Considering a Nissan Leaf - sanity check please?!!

feichin

Reading through this thread it seems we should all be changing to electric vehicles immediately.
Some questions if I may, for those that have already taken the plunge.
My current car is a 10 year old corrolla d4d with over 500,000 km on the clock, its going fine but the time for change is fast approaching.
My commute is 100km each way with anything up to 75km most days during the day. There is a fast charge point close to work and I pass a fast charge point at about the 60/40 point on my commute. There are also a couple of charge points in the nearest town.
1. Is this beyond the range of a leaf?
2. Is it possible to do the electric equivilant of a "splash and dash" - ie. on the way home could I pull into the fast charger for 10 /15 minutes to get me home?
3. I've read comments about the affect cold weather can have, how restricting is this, and what effect would this have over an Irish winter?
4. If you judge your distance wrong and run out of power by the side of the road, what are the options? (polite answers only please)
5. How dependable is the usage? ie. driving at between 80 /100 kph on national roads in relatively light traffic could I assume after a period of testing that I will use approx the same % of the battery each way on my commute?
Thanks for taking the time to read, and thanks in advance for any replies.

cros13

feichin wrote: »

My current car is a 10 year old corrolla d4d with over 500,000 km on the clock, its going fine but the time for change is fast approaching.

I had an Avensis D4D 2.0 before/while I had the Leaf (and now I'm on to my second EV with the i3). For a direct comparison, when I ran the numbers for the Leaf vs the Avensis. As cheap to run as diesel Toyotas are, for the same mileage the Leaf was literally 8 times cheaper (on night rate electricity).

feichin wrote: »

There is a fast charge point close to work and I pass a fast charge point at about the 60/40 point on my commute. There are also a couple of charge points in the nearest town.

Make sure that it's a rapid charger if you are going to be doing 200km a day.
Check the map: https://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-map.jsp

feichin wrote: »

1. Is this beyond the range of a leaf?

You'd be right on the line in the winter if you were doing 120km/h or so.
On ordinary national roads doing 80-100km/h you should have 25-50km of spare range depending on weather and how much of a lead foot you have. A good rule of thumb is to have enough range to make the next rapid charger in case your nearest is down for some reason.

feichin wrote: »

2. Is it possible to do the electric equivilant of a "splash and dash" - ie. on the way home could I pull into the fast charger for 10 /15 minutes to get me home?

Yup, pop in to the rapid for 15-20 minutes at lunch or on the way home and you should get from 0-80%. However if you need to go above 80% to reach home note that 80-100% would take another 20 minutes and regularly rapid charging above about 85-90% is not advisable (however if you are on a PCP or a lease I wouldn't worry too much).

feichin wrote: »

3. I've read comments about the affect cold weather can have, how restricting is this, and what effect would this have over an Irish winter?

Irish winters are very mild by comparison to somewhere like Canada. Worst I've seen on the Leaf is about 15% off the range in -5C weather, and that was mostly down to running the heater in the cabin. That's where the heated seats come in, they are one option you absolutely need (all four seats on high uses a 10th of the power vs the main heat pump). The i3 sees no noticeable drop because unlike the Leaf the battery has a thermal management system (heater pad and air cooling).

feichin wrote: »

4. If you judge your distance wrong and run out of power by the side of the road, what are the options? (polite answers only please)

Never happened to me. There are slow chargers everywhere if you get stuck the worst consequence is you may have to spend an hour at one to get home. Nissan also include free recovery anywhere in the EU to the nearest charger if you wish or to home.

I've hit turtle mode (low power output mode, battery below 2.5%) twice, once because three slow chargers in a row were down. The other time I was just 150 meters from home, and chancing it after a long trip .

feichin wrote: »

5. How dependable is the usage? ie. driving at between 80 /100 kph on national roads in relatively light traffic could I assume after a period of testing that I will use approx the same % of the battery each way on my commute?

You will use a fair bit more power at first as you get used to regen braking and managing the power usage of the car. After the first 2 or 3 weeks you'll have it down and usage will be very predictable.

My Dad has my Leaf now and he had most of his usage for his destinations mapped out in his head with the first 10 days. He went from using 80% of battery for his 100km round trip commute on Day 1 to 61% on Day 10.

First thing I did when I got the car was run the battery down to 6% and then circled the charger until I reached "Turtle" (took almost another hour at those low speeds, even running the heater full with the windows open!) to get comfortable with range and figure out power use at each speed.

feichin

feichin wrote: »

My commute is 100km each way with anything up to 75km most days during the day. There is a fast charge point close to work and I pass a fast charge point at about the 60/40 point on my commute. There are also a couple of charge points in the nearest town.
1. Is this beyond the range of a leaf?

Put it this way at 100 Kms you will need to be at a charger of some sort.

I could probably make 110 Kms at 100-110 Kph with calmer weather in Winter but the wind is the greatest killer to range.

You'll need the Leaf with the Heat pump, the SV or SVE trim.

Personally I think 100 kms (each way) is too close to the limit unless you want to restrict yourself to 80-100 Kph max. I would hang on for Gen II or the Opel Bolt in 2 -3 years there might be more models then too.

feichin wrote: »

2. Is it possible to do the electric equivilant of a "splash and dash" - ie. on the way home could I pull into the fast charger for 10 /15 minutes to get me home?

10 -15 mins in milder weather will give you about 30-35% back to the battery.

You don't want to be stopping on the way to and from work. I didn't get your location but if your route includes the Naas fast charger it's a terrible place to get to in peak traffic and the charge point is in the worst location possible, people plug in for free leccy a lot of them are locals who think it;s their personal charger and feck off for an hour or more. I don;t use it when I'm on day shift because it's a busy spot and it's a 50 50 chance I'll get stung waiting for someone. Coming off night shift there's not many about so I charge there but during the day I charge at newlands cross. A gentleman at newlands yesterday heading to Wicklow kindly let me charge, he said he had enough at about 55% to get him to where he was going. This is what it's all about. Use the charger for only what you need and move on.

feichin wrote: »

3. I've read comments about the affect cold weather can have, how restricting is this, and what effect would this have over an Irish winter?

