Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

errlloyd

We did use the warm up games better in 2011. Dropped TOL, discovered Murray, gave both of our half back combinations a chance. Which ultimately ended up being vital. It was the confidence kidney had in switching to reddan and sexton that beat Australia.

Now I'm not saying kidney was a better coach than EOS, but he used the four losses better than Eddie.

Buer

errlloyd wrote: »

We did use the warm up games better in 2011. Dropped TOL, discovered Murray, gave both of our half back combinations a chance. Which ultimately ended up being vital. It was the confidence kidney had in switching to reddan and sexton that beat Australia.

Now I'm not saying kidney was a better coach than EOS, but he used the four losses better than Eddie.

No doubt but he's still viewing things quite differently to the reality of the situation. Essentially, our warm up in 2007 was two tests and then a match against a club side in France to give the first team a practice game.

The first test against Scotland was used to look at different players. Heaslip, Duffy, Ferris, Wallace at 10, Boss, Bowe, Carney, Young...all players starting who were never going to make the team and were fighting for a spot on the plane.

The Italian match was mostly first string with several others dropped in to see how they went (Best at openside, Murphy on the wing, Trimble in centre).

Podge_irl

errlloyd wrote: »

We did use the warm up games better in 2011. Dropped TOL, discovered Murray, gave both of our half back combinations a chance. Which ultimately ended up being vital. It was the confidence kidney had in switching to reddan and sexton that beat Australia.

Now I'm not saying kidney was a better coach than EOS, but he used the four losses better than Eddie.

TOL was only dropped because he put in some of the worst performances ever seen on a rugby pitch and Kidney then panicked and brought a woefully unready Murray. There was also no need to give all the half back combos a chance because Reddan/Sexton had already amply demonstrated against England in the 6N that they were easily the best combination.

Reddan and Sexton were indeed vital to beating Australia, but it had nothing to do with Kidney's confidence in them as he had none. That's why he picked such a stupid half back pairing against Wales.

The only benefit of the warm up games was that TOL was finally dropped. We went into that world cup not in great shape. I don't think the disaster in '07 had anything to do with the warm-up games specifically anyway. In the grand scheme of things they really don't mean that much one way or another.

I don't know what Thornley spent his time doing during that world cup, but his recollection of it is ropey.

rrpc

Podge_irl wrote: »

TOL was only dropped because he put in some of the worst performances ever seen on a rugby pitch and Kidney then panicked and brought a woefully unready Murray. There was also no need to give all the half back combos a chance because Reddan/Sexton had already amply demonstrated against England in the 6N that they were easily the best combination.

Reddan and Sexton were indeed vital to beating Australia, but it had nothing to do with Kidney's confidence in them as he had none. That's why he picked such a stupid half back pairing against Wales.

The half-back pairing was one part of the problem. Our defensive depth left the Welsh acres of space to run at us and we allowed them do it all day long. In attack we were just as deep and ran into a brick wall.

It was the exact opposite of the Australia match where we pressured them in defence and attack and used the choke tackle to perfection.

The real scandal was that Kidney couldn't seem to see this. It was as if he didn't know how we'd beaten Australia. There was also the ROG 'toys out of the pram' interview that may have influenced Kidney in selecting him for the Welsh match.

jacothelad

redmca2 wrote: »

Everything points to the fact that Henderson is where SOB was with Kidney before he broke into the first XV. On current form he will replace either Toner or POM.

Regarding Trimble, I definitely heard on some radio station a couple of weeks ago that he has a problem with games on Sundays a la Ewen Murray in Scotland ...... 3 of our pool matches are on Sundays, so that could explain a lot.

He doesn't. Man takes radio station crap as gospel shocker. Perhaps the radio station should have asked him before giving out incorrect info. As he said a few years ago on the matter, "It's my job. I do it when I need to do it."

smiley_face

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Apparently Rob Kearney won't be back in full training until the second half of this week. Something wrong with his knee and he's on a reduced training schedule.

Slightly worrying considering we seem to be working with Zebo as second choice FB.

Just for the craic who would you call up if Rob K had to withdraw completely? Felix Jones as a specialist FB? Or move Payne back there given it's his natural position? Or rely on Jack of all trades, Ian Madigan?

I would regret Rob leaving the camp obviously, but if he had to go, then I would call up Felix Jones.
If it were within a 48 hour window of a match (therefore not allowed call up a replacement), then I would put Zebo at fullback and Fitzgerald on the wing with Dave Kearney right wing, and Earls or else Bowe on the bench as 23.
Other than that, last choice would be putting Robbie Henshaw at fullback leaving a Cave and Payne partnership in the centres (that Ulster pairing would be good IMO), with Zebo and Dave Kearney on the wings with Earls or Bowe on the bench as 23.
I wouldn't move Payne unless I absolutely had to, as I see him as our most pivotal player from 11 to 15; his presence in the 13 shirt gives us much needed stability and confidence.

jamesol

Anyone have any information or a link on the Ireland open training session in the RDS? Can't seem to find any information on the website.

mfceiling

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Trimbers was not a bad centre at all actually but was never going to get a sustained run there between injuries and the presence for so long of The Almighty and his side kick John the Baptist beside him.
Trimble can pass well, and has a good awareness of the play around him. Far better on both points than Earlsie for example.
I am surprised it hasnt been tried more.

