Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

jm08

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Well there's not much else to discuss :rolleyes:

I was referring to a scenario where Fitz had the left wing spot, keeping in mind POC will technically be with Toulon. Which wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility by any means, particularly if POM was to pick up an injury during the early games/warmups. In that case, Murray would be the only Munster player. Not a slight on Munster and no reflection on Schmidt either. Just an observation.

Was POC with Toulon last week when all the players were sent back to their Provinces?

Anyone can pick up an injury at any stage - even without injury, Donnacha Ryan could well be a starting lock.

I wouldn't write off Zebo either!:rolleyes:

RoundBox11

jm08 wrote: »

Was POC with Toulon last week when all the players were sent back to their Provinces?

Anyone can pick up an injury at any stage - even without injury, Donnacha Ryan could well be a starting lock.

I wouldn't write off Zebo either!:rolleyes:

Yeah well like it or not POC's not going to be playing for Munster again and the next season will have started during the WC so he'll be a Toulon man.
If Ryan is starting we'll be very stuck as Toner, Hendo and most likely Tuohy would need to go before Ryan would be starting...

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

Anyone can pick up an injury at any stage - even without injury, Donnacha Ryan could well be a starting lock.

It's not happening jm, at the very best he's behind Toner and I'd be amazed if he even gets ahead of Henderson

jm08

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Yeah well like it or not POC's not going to be playing for Munster again and the next season will have started during the WC so he'll be a Toulon man.
If Ryan is starting we'll be very stuck as Toner, Hendo and most likely Tuohy would need to go before Ryan would be starting...

POC is contracted to the IRFU/Munster until after the world cup. Unlike all Toulon's signings, there hasn't been a Toulon photo op introduction yet!

How do you make out that Tuohy (injured a lot this year) with his 10 caps internationally compared to Donnacha Ryan who has 28 caps is ahead of Ryan?. Toner has less caps than he has (25).

As for Hendo - one start as a lock suggests that he is seen as a blindside/backup option.

total former

On a more harmonious note, if Henshaw starts, it will be the first time since 1999 that a World Cup XV has featured players from all four provinces.

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

POC is contracted to the IRFU/Munster until after the world cup. Unlike all Toulon's signings, there hasn't been a Toulon photo op introduction yet!

How do you make out that Tuohy (injured a lot this year) with his 10 caps internationally compared to Donnacha Ryan who has 28 caps is ahead of Ryan?. Toner has less caps than he has (25).

As for Hendo - one start as a lock suggests that he is seen as a blindside/backup option.

How is Donnacha Ryan (injured alot for 2 years) ahead of Tuohy? Ryan has to prove he's up to international standard rugby after so much time out. His last cap was the 6 Nations defeat to Italy in 2013. We've won 2 6 Nations titles since then. Tuohy has the advantage of having spent more time under Schmidt too. I'd like to see him return to his form of 2/3 years ago but it's a big ask after so much time out.

RoundBox11

jm08 wrote: »

POC is contracted to the IRFU/Munster until after the world cup. Unlike all Toulon's signings, there hasn't been a Toulon photo op introduction yet!

How do you make out that Tuohy (injured a lot this year) with his 10 caps internationally compared to Donnacha Ryan who has 28 caps is ahead of Ryan?. Toner has less caps than he has (25).

As for Hendo - one start as a lock suggests that he is seen as a blindside/backup option.

Ok fair enough about the IRFU contract so, but i think you get what I mean in relation to who will be in Limerick next season.

Well when was the last time Ryan was capped? DOC has more caps than all three combined, is he more likely than Tuohy too so? Caps from years back mean little. Tuohy has been involved in several Schmidt squads, which counts for a lot.
As for Hendo, I think that one start suggests that Toner and POC have had good years injury wise. He's obviously being lined up as POC's replacement. Otherwise he'd be used as back row reserve. How often do young Irish second rows come along like Henderson? Whereas there's always a healthy supply of top notch blindsides, and it's only a matter of time before another good 6 appears in Ulster.

clsmooth

jm08 wrote: »

As for Hendo - one start as a lock suggests that he is seen as a blindside/backup option.

