Dublin school cancels workshop on homophobic bullying, saying “both sides should be r

floggg

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Is it not generally accepted that bullies tend to become bullies dur to their own insecurities? How do you tackle their behaviour? Would a course aimed at improving self esteem not help the victims while also reducing the risk of future bullying?

I have addressed the other points elsewhere, but I don't think that racial, sectarian or homophobic bullying is just down to insecurity on the part of an individual bully.

I think it can often be a cultural thing - that certain people or groups of people are not accepted and that it is right or appropriate to target them. And often times people can often feel pressured to join in.

Look at sectarianism in the north. Its not that the angry mob on the 12th July are all feeling particularly insecure about themselves, its that the have been brought up to hate the other side, and in a culture which condones such violent outbursts.

So I don't think that you can say bullying targetted at individuals who fall within a particular group, whether it be racial, religious, sexual minorities etc always happens for the same reasons as other forms of bullying. Sometimes its not about the insecurity of the bully or the weakness or the victim - its about what the bully has been brought up to believe.

Which again goes to the point that a one size fits all approach doesn't work when tackling various forms of bullying. They happen for different reasons and manifest themselves in different ways.

If you refuse to recgonise that, than you can't really effectively tackle any of them.

K4t

floggg wrote: »

As for the russian laws, I again don't want to get into arguing a hierarchy of discrimination. But its worth noting that while it applies equally to heterosexuals and homosexuals, by its nature it will be felt more by homosexuals who can't even freely talk about their relationships without risking falling foul of the promotion laws.

I'm saying it could reach a stage where none of that even matters. The whole country believe it so much, are so convinced by their belief, that they start introducing laws banning homosexuality, laws making it ok to discriminate against gays, laws stating all gays must be imprisoned and anyone in support of homosexuality being never mind natural or normal but even legal are to be imprisoned. By then it won't matter who is actually gay or bisexual or straight as nobody will be able to speak out against homophobia. That is the alternative when anyone speaks of silencing and supressing opinions, whether it be homophobic or racist or blasphemous. It can just as easily be the other way around and all those beliefs can be replaced by rational, logical and equality for all driven opinions. You can say how absurd or how unlikely a situation like that is but remember that is only because of things like freedom of speech and expression that it is not, and we ourselves attempt to limit and restrict those very freedoms, and every time we do we are taking a step, even if a very small one, towards the situation I described. It's so easy to live in a western bubble of freedom of thinking and expression like Ireland and forget that it is just as easy for such a situation as I described to become real. We should always be fearful of it happening and never lose that fear, and certainly not make it easier for those who would love to inflict it upon us by censoring speech or expression of any kind, especially that which we disagree with.

Mr. G

Both sides heard? What other side is there?

One eyed Jack

bb1234567 wrote: »

I'm not missing the point, I get where you're coming from, yes all bullying is bad but some forms of bullying are worse than others. Theres a reason why theres a gay rights movement and not a ginger or short peoples rights movement.

Is there not? I like you bb, you come out with some odd stuff, but I would urge you to read up on something called "socially acceptable prejudice". There actually ARE movements to end discrimination and prejudice against people who are ginger haired, and there are of course movements to end discrimination and prejudice against people who are dwarves. You're just not aware of them, a fact which in itself speaks volumes about your awareness (or indeed lack thereof), of other people who face prejudice and discrimination every day besides yourself.

floggg wrote: »

You are quoting me out of context there. I said it would take a much stronger character than I am to be able to deal with fears relating to being outed etc, the problem wasn't my lack of confidence or self esteem but the nature of coming out in a heteronormative society and exposing a part of you that you are made to feel some degree of shame over.

I think this again goes back to me point about heterosexual people lacking the experience and perspective to credibly tell LGBT people how to deal with these issues.