Wind, it's a killer. More than cold or the heater, the heat pump consumes little leccy so it's not really an issue.

feichin wrote: »

4. If you judge your distance wrong and run out of power by the side of the road, what are the options? (polite answers only please)

Only option is to cal and wait for the recovery truck. Which will take you to nearest charge point. Maybe home ? don't know about that .

feichin wrote: »

5. How dependable is the usage? ie. driving at between 80 /100 kph on national roads in relatively light traffic could I assume after a period of testing that I will use approx the same % of the battery each way on my commute?
Thanks for taking the time to read, and thanks in advance for any replies.

When you figure out the worst case then yes it's pretty dependable.

At your long commute you'll without doubt, need to take a leaf for a few days, at the very least two.

My advice is wait for Leaf II or whatever is available with greater range in 2017.

If you take the car to it's limit twice daily and if you loose battery capacity then you will definitely be cutting it far too close for comfort.

You'll be cycling the battery twice daily, this is a lot. And probably deep cycling it also.

And one very important factor, if you get to the fast charger at say 10% you could be waiting 50 mins to get from 10-90%. I wouldn't do this daily. It's not worth your time and if a charger is down or you have to queue.

As highly as I regard the leaf and I really do think it's a brilliant car, I genuinely feel it's not the EV for you.

If Kia import the kia Soul EV then this would work for you it's got decent bit of extra range and the battery is heated in cold weather also.

Get on to Kia Ireland because they decided not to import it because they feel us Irish would only ever be interested in the 1.6 diesel which is BS, Kia Ireland and the dealers want nothing to do with Electric cars because they don't want to have to retool and retrain. Typical lazy attitude.

All they have to do is advertise the Soul EV on the site and have a "register your interest form" .

How are people to know about the soul EV if they won;t tell anyone about it ? Deliberately keeping people in ignorance that's what I say !

feichin

Thanks for the replies, that's what i needed to hear - even if it's not what I wanted to hear. My commute is Kerry / Cork, across the "Cork and Kerry Mountains" so wind would be a regular issue that to be honest I hadn't even thought about. I thought the issue was poorer battery performance in cold weather. Looking at the map there are chargers in most towns and around Cork city but I doubt they are as plentiful as Dublin / Kildare / Meath. so as you say Mad_Lad it's probably a step to far at the moment.

RedorDead

@Benny_Cake and Mad_Lad

You both should inform both Renault Ireland and Kia Ireland of your views. Its great sharing them here too but you would be surprised how quickly you get an answer by posting your experiences on Facebook. About how disinterested renault belgard were in selling you a Zoe Benny (and how you subsequently both a Leaf) and ask why Kia arent importing the Soul EV here Mad_Lad.

You would be surprised how interested brands are in your views.

zzantara

Going back to the original post ,which asked about PCP, be careful about what happens in three years.
PCP only works successfully when in three years you can repeat the process that you go through at the start of the agreement.
This means that you should have at the very least an equal deposit next time around, even though you are getting a guaranteed minimum future value there is no guarantee that your trade in price less the final payment will give you an equal deposit to your present one.
Others on this tread have helped you evaluate the pros and cons of Electric Vehicles, one thing is very certain and that is that this technology is advancing at a great pace, all the range issues that are now giving a lot of people doubts could really put them off Leaf's, if more acceptable Models are available at that time.
If you take the option of "just hand the. Car back" you are left with no equity/deposit for your next Car ,you either cough up a deposit again or live with higher repayments.
I have been in the sales end of the Motor Trade for over 40 years and there is no way that I would "put my B*lls on the line for the residual value of a Car in three years time that has doubts as to it's value today, it is virtually certain that the obvious problems will be overcome either by Nissan or their competitors.
Many Nissan Dealers have opted out of selling Leaf's today,that speaks volumes for their confidence in the product.

Another point regarding EV's, at the moment the running costs are very low compared to a Petrol equivalent, it is common knowledge that the Duty/VAT on Petrol is a major Revenue generator , if a large number of drivers convert to Electric it is very unlikely that it will not be taxed in some way to recover/make up for lost Revenue.
The common Motor Trade opinion is that the Multinational Manufacturers will
move towards Hydrogen and in the end it's they and not Governments that will dictate where this thing goes.

Benny_Cake

zzantara wrote: »

Going back to the original post ,which asked about PCP, be careful about what happens in three years.
PCP only works successfully when in three years you can repeat the process that you go through at the start of the agreement.
This means that you should have at the very least an equal deposit next time around, even though you are getting a guaranteed minimum future value there is no guarantee that your trade in price less the final payment will give you an equal deposit to your present one.
Others on this tread have helped you evaluate the pros and cons of Electric Vehicles, one thing is very certain and that is that this technology is advancing at a great pace, all the range issues that are now giving a lot of people doubts could really put them off Leaf's, if more acceptable Models are available at that time.
If you take the option of "just hand the. Car back" you are left with no equity/deposit for your next Car ,you either cough up a deposit again or live with higher repayments.
I have been in the sales end of the Motor Trade for over 40 years and there is no way that I would "put my B*lls on the line for the residual value of a Car in three years time that has doubts as to it's value today, it is virtually certain that the obvious problems will be overcome either by Nissan or their competitors.
Many Nissan Dealers have opted out of selling Leaf's today,that speaks volumes for their confidence in the product.

Another point regarding EV's, at the moment the running costs are very low compared to a Petrol equivalent, it is common knowledge that the Duty/VAT on Petrol is a major Revenue generator , if a large number of drivers convert to Electric it is very unlikely that it will not be taxed in some way to recover/make up for lost Revenue.
The common Motor Trade opinion is that the Multinational Manufacturers will
move towards Hydrogen and in the end it's they and not Governments that will dictate where this thing goes.

Agreed about PCP, I'll be putting aside some money every month for the duration, that will go towards a deposit on my next car. I've no idea where things will be at in 3 years. Worst comes to the worst I'd go back to a fuel efficient ICE, hope it doesn't come to that though.

