Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

.ak

total former wrote: »

I suppose I'm not arguing Jackson v Madigan (which was the question, I know), I'm arguing Jackson vs the standard expected of an international outhalf. I think the evidence is lacking to date.

Yeah fair enough, just that wasn't the OPs question.

I do think, given the opportunity, i.e; playing on the '1st' XV, that he would impress.

I thought what he showed on Saturday was a good deal better than what Madigan has ever produced as a starter in green for example.

sydthebeat

total former wrote: »

Jackson has never had to compete with anyone of the quality of Gopperth, let alone of Sexton.

It was a great show of faith in him by Ulster, fair enough, but he's had zero competition.

that doesnt disprove my point though, Jackson is good enough to be the senior 10 (for 3 seasons, since he was 19) in Ulster whereas Madigan has never been considered the senior 10 in Leinster in the 7 seasons hes been a senior player.

if anything it reinforces my point because ulster havent needed to bring in anybody to challange him. Joe brought in gopperth presumably because he saw that Ian wasnt ready for the step up.

.ak

Deleted User wrote: »

I just got in an argument about this while watching the Welsh match and I couldn't come up with a proper argument for Jackson outside of what you guys mentioned; "better skillset for the position", "better distribution", "does the basics better", "better decision maker" which is all somewhat subjective.

Looking at how Jackson and Keatley start ahead of Madigan for Ireland recently is the most damning evidence.

Hrmm, I suppose you get into a deeper point of what exactly makes an opinion subjective...

But for me, the evidence of watching PJ play makes those statements fact rather than opinion. His distributing is lovely, he has a snappy flat pass and knows when to use it, can pass off both hands equally well, and has great awareness of his backline. His decision making is often justified, how many people do we see getting put through gaps because of PJ's ability to read a correct change of direction or angle from his midfield?

For me, the basics of an outhalf are these; communicate with your backline, organise calls, distribute well and have a good kicking game. He does all 4 very well imo.

Witheringeye

I'm a huge Madigan fan but Jackson is clearly the better 10. The array of passes he has in his locker are outstanding.

I think Madigan is in a really unique position. He's struggled to get much game time at 10, maybe with a run of games he might be able to demonstrate that he has the game management skills required to start at 10 but it's unlikely. However, he may well be the best no. 22 in Europe, and one of the best in the world.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

that doesnt disprove my point though, Jackson is good enough to be the senior 10 (for 3 seasons, since he was 19) in Ulster whereas Madigan has never been considered the senior 10 in Leinster in the 7 seasons hes been a senior player.

if anything it reinforces my point because ulster havent needed to bring in anybody to challange him. Joe brought in gopperth presumably because he saw that Ian wasnt ready for the step up.

The talk at the time was that Goperth was coming in as cover for international window so it's more that Joe was worried about Madigan being away and we needed a second quality 10. Whatever happened after that fair enough, but I don't think it was entirely a belief that Madigan couldn't cut it.

phog

Some of the problem for Paddy seems to be that if Sexton starts Madigan gets the bench split and that reduces the amount of gametime that Paddy picks up.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

The talk at the time was that Goperth was coming in as cover for international window so it's more that Joe was worried about Madigan being away and we needed a second quality 10. Whatever happened after that fair enough, but I don't think it was entirely a belief that Madigan couldn't cut it.

There isn't a huge amount of evidence that Joe has selected Madigan at outhalf when there's an alternative available. He even gave Keatley a start v Italy in the 6Ns ahead of him.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

The talk at the time was that Goperth was coming in as cover for international window so it's more that Joe was worried about Madigan being away and we needed a second quality 10. Whatever happened after that fair enough, but I don't think it was entirely a belief that Madigan couldn't cut it.

whos talk though?

not jimmy gopperths

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

whos talk though?

not jimmy gopperths

Nope not at all - and as mentioned above Joe chose Keatley ahead of him - but that had to have been impacted by the fact that Madigan is playing most of his rugby at 12.

Am sure Jimmy was coming in to take top spot if possible, but the media and even on here were firmly suggesting that it was going to be Madigan's season.

