the biggest let-down for me out of all the squad. For a guy who has had decent exposure to the squad in the last two seasons and has looked like a good player, he just flopped miserably against Scotland and that seemed to be enough to make up Joe's mind, which probably tells you he wasn't killing it in training either.

pickarooney

Zzippy wrote: »

The likes of Marmion, Kilcoyne, Tuohy were probably never serious candidates

Kilcoyne was surely next in line if Healy wasn't declared fit. I wouldn't bet against him making an appearance at the World Cup yet.

With the versatility of most of our backs we look like a kind of conservative version of Australia.

errlloyd

There is really bizarre game theory in play. Trimble is so good that any slight knock to a winger and they're going home. Its an easy decision to call up Trimble - which is why I kinda think it was an easier decision to leave him at home.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

There is really bizarre game theory in play. Trimble is so good that any slight knock to a winger and they're going home. Its an easy decision to call up Trimble - which is why I kinda think it was an easier decision to leave him at home.

He's like that guy that was so good at fashion they had to shoot him.

Noopti

Just saw on Twitter that Schmidt and Strauss became Irish Citizens today!

https://twitter.com/merrionstreet/status/639094359032508416

https://twitter.com/merrionstreet/status/639096677232721920

Sangre

Quick - someone update the wikipedia page!

Hopefully this automatically disqualifies him from the NZ top job now.

mfceiling

Noopti wrote: »

Just saw on Twitter that Schmidt and Strauss became Irish Citizens today!

https://twitter.com/merrionstreet/status/639094359032508416

https://twitter.com/merrionstreet/status/639096677232721920

Strauss couldn't be happier at this news...

Plenty of administrative and time saving reasons for Joe to become an Irish citizen. But I'm going with he feels Irish and is committing his future until retirement to Ireland. Yup.

mfceiling

mfceiling wrote: »

Strauss couldn't be happier at this news...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_JMvzfIqVg

b.gud

mfceiling wrote: »

Strauss couldn't be happier at this news...

Nah he's just 100% focused on the national Anthem. He's been taking lessons from POM to make sure he gets enough pashun when singing it

bilston

Any chance that some of the 8 not involved this weekend could be sent back to their provinces? For example assuming Sexton starts and Madigan benches it would seem a sensible move to release Jackson to Ulster.

RobbieRuns

I think Ulster could do with PJ, his mate Humphs is crocked by all accounts

awec

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I think Ulster could do with PJ, his mate Humphs is crocked by all accounts

Jackson and Bowe have both been back to train with Ulster.

total former

So apparently Healy won't be risked on Saturday.

This is less than ideal, to say the least. Hopefully it means we'll see Furlong tested at loosehead at some point.

Buer

Predicted team to be full strength which means Zebo gets the nod at 11 according to media which isn't a surprise. Earls and Fitz did nothing to further their case in that position, really, so it was a straight call between Zebo and DK at this point, I think. Thought they might to with Zebo at 23 due to his versatility and impact. I assume DK will get the nod this weekend for the 23 jersey given the injuries to Earls and Fitz but that might well change in a couple of weeks owing to the increased versatility of the others.

It also means McGrath to start again at loosehead with Furlong covering him which is going to be some baptism of fire. Your first senior appearance at loosehead is at Twickenham in a test match. Luckily, a prop covering a side of the scrum they're not entirely comfortable with has never gone badly for us there before....

They'll surely need to give him a bit of a run out to manage McGrath's game time as much as anything as he'll be only one of two players (Heaslip who is made mostly from recycled space shuttle parts, I believe) who will start 3 of the warm ups.

EDIT: Of course Mike Ross also.

Healy will need to potentially start both the Romania and Canada games if he's going to be in with a shout of starting against Italy. I can see him being used as an impact sub, however, with his first start potentially coming in the QF.

molloyjh

We're going to be asking a lot of McGrath....

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

We're going to be asking a lot of McGrath....

Yup. He's going to be a tired boy but he'll also be absolutely match fit if they manage his game time. He only played 50 minutes in his first match and 60 in the second. If they match that tomorrow, I don't think it's unreasonable that he goes to England with about 160-170 minutes under his belt which is pretty solid for a prop.