Regarding hydrogen: from what I've read it's been the next big thing from decades at the stage. Fuel cells small enough to fit in cars are crazy expensive, from what I understand Toyota is making a big loss on every Mirai sold. Not to mention the huge cost of rolling out a refuelling infrastructure and the fact that producing hydrogen is fairly carbon intensive (currently). If these problems could be surmounted - great.

feichin

feichin wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, that's what i needed to hear - even if it's not what I wanted to hear. My commute is Kerry / Cork, across the "Cork and Kerry Mountains" so wind would be a regular issue that to be honest I hadn't even thought about. I thought the issue was poorer battery performance in cold weather. Looking at the map there are chargers in most towns and around Cork city but I doubt they are as plentiful as Dublin / Kildare / Meath. so as you say Mad_Lad it's probably a step to far at the moment.

I'm sorry, I couldn't recommend the Leaf to you, as good as it is I know it wouldn't suit you. But by 2017/18 you should not have any issues at all or if Kia import the Soul EV you'll be sorted. It's tested in the United states as having 100 miles @ 62 mph @ 20 deg C. That's the best of any affordable EV available today !

If you only travel on 80 Kph roads you could probably get away with it but hills are another range killer I forgot about. Yes you get regen on the way down hills/mountains but you'll use a lot more to get up.

The Leaf is so efficient that pretty much anything will effect range .

Detroit are promising 200 miles real range with the GM/Opel Bolt by 2017/18 but like the Ampera/Volt Opel Ireland might decide not to import it.

Nissan Ireland seem to be the only ones keen on selling an EV and I have to give a lot of credit to Paul in Barlow Nissan in Kilkenny, he was really sound and went well above his duty to sell me the leaf and he even drove to Carlow Town to give me the loaner Leaf which he didn't have to do at all on two occasions in the evening when he should have been at home. There should be more like him. I can guarantee I would not have got the same treatment from Windsor Belgard and as a result they did not get a sale from me.

cros13

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Regarding hydrogen: from what I've read it's been the next big thing from decades at the stage. Fuel cells small enough to fit in cars are crazy expensive, from what I understand Toyota is making a big loss on every Mirai sold. Not to mention the huge cost of rolling out a refuelling infrastructure and the fact that producing hydrogen is fairly carbon intensive (currently). If these problems could be surmounted - great.

As an engineer who has actually worked with hydrogen fuel cells, I can honestly say that personal transportation is about the last place a fuel cell would make sense. H2 is a bitch to work with, and there are massive safety issues. Sitting on a tank of compressed explosive gas that actively eats through seals and will make its way through air tight gaps or stress damage is not a good plan.

An in the end, what do you get? A fuel cell vehicle is just an inefficient EV that's expensive to build, expensive to run and builds in a number of difficult engineering problems with both the car and the astoundingly expensive infrastructure required to support it. It doesn't offer any range increase over BEVs, it takes all of 10-15 minutes quicker to charge (something that will be addressed by battery technology in the next 5 years anyway) and you can't charge at home without electrolysis (think €20,000 euro and pissing away 50% of the energy you could have charged a battery with).

I can see a very bright future for some fuel cell technologies like natural gas fuel cells for medium scale fixed power generation and MicroCHP systems for homes. I also wouldn't be surprised to see HGV's adopt combined BEV and fuel cell systems in 15 or 20 years time.

I'm sorry but with Lithium Ion cells falling in price so fast that we're at what were the predicted prices for 2020 today and with several new battery technologies already in commercial sampling I see no future for FCVs. In less than 5 years, Li cells will be below $70/kWh and 350-500km range EVs will be cheaper than the equivalent petrol vehicle without tax breaks or grant aid.

RedorDead

RedorDead wrote: »

@Benny_Cake and Mad_Lad

You both should inform both Renault Ireland and Kia Ireland of your views. Its great sharing them here too but you would be surprised how quickly you get an answer by posting your experiences on Facebook. About how disinterested renault belgard were in selling you a Zoe Benny (and how you subsequently both a Leaf) and ask why Kia arent importing the Soul EV here Mad_Lad.

You would be surprised how interested brands are in your views.

In fairness to Renault (Autoimage) Carlow Town, the salesman (sorry, can't remember his name) seemed pretty keen on selling the Zoe. It was a grand car but not to my taste. But It would be an incredible car to someone who is used to Renault , the electric power train is miles better than any ICE Renault would ever stick in a car of that size.

I did ask Kia Ireland and gave them an earfull on why they won't import the Soul EV to Ireland , their excuse was that they feel they need 100 orders minimum to make it worth while and they haven't got that amount and probably won't. And they felt Irish buyers wouldn't buy it over the crappy 1.6 tractor Diesel.

I did of course point out that due to the lack of advertisement, how are Irish people to be aware of the EV Soul to even consider to order it. I asked why wasn't it advertised on the Irish website with a "register your interest" like Nissan had for the leaf. I got no answer so I said if ye wanted to sell it in the first place ye would advertise it.

zzantara

zzantara wrote: »

Going back to the original post ,which asked about PCP, be careful about what happens in three years.
PCP only works successfully when in three years you can repeat the process that you go through at the start of the agreement.
This means that you should have at the very least an equal deposit next time around, even though you are getting a guaranteed minimum future value there is no guarantee that your trade in price less the final payment will give you an equal deposit to your present one.

PCP is great for those who want to change their car every 3 years. I don't intend keeping the leaf beyond 3 years so it was a no brainer for me, including the fact my monthly payments are 450 PM compared to over 700 for a full Loan over the same 3 years. Sure I'd own it after the 3 years but that's the point, I don't want to because I know EV's will be around in 3 years with a lot more range.

zzantara wrote: »

Others on this tread have helped you evaluate the pros and cons of Electric Vehicles, one thing is very certain and that is that this technology is advancing at a great pace, all the range issues that are now giving a lot of people doubts could really put them off Leaf's, if more acceptable Models are available at that time.