Me personally, I thought the drop from Sexton in his last season at Leinster to Madigan was quite noticeable, but Madigan scored a heap of tries and was dangerous with ball in hand so he got a pass a lot of the time.

Whether he has the temperament to run a backline is up for debate, certainly nothing to show yet that he can.

Eitherway, I'm not suggesting he leapfrog Jackson, but I also agree with those here suggesting that Jackson is only bordering on international level as it stands.

Whether we like it our not, our world cup kinda hinges on Sexton staying fit.

total former

.ak wrote: »

Yeah fair enough, just that wasn't the OPs question.

I do think, given the opportunity, i.e; playing on the '1st' XV, that he would impress.

I thought what he showed on Saturday was a good deal better than what Madigan has ever produced as a starter in green for example.

I thought his performance on Saturday was almost Madigan-esque; some lovely passes, shifted the point of attack nicely, coupled with some poor choices and pretty bad kicking from hand. It wasn't the first XV but his pack were utterly dominant and he was getting lovely service from his 9. But it was the first game back I suppose.

I'm not bashing Jackson, just the basis for people's certainty of his abilities.

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

I thought his performance on Saturday was almost Madigan-esque; some lovely passes, shifted the point of attack nicely, coupled with some poor choices and pretty bad kicking from hand. It wasn't the first XV but his pack were utterly dominant and he was getting lovely service from his 9. But it was the first game back I suppose.

I'm not bashing Jackson, just the basis for people's certainty of his abilities.

Yeah but Jackson has had days where he's shown the exact opposite of that. I won't quickly forget that day Ulster played Munster and he dominated the territory battle and had the Munster back 3 moving around the park (playing against ROG as well so it stood out). He's someone who can take a team through the phases and dispose of the ball when it's needed, even Sexton has had days where that side of his game has slipped away from him.

The difference between Jackson and Madigan, and the reason there's so much certainty, is that it's a recurring problem for Madigan and it's notable when he does well in that side of the game, whereas for Jackson the opposite is true.

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

There is no question that Jackson is a far better 10 than Madigan. That's not even up for debate at this stage.

awec wrote: »

Everything is an opinion given there's no way to conclusively prove otherwise.

The best you can hope for is an educated opinion based on performances and ability and I think it has been pretty well established over the past year and a bit that Jackson is a step above Madigan at 10.

If everything is an opinion, and people still debate the matter, then how can there be no question that Jackson is a far better 10 than Madigan, it not even be up for debate, and it be pretty well established over the past year ?

mfceiling

I think a few of us forget that PJ is still only 23. Maybe it's a wee bit early to be dismissing him as not of international standard yet. Also bear in mind that he's serving his time behind probably one of if not the best 10's we've ever had.

mfceiling

mfceiling wrote: »

I think a few of us forget that PJ is still only 23. Maybe it's a wee bit early to he dismissing him as not of international standard yet. Also bear in mind that he's serving his time behind probably one of if not the best 10's we've ever had.

Ah he was grand at the weekend. Didn't tear it up but apart from that one kick in particular didn't do a whole lot wrong either.

The Rape of Lucretia

mfceiling wrote: »

I think a few of us forget that PJ is still only 23. Maybe it's a wee bit early to he dismissing him as not of international standard yet. Also bear in mind that he's serving his time behind probably one of if not the best 10's we've ever had.

Not sure that I have seen too many dismissing him of not international standard and never will be. The topic is pretty focused on whether he is up to the level now, and for this world cup.
I think everyone would agree that time is on his side, he is a player of significant natural talent, and he will be a better player in a few years time.

total former

mfceiling wrote: »

I think a few of us forget that PJ is still only 23. Maybe it's a wee bit early to he dismissing him as not of international standard yet. Also bear in mind that he's serving his time behind probably one of if not the best 10's we've ever had.

That's exactly my point though. I'm not dismissing him at all, I'm saying it's too early to judge one way or the other.

total former

The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that Joe is basing anything on performances in these matches.