The problem with Henderson is he brings so much impact and intensity off the bench. I think this hurts his chances of starting from the off. If rugby wasnt a 23 man game these days, he'd be starting ahead of POM IMO. But its only a matter of time before he takes the number 6 shirt off POM unless he's being primed for the second row.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

POC is contracted to Munster until after the world cup

thomond2006

Sure Brown Thomas has already said goodbye to POC. There's no way you can still call him a Munster player.

total former

It's the stupidest argument in quite a while, but I'm pretty sure players have to be registered before the start of the Top 14 season, so by the time the RWC starts, POC will be a Toulon player.

jm08

clsmooth wrote: »

How is Donnacha Ryan (injured alot for 2 years) ahead of Tuohy? Ryan has to prove he's up to international standard rugby after so much time out. His last cap was the 6 Nations defeat to Italy in 2013. We've won 2 6 Nations titles since then. Tuohy has the advantage of having spent more time under Schmidt too. I'd like to see him return to his form of 2/3 years ago but it's a big ask after so much time out.

Exactly the same things were said about POC when he was out for so long. I haven't seen anything in his 7 games for Munster that would suggest that there is any reason that Ryan won't get back to his international pre injury form.

I'd say Ryan's partnership with POC is just as important as any knowledge of having spent time with Schmidt who after all is the back's coach!.

jm08

clsmooth wrote: »

The problem with Henderson is he brings so much impact and intensity off the bench. I think this hurts his chances of starting from the off. If rugby wasnt a 23 man game these days, he'd be starting ahead of POM IMO. But its only a matter of time before he takes the number 6 shirt off POM unless he's being primed for the second row.

The issue of Henderson being an international lock is that he rarely plays as a lock for his province.

jm08

total former wrote: »

It's the stupidest argument in quite a while, but I'm pretty sure players have to be registered before the start of the Top 14 season, so by the time the RWC starts, POC will be a Toulon player.

Seem to recall Sexton was a Leinster player on the last Lions tour.

I'm also pretty sure that Doug Howlett was not referred to as a Munster player at the 2007 world cup even though he was joining Munster after the world cup.

The Lost Sheep

jm08 wrote: »

Exactly the same things were said about POC when he was out for so long. I haven't seen anything in his 7 games for Munster that would suggest that there is any reason that Ryan won't get back to his international pre injury form.

I'd say Ryan's partnership with POC is just as important as any knowledge of having spent time with Schmidt who after all the back's coach!.

Im a huge DR fan but JM even you have to admit there is a very considerable difference between POC returning to a team and Donncha Ryan returning to squad. Donncha's form was fairly good in the small number of games he played but that was well off what other players have produced in the season just gone and Schmidt is more than simply a backs coach and its been talked countless times of importance of being within the overall squad to be in the wrt Schmidt and what he wants from the squad. Donncha has none of that due to his injurys. His partnership with POC is a while ago now and in very different circumstances to now

Podge_irl

Donnacha Ryan is going to be nowhere near the Ireland 23 come the world cup. I'll be surprised if he travels at all.

irishbucsfan

I personally wouldn't be surprised at all if Ryan is in the 23. He's a great player at his best. The only question is whether he can reach that level between now and the competition, and only himself and the coaches will really know that at this point.

total former

jm08 wrote: »

Seem to recall Sexton was a Leinster player on the last Lions tour.

Yes, that's correct.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I personally wouldn't be surprised at all if Ryan is in the 23. He's a great player at his best. The only question is whether he can reach that level between now and the competition, and only himself and the coaches will really know that at this point.

Well I have a hard time seeing him getting ahead of Toner at this juncture and Henderson is a more useful bench player.