I drive a leaf 133-140 daily, a 10-15 min fast charge gives me more range than I need. It's miles better than any petrol or diesel of equivalent power and I wouldn't have been happy with petrol or diesel again, not even hybrid.

zzantara wrote: »

If you take the option of "just hand the. Car back" you are left with no equity/deposit for your next Car ,you either cough up a deposit again or live with higher repayments.
I have been in the sales end of the Motor Trade for over 40 years and there is no way that I would "put my B*lls on the line for the residual value of a Car in three years time that has doubts as to it's value today, it is virtually certain that the obvious problems will be overcome either by Nissan or their competitors.

No one is going to just hand the car back. If people do their research there should be no problems in the future. PCP is great if you want to change every 3 years. IF you you want to own a car and drive it for 5 years then that's fine but I see no benefit in this either by letting the value of the car fade over 5 years compared to 3 years.

zzantara wrote: »

Many Nissan Dealers have opted out of selling Leaf's today,that speaks volumes for their confidence in the product.

Not really, a lot of dealers felt that in their region there wouldn;t be many interested in the Leaf and only want the tractor diesel so they felt it wasn't worth re tooling the workshop or training technicians.

Another point regarding EV's, at the moment the running costs are very low compared to a Petrol equivalent, it is common knowledge that the Duty/VAT on Petrol is a major Revenue generator , if a large number of drivers convert to Electric it is very unlikely that it will not be taxed in some way to recover/make up for lost Revenue.[/QUOTE]

Electricity is regulated, there can never be the same tax applied to the electricity because companies would go bust. You can also install wind and solar pv.

zzantara wrote: »

The common Motor Trade opinion is that the Multinational Manufacturers will
move towards Hydrogen and in the end it's they and not Governments that will dictate where this thing goes.

Hydrogen will never be a reality, perhaps in commercial use until batteries become good enough for HGV's but for the average motorist batteries will be so good in a few years no one will care about hydrogen.

Extraction hydrogen is a hugely energy intensive task and very inefficient. It's much more efficient to use that wasted energy to charge batteries.

There is no Hydrogen Economy and no hydrogen stations or very few . We have an electricity infrastructure already and people can charge at home over night.

peposhi

cros13 wrote: »

I had an Avensis D4D 2.0 before/while I had the Leaf (and now I'm on to my second EV with the i3). For a direct comparison, when I ran the numbers for the Leaf vs the Avensis. As cheap to run as diesel Toyotas are, for the same mileage the Leaf was literally 8 times cheaper (on night rate electricity).

Croc13, would you buy a Leaf with an extended range as a 3rd EV in a years time to replace you second EV? It is interesting to hear what is your opinion on the Leaf vs i3 subject, disregarding the price factor...

cros13

peposhi wrote: »

Croc13, would you buy a Leaf with an extended range as a 3rd EV in a years time to replace you second EV? It is interesting to hear what is your opinion on the Leaf vs i3 subject, disregarding the price factor...

The i3 rEx was an opportunity for me to go from two cars down to one. I sold the Avensis and gave the Leaf to my Dad as a retirement gift.

I did have a deposit down for a model S at one point but the move from VRT exemption to the €5000 credit combined with the €10-20k increase in price for the right hand drive model S over the standard european prices put paid to that.

If you disregard the price the i3 is clearly the better EV vs the Leaf. The lower weight means that even with a smaller battery and 60% more powerful motor it exceeds the Leafs range in the city. Although at motorway speeds the i3's range is just a touch lower than the Leaf due to comparatively poor aerodynamics. An i3 is a heck of a lot of fun to drive, and driving like an idiot doesn't seem to have an impact on range to the same extent as on the Leaf.

There's more interior space in the i3 even though it's a smaller car. And the telematics systems actually works reliably unlike carwings. Proper navigation and a DAB radio as standard is also great.

The charging infrastructure for the Leaf is a lot more reliable. The multi-standard chargers have a lot of problems with the CCS vehicles. Leaf owners also have a lot more rapid chargers to choose from. The Dublin area only has two CCS units, one a blanchardstown (please stop parking at this charger if you don't need to charge FFS) and one in Dun Laoghaire. Nissan also made a smart decision putting the charge connectors on the front of the leaf. At the CCS chargers only one of the two parking spots can be used by an i3 because the charge port is on the side and the cable won't stretch.

The Leaf is a car that was built to make ICE drivers comfortable with driving an EV. The i3 is unapologetically an EV through and through.

But... none of this matters for the average buyer. The base i3 is €12,000 more than the base Leaf. The Leaf is a fun car that saves you a lot of money. The i3 is an even more fun car but costs enough to wipe out your saving for the first 3-4 years. And if you go for the rEx, that's another €10k and then you go into the options list and things get even more expensive...

The I3 could have been a hell of a lot better than it is. All BMW did was stuff an engine in instead of a proper battery. What they should have done was make the I3 a lot cheaper without the carbon because in reality it makes little difference to range for the price and throwing in a smaller battery than the Leaf doesn't help either.

Even Kia have a 30 kwh in the Soul EV which has a real 100 miles range at 100 Kph.

What they should have done is add a larger battery to the I3 no question, it probably would have even made it cheaper in Ireland than the Rex because of the VRT.

They could also have made a 3 or 5 series full ev with a 60-80 Kwh battery.

There is good reason though for the I3 to cost what it does and that is to prevent as many people buying it as possible because the German car makers really don't want to build EV's. I don't car how good it is to drive or what gadgets it has it is not worth 40 odd K for the Rex.

Benny_Cake

Deleted User wrote: »

The I3 could have been a hell of a lot better than it is. All BMW did was stuff an engine in instead of a proper battery. What they should have done was make the I3 a lot cheaper without the carbon because in reality it makes little difference to range for the price and throwing in a smaller battery than the Leaf doesn't help either.

Even Kia have a 30 kwh in the Soul EV which has a real 100 miles range at 100 Kph.

What they should have done is add a larger battery to the I3 no question, it probably would have even made it cheaper in Ireland than the Rex because of the VRT.

They could also have made a 3 or 5 series full ev with a 60-80 Kwh battery.