So they've been in camp for what, six weeks now? Running drills, working on set pieces, etc., and Joe had already worked with 99% of the squad before, he must have a very clear idea of what he wants and who he wants.

To turn around and change his mind on the strength of a scratch game against poor opposition, it would be so un-Joelike.

So yeah, his squad is picked. No one is playing their way in, only injuries/fitness are going to cause a change.

Awesomeness

Team named tomorrow or Thursday?

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that Joe is basing anything on performances in these matches.

So they've been in camp for what, six weeks now? Running drills, working on set pieces, etc., and Joe had already worked with 99% of the squad before, he must have a very clear idea of what he wants and who he wants.

To turn around and change his mind on the strength of a scratch game against poor opposition, it would be so un-Joelike.

So yeah, his squad is picked. No one is playing their way in, only injuries/fitness are going to cause a change.

It can be quite difficult to judge match-fitness in training though. That's what they'll be looking for. They'll be looking to see how guys like Trimble/Fitzgerald are shaping up in the games.

There's also the fact that in the backs at the moment they have multiple guys who have started. Trimble, Zebo, D Kearney, Fitzgerald are all guys who've started for Joe and then there's also Earls. The margin between those guys is so slim that performances in the games could easily sway the decision. So I'd say it's more likely that almost the entirety of the squad is decided with 1/2 guys securing their places based on performances in the warm-ups.

total former

total former wrote: »

No one is playing their way in, only injuries/fitness are going to cause a change.

At this level there are going to be fine margins between some players for certain spots and none of these guys are the perfect article. So if one player shows that they are improving into the player Joe wants more than another you can bet it will impact on the thinking.

Joe would hardly have pushed for 4 warm up games if he wasn't still honing in on the final number. If it was just for match fitness we would have had more of the squad out Saturday.

First Up

total former wrote: »

The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that Joe is basing anything on performances in these matches.

So they've been in camp for what, six weeks now? Running drills, working on set pieces, etc., and Joe had already worked with 99% of the squad before, he must have a very clear idea of what he wants and who he wants.

To turn around and change his mind on the strength of a scratch game against poor opposition, it would be so un-Joelike.

So yeah, his squad is picked. No one is playing their way in, only injuries/fitness are going to cause a change.

There are some things you can only assess in matches. As well as being a chance to try out moves etc. it is informative to see how players handle match situations - decision making, adapting to the opposition etc.

The technology allows all the physical attributes to be logged. Matches test how well players use them. I reckon there are four or five names still in pencil rather than ink.

postitnote

total former wrote: »

The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that Joe is basing anything on performances in these matches.

So they've been in camp for what, six weeks now? Running drills, working on set pieces, etc., and Joe had already worked with 99% of the squad before, he must have a very clear idea of what he wants and who he wants.

To turn around and change his mind on the strength of a scratch game against poor opposition, it would be so un-Joelike.

So yeah, his squad is picked. No one is playing their way in, only injuries/fitness are going to cause a change.

Agreed.

Some people on here are trying to pick the squad based on 80 mins of a warm up game.

6 weeks is a long time to get things right.

If incumbent X is dropped for newbie Y i'm sure there's a damn good reason for it. And if it's because after 6 weeks Y is better than X ever was, then we are in a damn good place.

I am excited for this world cup

total former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It can be quite difficult to judge match-fitness in training though. That's what they'll be looking for. They'll be looking to see how guys like Trimble/Fitzgerald are shaping up in the games.

There's also the fact that in the backs at the moment they have multiple guys who have started. Trimble, Zebo, D Kearney, Fitzgerald are all guys who've started for Joe and then there's also Earls. The margin between those guys is so slim that performances in the games could easily sway the decision. So I'd say it's more likely that almost the entirety of the squad is decided with 1/2 guys securing their places based on performances in the warm-ups.

Fitness, yes, definitely, and there are five or six guys with injury doubts, not just Healy and Trimble, who may need to show that they're up to it.

The second point, I dunno, it just wouldn't be Joe's style to be swayed by one match, he can't have been looking at (for example) Dave Kearney and Simon Zebo the last six weeks or the last two years and be waiting until now to decide which suits his plans better. It just doesn't seem like Joe's MO.