Payne is a very solid full back, and offers a much better attacking option there than Rob, both counterattacking or as a link man who can straighten the line and pass it on.
Certainly offers a different flavour, certainly more interesting than Jones, but probably not one Joe has any interest in.

Bit concerned about Rob's fitness, and nervous about the idea of Zeebs starting a major game at 15, but that does seem to be the plan if necessary. I would prefer to see Paynser there if it had to happen.

Trimble isn't a great passer tbh. He definitely hasn't the hands for a centre.

total former

Buer wrote: »

Except we struggled against the USA only crossing the whitewash in the second half, failing to secure a BP and turned it around against Australia in the next game before playing Russia....

He also conveniently forgets that we really struggled to hit any sort of stride against Italy, when he says this:

Ireland found some rhythm against the USA and Russia, before beating Australia and thrashing Italy.

Were we level at half-time with Italy, before they collapsed in the second half? EDIT: nope, it was 9-6 at half-time. Not the stuff of thrashings.

Coming off the intensity of the Australia game, struggling to put Italy away should have had alarm bells ringing in Kidney's head. Apparently not the case.

Kidney really did lose it completely during that tournament. It's bizarre that Gerry is still standing by his man.

Buer

mfceiling wrote: »

Trimble isn't a great passer tbh. He definitely hasn't the hands for a centre.

Very true. Ulster gave him a sustained run in the centre (he didn't play on the wing for Ulster until his second season) and it didn't go great. You know when Mark McCall reckons you need to be more skilled to play 12 or 13, you're in trouble.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jamesol wrote: »

Anyone have any information or a link on the Ireland open training session in the RDS? Can't seem to find any information on the website.

Leinster are tweeting about it at the moment. Periscoping is too. What ever that means....

jacothelad

Buer wrote: »

Very true. Ulster gave him a sustained run in the centre (he didn't play on the wing for Ulster until his second season) and it didn't go great. You know when Mark McCall reckons you need to be more skilled to play 12 or 13, you're in trouble.

Mark McCall himself was one of the most skillful centres you'll ever see. I suspect if he had them at Sarries, he'd use them.

rrpc

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Leinster are tweeting about it at the moment. Periscoping is too. What ever that means....

A kind of video Snapchat I believe.

CIARAN_BOYLE

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Leinster are tweeting about it at the moment. Periscoping is too. What ever that means....

sending out a video

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

rrpc wrote: »

A kind of video Snapchat I believe.

I understand it even less now.

b.gud

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Leinster are tweeting about it at the moment. Periscoping is too. What ever that means....

It's a live video feed sourced from a mobile device. Anyone can do it, all you need is the app on your phone and a decent internet connection

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

b.gud wrote: »

It's a live video feed sourced from a mobile device. Anyone can do it, all you need is the app on your phone and a decent internet connection

Live streaming, basically.

b.gud

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Live streaming, basically.

Yup

LorMal

Buer wrote: »

Thornley's gripe with EOS continues to run deep in his article today comparing the warm ups in 2007 to those of 2011. We lost all of our games in 2011 but GT seems to be pretty content with the preparation compared to 2007 when he is in his usual sneering tone towards EOS.


He really set out to destroy Eddie O Sullivan. And he is relentless. I think he was an important factor in Eddie not being able to find a coaching role in Ireland for so long. Nasty.
For a while I thought he was doing the same to Madigan - never missing an opportunity to highlight an error or to heap praise on Jackson / Keatley. However, lately he seems to have mellowed on that.
When he gets fixated on an idea he repeats it ad nauseum. He is totally in love with Conor Murray - he almost drools every time he talks about him. (Seems to have fallen out of love with Sexton for the moment)

I think Gerry's like or dislike for a given coach or player is directly proportional to the amount of access he has.

Hence for example he refused to call for Kidney to go at any point.

LorMal

Tara Small Yawn wrote: »

I think Gerry's like or dislike for a given coach or player is directly proportional to the amount of access he has.

Hence for example he refused to call for Kidney to go at any point.

Yes, I agree. He does get incredible access. I suspect he must offer positive spin in return.

awec

Mod - moved a few posts to the Off Topic thread. Let's keep this one to rugby.

Sangre

LorMal wrote: »

Buer wrote: »

Thornley's gripe with EOS continues to run deep in his article today comparing the warm ups in 2007 to those of 2011. We lost all of our games in 2011 but GT seems to be pretty content with the preparation compared to 2007 when he is in his usual sneering tone towards EOS.


