Meaningless Statistics in Soccer

764dak

Are Assists in Soccer Overrated?
http://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/assists-soccer-overrated

Why We Shouldn't Put Too Much Value in Assists
http://www.soccerstatistically.com/blog/2011/7/25/why-we-shouldnt-put-much-value-in-assists.html

88% of Stats Are Stupid & Pointless
http://angryofislington.com/2012/03/28/88-of-stats-are-stupid-pointless/

Lies, Damn Lies, And Statistics
http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/?p=4139

My views are that individual stats (especially assists) are pretty useless.

RayCon

Everyone knows 68% of stats are made up on the spot.

Amirani

The New Yorker article is completely misreprenting what assists actually mean. No proper football fan will think that players with most assists are the best or most frequent passers.

But in general, assists aren't a very good predictor of an awful lot. Stats are fine, but people tend to misuse them by painting spurious correlations as facts.

Giggsy11

There are stats that are useful and there are stats which are useless without context.

For example, Pass completion %, Accurate cross %, long passes are all meaningless stats without context.

anncoates

Challenging interminable, meaningless stats on the soccer forum is like going into a Catholic church and challenging the existence of The Creator.

LuckyLloyd

anncoates wrote: »

Challenging interminable, meaningless stats on the soccer forum is like going into a Catholic church and challenging the existence of The Creator.

Is it?

I didn't think there would be a massive pushback on this point tbh. Stats are lazily used across football analysis. If they're used in context with situational variance called out and discussed they can aid understanding of the game, but hardly the be all and end all.

ush

anncoates wrote: »

Challenging interminable, meaningless stats on the soccer forum is like going into a Catholic church and challenging the existence of The Creator.

Oh ye of little faith....

AdamD

Only morons think stats are completely useless. Its all about the context in which they are discussed.

5starpool

You can prove anything with statistics, Bill.

TheDoc

Statistics help a narrative, or compliment a narrative, they are not THE narrative.

Football is loosing it's **** with statistics lately. Take for example Sky Sports News. They have lost the plot, showing stats out their ears, with literally no narrative. And to viewers who don't understand statistics, they get the impression it's the end all and be all.

Statistics are starting to ruin a lot of football discussion and balance. Instead of people watching and seeing a player and developing an opinion on them, they just look at statistics and nothing else.

But it works both ways. Statistics simply have to compliment a narrative, as in the point you are trying to make, they arn't THE point.

TheDoc

Giggsy11 wrote: »

There are stats that are useful and there are stats which are useless without context.

For example, Pass completion %, Accurate cross %, long passes are all meaningless stats without context.

Distance covered is the most meaningless stat I've ever seen to be honest. Wow, you ran X kilometres. How much of that was actually productive?

There has been numerous coaches at top levels across Europe who have discussed stats, and their negative impact. One of the big ones is players padding their stats for distance covered,to make it look like they work hard for the manager.

Most ridiculous stat ever.

El Weirdo

764dak wrote: »

Are Assists in Soccer Overrated?
http://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/assists-soccer-overrated

Why We Shouldn't Put Too Much Value in Assists
http://www.soccerstatistically.com/blog/2011/7/25/why-we-shouldnt-put-much-value-in-assists.html

88% of Stats Are Stupid & Pointless
http://angryofislington.com/2012/03/28/88-of-stats-are-stupid-pointless/

Lies, Damn Lies, And Statistics
http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/?p=4139

My views are that individual stats (especially assists) are pretty useless.

Gbear

One that pisses me off is the "possession in the last 5 minutes" stat.

There's going to be peaks and troughs in possession over the course of the game and taking a 5 minute snapshot tells you precisely **** all.

If you're watching the game you bloody well know that one team has done a bit of attacking for a few minutes.

HalloweenJack

Agree with the posters who've said that stats without context can be fairly useless. Distance covered on it self can be fairly useless but if you're to add passes made and tackles made, it takes on a new life.

I wonder if this interest in stats comes from the FM generation of football fans (and that's not a dig, I'm a massive FM fan) where you have to build success essentially using maths formulas.

Chucky the tree

TheDoc wrote: »

Distance covered is the most meaningless stat I've ever seen to be honest. Wow, you ran X kilometres. How much of that was actually productive?

There has been numerous coaches at top levels across Europe who have discussed stats, and their negative impact. One of the big ones is players padding their stats for distance covered,to make it look like they work hard for the manager.

Most ridiculous stat ever.

Like every stat it can be valuable when used with other stats.

GLaDOS

Anyone who doesn't care about assists clearly isn't playing fantasy football

smileyj1987

AdamD wrote: »

Only morons think stats are completely useless. Its all about the context in which they are discussed.