.ak

total former wrote: »

The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that Joe is basing anything on performances in these matches.

So they've been in camp for what, six weeks now? Running drills, working on set pieces, etc., and Joe had already worked with 99% of the squad before, he must have a very clear idea of what he wants and who he wants.

To turn around and change his mind on the strength of a scratch game against poor opposition, it would be so un-Joelike.

So yeah, his squad is picked. No one is playing their way in, only injuries/fitness are going to cause a change.

Yeah, I would say atleast 27, if not more, are picked already. But yeah, I do think fitness, injury, and form will have a part to play deciding the full 31.

.ak

Deleted User wrote: »

At this level there are going to be fine margins between some players for certain spots and none of these guys are the perfect article. So if one player shows that they are improving into the player Joe wants more than another you can bet it will impact on the thinking.

Joe would hardly have pushed for 4 warm up games if he wasn't still honing in on the final number. If it was just for match fitness we would have had more of the squad out Saturday.

Did Joe push for that? Or was it the IRFU? (i.e; money decision)

total former

.ak wrote: »

Did Joe push for that? Or was it the IRFU? (i.e; money decision)

If it was a money decision, it hasn't worked. Ticket sales have been brutal.

.ak

total former wrote: »

If it was a money decision, it hasn't worked. Ticket sales have been brutal.

True, but they have been pushing them.

Do they get a cut of the away games?

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Did Joe push for that? Or was it the IRFU? (i.e; money decision)

I'd be surprised and disappointed if it was a decision made on a financial basis.

The coach should have final say and I think if Joe wasn't 100% happy with 4 games the IRFU wouldn't jeopardise the relationship and the WC preparation to make a bit of extra dosh.

Or at least I'd be disappointed if they did.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Did Joe push for that? Or was it the IRFU? (i.e; money decision)

Ah stop would you.

There's no way in hell the IRFU would do anything that Schmidt would say was detrimental to the RWC prep. We've seen under both Kidney and EOS what happens when the team doesn't perform, people stop showing up. A good RWC is much better for the bank balance than an extra warmup game.

.ak

It was a genuine question, I have no idea either way.

However, the realist in me reminds me that the game is professional, and the entire business model is looked at as a whole. I'm sure the management want warm up games - but I'd find it surprising if Joe pushed for 4 games, why not 2 or 3, especially as I'd say he's already made up his mind about the squad. 4 games is just more opportunity for injury.

Not doing well in the RWC won't dent 6N sales, it never has - we've never done that well!

vienne86

.ak wrote: »

It was a genuine question, I have no idea either way.

However, the realist in me reminds me that the game is professional, and the entire business model is looked at as a whole. I'm sure the management want warm up games - but I'd find it surprising if Joe pushed for 4 games, why not 2 or 3, especially as I'd say he's already made up his mind about the squad. 4 games is just more opportunity for injury.

Not doing well in the RWC won't dent 6N sales, it never has - we've never done that well!

I wouldn't be so sure about Joe has already made up his mind....but you are quite right about the 6N tickets - they will always sell.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

It was a genuine question, I have no idea either way.

However, the realist in me reminds me that the game is professional, and the entire business model is looked at as a whole. I'm sure the management want warm up games - but I'd find it surprising if Joe pushed for 4 games, why not 2 or 3, especially as I'd say he's already made up his mind about the squad. 4 games is just more opportunity for injury.

Not doing well in the RWC won't dent 6N sales, it never has - we've never done that well!

Because it's not enough to give everyone enough games. Heaslip played at the weekend, do you think it's good prep for him to not play again until the RWC now?

.ak

3 games is plenty. One 'experimental' game, and two games shared with the 31.

EDIT: Anyway, I wasn't trying to make a point, I was genuinely asking - did Schmidt push for 4 games, i.e; has that been officially said or did he say it in an interview?

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

Fitness, yes, definitely, and there are five or six guys with injury doubts, not just Healy and Trimble, who may need to show that they're up to it.

