Dublin school cancels workshop on homophobic bullying, saying “both sides should be r

Undergod

i hate the way you can't do any work on one bullying til you totally stop the other bullying

K4t

Undergod wrote: »

i hate the way you can't do any work on one bullying til you totally stop the other bullying

There is no other bullying. There is only bullying.


Work on homophobia and bullying separately and you just might stand a chance of eradicating homophobia. Then you are just left with the bullies, of which there are not many, and we have rules and regulations to deal with them.

Lyaiera

K4t wrote: »

There is no other bullying. There is only bullying.

You do realise things can be broken down into littler things. Like there's food, then there's burgers and also lasagne. There's alcohol, then there's beers and also red wine. There's science, then there's biology and also physics.

Now. With these, "big things" someone can be an expert. But if they want to learn about making the "big thing" they might have to learn about making the "littler thing" first.

So there's bullying (the "big thing") and there's homophobic bullying (one of the "littler things") and racist bullying (another of the "littler things.") To deal with the "big things" sometimes you might deal with the "littler things" first.

In much the same way I addressed your problem, the big thing, by breaking it down into littler things.

Hope that helped.

K4t

Lyaiera wrote: »

You do realise things can be broken down into littler things. Like there's food, then there's burgers and also lasagne. There's alcohol, then there's beers and also red wine. There's science, then there's biology and also physics.

Now. With these, "big things" someone can be an expert. But if they want to learn about making the "big thing" they might have to learn about making the "littler thing" first.

So there's bullying (the "big thing") and there's homophobic bullying (one of the "littler things") and racist bullying (another of the "littler things.") To deal with the "big things" sometimes you might deal with the "littler things" first.

In much the same way I addressed your problem, the big thing, by breaking it down into littler things.

Hope that helped.

Ah, thanks, but I don't have a problem.

I suggest you read my previous posts because you've missed my point spectacularly. I don't believe in your big thing little thing analogy as I have and do maintain that homophobia and bullying are separate issues, both incredibly important. Putting them together makes things worse.

Short run solutions to long run problems rarely ever work, and never with social issues such as racism, sexism, homophobia etc. Homophobia is a big enough thing on its own, it doesn't need to be associated with bullying, that does more harm than good. Tackle them both head on, just do it separately.

One eyed Jack

bb1234567 wrote: »

IS it? really?
You don't see many ethnic minority school kids committing suicide due to bullying over their race. All too common for gay kids

''Numerous studies have shown that lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth have a higher rate of suicide attempts than do heterosexual youth. The Suicide Prevention Resource Center synthesized these studies and estimated that between 30 and 40% of LGBT youth, depending on age and sex groups, have attempted suicide.[19] A U.S. government study, titled Report of the Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, published in 1989, found that LGBT youth are four times more likely to attempt suicide than other young people''

"LGBT students are three times as likely as non-LGBT students to say that they do not feel safe at school (22% vs. 7%) and 90% of LGBT students (vs. 62% of non-LGBT teens) have been harassed or assaulted during the past year."

Its not a competition, both are important issues that need to be addressed equally. I don't know what makes you come to the conclusion that racial bullying is a more prominent issue , I don't think 30-40% of lgbt youth attempting suicide could be any bigger of an issue honestly.

You're using a U.S. government study from 25 years ago to make your point about the rate of suicide among young people who are LGBT in Ireland in 2015? You can see why that's not going to fly surely?


Anyway, it's not often I agree with Sen. David Norris (because he's a fcuking head melt, plain and simple), but on this one, he's bang on the money. Some excerpts -

I'd have had more admiration for Leo if he hadn't come out

I can't for the life of me understand why Leo Varadkar felt he had to 'come out'. And I've tried very hard, because I know from gay friends and acquaintances that many gay people feel discriminated against in our society, and I certainly don't want to be part of that discrimination.

But Dr Varadkar was the same person last Monday as he was two days previously: a very prominent, high-profile politician who is obviously very, very ambitious; works in the most poisoned-chalice ministerial job there is, but, so far, is not showing that he is making a particularly good fist of that job.

And just what the hell has his sexuality got to do with all of that? And what business of mine or anybody else's is it?

If he, or any other gay man or woman, thinks his sexuality is a factor in his public life - which is the only part of his life with which the rest of us have any right to be concerned - then he and other gays who feel like he does are allowing themselves to be bullied. They really do need to get it into their heads that prejudice is actually far less rampant than they seem to think.

And, Varadkar paradoxically proved this in the days following his disclosure on radio: the reaction was almost wholly (and gushingly) approving. From the number of times the word "courage" was used, you'd think he'd chosen to run naked through an extremely heavily populated poisonous snake-pit.

And if gay people feel they have to make a statement about their sexuality, they are giving in to the bigots who have an alarming, arguably de-humanising agenda.

And my own view was, and is, that he didn't have to come out, or fear being outed. Nor did he have to live his personal life in a fearful shadowland. All he had to do was live an openly gay life.

In other words, if invited somewhere and invited to bring a partner, just to turn up with a boyfriend. When out on a date, hold hands the way a heterosexual couple would; do a bit of mild snogging on a dancefloor, the way a heterosexual couple would.