Not beyond the bounds of possibility obviously but I have a hard time seeing it.

jm08

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Im a huge DR fan but JM even you have to admit there is a very considerable difference between POC returning to a team and Donncha Ryan returning to squad. Donncha's form was fairly good in the small number of games he played but that was well off what other players have produced in the season just gone and Schmidt is more than simply a backs coach and its been talked countless times of importance of being within the overall squad to be in the wrt Schmidt and what he wants from the squad. Donncha has none of that due to his injurys. His partnership with POC is a while ago now and in very different circumstances to now

Before POC came back, most people thought POC would not be as good as he was pre injury. Ryan is being similarly written off. In the last Ulster v Munster game in Ravenhill where Ryan partnered POC, Ulster's lineout was under a lot of pressure from Munster's (Ulster lost a couple of their own throws). Similarly against the Ospreys, Ryan & POC went well.

Not sure what you mean about POC's partnership with Ryan being a while ago - he played with him a couple of times at the end of the season. Ryan has played a fair bit with Toner as well prior to his injury.

Ryan is in Schmidt's squad, so he has every chance of understanding what Schmidt wants from him. Plenty of players have made a Schmidt team with little time in any squad with him before being selected (Best, POC, POM, Murray, Bowe) and which seems to be the main argument as to why Ryan won't make the world cup squad.

total former

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well I have a hard time seeing him getting ahead of Toner at this juncture and Henderson is a more useful bench player.

Not beyond the bounds of possibility obviously but I have a hard time seeing it.

Yeah, Ryan is in a scrap with Tuohy for the fourth spot, there's no chance of either of them displacing POC and Toner from the starting XV and slim enough chance of dislodging Henderson from the bench.

(Just to clarify; I'm talking about the XV for the games vs Italy and France)

thomond2006

Ryan or Tuohy is a non-story as long as POC, Toner and Henderson remain fit.

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ryan or Tuohy is a non-story as long as POC, Toner and Henderson remain fit.

And if either Toner or POC get injured, that would leave one lock in the squad who can run a lineout. Not so easy to parachute someone in either of all positions, that is one position that would require the replacement to be training with the squad.

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

And if either Toner or POC get injured, that would leave one lock in the squad who can run a lineout. Not so easy to parachute someone in either of all positions, that is one position that would require the replacement to be training with the squad.

Which is why I said it's a non-story otherwise. There will be contingencies in place should the worst happen. Otherwise who cares / is it a big deal? I think the ability to call lineouts is being vastly overrated. As long as everybody knows their assignments I don't think the 'caller' is a major issue.*

*I'm interested to read responses from those who have played in the pack on this.

Hopefully Ryan makes it, so we can avoid the tidal wave of internet outrage that will wash over this forum if nothing else.

thomond2006

Tara Small Yawn wrote: »

Hopefully Ryan makes it, so we can avoid the tidal wave of internet outrage that will wash over this forum if nothing else.

At best he is would start against the minnows. Of course it's a big deal for the player to feature in the World Cup in the first place as a personal achievement, but in the bigger picture it is far from a major talking point. Ryan and Tuohy are both very good locks so I'm not pushed either way. It's the first choice 15/23 that really matters and should be up for extensive debate!

Tox56

thomond2006 wrote: »

At best he is would start against the minnows. Of course it's a big deal for the player to feature in the World Cup in the first place as a personal achievement, but in the bigger picture it is far from a major talking point. Ryan and Tuohy are both very good locks so I'm not pushed either way. It's the first choice 15/23 that really matters and should be up for extensive debate!

There really isn't that much debate over the 23 though. All fit we maybe have an argument over who the bench backrower is, and who the 11 and 23 are, that's about it.

JPNelsforearm

Tox56 wrote: »

There really isn't that much debate over the 23 though. All fit we maybe have an argument over who the bench backrower is, and who the 11 and 23 are, that's about it.

Surely POM?

JPNelsforearm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Surely POM?