I do Agree with this and all the stats that are provided all help to paint a picture. I have saw some people say distance covered is a meaningless one but I don't think it is at all.
If a player is working hard for the team it will show this by the amount of ground covered.
The only problem with people is the fact that they seem to try and use stats but use them wrong.
That's the only time I find them useless or annoying !!

Iang87

I dont think they're useless. I agree with the general belief that when used in the correct context they're very helpful.

Blatter

Stats are brilliant. The problem is that a lot of the really complex ones that actually provide excellent insight are withheld by the companies that produce them (Opta, Protozone etc.) for sale to bookmakers and professional gamblers that can afford to buy them.

The mainstream media are definitely behind the times with regards stats in football though. While giving a players goal per game ratio is useful and does tell us plenty about the goalscoring ability of the player, non penalty goals per 90 mins played is a FAR more efficient metric.

CSF

Stats are brilliant. Sometimes the people who quote them are not.

alchemist33

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Agree with the posters who've said that stats without context can be fairly useless. Distance covered on it self can be fairly useless but if you're to add passes made and tackles made, it takes on a new life.

I wonder if this interest in stats comes from the FM generation of football fans (and that's not a dig, I'm a massive FM fan) where you have to build success essentially using maths formulas.

I think it's also blowover from growing interest in sports which lend themselves better to stats, such as baseball and American football.

I've often wondered how they compile the stats. Is there a man in front of a TV with nothing but a red and blue buton to record possession? Does another man have a screen with icons for all the players and he touches one for a completed pass while somebody else covers uncomnpleted passes? It must be mind numbing work.

OwaynOTT

A mixed methods approach would be better. Don't just rely on quantative statistics but use qualitative methods as well, like actually watch the games and players.
And always question stats, where they come from, how they were collected and what the person is trying to say.
All of that is obvious though, so just ignore me if ye want.

Turtwig

There's a saying along the lines of there's no such thing as a meaningless statistic, only a statistic interpreted in a meaningless way. (Or in the case of television, presented to the viewer in a meaningless way.)

Every statistic can be used to tell a story. What's important is that the person interpreting the statistic is both statistically literal and knowledgeable in the field they're applying it in. As seen in general sports punditry that's rarely the case. So we end up with lots of useless mentions of statistics that mean nothing.:(

Kirby

El Weirdo wrote: »

You may laugh but look where his team are in the table.

galwaylad14

I'd agree with the general consensus that stats are useful but need to taken in the correct context and applied properly. I also think soccer is one of the sports where stats are probably least useful, compared to maybe American Football or rugby.

My issue with the assists stat is that you can provide a perfect "assist" and not get any credit for it if the striker can't finish it off but this doesn't change what the player providing the "assist" did. Like you could round 3 guys in the box and play the pass of the season for Emile Heskey to tap in and have him hoof it over the bar and you get no assist. And likewise you could roll a ball 5 yards backwards to Messi on the half way line and have him beat 5 players and score and you get awarded an assist.

A stat like "passes leading to clear cut chances" would be a better indicator and I'm sure this is accounted for somewhere but it doesn't roll of the tongue like assists do.

Mr. Guappa

galwaylad14 wrote: »

I'd agree with the general consensus that stats are useful but need to taken in the correct context and applied properly. I also think soccer is one of the sports where stats are probably least useful, compared to maybe American Football or rugby.

My issue with the assists stat is that you can provide a perfect "assist" and not get any credit for it if the striker can't finish it off but this doesn't change what the player providing the "assist" did. Like you could round 3 guys in the box and play the pass of the season for Emile Heskey to tap in and have him hoof it over the bar and you get no assist. And likewise you could roll a ball 5 yards backwards to Messi on the half way line and have him beat 5 players and score and you get awarded an assist.

A stat like "passes leading to clear cut chances" would be a better indicator and I'm sure this is accounted for somewhere but it doesn't roll of the tongue like assists do.

Any pass to Emile Heskey should really be filed as giving away possession.

That_Guy

Stats can be useful and some of the stats Opta produce can be real "WTF" moments.

Stats that are compiled into meaningless tables such as:

"If Liverpool had scored every attempt that hit the post where would they have finished?"

are utterly pointless and serve no purpose.

El Weirdo

Kirby wrote: »

You may laugh but look where his team are in the table.

Who said I was laughing?

keith16

Germany's 12th man at the World Cup: Big Data

Pighead

Slightly off topic but what is the best livescore site out there. I'm looking for one that updates stats in running eg shots on/off target for each team, possession percentages and stuff like that. I had one a few months ago but can't remember the name of it.

Blatter

Pighead wrote: »

Slightly off topic but what is the best livescore site out there. I'm looking for one that updates stats in running eg shots on/off target for each team, possession percentages and stuff like that. I had one a few months ago but can't remember the name of it.

Whoscored.com

Pighead

Blatter wrote: »

Whoscored.com

Great stuff. That's even better than the one I've used before. Thanks for that.