And if somebody had the nasty bad manners and cruel mindset to offend him with a vicious insult, to remember that inadequate bullies always pick on what they believe to be their victim's most vulnerable point. It's the schoolyard mentality of nasty names: "spotty", "four-eyes", "fatty" and "queer". They all hurt; they're all aimed where the bully thinks they will hurt most. Gays aren't alone in having insults thrown at them in a way that is as grotesquely hurtful as possible.

The handsome, intelligent, talented, quiet man who created Panti, whose name is Rory O'Neill, has got it wrong in my opinion. When ignorant pigs want to insult him, the only weapon they have in their armoury is that he's gay: in every "normal" way, he's admirable and enviable. Every ignorant pig wants a target; every ignorant pig will find one.

Rory and Panti Bliss need to realise this. We all need to say that there's nothing to "celebrate" in a gay coming out. We need to feel free to tell gays (usually men) who begin far too many conversations with "speaking as a gay man" that we're not remotely interested in their sex lives. That's because we all know, as one wise person once said, that the people who really have sex don't talk about it. It's private.

Little CuChulainn

bb1234567 wrote: »

IS it? really?
You don't see many ethnic minority school kids committing suicide due to bullying over their race. All too common for gay kids

''Numerous studies have shown that lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth have a higher rate of suicide attempts than do heterosexual youth. The Suicide Prevention Resource Center synthesized these studies and estimated that between 30 and 40% of LGBT youth, depending on age and sex groups, have attempted suicide.[19] A U.S. government study, titled Report of the Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, published in 1989, found that LGBT youth are four times more likely to attempt suicide than other young people''

"LGBT students are three times as likely as non-LGBT students to say that they do not feel safe at school (22% vs. 7%) and 90% of LGBT students (vs. 62% of non-LGBT teens) have been harassed or assaulted during the past year."

Its not a competition, both are important issues that need to be addressed equally. I don't know what makes you come to the conclusion that racial bullying is a more prominent issue , I don't think 30-40% of lgbt youth attempting suicide could be any bigger of an issue honestly.

Have you any Irish sources? From my own experiences, I don't think being lgbt is a major factor in many attempts, successful or not, at suicide in this country. Certainly, in all the inquests I've attended, I've never been to one where this was considered to be the issue.

Lyaiera

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Have you any Irish sources? From my own experiences, I don't think being lgbt is a major factor in many attempts, successful or not, at suicide in this country. Certainly, in all the inquests I've attended, I've never been to one where this was considered to be the issue.

http://www.glen.ie/attachments/SUPPORTING_LGBT_LIVES_-_Main_Report.pdf

http://www.youth.ie/sites/youth.ie/files/Chapter%203%20-%20working%20with%20young%20people%20who%20are%20LGBT%20-%20all%20Ireland.pdf

Little CuChulainn

Lyaiera wrote: »

http://www.glen.ie/attachments/SUPPORTING_LGBT_LIVES_-_Main_Report.pdf

http://www.youth.ie/sites/youth.ie/files/Chapter%203%20-%20working%20with%20young%20people%20who%20are%20LGBT%20-%20all%20Ireland.pdf

Those reports don't match the figures already posted (30-40%). Only 17% of respondants to the online survey admitted attempting suicide, with only half of those attributing it to their orientation and only 2/3 of the attempts requiring medical treatment. So that's 6% of respondants admitting a serious attempt at suicide as a result of their orientation. The reports don't show any comparisons to non lgbt people either.

rab!dmonkey

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're using a U.S. government study from 25 years ago to make your point about the rate of suicide among young people who are LGBT in Ireland in 2015? You can see why that's not going to fly surely?


Anyway, it's not often I agree with Sen. David Norris (because he's a fcuking head melt, plain and simple), but on this one, he's bang on the money. Some excerpts -

I'd have had more admiration for Leo if he hadn't come out

Those aren't Senator Norris' words.

Lyaiera

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Those reports don't match the figures already posted (30-40%). Only 17% of respondants to the online survey admitted attempting suicide, with only half of those attributing it to their orientation and only 2/3 of the attempts requiring medical treatment. So that's 6% of respondants admitting a serious attempt at suicide as a result of their orientation. The reports don't show any comparisons to non lgbt people either.

There's a whole report on how homophobia and transphobia affects LGBT people. You'd be better off assimilating the problems it presents rather than trying to downplay suicide attempts.

Also I don't see much of a difference between a suicide attempt that requires medical treatment and one that doesn't seeing as the person has still tried to kill themselves. And to downplay a suicide attempt because it wasn't "seriousness" enough is ****ing sick.

One eyed Jack

Lyaiera wrote: »

There's a whole report on how homophobia and transphobia affects LGBT people. You'd be better off assimilating the problems it presents rather than trying to downplay suicide attempts.

Also I don't see much of a difference between a suicide attempt that requires medical treatment and one that doesn't seeing as the person has still tried to kill themselves. And to downplay a suicide attempt because it wasn't "seriousness" enough is ****ing sick.