He really set out to destroy Eddie O Sullivan. And he is relentless. I think he was an important factor in Eddie not being able to find a coaching role in Ireland for so long. Nasty.
For a while I thought he was doing the same to Madigan - never missing an opportunity to highlight an error or to heap praise on Jackson / Keatley. However, lately he seems to have mellowed on that.
When he gets fixated on an idea he repeats it ad nauseum. He is totally in love with Conor Murray - he almost drools every time he talks about him. (Seems to have fallen out of love with Sexton for the moment)

I find him impossible to read. He seems to use every piece he writes to mention his agenda of the week. There was a six month period where he couldn't avoid mentioning Sexton being overplayed in France.

b.gud

Before the first warm up match Gerry predicted a Wales win. Then afterwards I heard him in a couple of podcasts go to great lengths to tell the story that when he thought about it on the day of the match he realised he had made the wrong call and he went on to his Paddy Power account to rectify his mistake. To me it just reeked of an inability to admit you got it wrong

LorMal

Sangre wrote: »

I find him impossible to read. He seems to use every piece he writes to mention his agenda of the week. There was a six month period where he couldn't avoid mentioning Sexton being overplayed in France.

Its a pity. He is a very good writer and is widely read. He has a lot of influence as a result. He repeats his 'agendas of the week' so often that they become presumed truth and you hear them repeated as gospel elsewhere.

As for his little turns of phrase - 'coaching ticket' (wtf?)

Trabejo

rrpc wrote: »

The half-back pairing was one part of the problem. Our defensive depth left the Welsh acres of space to run at us and we allowed them do it all day long. In attack we were just as deep and ran into a brick wall.

It was the exact opposite of the Australia match where we pressured them in defence and attack and used the choke tackle to perfection.

The real scandal was that Kidney couldn't seem to see this. It was as if he didn't know how we'd beaten Australia. There was also the ROG 'toys out of the pram' interview that may have influenced Kidney in selecting him for the Welsh match.

I think it was the ROG interview that swung it for him. Kidney let his emotions cloud his judgement he was too heavily influenced by the players he knew best.

There was a time that O'Callaghan was starting for Ireland under Kidney when he wasn't even starting for Munster!

Podge_irl

Trabejo wrote: »

There was a time that O'Callaghan was starting for Ireland under Kidney when he wasn't even starting for Munster!

Not in and of itself a problem. Ross started the 6N when he wasn't even in matchday squads for Leinster at the time.

LuckyLloyd

I think the last WC was a case of us being very well peaked and the Wales game was really one of those days, ala Wales this year / England last year in the Six Nations. We looked so solid and in control against Australia and Italy, and people seem to forget that we conceded 10 points to Wales in the first half of the QF off their two isolated attacking phases in our half as we dominated. We panicked and went for the line from too early on also.

I remain to be convinced that we have any better shot of a semi and beyond this time round, though - like Kidney - Schmidt could have his prep spot on. We'll know in a month's time.

CatFromHue

I think the players took their eye off the ball abit against Wales in the last RWC.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think the players took their eye off the ball abit against Wales in the last RWC.

For a lot of them it was one of the biggest game of their lives. I really don't think they took their eye off the ball. We were outcoached and outplayed.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

For a lot of them it was one of the biggest game of their lives. I really don't think they took their eye off the ball. We were outcoached and outplayed.

I think one or two players have subsequently come out and said that they were over confident going into that game. That's not to say we weren't outcoached or outplayed either.

irishbucsfan

Well now I have an overwhelming urge to watch Ireland/Wales 2011 tonight...

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well now I have an overwhelming urge to watch Ireland/Wales 2011 tonight...

Don't put yourself through it!

I think I remember hearing Rory Best say something along the lines of the players were convinced they were going to beat Wales. Whether that means they were over confident or just full of belief is open to debate I suppose.

gamma001

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/looks-like-cian-healy-could-play-before-the-world-cup-after-all/307968 possibility of healy playing this weekend for leinster

molloyjh

gamma001 wrote: »

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/looks-like-cian-healy-could-play-before-the-world-cup-after-all/307968 possibility of healy playing this weekend for leinster

I highly doubt it tbh. He'd need to be training with Leinster this week and he was with Ireland today so that wouldn't give him enough time to get up to speed. From what I can tell of the articles on this it seems someone asked Leo if it would be possible and Leo said he'd be open to it but nothing has been mentioned as of yet.

molloyjh

Was at the training session in the RDS earlier. A couple of things people might be interested in:

1. Murray and Rob Kearney were doing their own fitness drills separate to the rest of the squad. Both seemed fine while doing them so hopefully they'll be in good shape in 11 days.
2. Healy took full part in the session, although he did look a little behind in the fitness stakes. To be expected really.
3. Henderson and Dave Kearney both looked really sharp, but I was also impressed with Payne. He was out warming up a good 10 minutes or more ahead of the rest of the squad and seemed really switched on.
4. Fitz mixed the good with the bad during the session whereas Earls looked solid throughout. Would have him ahead of Fitz to start at 11 on that basis. Mads was a bit off from the tee too strangely.
5. There was still a little bit of sloppiness at times but the pace that some of the passing drills were done at meant it would have been hard not to fumble a bit. Joe knows how to work them that's for sure.
6. As you can see from the video below Mike Ross' young lad got some practice in at the end with Sexton, Mads and Jackson. Do we have a future 10 in the making here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S51NF_oJ0eg

The Elk

molloyjh wrote: »

I highly doubt it tbh. He'd need to be training with Leinster this week and he was with Ireland today so that wouldn't give him enough time to get up to speed. From what I can tell of the articles on this it seems someone asked Leo if it would be possible and Leo said he'd be open to it but nothing has been mentioned as of yet.

They trained at the RDS today as you said, after which they are going back to their clubs to train for the rest of the week and have the weekend off apparently.

mystic86

molloyjh wrote: »

Was at the training session in the RDS earlier. A couple of things people might be interested in:

1. Murray and Rob Kearney were doing their own fitness drills separate to the rest of the squad. Both seemed fine while doing them so hopefully they'll be in good shape in 11 days.
2. Healy took full part in the session, although he did look a little behind in the fitness stakes. To be expected really.
3. Henderson and Dave Kearney both looked really sharp, but I was also impressed with Payne. He was out warming up a good 10 minutes or more ahead of the rest of the squad and seemed really switched on.
4. Fitz mixed the good with the bad during the session whereas Earls looked solid throughout. Would have him ahead of Fitz to start at 11 on that basis. Mads was a bit off from the tee too strangely.
5. There was still a little bit of sloppiness at times but the pace that some of the passing drills were done at meant it would have been hard not to fumble a bit. Joe knows how to work them that's for sure.
6. As you can see from the video below Mike Ross' young lad got some practice in at the end with Sexton, Mads and Jackson. Do we have a future 10 in the making here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S51NF_oJ0eg

was at that myself, have a few snaps if ye want to see them?

mystic86

mystic86 wrote: »

was at that myself, have a few snaps if ye want to see them?

I certainly wouldn't mind if you can throw them up there.

Trabejo

bilston wrote: »

I think one or two players have subsequently come out and said that they were over confident going into that game. That's not to say we weren't outcoached or outplayed either.

I think one particular player who had voiced his utter disgust that another player had started ahead of him in the game previous, was surely one of them.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

molloyjh wrote: »

Was at the training session in the RDS earlier. A couple of things people might be interested in:

Murray and Rob Kearney were doing their own fitness drills separate to the rest of the squad. Both seemed fine while doing them so hopefully they'll be in good shape in 11 days.

I saw something yesterday about Kearney having some sort of bruising on his knee and that he wouldn't be doing full training until the end of the week. Assume Murray's is part of the return to play protocols.

molloyjh

Prob should have mentioned as well that during kicking practice today Murray nailed a 60m kick. None of the others even attempted anything of that range.

Stheno

molloyjh wrote: »

Prob should have mentioned as well that during kicking practice today Murray nailed a 60m kick. None of the others even attempted anything of that range.

That's close to the halfway line?

He nailed a big one at the weekend too iirc?

Tompatrick

Was madigan tried out at 9 for any drills?

The Rape of Lucretia

molloyjh wrote: »

Prob should have mentioned as well that during kicking practice today Murray nailed a 60m kick. None of the others even attempted anything of that range.

Looks safe now that Madigan has probably jumped Murray and will start at 9, but Murray being encouraged to work on his kicking in case Madser gets injured and has to come on and kick.

The Rape of Lucretia

Tompatrick wrote: »

Was madigan tried out at 9 for any drills?

He is a natural there apparently after some pass he threw two years ago after finding himself accidentally at the base of the ruck with Reddan buried in it. So doesnt need it.
Joe feels Murray needs the practice more.

total former

Tompatrick wrote: »

Was madigan tried out at 9 for any drills?

No.



Curveball. Tearing it up in training etc.

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

Prob should have mentioned as well that during kicking practice today Murray nailed a 60m kick. None of the others even attempted anything of that range.

Was Murray practising his goal kicking properly or was he just mucking around?

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

Was Murray practising his goal kicking properly or was he just mucking around?

He joined tyhe lads for a few minutes but not for long.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

molloyjh wrote: »

He joined tyhe lads for a few minutes but not for long.

No harm. Someone pointed out a while ago that we're fairly poor for goal kicking options outside Sexton/Madiagn/Jackson.