You're making the assumption that heterosexual people always identified as heterosexual. I can at least tell you from my own experience that as a child I identified far more comfortably with assuming I was homosexual, and my sexual identity wasn't that big a deal to me personally. But as I grew into my teens, that's when the trouble really started as up to that point I'd always thought of myself as attracted to males, and there was nothing really happened to question that. That was of course until all sorts of hormones kicked in and I began to realise I was sexually attracted to women. Your "shame in a heteronormative society" was never an issue for me until I began to experience the complete opposite mental framework that I struggled with throughout my teens tbh.

That's why nowadays I have a complete aversion to labelling and stereotyping people based on traits and who they are sexually attracted to, because labels are nice and handy for compartmentalising people, but breaking down a person like that into their various labels means that you're losing sight of the bigger picture - the person themselves as a whole. That's why I personally don't like pigeon-holing people or encouraging them to pigeon-hole themselves, because I've seen far more people tormented and pressured by this feeling that they have to "come out" than I have seen people who feel they don't have to answer to anyone for their sexuality. Which person do you think is happier in themselves, more confident, self-assured, etc? The person who doesn't feel they have to conform to homonormative stereotypes they see portrayed in the media and in wider society. Why? Because that's one less thing they have to worry about.

You say we should focus on building up the character of kids to deal with this abuse, but i think that shows a lack of understanding of why LGBT kids can have a hard time. The problem isn't that all LGBT people are born to be of a particularly weak nature, but rather hard that is is hard to instil confidence and esteem in LGBT children when they live in an environment where they are made to feel that they cannot openly be themselves.

I understand all too well floggg why children who identify as LGBT can have a hard time. Because they're children! They're discovering who they are and they sometimes have questions they have no answers for, they lack the information to be able to figure themselves out for themselves, and they feel pressured to fit in with their peer group, and anything can have them stand out, not just indentifying themselves as LGBT, but in fact a whole spectrum of child development issues, emotional, mental and physical. Nobody floggg, lives in an environment where 'they can openly be themselves', because the pressure to fit in with a society's and expectations, let alone the pressure people put on themselves, is immense. That is why I suggest that it's more important to equip people from an early age with the tools to cope with this pressure. I fundamentally disagree with the opinion that it's a particularly hard thing to do to instill confidence and self-esteem in chilldren from an early age. It's what we should be doing, so that they can apply these tools in any situation they may face.

Most LGBT people will have discovered that being LGBT is not desirable or acceptable in many peoples eyes before the will even know they are LGBT. Its something you cant help but absorb from your environment, and whether from debates on TV and radio about LGBT rights and equality, from homophobic comments from family members, negative or stereotyped portrayals of LGBT people, or homophobic language in the school yard - even if not intended in a homophobic manner.

Thankfully, for me at least in that respect, I grew up in the arsehole of nowhere, in an age before the Internet and social media (it wasn't exactly a mormon lifestyle, but by standards nowadays, concerns about my sexuality came waaaaay down the list of priorities!), and so I was never exposed to anything that would challenge my thoughts on my own sexuality. I knew about human sexuality of course from reading the Encyclopedia Britannica (my mother's persistence and a refusal to accept that I could neither read nor write well, nor adequately comprehend the world around me meant that I was exposed to much more literature, arts and music than your average child). Because of my physical disability, I pushed myself harder in competitive physical sports such as judo, gymnastics (I was shyte at hurling, end of), and Irish dancing than any of the other children. I wanted to fit in with my peers in all the ways I felt I didn't fit in. My sexuality was just never on the radar.

For example "Thats so gay" has become ubiquitous in our schools and every where else to describe something as bad/negative etc. Most times the person saying it won't really be thinking in terms of "homosexual" when saying it, but for a closeted gay kid coming to terms with who they are they, they cant help but hear the association with gay/homosexual and something negative or undesirable.

Kids also use and hear terms like gay, queer and ****** as put down, and mock any sign of "femininity". Even if not targeted at you, it cuts deep because you know that's what you are and thats not seen as something you should be.