I don't think that's what Little Cuchulainn was attempting to do tbh. They were stating the facts as they are. It wasn't an attempt to downplay anything, but more to counteract attempts to exaggerate the issue. You're attempting to exaggerate the issue and I'm not going to say it's sick, I'm just going to say it doesn't help.

Little CuChulainn

Lyaiera wrote: »

There's a whole report on how homophobia and transphobia affects LGBT people. You'd be better off assimilating the problems it presents rather than trying to downplay suicide attempts.

Also I don't see much of a difference between a suicide attempt that requires medical treatment and one that doesn't seeing as the person has still tried to kill themselves. And to downplay a suicide attempt because it wasn't "seriousness" enough is ****ing sick.

Well like it or not, there is a difference between a genuine attempt and a cry for help. And a genuine attempt is much more likely to require hospitalization. And while both should be treated seriously, only genuine attempts should be considered when looking at suicide figures specifically, which is what we are doing. Even if you decided to include those attempts, you are still only looking at under 9% of lgbt respondants to the online survey attempting suicide as a result of their orientation, which is still pretty far off the 30-40% reported earlier. And with no comparison to non-lgbt youths it's hard to see if it is really a major issue among irish lgbt youths.

Also, you can stop with the drama. It just makes you look like you can't counter a point.

Steve_Carella

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Anyway, it's not often I agree with Sen. David Norris (because he's a fcuking head melt, plain and simple), but on this one, he's bang on the money.

You still don't agree with him. That article was written by Emer O'Kelly.

jobbridge4life

Steve_Carella wrote: »

You still don't agree with him. That article was written by Emer O'Kelly.

And a shocking piece of rubbish it is.

One eyed Jack

rab!dmonkey wrote: »

Those aren't Senator Norris' words.

Steve_Carella wrote: »

You still don't agree with him. That article was written by Emer O'Kelly.

Cheers for pointing that out lads, I thought either I was losing my marbles, or David Norris had found his! :pac:

jobbridge4life wrote: »

And a shocking piece of rubbish it is.

Don't elaborate on your opinion anyway! It'd be helpful if you did as people might then understand where you're coming from, although you're not obliged to do so. Just leave it hanging and I'll take the time to make wild stabs in the dark as to why you feel that way...

Or maybe I just won't bother making any effort either. That'll help.

floggg

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're using a U.S. government study from 25 years ago to make your point about the rate of suicide among young people who are LGBT in Ireland in 2015? You can see why that's not going to fly surely?


Anyway, it's not often I agree with Sen. David Norris (because he's a fcuking head melt, plain and simple), but on this one, he's bang on the money. Some excerpts -

I'd have had more admiration for Leo if he hadn't come out

The author was Emer O'Kelly. Does anybody know if she herself is gay?

I know a lot of gay people who would disagree with that for a number of reasons, and doesnt bear much correlation with how other public figures have experienced coming out (or indeed my own experience which was ignored by the masses). The fact that it made news world wide shows it still is a big deal, and the suggestion he could casually bring a BF to an official event and not make waves is at best naive.

The issue of visibility for other gay people is also very important, as is his right to do it on his own terms rather than wonder if and when a newspaper will try to make it a big deal (and apparently lots were trying to do so which partly prompted him to do so).

Edit - Just read the whole article and it is garbage. She seems to blame gay people for the hard time gay people have coming out. That's nonsense. As I've said on other threads, I consider my coming out to have went very well on a whole - and yet my relationship with my (then) best friend took a massive hit as a result (from which it has yet to recover), and my mothers relationship with her brother has took a massive hit because of his stated views on gay people.

its absurd bull**** which doesn't really show any understanding of what is like to have to come out, even today, and the fear and other issues that go with it.

One eyed Jack

floggg wrote: »

The author was Emer O'Kelly. Does anybody know if she herself is gay?

I don't see how that's relevant tbh. I couldn't care less who she cuddles up to at night. All I want to read is her opinion (although granted, I had mistakenly attributed her opinion to David Norris, and I don't care who he cuddles up to at night either). By now you can probably guess what I think of Leo's announcement. He's the minister for Health, I don't particularly give a damn who he cuddles up to at night either.

I know a lot of gay people who would disagree with that for a number of reasons, and doesnt bear much correlation with how other public figures have experienced coming out (or indeed my own experience which was ignored by the masses). The fact that it made news world wide shows it still is a big deal, and the suggestion he could casually bring a BF to an official event and not make waves is at best naive.

I'm not sure why your friends sexuality is relevant, I have no doubt there are plenty of heterosexual people who don't agree with it either. The fact is that those people who gave a damn about who Leo cuddles up to at night, they gave a damn. The rest of the world just carried on about it's business and the world didn't stop to contemplate the fact that Ireland has politicians who are gay. They usually expect that public figures are expected to represent their office first, and keep their private lives to themselves.

I don't think he wouldn't make waves at an official event if he brought his boyfriend along, but have you asked yourself how many people would actually care?

I imagine far more people would ask the question - "Who the hell is Leo Vradkar?", and many more young people if you ask them who is the current Irish minister for Health, I'll bet you a good many wouldn't be able to answer the question correctly.

The issue of visibility for other gay people is also very important, as is his right to do it on his own terms rather than wonder if and when a newspaper will try to make it a big deal (and apparently lots were trying to do so which partly prompted him to do so).