POM starts, Henry is backrow bench option

Podge_irl

I wouldn't completely write off Murphy, but that's certainly the most likely scenario.

total former

Deleted User wrote: »

POM starts, Henry is backrow bench option

Yeah, this could be interesting. Henry is probably the better player and certainly the more proven player, but Murphy did very well in the 6N and Joe is always slow to change a winning team.

I think this is one of the few calls that might actually be affected by performances in the warm-up games.

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

And if either Toner or POC get injured, that would leave one lock in the squad who can run a lineout. Not so easy to parachute someone in either of all positions, that is one position that would require the replacement to be training with the squad.

When poc missed the Scotland game in 2014 toner ran the lineout. Donncha Ryan isnt the only other lock on the island who can call a lineout, im sure tuohy or henderson could and it doesnt have to be a lock who makes the calls either surely.

stephen_n

I reckon it's a bit like the Madigan/Jackson thing, Henry would start ahead of Jordi but Jordi will bench ahead of Henry. As an out and out 7 Henry is miles ahead but Jordi provides better versatility.

JPNelsforearm

Deleted User wrote: »

POM starts, Henry is backrow bench option

Hendo is the biggest, fastest, strongest, hardest hitting and carrying six in Ireland at the minute, you'd start POM over him?

total former

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Hendo is the biggest, fastest, strongest, hardest hitting and carrying six in Ireland at the minute, you'd start POM over him?

Joe Schmidt will.

Podge_irl

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Hendo is the biggest, fastest, strongest, hardest hitting and carrying six in Ireland at the minute, you'd start POM over him?

Yes. And more importantly all evidence points to that fact that so would Schmidt.

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

When poc missed the Scotland game in 2014 toner ran the lineout. Donncha Ryan isnt the only other lock on the island who can call a lineout, im sure tuohy or henderson could and it doesnt have to be a lock who makes the calls either surely.

A good example to use as to what happened there. Toner & Tuohy (both able to call lineout) started the game with Henderson on bench who was subbed on for Toner for the last 10 mins or so.

The following week v Wales, POC was back, Tuohy dropped to the bench and Henderson dropped out of 23.

The locks who have experience of running the lineout are POC, Toner, Ryan & Tuohy and I'd expect 3 of those 4 to go to the world cup. Henderson will more than likely travel as a forward utility player.

justsomebloke

stephen_n wrote: »

I reckon it's a bit like the Madigan/Jackson thing, Henry would start ahead of Jordi but Jordi will bench ahead of Henry. As an out and out 7 Henry is miles ahead but Jordi provides better versatility.

but Henderson on the bench as a second row will give you a good bit of options for the backrow if needed.

RoundBox11

jm08 wrote: »

A good example to use as to what happened there. Toner & Tuohy (both able to call lineout) started the game with Henderson on bench who was subbed on for Toner for the last 10 mins or so.

The following week v Wales, POC was back, Tuohy dropped to the bench and Henderson dropped out of 23.

The locks who have experience of running the lineout are POC, Toner, Ryan & Tuohy and I'd expect 3 of those 4 to go to the world cup. Henderson will more than likely travel as a forward utility player.

So you're now saying Tuohy has experience of running the lineout too? Doesn't that undermine your own argument?

When Donnacha Ryan was in charge of the Irish lineout it didn't even go well. I seem to remember it being a weak point that year. Not to mention the vast majority of his calls were too himself.

stephen_n

justsomebloke wrote: »

but Henderson on the bench as a second row will give you a good bit of options for the backrow if needed.

Yes but since he's already covering 6 and 4/5, your other sub requires cover for 6/7/8 particularly given the substitution patterns we saw in the 6N. It's a toss up but I'd see Jordi as more versatile and think Joe would too.

smiley_face

Tox56 wrote: »

There really isn't that much debate over the 23 though. All fit we maybe have an argument over who the bench backrower is, and who the 11 and 23 are, that's about it.

I would guess that barring injury, the exact same 23 that faced Scotland should be the 23 for Italy and France, with possibly a toss-up between Fitzgerald and Zebo for 11.