They'll absolutely have to use either Furlong or Healy to start one of our pool openers though.

Pretty nervous about Furlong at LH tbh

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty nervous about Furlong at LH tbh

So is Furlong, I'd say.

Going from the dizzying heights of loosehead for Ireland Youths U18 to packing down against Dan Cole in Twickenham is a bit of a step up.

bilston

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pretty nervous about Furlong at LH tbh

Yeah the boy is a talent but to be likely starting out of position at Twickenham is a huge task.

It could also be the making of him.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Yup. He's going to be a tired boy but he'll also be absolutely match fit if they manage his game time. He only played 50 minutes in his first match and 60 in the second. If they match that tomorrow, I don't think it's unreasonable that he goes to England with about 160-170 minutes under his belt which is pretty solid for a prop.

They'll absolutely have to use either Furlong or Healy to start one of our pool openers though.

I'm not sure that will happen given the talk around Healy. I think we might be looking at McGrath starting all 4 pool games and then Healy taking over the starting berth in the knock-outs.

awec

If Healy can't play this weekend then this selection in the squad is just crazy.

Unless the plan is to replace him in the squad early if he isn't fully fixed.

phog

awec wrote: »

If Healy can't play this weekend then this selection in the squad is just crazy.

Unless the plan is to replace him in the squad early if he isn't fully fixed.

He could play against the minnows to get match fit but then might be expected to play a part in all our world cup games.

vienne86

awec wrote: »

If Healy can't play this weekend then this selection in the squad is just crazy.

Unless the plan is to replace him in the squad early if he isn't fully fixed.

I'm inclined to agree with you that it seems crazy for him to be included in the squad if he still can't play. We'll see. I hope Furlong survives Twickenham OK. Big ask.

rrpc

connachta wrote: »

consistency is measured by quality of the minutes played.

And Trimble put in a very good shift before he came off injured. You're shifting the goal posts so much, you've lost sight of where you started off. :rolleyes:

You quoted Joe Schmidt as saying that Cave's performances at training and the Millennium Stadium coupled with the fact that he's a specialist 12/13 gave him the nod and extrapolated that to the point where consistent performances in warm ups were the only reason for selection despite the fact that Cave and Trimble only played that one match and Trimble was dropped for inconsistency and Cave was selected?

connachta wrote: »

Schmidt could have taken the risk of bringing Moore if Furlong didn't played a really good 30-min shift

Moore was injured, Trimble was injured, both were not selected and yet you can't seem to find the common denominator?

aimee1

awec wrote: »

If Healy can't play this weekend then this selection in the squad is just crazy.

Unless the plan is to replace him in the squad early if he isn't fully fixed.

I dont know if it is crazy. I dont think he would be selected unless it was felt he was going to be available to play on sept 19 v canada. I reckon he will start a few of those games too to help his match fitness and bench against italy. I think we need him from the start against france.

irishbucsfan

connachta wrote: »

consistency is measured by quality of the minutes played.
Schmidt could have taken the risk of bringing Moore if Furlong didn't played a really good 30-min shift

Furlong was brought to give us cover at loosehead. Furlong didn't play loosehead in a single game but supposedly did well there in training. Meanwhile Bent played well at tighthead when given opportunities and was left behind. I think that tells you all you need to know about the importance of training.

connachta

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Furlong was brought to give us cover at loosehead. Furlong didn't play loosehead in a single game but supposedly did well there in training. Meanwhile Bent played well at tighthead when given opportunities and was left behind. I think that tells you all you need to know about the importance of training.

You don't know at all how much Furlong game as TH counted, and if it was more or less decisive than his trainning as LH potential cover

phog

aimee1 wrote: »

I dont know if it is crazy. I dont think he would be selected unless it was felt he was going to be available to play on sept 19 v canada. I reckon he will start a few of those games too to help his match fitness and bench against italy. I think we need him from the start against france.