The way I heard it is that he was under pressure to come out before he was outed in the media. If I were Leo I would have told them go right ahead, there's no shame in being LGBT and he had no case to answer for as his sexuality has no bearing on his public office, or do you think people lying on trolleys in hospital corridors actually give a fcuk who Leo cuddles up to at night in a fancy four poster bed? I'm sure the knowledge that Leo is gay has had a dramatic improvement in their lives...

Or, y'know, maybe he should just get on with the job he was elected to do and show people that he's the same person he was before he came out to less of a fanfare and more of a single party streamer in terms of it's importance to the Irish people.

One eyed Jack

floggg wrote: »

Edit - Just read the whole article and it is garbage. She seems to blame gay people for the hard time gay people have coming out. That's nonsense. As I've said on other threads, I consider my coming out to have went very well on a whole - and yet my relationship with my (then) best friend took a massive hit as a result (from which it has yet to recover), and my mothers relationship with her brother has took a massive hit because of his stated views on gay people.

Show me anyone who hasn't experienced losing friends or had difficulties with family members over any issue you can think of, or do you assume that it's only LGBT people have ever had difficulties and anyone who isn't LGBT just sails through life?

They don't. I know I personally have more skeletons in my closet that'd make Liberace blush were he still alive. I've had strained relationships with family and lost friends and I don't see myself as any different to anyone else. I also don't see myself in any position to judge other people who aren't me. I have no interest in judging them.

its absurd bull**** which doesn't really show any understanding of what is like to have to come out, even today, and the fear and other issues that go with it.

Ah of course, sure how could anyone else understand what it's like to be a human being?

bb1234567

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Those reports don't match the figures already posted (30-40%). Only 17% of respondants to the online survey admitted attempting suicide, with only half of those attributing it to their orientation and only 2/3 of the attempts requiring medical treatment. So that's 6% of respondants admitting a serious attempt at suicide as a result of their orientation. The reports don't show any comparisons to non lgbt people either.

You make it sound like 6% isn't a lot

Anita Blow

For what it's worth, I'll throw my 2c into the discussion over suicide & LGBT people, because I find that people downplaying are largely heterosexual people who don't really understand the toll being gay has on you. Obviously it's fair enough, because they're not gay so haven't experienced it, but I suppose it can be a bit upsetting to read.
I'm in my 20s, and only came out just over a year ago. I'm almost a bit ashamed to say it, but the only reason I did was because during the Summer prior to that, my best friend attempted suicide. It was myself who found him, and took him to A&E and spent the weekend in Beaumont with him. He was one of the lads, one of the happiest people going.
It turned out that he had tried to kill himself because he was gay. The stress of keeping it inside, fear of telling his parents and telling us sent him into depression, so he overdosed on 9 different prescription meds. There and then, when he told me why he did it, I told him I was too. And I've been out ever since.
We're both average lads which I guess you'd never have been able to tell were gay. I suppose that makes it harder when you're in Secondary School, because you've to stand there and laugh while all your mates (who are genuinely good people) call each other ******s, maybe slag the one guy in your year who wasn't afraid to be out as a gay person. And to me, it's not they're fault. These same people have been nothing but supportive to me and my friend, and nothing has changed. But secondary school fosters that homophobic 'lad' culture in people who would otherwise not be homophobic. This is why these workshops are necessary, because nobody should ever have to go through what my friend went through. Even "only 6%" of LGBT teens attempting suicide over something they can't change is far too ****ing much when it's completely avoidable.

bb1234567

Anita Blow wrote: »

For what it's worth, I'll throw my 2c into the discussion over suicide & LGBT people, because I find that people downplaying are largely heterosexual people who don't really understand the toll being gay has on you. Obviously it's fair enough, because they're not gay so haven't experienced it, but I suppose it can be a bit upsetting to read.
I'm in my 20s, and only came out just over a year ago. I'm almost a bit ashamed to say it, but the only reason I did was because during the Summer prior to that, my best friend attempted suicide. It was myself who found him, and took him to A&E and spent the weekend in Beaumont with him. He was one of the lads, one of the happiest people going.
It turned out that he had tried to kill himself because he was gay. The stress of keeping it inside, fear of telling his parents and telling us sent him into depression, so he overdosed on 9 different prescription meds. There and then, when he told me why he did it, I told him I was too. And I've been out ever since.
We're both average lads which I guess you'd never have been able to tell were gay. I suppose that makes it harder when you're in Secondary School, because you've to stand there and laugh while all your mates (who are genuinely good people) call each other ******s, maybe slag the one guy in your year who wasn't afraid to be out as a gay person. And to me, it's not they're fault. These same people have been nothing but supportive to me and my friend, and nothing has changed. But secondary school fosters that homophobic 'lad' culture in people who would otherwise not be homophobic. This is why these workshops are necessary, because nobody should ever have to go through what my friend went through. Even "only 6%" of LGBT teens attempting suicide over something they can't change is far too ****ing much when it's completely avoidable.