There is good reason though for the I3 to cost what it does and that is to prevent as many people buying it as possible because the German car makers really don't want to build EV's. I don't car how good it is to drive or what gadgets it has it is not worth 40 odd K for the Rex.

I think if BMW didn't want people to buy the i3, then they wouldn't be selling it here, or they would be doing what some manufacturers do (such as Ford) and manufacture a few hundred simply to qualify for sales in California. Regarding price, it is a BMW, you're going to pay a premium on that basis alone.

The i3 is definitely a unique looking car and I get the feeling that BMW put a fair amount of effort into the design. The battery that's in it plus the range extender would probably suit a lot of people with deeper pockets and lingering worries about going electric.

Benny_Cake

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I think if BMW didn't want people to buy the i3, then they wouldn't be selling it here, or they would be doing what some manufacturers do (such as Ford) and manufacture a few hundred simply to qualify for sales in California. Regarding price, it is a BMW, you're going to pay a premium on that basis alone.

The i3 is definitely a unique looking car and I get the feeling that BMW put a fair amount of effort into the design. The battery that's in it plus the range extender would probably suit a lot of people with deeper pockets and lingering worries about going electric.

BMW are selling the I3 world wide to gain as much of the R & D costs back they can.

Because of this carbon credit thing in Europe and the U.S they need the I3 in order to produce their big Engine cars and so the I3 was born, E-Golf etc and it doesn't matter that they have only 70-80 miles range , they are not obliged to make electrics with greater range and they don't really care because they're making billions from ICE sales.

The I3 is a nice car, unusual and I'm not sure I'm a fan of the way the doors open in the rear.

People also need to know about the power restriction in Rex mode when the battery is depleted.

http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-guide-to-reduced-power-operation-range-expectations/

quote from this site:

https://transportevolved.com/2014/12/11/bmw-training-manual-details-expect-i3-rex-reduced-performance/

"Does this make the BMW i3 REx a poor choice? No, but anyone considering the BMW i3 REx should accept that the range-extending engine isn’t any more suited to longer-distance, no-stop trips than a large Range Rover SUV is suited to life as a delivery vehicle in Manhattan."

"But if you’re looking for a car that can run in electric-only mode for most of the week and travel long-distance at the weekend without power restrictions on gasoline, you may want to look at other options like the Chevrolet Volt, Mistubishi Outlander PHEV, or Ford C-Max Energi instead."

On that basis it's worth noting that we have a particularly good fast charge network in Ireland unlike Germany and the USA where the Rex version might work as a emergency way of getting to the next QC point. In Ireland the normal Battery version should take you to most places in Ireland at this point in time.

The Rex version I would find annoying with reduced power on the motorway or hill climbing or trying to over take. I'd rather stop at a fast charger. + I don't want to carry around the weight of an engine I'd rarely need just to get my mind around the range anxiety thing. In order to do that we drive the Diesel the odd really long trip !

If I were intending spending 40 K on an EV or whatever PM on PCP then I'd much rather wait until the New affordable Tesla comes out, GM/Opel Bolt and the New leaf. I'd rather pay for more battery range. The Leaf II and Bold should cost a lot less than 40 K too !

The Leaf is more than good enough for me now, it does 99% of my driving with a 10 min QC to do 85 miles per day (at decent speeds), I could get away with a bit less on the QC but don't want to arrive home with a very low battery every day.

We're down in Cork/Kerry for the weekend and took the Diesel, I couldn't be bothered doing it in the Leaf and I need to keep the mileage down for the contract.

I really hate driving the diesel compared to the Leaf, really, diesel manual cars are just absolutely horrible to drive !!!

peposhi

cros13 wrote: »

The i3 rEx was an opportunity for me to go from two cars down to one. I sold the Avensis and gave the Leaf to my Dad as a retirement gift.

I did have a deposit down for a model S at one point but the move from VRT exemption to the €5000 credit combined with the €10-20k increase in price for the right hand drive model S over the standard european prices put paid to that.

If you disregard the price the i3 is clearly the better EV vs the Leaf. The lower weight means that even with a smaller battery and 60% more powerful motor it exceeds the Leafs range in the city. Although at motorway speeds the i3's range is just a touch lower than the Leaf due to comparatively poor aerodynamics. An i3 is a heck of a lot of fun to drive, and driving like an idiot doesn't seem to have an impact on range to the same extent as on the Leaf.

There's more interior space in the i3 even though it's a smaller car. And the telematics systems actually works reliably unlike carwings. Proper navigation and a DAB radio as standard is also great.

The charging infrastructure for the Leaf is a lot more reliable. The multi-standard chargers have a lot of problems with the CCS vehicles. Leaf owners also have a lot more rapid chargers to choose from. The Dublin area only has two CCS units, one a blanchardstown (please stop parking at this charger if you don't need to charge FFS) and one in Dun Laoghaire. Nissan also made a smart decision putting the charge connectors on the front of the leaf. At the CCS chargers only one of the two parking spots can be used by an i3 because the charge port is on the side and the cable won't stretch.

The Leaf is a car that was built to make ICE drivers comfortable with driving an EV. The i3 is unapologetically an EV through and through.

But... none of this matters for the average buyer. The base i3 is €12,000 more than the base Leaf. The Leaf is a fun car that saves you a lot of money. The i3 is an even more fun car but costs enough to wipe out your saving for the first 3-4 years. And if you go for the rEx, that's another €10k and then you go into the options list and things get even more expensive...

I really and truly think BMW made sure the car stands out. Design wise - it is immaculate. Price wise - definitely not intended for a mass production - BMW wanted to be in the EV game and still keep the sense of being unique. As we all know there's market for everyone out there.

I'd love to drive one and compare the two of them myself.

I absolutely love driving my Leaf despite the range anxiety every now and then and driving an ICE is more and more unpleasant... Last time i felt it was yesterday when my wife took the Leaf for a day long spin and left me with the ICE...

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

BMW are selling the I3 world wide to gain as much of the R & D costs back they can.

The margin on the i3 isn't that big. Better to think of the i3 as part of the development program, rather than the end product. It's a continuation of the Mini-E and ActiveE programs, but a lot more polished and with the option of purchase.