So he plays v Canada which hardly be the full 80, he'll need time v Romania and then you'd imagine it's going to be full tilt from then until we win or are knocked out of the tournament. Can he survive that schedule with no rugby played recently - when did last play a game of rugby?

irishbucsfan

connachta wrote: »

You don't know at all how much Furlong game as TH counted, and if it was more or less decisive than his trainning as LH potential cover

He was brought as LH cover. I'd imagine the quality of his play at LH was fairly important...

connachta

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He was brought as LH cover.

Schmidt would have put him on the bench as LH and not TH against Wales if it was the priority

Noopti

Yeah, I would guess that they have had him going up against Ross in full on training at LH.

Obviously you can't replicate the nerves/atmosphere of a big match - but obviously the coaching team are confident in his technical abilities to do a job there. And I imagine that job is simply to be "steady".

I'd say Healy *could* start this weekend but first game back against the English pack might be inviting trouble.

I fully expect him to start against Canada and Romania and then bench against Italy before starting against France.

His fitness should be fine which has previously been his problem coming back from injury. How he will get his power upto scratch having had limited use of one of his arms is beyond me however.

total former

connachta wrote: »

Schmidt would have put him on the bench as LH and not TH against Wales if it was the priority

Maybe Kilcoyne was still in the mix at that point, but his performance in that match killed off his chances?

Which again emphasises the point that performances in the warm-ups and in training were key to Joe's thinking, and performances for the provinces in their pre-season games meant nothing.

irishbucsfan

connachta wrote: »

Schmidt would have put him on the bench as LH and not TH against Wales if it was the priority

You're performing mental gymnastics here to escape the reality that training is vitally important. I have no idea why.

Michael Bent has played loose head and tight head at elite levels. He played loose head in the Champions Cup last season and played tight head in these warmups.

Furlong had never played a single minute of senior rugby at loose head. Schmidt has coached him the majority of his career but never even looked at him there during a game. Yet in the biggest squad selection of his life Schmidt chose Furlong over Bent and specifically said in the press conference it has based on what he had done at loose head in training with Feek. That decision was clearly based on what happened on the training field.

pickarooney

I would prefer to have Healy play 60 minutes in Twickenham and if he's not fully recovered axe him and bring Kilcoyne.

Clearlier

pickarooney wrote: »

I would prefer to have Healy play 60 minutes in Twickenham and if he's not fully recovered axe him and bring Kilcoyne.

I wouldn't. My perception is that the gap between Healy and Kilcoyne is pretty big, I'd sooner have McGrath as the mainstay and take what Healy can offer even if it's less than what would be ideal than to dump Healy much less by putting him in a situation I didn't think that he could handle.

smiley_face

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're performing mental gymnastics here to escape the reality that training is vitally important. I have no idea why.

Michael Bent has played loose head and tight head at elite levels. He played loose head in the Champions Cup last season and played tight head in these warmups.

Furlong had never played a single minute of senior rugby at loose head. Schmidt has coached him the majority of his career but never even looked at him there during a game. Yet in the biggest squad selection of his life Schmidt chose Furlong over Bent and specifically said in the press conference it has based on what he had done at loose head in training with Feek. That decision was clearly based on what happened on the training field.

Clearly matches and training are both important to selection.
The issue was that some posters were claiming that the matches were completely irrelevant towards selection.

total former

smiley_face wrote: »

Clearly matches and training are both important to selection.
The issue was that some posters were claiming that the matches were completely irrelevant towards selection.

No, they didn't.

smiley_face

rrpc wrote: »

And Trimble put in a very good shift before he came off injured. You're shifting the goal posts so much, you've lost sight of where you started off. :rolleyes:

You quoted Joe Schmidt as saying that Cave's performances at training and the Millennium Stadium coupled with the fact that he's a specialist 12/13 gave him the nod and extrapolated that to the point where consistent performances in warm ups were the only reason for selection despite the fact that Cave and Trimble only played that one match and Trimble was dropped for inconsistency and Cave was selected?
Moore was injured, Trimble was injured, both were not selected and yet you can't seem to find the common denominator?

And Healy was injured so that upsets your common denominator.

It's not all about training only, obviously it's training and matches and past performances and attitude, all of those thing count to selection, not just training and past performances.