Thats so sad Im really sorry But yes it is hard...as a gay person you either lead a secret life in constant fear of being 'outed' or an open life where you're harassed and abused.. both have certain advantages and disadvantages but either one will leave you with many psychological wounds that take many years to heal, if ever.

floggg

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm going to respond to this somewhat out of sequence to avoid having to repeat myself.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't see how that's relevant tbh. I couldn't care less who she cuddles up to at night. All I want to read is her opinion (although granted, I had mistakenly attributed her opinion to David Norris, and I don't care who he cuddles up to at night either).


I'm not sure why your friends sexuality is relevant, I have no doubt there are plenty of heterosexual people who don't agree with it either.

Ah of course, sure how could anyone else understand what it's like to be a human being?

Why is ones sexuality relevant in this instance? Simple. I generally believe that one should have relevant experience and understanding on an issue before trying to speak with any authority on the issue, or expecting to be taken seriously - particularly when it comes to what might be considered as difficult personal issues.

So for example, I wouldn't dare try to tell somebody suffering from depression how to handle it, as I have never experienced it myself. Equally (and by way of less serious example) I wouldn't really expect a lotto winner to pay much attention to me if I tried to tell him how to handle his new found wealth, not having any particular expertise.

In that vein, I asked about her sexual orientation so I could evaluate whether she is in a position to speak with any authority on this.

While of course she understands what it is like to be human, what does she understand of being a gay person, never mind a gay public figure, trying to navigate the coming out process? What makes her such an authority on the issue that she can critique Leo Varadker for how he did it?

What is her own experiences on homophobia that places her in a better position to quantify the current level of homophobia than Leo Varadkar or other gay persons?

If she is gay, then while I would still disagree with her, I know she has been in Leo's shoes herself, and therefore has seen things from his perspective.

If she isn't, then while she is entitled to comment, I would take her no more seriously than a black person would take me lecturing them on how they handle racism in Ireland, and telling them they are "allowing themselves to be bullied.”

One eyed Jack wrote: »

By now you can probably guess what I think of Leo's announcement. He's the minister for Health, I don't particularly give a damn who he cuddles up to at night either.

The fact is that those people who gave a damn about who Leo cuddles up to at night, they gave a damn. The rest of the world just carried on about it's business and the world didn't stop to contemplate the fact that Ireland has politicians who are gay.


I imagine far more people would ask the question - "Who the hell is Leo Vradkar?", and many more young people if you ask them who is the current Irish minister for Health, I'll bet you a good many wouldn't be able to answer the question correctly.

The thing is, the evidence clearly establishes that a lot of people do care, for a variety of reasons. It was headline news on the day all over Ireland, and made the news internationally as well.

Remember, he didn’t give a press conference, he gave a radio interview. The story wouldn't have made it much further than its audience that day unless the press and social media thought it had legs.

It is a big deal, and there is no point in denying it - just as it was a big deal when Belgium elected an openly gay PM which was also reported across the world.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They usually expect that public figures are expected to represent their office first, and keep their private lives to themselves.

I dont think this is in any way true either. Both Lucinda Creighton’s marriage and the birth of her child were reported in the national media. Bertie Ahern made household names out of not one partner, but two.

Do they want to know what Leo ate for dinner last night or where he spent his weekend? No (unless they are complaining he wasn’t here for some crisis or other), but a politicians private life isn’t all that private - especially if the press can find something juicy.

And what is certainly clear is that we don’t expect politicians to keep their private lives to themselves, so why should Leo be an different.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think he wouldn't make waves at an official event if he brought his boyfriend along, but have you asked yourself how many people would actually care?

You infer nobody would care, but yet:

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The way I heard it is that he was under pressure to come out before he was outed in the media.

Clearly the press thought there was a story there, otherwise they wouldn’t sniff.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If I were Leo I would have told them go right ahead, there's no shame in being LGBT and he had no case to answer for as his sexuality has no bearing on his public office, or do you think people lying on trolleys in hospital corridors actually give a fcuk who Leo cuddles up to at night in a fancy four poster bed?

That’s great if you could honestly handle it that way. Personally I don’t know too many people who would be all that comfortable sitting waiting for the press to release a story about your personal life, and something you were clearly uncomfortable with having discussed in public (as he was in that interview) - particularly if it took you a number of years to accept that part of your life in the first place.

And sure, you might say that there is no shame in being LGBT but people are still clearly made to feel that way. Things are changing rapidly, but lets not pretend that its a non-issue. There are still people who are not accepted for it, gay people still receive abuse and experience discrimination, gay people can still be fired just for being gay, and lets not forget we are about to put gay peoples rights to a public vote.

Homophobia and discrimination may feel like a non-issue or minor issue when its not targeted at you, but it feels different when you are on the receiving end. Even

One eyed Jack wrote: »

or do you think people lying on trolleys in hospital corridors actually give a fcuk who Leo cuddles up to at night in a fancy four poster bed? I'm sure the knowledge that Leo is gay has had a dramatic improvement in their lives...
Or, y'know, maybe he should just get on with the job he was elected to do and show people that he's the same person he was before he came out to less of a fanfare and more of a single party streamer in terms of it's importance to the Irish people.