Deleted User wrote: »

Because of this carbon credit thing in Europe and the U.S they need the I3 in order to produce their big Engine cars and so the I3 was born, E-Golf etc and it doesn't matter that they have only 70-80 miles range , they are not obliged to make electrics with greater range and they don't really care because they're making billions from ICE sales.

BMW has been pulling engineers and funding from ICE development. They are more committed to EVs than any traditional manufacturer bar Nissan.

Deleted User wrote: »

The I3 is a nice car, unusual and I'm not sure I'm a fan of the way the doors open in the rear.

People also need to know about the power restriction in Rex mode when the battery is depleted.

That issue doesn't really impact European i3s. To get more CARB credits the US i3 is not permitted to turn on the rEx until the battery is on 6%. The european i3s can turn the rEx on anywhere below 75%. Realistically that means range is not limited and you can get up and over any mountain range this side of the Himalayas without depleting the battery enough to limit motor power. Several of the UK owners have done non-stop trips to the south of France on rEx power without issue.

Deleted User wrote: »

On that basis it's worth noting that we have a particularly good fast charge network in Ireland unlike Germany and the USA where the Rex version might work as a emergency way of getting to the next QC point. In Ireland the normal Battery version should take you to most places in Ireland at this point in time.

More than half of the multi-standard chargers on the eCars network that I've tried have failed to charge my car. I've had three chargers in a row fail to charge. And repairs are slow, Roscrea CCS has been down since January.

If eCars improve the CCS network then I don't disagree. But that's not where we are now.

Deleted User wrote: »

If I were intending spending 40 K on an EV or whatever PM on PCP then I'd much rather wait until the New affordable Tesla comes out, GM/Opel Bolt and the New leaf. I'd rather pay for more battery range. The Leaf II and Bold should cost a lot less than 40 K too !

But none of those will be out until the end of next year at the very earliest.

Deleted User wrote: »

I really hate driving the diesel compared to the Leaf, really, diesel manual cars are just absolutely horrible to drive !!!

+1

Dexter1979

cros13 wrote: »

More than half of the multi-standard chargers on the eCars network that I've tried have failed to charge my car. I've had three chargers in a row fail to charge. And repairs are slow, Roscrea CCS has been down since January

The multi standard chargers have been very temperamental for my Zoe. They can't seem to handle a warm battery at all. Zoe might pause the charge to spin up the fans or change charge rate and the multi standard ones are prone to fail then. It's like the time out and stop the charge before the car has a chance to restart it. The DBT and normal SCPs don't have any such issues.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

BMW has been pulling engineers and funding from ICE development. They are more committed to EVs than any traditional manufacturer bar Nissan.

That's a tiny portion of their capital being spent on electrics. Same for the Volkswagen Group.

If BMW were as committed to electrics then they would have a 3 or 5 Series as good as the Model S, this is BMW for God's sake and if the I3 is the best they can come up with they should be ashamed, not running the I3 down because it is a good EV but it could have had a lot more range.

cros13 wrote: »

That issue doesn't really impact European i3s. To get more CARB credits the US i3 is not permitted to turn on the rEx until the battery is on 6%. The european i3s can turn the rEx on anywhere below 75%. Realistically that means range is not limited and you can get up and over any mountain range this side of the Himalayas without depleting the battery enough to limit motor power. Several of the UK owners have done non-stop trips to the south of France on rEx power without issue.

I didn't know the difference with the U.S and E.U I3 in relation to the power loss, thanks for the clarification. You still have control over if you want to use EV only or not though ?

cros13 wrote: »

More than half of the multi-standard chargers on the eCars network that I've tried have failed to charge my car. I've had three chargers in a row fail to charge. And repairs are slow, Roscrea CCS has been down since January.

If eCars improve the CCS network then I don't disagree. But that's not where we are now.

Another reason I chose the leaf over any CCS car. This serves the E.U and U.S car makers right, there was nothing wrong with the ChaDeMo standard what so ever and just because it was a Japanese standard the U.S and E.U car makers decided not to use it. ChaDeMo II is capable of 110 Kw why they had to have a multiple standard is beyond me. Same with Zoe, madness, Zoe has a terrific on-board charger but it is causing problems with the AC charge points.

If it's not broken, why fix it ?

I'm happy with my Leaf purchase, the value for money was a lot better than the I3/ E-Golf and the CCS standard turns me off TBH.

ChaDeMo is to be phased out by I think 2020 but I doubt that will happen !

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

If BMW were as committed to electrics then they would have a 3 or 5 Series as good as the Model S, this is BMW for God's sake and if the I3 is the best they can come up with they should be ashamed, not running the I3 down because it is a good EV but it could have had a lot more range.

BMW got a shock when the Model S came out. They bought one to teardown. It takes 5-6 years to bring a CFRP bodied car to market. They had the i3 in the pipeline already as a series hybrid so it became their first EV by default. I spoke to one of the BMW senior managers when I was in Bavaria last september. He said they expect to have a full BEV to compete with the Model S on the road in four years.

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't know the difference with the U.S and E.U I3 in relation to the power loss, thanks for the clarification. You still have control over if you want to use EV only or not though ?

So, How it works is from 100% to 75% SoC the rEx cannot be turned on and you are forced to EV only mode. From 75% you can optionally tell the car to maintain your current level of charge using the rEx by ticking a box in the settings (which you can, assign to a physical button on the dash). If you reduce your draw on the battery (say by dropping to a slow speed, or regen braking down a hill) the rEx motor turns off and restarts when the power drawn increases. The hold charge option is automatically forced on when you reach 6% SoC.

US i3s have no driver control over the rEx and the rEx only turns on when SoC reaches 6%. If you are going full motorway speed up an incline for example, 6% is not enough of a buffer to maintain a full power supply to the motor, and that's where the issue arises. BMW's fix in the US is to use the GPS to determine elevation and speed limits along your route and turn on the rEx a little earlier if needed.