Most of the other players are fighting for a spot in the 31, while I think some are just reserves in case of injury.
This could be quite interesting, and this is how I see it as it stands:

Props: Bent as only backup prop outside the 23 (as covers both sides), but if any prop gets injured then Kilcoyne for LH, and Furlong for TH get called into the squad. Also interesting if Bent gets injured who would get called up. Probably Ah You, maybe Nathan White or possibly Tom Court?

Hooker: Strauss, with Herring reserve.

Locks: 1 of Tuohy or Ryan

Back Row: 1 of Henry or O'Donnell, with Conan reserve

Scrumhalf: 1 of Boss or Marmion

Outhalf: Jackson (Madigan as bench cover)

Backs: any 2 combo out of
D'Arcy/Cave (IC & OC)
Earls/McFadden (Centre & Right Wing)
Fitzgerald/Zebo (Centre & Left Wing)
Gilroy/Trimble/D. Kearney (Either Wing)
with Reid reserve

The warm-up games will be vital for the players to shine.

So, what would you do if Bent got injured, and who would you pick between Ryan or Tuohy, Henry or O'Donnell, Boss or Marmion, and what is the best combo for the backs?

Or would someone like to offer a different way of analysing the squad, for example taking an extra prop and cutting one of the backs?

Tox56

smiley_face wrote: »

I would guess that barring injury, the exact same 23 that faced Scotland should be the 23 for Italy and France, with possibly a toss-up between Fitzgerald and Zebo for 11.

Most of the other players are fighting for a spot in the 31, while I think some are just reserves in case of injury.
This could be quite interesting, and this is how I see it as it stands:

Props: Bent as only backup prop outside the 23 (as covers both sides), but if any prop gets injured then Kilcoyne for LH, and Furlong for TH get called into the squad. Also interesting if Bent gets injured who would get called up. Probably Ah You, maybe Nathan White or possibly Tom Court?

Hooker: Strauss, with Herring reserve.

Locks: 1 of Tuohy or Ryan

Back Row: 1 of Henry or O'Donnell, with Conan reserve

Scrumhalf: 1 of Boss or Marmion

Outhalf: Jackson (Madigan as bench cover)

Backs: any 2 combo out of
D'Arcy/Cave (IC & OC)
Earls/McFadden (Centre & Right Wing)
Fitzgerald/Zebo (Centre & Left Wing)
Gilroy/Trimble/D. Kearney (Either Wing)
with Reid reserve

The warm-up games will be vital for the players to shine.

So, what would you do if Bent got injured, and who would you pick between Ryan or Tuohy, Henry or O'Donnell, Boss or Marmion, and what is the best combo for the backs?

Or would someone like to offer a different way of analysing the squad, for example taking an extra prop and cutting one of the backs?

Henry will go ahead of O'Donnell without question in my mind, don't think that's a real question mark.

I think you're forgetting Jones in your back 3 list, right or wrong he's probably going

smiley_face

Tox56 wrote: »

Henry will go ahead of O'Donnell without question in my mind, don't think that's a real question mark.

I think you're forgetting Jones in your back 3 list, right or wrong he's probably going

Jones is included already in the 23 that played Scotland, assuming he will be there again. He's the only other player playing at fullback regularly for a province besides Kearney so I think he has to go at least.

Tox56

smiley_face wrote: »

Jones is included already in the 23 that played Scotland, assuming he will be there again. He's the only other player playing at fullback regularly for a province besides Kearney so I think he has to go at least.

Fitzgerald played against Scotland and is in your list though?

smiley_face

Tox56 wrote: »

Fitzgerald played against Scotland and is in your list though?

I think it's a toss-up between Fitz and Zebo for 11.

jm08

RoundBox11 wrote: »

So you're now saying Tuohy has experience of running the lineout too? Doesn't that undermine your own argument?