If as you say his sexuality isn’t relevant to his job, his job shouldn’t be relevant to his coming out.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Show me anyone who hasn't experienced losing friends or had difficulties with family members over any issue you can think of, or do you assume that it's only LGBT people have ever had difficulties and anyone who isn't LGBT just sails through life?

They don't. I know I personally have more skeletons in my closet that'd make Liberace blush were he still alive. I've had strained relationships with family and lost friends and I don't see myself as any different to anyone else. I also don't see myself in any position to judge other people who aren't me. I have no interest in judging them.

Where exactly did I say or infer that gay people were the only ones with difficulties or issues? They clearly aren’t. The fact that other people also experience difficulties and personal issues doesn’t make coming out any less difficult however - and vice versa.

I certainly wouldn’t point to anything I went through to downplay your own problems. There will always be people going through tougher times than I will, but that doesn’t mean my tough times aren’t tough for me in that moment.

My point was really quite simple - that regardless of what she, or you or anybody else might say or argue, coming out is a difficult process. There is ample evidence that it can have terrible consequences for people in their work and personal lives.

Even the anxiety and fear people experience, knowing that you can lose friends and family as a result (which is a big deal for anybody), before coming out can take its toll.

So for her to downplay it and say it can be done casually by just showing up with a boyfriend is unrealistic - particularly in the case of a public figure who will have more than just that room watching him. Its certainly not something I would have been able to do when first coming out.

But apparently we are allowing ourselves to be bullied in the whole process. Its really quite insulting - suggesting that I am to blame because I wasn't bold and brave enough to be myself, as if being coming to terms with being gay is in any way easy.

Funnily enough, to me coming out felt like the only way I had to take control over the process. I never would have had the courage to just casually arrive home with a boyfriend as she suggested before I did. It was only I only through the whole coming out process that I gained the courage and confidence not to let other peoples opinions dictate my life.

Lyaiera

"I tried to kill myself."
"Ah but you weren't serious about it!"

Seriously, wtf?

spikeS

Lyaiera wrote: »

"I tried to kill myself."
"Ah but you weren't serious about it!"

Seriously, wtf?

Did you at least end up in critical condition, if not you did not try, it's easy to do hard to fail, if you don't end up in critical condition you didn't even try in the first place

Lyaiera

spikeS wrote: »

Did you at least end up in critical condition, if not you did not try, it's easy to do hard to fail, if you don't end up in critical condition you didn't even try in the first place

I agree. They should get better at killing themselves if they want to be taken seriously.

spikeS

Lyaiera wrote: »

I agree. They should get better at killing themselves if they want to be taken seriously.

Helium bag kit if they are serious, if you don't end up in critical condition at least you didn't want to die you just want attention

floggg

Anita Blow wrote: »

For what it's worth, I'll throw my 2c into the discussion over suicide & LGBT people, because I find that people downplaying are largely heterosexual people who don't really understand the toll being gay has on you. Obviously it's fair enough, because they're not gay so haven't experienced it, but I suppose it can be a bit upsetting to read.
I'm in my 20s, and only came out just over a year ago. I'm almost a bit ashamed to say it, but the only reason I did was because during the Summer prior to that, my best friend attempted suicide. It was myself who found him, and took him to A&E and spent the weekend in Beaumont with him. He was one of the lads, one of the happiest people going.
It turned out that he had tried to kill himself because he was gay. The stress of keeping it inside, fear of telling his parents and telling us sent him into depression, so he overdosed on 9 different prescription meds. There and then, when he told me why he did it, I told him I was too. And I've been out ever since.
We're both average lads which I guess you'd never have been able to tell were gay. I suppose that makes it harder when you're in Secondary School, because you've to stand there and laugh while all your mates (who are genuinely good people) call each other ******s, maybe slag the one guy in your year who wasn't afraid to be out as a gay person. And to me, it's not they're fault. These same people have been nothing but supportive to me and my friend, and nothing has changed. But secondary school fosters that homophobic 'lad' culture in people who would otherwise not be homophobic. This is why these workshops are necessary, because nobody should ever have to go through what my friend went through. Even "only 6%" of LGBT teens attempting suicide over something they can't change is far too ****ing much when it's completely avoidable.

Sorry to hear that an I hope your friend is doing better.

The bolded bit is why i get irked at people complaining about these types of workshops.

Because LGBT bullying isn't always like other forms of bullying (each can take different forms so I'm not saying its any better or worse before people get animated).

Often, kids don't even intend the language used in a homophobic sense, or realise that they consider playful teasing could be causing a lot of hurt to friends who they dont realise yet or gay. They can use words like "gay" without a homophobic intent, but if your a closeted kid you don't hear it that way.

These workshops are important not just for the kids who are knowingly bullying, but for those "bullying" unintentionally.

Lyaiera

spikeS wrote: »

some strange method of killing yourself if (Lyaiera) they are serious, if you don't end up in critical condition at least you didn't want to die you just want attention

Quoting this so people know how evil you are.

bb1234567

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Well like it or not, there is a difference between a genuine attempt and a cry for help. And a genuine attempt is much more likely to require hospitalization. And while both should be treated seriously, only genuine attempts should be considered when looking at suicide figures specifically, which is what we are doing. Even if you decided to include those attempts, you are still only looking at under 9% of lgbt respondants to the online survey attempting suicide as a result of their orientation, which is still pretty far off the 30-40% reported earlier. And with no comparison to non-lgbt youths it's hard to see if it is really a major issue among irish lgbt youths.