But the european i3's don't have a problem because if it's 250km to the next charger you just turn on hold charge at 75% until the charger is within you pure electric range.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm happy with my Leaf purchase, the value for money was a lot better than the I3/ E-Golf and the CCS standard turns me off TBH.

I don't know what manner of idiot would buy the e-golf. They want €2000 more than the base i3 but it's less well specced and the battery raises the floor height enough that I can't fit in the drivers seat.

Deleted User wrote: »

ChaDeMo is to be phased out by I think 2020 but I doubt that will happen !

You are probably right, the Norwegians will kick up a fuss. It will be to the detriment of EV adoption though. ChaDeMo is a terrible rapid charge system. The connectors manage to be both massive and fragile, They can carry less power than CCS (62.5kW vs 90kW) and the communications protocol is a pain in the arse, whereas CCS uses HomePlug GreenPhy. The two-plug model is a bit of a pain, and the average citizen's eyes glaze over when they are told that there are two different plugs for different situations.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

He said they expect to have a full BEV to compete with the Model S on the road in four years.

Shame on them taking so long !

cros13 wrote: »

So, How it works is from 100% to 75% SoC the rEx cannot be turned on and you are forced to EV only mode. From 75% you can optionally tell the car to maintain your current level of charge using the rEx by ticking a box in the settings (which you can, assign to a physical button on the dash). If you reduce your draw on the battery (say by dropping to a slow speed, or regen braking down a hill) the rEx motor turns off and restarts when the power drawn increases. The hold charge option is automatically forced on when you reach 6% SoC.

It has an engine so I don't like the Rex, to me it's not an EV ! :P

cros13 wrote: »

US i3s have no driver control over the rEx and the rEx only turns on when SoC reaches 6%. If you are going full motorway speed up an incline for example, 6% is not enough of a buffer to maintain a full power supply to the motor, and that's where the issue arises. BMW's fix in the US is to use the GPS to determine elevation and speed limits along your route and turn on the rEx a little earlier if needed.

It does seem a bit mental the U.S I3 owners don't have as much control over when the battery or engine is used.

cros13 wrote: »

But the european i3's don't have a problem because if it's 250km to the next charger you just turn on hold charge at 75% until the charger is within you pure electric range.

This is where the Leaf suits me best because the ChaDeMo coverage is good and I don't have to rely on a generator for backup when 10 mins gets me home.

cros13 wrote: »

I don't know what manner of idiot would buy the e-golf. They want €2000 more than the base i3 but it's less well specced and the battery raises the floor height enough that I can't fit in the drivers seat.

The E-Golf could have been a lot better but VW don't really want to sell electrics as proven with the E-Golf !

cros13 wrote: »

You are probably right, the Norwegians will kick up a fuss. It will be to the detriment of EV adoption though. ChaDeMo is a terrible rapid charge system. The connectors manage to be both massive and fragile, They can carry less power than CCS (62.5kW vs 90kW) and the communications protocol is a pain in the arse, whereas CCS uses HomePlug GreenPhy. The two-plug model is a bit of a pain, and the average citizen's eyes glaze over when they are told that there are two different plugs for different situations.

ChaDeMo II is capable of 110 Kw and the plug is less awkward.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

It has an engine so I don't like the Rex, to me it's not an EV ! :P

I really wanna respect your religious beliefs.... but can't we all just get along? :P

Deleted User wrote: »

This is where the Leaf suits me best because the ChaDeMo coverage is good and I don't have to rely on a generator for backup when 10 mins gets me home.

Sure, I'm not arguing that ChaDeMo has better coverage at the moment. But at the moment on EV power alone (assuming the chargers are working) if I go west I can get to Galway, or if I go east I can get to Osnabrück. However if I want to go south I can only reach Arklow or north I can only reach Dundalk.

eCars have correctly assumed that CCS car owners only ever travel west or east, and that Belfast, Cork and Limerick are far too plebeian for the BMW and VW EVs of this world.

Deleted User wrote: »

ChaDeMo II is capable of 110 Kw and the plug is less awkward.

Pity none of the existing chargers or cars are upgradable to ChaDeMo II.
The real advantage CCS has isn't just high power output high cost rapid chargers, it's ~€5000 24/25kw DC fast chargers that can run on existing single phase, are compatible with current cars and can still charge 18-20kWh in about 40 minutes. Like this:

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

I really wanna respect your religious beliefs.... but can't we all just get along? :P

Sure, when you get rid of your addiction to petrol !

cros13 wrote: »

Sure, I'm not arguing that ChaDeMo has better coverage at the moment. But at the moment on EV power alone (assuming the chargers are working) if I go west I can get to Galway, or if I go east I can get to Osnabrück. However if I want to go south I can only reach Arklow or north I can only reach Dundalk.

Not sure what you're saying, is this because of the lack of CCS ? You can pretty much cover the whole Island with ChaDeMo.

cros13 wrote: »

eCars have correctly assumed that CCS car owners only ever travel west or east, and that Belfast, Cork and Limerick are far too plebeian for the BMW and VW EVs of this world.

I think their plan is to upgrade all the chargers to the new triple head units, perhaps what they'll do is remove the old ChaDeMo units and install them beside the newer ones in the busiest locations ?

cros13 wrote: »

Pity none of the existing chargers or cars are upgradable to ChaDeMo II.
The real advantage CCS has isn't just high power output high cost rapid chargers, it's ~€5000 24/25kw DC fast chargers that can run on existing single phase, are compatible with current cars and can still charge 18-20kWh in about 40 minutes. Like this:

I think you can have 10-25 kw ChaDeMo also, this shouldn't be an issue really. DC is the way forward, not AC.

But yes all the AC points could have been 20 Kw CHaDeMo, just imagine the benefit ?

After 50% the charge rate is only around 50 Kw in the Leaf.

One thing though is that with Leaf II and other EV's with larger batteries at that time, if it has twice the range then people will stay twice as long at the charge points leaching as much free electricity as possible, this will be a nightmare so they will need to have more powerful chargers and/or a lot more.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure what you're saying, is this because of the lack of CCS ? You can pretty much cover the whole Island with ChaDeMo.