Yes, and y'know what? That's why telling children that the language they use can be hurtful, giving them a list of terms not to use, and terms to use, is an utterly futile exercise. Language evolves, all the time, and this is one of the arguments against the use of the word 'retarded' that I have yet to come up with any compelling answer for. People will always argue that they have a right to use what language they want and, "it's only a word, if people are offended by words, that's their problem!". Wonderful, isn't it? People arguing that they have a right to be inconsiderate, until it's a word or a turn of phrase that triggers with them and offends them! I completely get where you're coming from btw and yes, it does cut deep, and even bb above failed to realise this in suggesting that there were no rights movements for 'gingers' or 'small people'. Socially acceptable prejudice and discrimination, applies to everyone in society, not just to "minority groups", because every person is part of a minority group in one way, and part of a majority group in another. Just ask anyone you know who identifies as atheist. Nine times out of ten they're a well educated white person, as opposed to an ill educated black person.

By the time we realise who we are, we have learned to hide it. And the damage that does goes way deeper than body issues or other problems kids have. It doesn't just affect how you see yourself in the here and now, it can make you fearful for your future -of growing up to be the negative stereotype everybody likes to laugh at, of never having a family etc. It makes you conscious of every thing you say and do, lest you give yourself away or mark yourself out as different.

So the ways homophobia manifests itself and affects people really do differ from other forms of bullying and discrimination. Thats not to say its any more or less serious than other forms of bullying and discrimination, just different.

And thats not to downplay any issues you have - just to say that they any problems you might experience as a result don't necessarily manifest or affect you in the same way.

For example, people who are picked on because of their race or their appearance, they can't hide the thing that makes them a target. its there for all to see, and everybody they encounter will observe it immediately.

In some ways that's worse, because they can never just hide from it, or blend in. They will always be seen as black, or fat or ginger or whatever.

In other ways it can be better though, because they have no choice but to accept it and try to develop a thick skin. They don't spend their formative years trying to hide their identity, or carry it as a secret burden.

I fundamentally disagree with the part in bold there, and I'll tell you why - because you're seeing just the issues, and not the person themselves as a whole. The rest of your post could apply to anyone. Anyone, based on any way in which they feel they don't fit in with what they feel is expected of them from themselves, from their peer group, and from society.

You can talk about building a positive self image for kids and giving them self confidence, but that isn't much good for you when you hear homophobic comments or gay used as a slur on a daily basis, and when the playground is made to feel like an unsafe environment to be yourself. Self confidence is hard to develop if you don't have a place in the world.

If you want to help those kids, then creating an environment where they can be themselves is far better than any positive reassurance. If they feel like they can be accepted, then they can start to be themselves and develop their confidence organically.

And you can't do that by just telling kids to respect each other without addressing some of the specific issues which they face - the language and insults children use, the way kids are made to feel obligated to conform to stereotypical gender roles etc. Its not just about what kids say to each other when they are trying to hurt each other, but what the say when they aren't - stuff which would just be playful banter akin to "your ma" jokes for a straight kid can cut some gay kids deep.

You can't cure those problems without addressing them specifically. If kids don't understand what they say or do can hurt, it won't register with them to change their behaviour if you tell them to respect each other.

If you are serious about stopping bullying and creating a safe environment for kids, then you need to address each of the problems they face. refusing to recognise differences doesn't help - it hurts them.

And that doesn't go just for LGBT issues - we should be doing the same for all other types of bullying or discrimination.

Your last line there is important, because the only way we can create that safe space for everybody, is by teaching people to respect both themselves and other people. Instilling self-confidence in children and in people is how they find their place in the world, and how they learn that they are not alone in this world, that they have to share the same space with other people who aren't always going to like them, but there's plenty of people in the same space that do, and talking about 'safe spaces' and so on is encouraging people to exclude and isolate themselves from society. That's not addressing their self-esteem issues. That, to me at least, seems like it's doing the exact opposite - teaching people to define themselves by certain labels and "you fit in that box there because you're gay, you fit in that box because you're overweight, etc", and they're never taught that they have the strength to break out of that bloody box, and be who they are, and not be afraid to have their own bloody identity that they figure out for themselves, because they've never been given the tools to do so, but rather had their issues with themselves continuously enabled and highlighted and allowed themselves to be defined by how other people see them, rather than how they see themselves!