Also, you can stop with the drama. It just makes you look like you can't counter a point.

Why are you trying to downplay the struggles of lgbt youth in ireland? Just because there aren't as widely available irish statistics as there are american ones on the subject doesn't mean the same thing isn't going on here. As an lgbt youth lving in ireland I can tell you life is fcking hard, even if it is 'only' 9% that is still an extraordinarily high number of suicide attempts! if my college class of 80 people were all gay that means approx 8 of them would make 'genuine' attempts to end their life because they're gay, do you not find that incredibly disturbing???

Venus In Furs

Anita Blow wrote: »

For what it's worth, I'll throw my 2c into the discussion over suicide & LGBT people, because I find that people downplaying are largely heterosexual people who don't really understand the toll being gay has on you. Obviously it's fair enough, because they're not gay so haven't experienced it, but I suppose it can be a bit upsetting to read.
I'm in my 20s, and only came out just over a year ago. I'm almost a bit ashamed to say it, but the only reason I did was because during the Summer prior to that, my best friend attempted suicide. It was myself who found him, and took him to A&E and spent the weekend in Beaumont with him. He was one of the lads, one of the happiest people going.
It turned out that he had tried to kill himself because he was gay. The stress of keeping it inside, fear of telling his parents and telling us sent him into depression, so he overdosed on 9 different prescription meds. There and then, when he told me why he did it, I told him I was too. And I've been out ever since.
We're both average lads which I guess you'd never have been able to tell were gay. I suppose that makes it harder when you're in Secondary School, because you've to stand there and laugh while all your mates (who are genuinely good people) call each other ******s, maybe slag the one guy in your year who wasn't afraid to be out as a gay person. And to me, it's not they're fault. These same people have been nothing but supportive to me and my friend, and nothing has changed. But secondary school fosters that homophobic 'lad' culture in people who would otherwise not be homophobic. This is why these workshops are necessary, because nobody should ever have to go through what my friend went through. Even "only 6%" of LGBT teens attempting suicide over something they can't change is far too ****ing much when it's completely avoidable.

My best friend knew from an extremely early age that he was gay. He didn't let on a word throughout secondary school (the 90s) - not a syllable. To anyone. He had girlfriends, posters of women on his bedroom wall, talked about how hot this and that woman was, hung out with the lads... it was simply not an option for him to be who he truly was.
He came out when he was 20, in 1999. He wasn't comfortable about it; we had to keep it a secret (I became friends with him the year before). He didn't tell his family until years later (think it was more a case of them saying they knew to him rather than him actually taking that moment to spell it out to them) and they had no issue with it and he knew they wouldn't have an issue with it, but he just didn't feel comfortable about them knowing.

I know it was hard for him having to harbour this secret for so long though, and not feeling comfortable with e.g. talking about his boyfriends, the way anyone would talk about their partners.

spikeS

Lyaiera wrote: »

Quoting this so people know how evil you are.

It's easy to kill yourself, if you really want it, attention is what most want though

bb1234567

spikeS wrote: »

Helium bag kit if they are serious, if you don't end up in critical condition at least you didn't want to die you just want attention

You have got to be kidding me ?
Like if you genuinely mean that then its just ruined my day to think that some people actually believe this Sometimes I feel like life would be easier if I was dead, but there are many things I also love about life, I could never leave my family behind and I know I would ruin so many of the lives of people close to me if I killed myself
Its not such a black and white issue and honestly that was one of the most insensitive comments Ive ever seen on this forum

spikeS

bb1234567 wrote: »

You have got to be kidding me ?
Like if you genuinely mean that then its just ruined my day to think that some people actually believe this Sometimes I feel like life would be easier if I was dead, but there are many things I also love about life, I could never leave my family behind and I know I would ruin so many of the lives of people close to me if I killed myself
Its not such a black and white issue and honestly that was one of the most insensitive comments Ive ever seen on this forum

You want to live so won't try kill yourself, I am guessing you won't try a fake one for attention either.

bb1234567

spikeS wrote: »

You want to live so won't try kill yourself, I am guessing you won't try a fake one for attention either.

Thats such BS I know a girl who walked out in front of a bus in an attempt to end her life but she survived. Was that for attention yeh? or what about the people who take 50 pills and their parents find them unconscious and get their stomachs pumped?

spikeS

bb1234567 wrote: »

Thats such BS I know a girl who walked out in front of a bus in an attempt to end her life but she survived. Was that for attention yeh? or what about the people who take 50 pills and their parents find them unconscious and get their stomachs pumped?

And I am sure she ended up in critical condition, take pills when you no you will be alone

bb1234567

spikeS wrote: »

And I am sure she ended up in critical condition, take pills when you no you will be alone

Of course she did, what does that have to do with anything? its still a failed suicide attempt

spikeS

bb1234567 wrote: »

Of course she did, what does that have to do with anything? its still a failed suicide attempt

And I said it was not serious if you don't end up in critical condition, she did it was serious not some call for attention

conorh91

I'm sorry to wade in here having not read the entire thread, and probably making a point that has been made and argued a hundred times.