When Donnacha Ryan was in charge of the Irish lineout it didn't even go well. I seem to remember it being a weak point that year. Not to mention the vast majority of his calls were too himself.

The discussion was to do with whether Henderson would be one of only 3 locks to travel. I think either Ryan or Tuohy will be one of 3 rocks to travel. The point was made by Podge (I think) that Tuohy had performed better than Ryan which I dispute as in the Ulster v Munster, Ulster were 75% on their own throw and Munster (100%) had a couple of steals (3). Ryan took 5 of the lineout calls.

He ran the lineout for 2 seasons while POC was out (carrying a shoulder injury for the 2nd year). Unfortunately for him, his partner for a lot of those games was McCarthy who is vertically challenged at 6ft4 as an international lock (though in saying that, a quick glance at his last international game against Italy, the calls were made to 5 different players).

Against France, he did call 8 (50%) on himself with a 94% success rate for the draw in Paris.

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

The discussion was to do with whether Henderson would be one of only 3 locks to travel. I think either Ryan or Tuohy will be one of 3 rocks to travel. The point was made by Podge (I think) that Tuohy had performed better than Ryan which I dispute as in the Ulster v Munster, Ulster were 75% on their own throw and Munster (100%) had a couple of steals (3). Ryan took 5 of the lineout calls.

He ran the lineout for 2 seasons while POC was out (carrying a shoulder injury for the 2nd year). Unfortunately for him, his partner for a lot of those games was McCarthy who is vertically challenged at 6ft4 as an international lock (though in saying that, a quick glance at his last international game against Italy, the calls were made to 5 different players).

Against France, he did call 8 (50%) on himself with a 94% success rate for the draw in Paris.

:pac:

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

The discussion was to do with whether Henderson would be one of only 3 locks to travel. I think either Ryan or Tuohy will be one of 3 rocks to travel. The point was made by Podge (I think) that Tuohy had performed better than Ryan which I dispute as in the Ulster v Munster, Ulster were 75% on their own throw and Munster (100%) had a couple of steals (3). Ryan took 5 of the lineout calls.

He ran the lineout for 2 seasons while POC was out (carrying a shoulder injury for the 2nd year). Unfortunately for him, his partner for a lot of those games was McCarthy who is vertically challenged at 6ft4 as an international lock (though in saying that, a quick glance at his last international game against Italy, the calls were made to 5 different players).

Against France, he did call 8 (50%) on himself with a 94% success rate for the draw in Paris.

im sure you can also find games were tuohy performed to higher percentage then any other lock in the country. You also seem to forget the lost ball could be down to crap throws from the hooker.

Its a pointless discussion to use lineout stats.

The Lost Sheep

jm08 wrote: »

Before POC came back, most people thought POC would not be as good as he was pre injury. Ryan is being similarly written off. In the last Ulster v Munster game in Ravenhill where Ryan partnered POC, Ulster's lineout was under a lot of pressure from Munster's (Ulster lost a couple of their own throws). Similarly against the Ospreys, Ryan & POC went well.

Not sure what you mean about POC's partnership with Ryan being a while ago - he played with him a couple of times at the end of the season. Ryan has played a fair bit with Toner as well prior to his injury.

Ryan is in Schmidt's squad, so he has every chance of understanding what Schmidt wants from him. Plenty of players have made a Schmidt team with little time in any squad with him before being selected (Best, POC, POM, Murray, Bowe) and which seems to be the main argument as to why Ryan won't make the world cup squad.

Ryan hasn't shown anywhere near the form Toner or other 2nd rows have in recent times due to being out with injury. As a clubmate of DRs It would be great to see him picked to ahead of the others but he hasn't played for Ireland in two years. The other rows form is better
Ryan hasn't played much with Toner at all. Ryan hasn't been in a Schmidt match squad before and barely been in Irish squads due to injury. All those players you list are all first choice players for their positions and much more than what DR brings to a side.

I don't see room for Ryan or Touhy in the 23 really. It's going to be Henderson and Henry or Murphy.