The second point, I dunno, it just wouldn't be Joe's style to be swayed by one match, he can't have been looking at (for example) Dave Kearney and Simon Zebo the last six weeks or the last two years and be waiting until now to decide which suits his plans better. It just doesn't seem like Joe's MO.

I'd say Joe has a very good idea of what and who he wants in his 31. But as IBF said the margins are so fine for those last couple of outside back spots that every factor counts. Will the warm-ups cause him I do a 180 on a selection? No. Will they tip his hand one way or another in what is a very tight call? Possibly.

aimee1

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd say Joe has a very good idea of what and who he wants in his 31. But as IBF said the margins are so fine for those last couple of outside back spots that every factor counts. Will the warm-ups cause him I do a 180 on a selection? No. Will they tip his hand one way or another in what is a very tight call? Possibly.

He could be swayed if he plans to make some changes to the way the team plays. I think the 31 he wants to bring is already settled but there could be a change or two

Buer

Big difference when you've the opportunity to try a few different things like Cave at 12, Earls at 13 or maybe Zebo at 15 under his systems. Training and previous knowledge will go a long way to deciding the squad but the warm up matches will undoubtedly have a significant influence on those final few selections.

sydthebeat

lets not forget new Zealand won the last RWC with weepu kicking for most of it and Steven Donald playing for most of the final... some things cannot be pre planned

game time for all these fringe players is valuable

salmocab

I reckon that the 31 was almost decided months ago with maybe a question or two in joes head, injuries not withstanding. 4 games gives opportunity to look at the last question or two for him but also to give the players that are likely to come in for injuries time to get to know systems etc on the field and not just in training situations. Someone like TOD if he hadn't got injured may not have made the 31 but its very likely that he would have been called up at some stage as the way the game is played now its unlikely we can play 6 or 7 games without losing a back row to injury, so if he had played some part in 2 or 3 of the warmups he could have easily slotted in.

total former

https://instagram.com/p/6NvYN6twlw/

jm08

.ak wrote: »

3 games is plenty. One 'experimental' game, and two games shared with the 31.

EDIT: Anyway, I wasn't trying to make a point, I was genuinely asking - did Schmidt push for 4 games, i.e; has that been officially said or did he say it in an interview?

I'd say the decision was based on experience. Last time they played 4 as well (France home and away), Scotland & England (home).

They also put on an additional game v Connacht.

.ak

total former wrote: »

https://instagram.com/p/6NvYN6twlw/

Who's using the Nokia camera phone from 2001?

total former

sydthebeat wrote: »

lets not forget new Zealand won the last RWC with weepu kicking for most of it and Steven Donald playing for most of the final... some things cannot be pre planned

game time for all these fringe players is valuable

That's exactly what Joe said the other day, made some quip about Donald not fitting into the jersey when he arrived...

Quin_Dub

OSI wrote: »

€50-€75 for tickets to see a "warm-up" match between Ireland and Scotland ffs. There's definitely a commercial decision to these games. I paid less than that for premium tickets for the Leinster Munster game.

Really?

That's just silly... I know they are missing out on the November internationals revenue, but seriously....

Those tickets should be €25 at most and a tenner for kids....

phog

OSI wrote: »

€50-€75 for tickets to see a "warm-up" match between Ireland and Scotland ffs. There's definitely a commercial decision to these games. I paid less than that for premium tickets for the Leinster Munster game.

How much do the provinces charge for pre season friendlies. I think Munster nearly charge similar rates to Pro12 games.

75 might be excessive but the 50 is reasonable for pre Workd Cup International game

thomond2006

There were €15 - €75 tickets available.

dub_skav

sydthebeat wrote: »

lets not forget new Zealand won the last RWC with weepu kicking for most of it and Steven Donald playing for most of the final... some things cannot be pre planned

game time for all these fringe players is valuable

You're right, time to start getting refs onside :P

aimee1

Herring and reid cut.

.ak

Surprised a higher number wasn't cut.

Squidgy Black

aimee1 wrote: »

Herring and reid cut.

Squads at 42 now because of TOD, 11 more to go...

total former

Discuss.