But is it not obvious that the concerned parents of Colaiste Eoin were anticipating the debate might go beyond homophobic bullying, and simply wanted somebody there to give the other side to auxiliary issues, like homosexuality and rights, including the right to marry?

Prior notification of the debate was possibly remitted to parents second-hand, and something got lost in translation.

Does anyone seriously believe the concerned parents wanted a homophobic bully there to defend homophobic bullying?

I would assume that is agreed, but as I say I haven't read the (very long) thread entirely.

floggg

spikeS wrote: »

It's easy to kill yourself, if you really want it, attention is what most want though

For your own sake, just stop.

spikeS

floggg wrote: »

For your own sake, just stop.

It's just attention seekers do a dis service to those that really are suicidal. It makes it harder to know if some really is cause the attention seekers cry wolf so much

bb1234567

spikeS wrote: »

It's just attention seekers do a dis service to those that really are suicidal. It makes it harder to know if some really is cause the attention seekers cry wolf so much

Even if they don't end up in a critical condition people don't just make suicide attempts for the fun of it. Clearly they are going through sh!t and need help, and should be given it. Consider yourself lucky you've never had suicidal thoughts and have some respect for those who do and have to suffer their intensely sh!tty lives

One eyed Jack

floggg wrote: »

I'm going to respond to this somewhat out of sequence to avoid having to repeat myself.

floggg I'm not cutting you short here but for the sake of avoiding getting into anything more serious, I'm going to take a step back from the thread and tbh I'd advise others to do the same for themselves.

I'm not avoiding discussing the issues. It's just that on the internet is sometimes the most inappropriate medium for some of these discussions as none of us here are aware of what's going on in other posters' lives, and I for one don't feel comfortable with the turn this thread is taking.

It's all too easy for discussions like this to get emotive and I don't want to unknowingly or otherwise offend anyone here so I'm stepping back from this thread now.

spikeS

bb1234567 wrote: »

Even if they don't end up in a critical condition people don't just make suicide attempts for the fun of it. Clearly they are going through sh!t and need help, and should be given it. Consider yourself lucky you've never had suicidal thoughts and have some respect for those who do and have to suffer their intensely sh!tty lives

Who said I haven't had the thoughts and don't have my helium tank here waiting, just if I do it it will be done, I would never cry wolf

bb1234567

spikeS wrote: »

Who said I haven't had the thoughts and don't have my helium tank here waiting, just if I do it it will be done, I would never cry wolf

Clearly you've never had suicidal thoughts if you speak about suicidal people with such little respect

spikeS

bb1234567 wrote: »

Clearly you've never had suicidal thoughts if you speak about suicidal people with such little respect

Clearly I have considered it greatly and why I have so little respect for the attention seekers that use it for attention

conorh91

spikeS wrote: »

It's just attention seekers do a dis service to those that really are suicidal. It makes it harder to know if some really is cause the attention seekers cry wolf so much

I actually do think a lot of suicide attempts are cry for attention. In the same way that calling an ambulance is a cry for attention. Except with suicide, the sick person may not have the language to articulate his needs, or cannot access the resources to attend his needs.

There is self-harm that is manifestly not intended to be fatal. But it's better-described as a cry for help. Failure to respond to that call for help is surely where the danger lies.

I'd be interested in knowing how many suicide victims have a history of self harm that deliberately stopped short of being fatal. I'd say it's fcuking huuge.

So calling it attention-seeking, although literally correct, is only attention-seeking in the same way as calling 999 after shattering a limb is 'attention-seeking'. You risk minimizing the self-harm and how healthcare professionals might use it as a warning signal in preventing suicide.

Lyaiera

Information for those in need of a little extra help

Venus In Furs

All these posts from one person about attempted suicides being attention-seeking... looks pretty attention-seeking to me.

oppenheimer1

Daith wrote: »

Now what issues in a LGBT workshop focused on homophobic bullying would some parents object to.

They might have objected to workshops of any kind tbh. Given lost days already to strikes some parents might think that attending this is not the best use of their children's time, especially if they are in an exam year.

When I was in school, I remember attending these kinds of things and they were a total waste of time. The bullies didn't listen, and the event was thought of as a doss class.

bodice ripper

conorh91 wrote: »

I actually do think a lot of suicide attempts are cry for attention. In the same way that calling an ambulance is a cry for attention. Except with suicide, the sick person may not have the language to articulate his needs, or cannot access the resources to attend his needs.

There is self-harm that is manifestly not intended to be fatal. But it's better-described as a cry for help. Failure to respond to that call for help is surely where the danger lies.

I'd be interested in knowing how many suicide victims have a history of self harm that deliberately stopped short of being fatal. I'd say it's fcuking huuge.

So calling it attention-seeking, although literally correct, is only attention-seeking in the same way as calling 999 after shattering a limb is 'attention-seeking'. You risk minimizing the self-harm and how healthcare professionals might use it as a warning signal in preventing suicide.

Word.