Yup, a lot of gaps in the CCS network. For example the only CCS location between Dublin and Belfast is in Belfast itself. There are six ChaDeMo locations on the M1 in the Republic alone and no working CCS locations (because Dublin Airport CCS has never worked). There are two major gaps on the M8 to Cork. and the M9 has nothing from Naas (which isn't working) to the far side of the Waterford ring road. Dublin to Galway has Kilbeggan and Ballinasloe which leaves you very low on either end of the journey. Dublin to Limerick the only working chargepoint is Portlaoise (Roscrea has been down since February, Naas down since the end of March).

So for CCS BEVs the only other city that can be reached (in theory) is Galway.

This is our rapid charging "network":
http://ccs-map.eu/

Deleted User wrote: »

I think their plan is to upgrade all the chargers to the new triple head units, perhaps what they'll do is remove the old ChaDeMo units and install them beside the newer ones in the busiest locations ?

As far as I understand it, all new installations will be the efacec multi-standard units, and select busy locations will have a 2nd rapid added in addition to the existing multi-standard (This has happened in dun laoghaire, although the SGTE unit there is down for maintenance). Locations are due to be confirmed in the next month or so.

I can't understand why the recently installed fast charger in Carlow Town has no CCS ?

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't understand why the recently installed fast charger in Carlow Town has no CCS ?

Is that the one beside the mcdonalds?

I think it was the last of the ChaDeMo units eCars had on order. AFAIR it was installed before the first of the multi-standard.

No it's in in the Supermac's on the OLD N9 Dublin Road.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's in in the Supermac's on the OLD N9 Dublin Road.

Sorry, that's the one I meant. I don't know the difference between supermacs and mcdonalds.

Lemlin

Have seen a lot of electric cars in recent weeks so decided I'd look into this. Found the thread here and hoped I'd get some help. My wife and I currently have two cars - one is an '08 Ford Mondeo which we use for most trips. Trouble is, diesel costs, tax and maintenance are driving us crazy. For example, in the last three years we have had to replace the timing belt in 2013, the fuel pump in 2014 and the clutch earlier this year. In fact, our garage man is now laughing that we can drive the car into the ground because we've replaced all the expensive parts. Our other car is a '98 Micra that we're looking into replacing and this is where the scrappage scheme with Nissan interested me.

Previously I wasn't big into the idea of buying a new car that we'd lose value on straight away, then again I'm not mad on going for a used car after we've had to replace so much on this car - therefore a Leaf that would be brand new but save us money in the long run sounds a good option to me.

My wife and I both work in the same place which is about 15km max from our home. I'd say our commute, with dropping the kids to creche on the way, is about 40km max each way. The only other driving we'd regularly do is the odd trip to my wife's homeplace which is 50kms away and then trips to Blanchardstown the odd weekend which is 106km away. I see from the map that town en route like Kells, Navan and Virginia all have charging points. Most of our trips are short trips in the locality to the local town for shopping, to the swimming pool etc. It's only on the weekend we'd generally go drives more than that 50km to my wife's homeplace. Is the Leaf the car for us then?

I see articles stating that the Leaf has a range on charge of 98 miles or 135km so it'd get my wife to her homeplace and back again anyway. We're generally doing about 500km to 800km a week between all these small trips. Thing is they're small trips so they eat diesel/petrol in our other cars yet we're spending probably €300 a month on diesel/petrol.

Is there any good articles I can read? I've started reading and see mention of fast chargers, battery rental etc. where could I get good, quick info on all of this? I'm literally starting from knowing nothing.

One other big question - is the Leaf big enough to give us decent space in the boot for a buggy in the boot and two kids in the back?

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

Sabre Man

If you're on Facebook you should join the Irish EV Owners group. There you will get lots of good advice from EV owners.

peposhi

Lemlin wrote: »

Have seen a lot of electric cars in recent weeks so decided I'd look into this. Found the thread here and hoped I'd get some help. My wife and I currently have two cars - one is an '08 Ford Mondeo which we use for most trips. Trouble is, diesel costs, tax and maintenance are driving us crazy. For example, in the last three years we have had to replace the timing belt in 2013, the fuel pump in 2014 and the clutch earlier this year. In fact, our garage man is now laughing that we can drive the car into the ground because we've replaced all the expensive parts. Our other car is a '98 Micra that we're looking into replacing and this is where the scrappage scheme with Nissan interested me.

Previously I wasn't big into the idea of buying a new car that we'd lose value on straight away, then again I'm not mad on going for a used car after we've had to replace so much on this car - therefore a Leaf that would be brand new but save us money in the long run sounds a good option to me.

My wife and I both work in the same place which is about 15km max from our home. I'd say our commute, with dropping the kids to creche on the way, is about 40km max each way. The only other driving we'd regularly do is the odd trip to my wife's homeplace which is 50kms away and then trips to Blanchardstown the odd weekend which is 106km away. I see from the map that town en route like Kells, Navan and Virginia all have charging points. Most of our trips are short trips in the locality to the local town for shopping, to the swimming pool etc. It's only on the weekend we'd generally go drives more than that 50km to my wife's homeplace. Is the Leaf the car for us then?

I see articles stating that the Leaf has a range on charge of 98 miles or 135km so it'd get my wife to her homeplace and back again anyway. We're generally doing about 500km to 800km a week between all these small trips. Thing is they're small trips so they eat diesel/petrol in our other cars yet we're spending probably €300 a month on diesel/petrol.

Is there any good articles I can read? I've started reading and see mention of fast chargers, battery rental etc. where could I get good, quick info on all of this? I'm literally starting from knowing nothing.

One other big question - is the Leaf big enough to give us decent space in the boot for a buggy in the boot and two kids in the back?

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

Leaf is a fantastic car once you get used to the different way EVs are run compared to ICE cars. We have a 3 months old baby and he's been in Cork, Waterford, Dublin, Athy, Portlaoise, Newbridge, Kilkenny, Tullamore and Carlow so far. It is all about a good planning. The boot is not a massive one, but would fir 2 buggies with no probs. The car is big enough for a family with 2 kids in my opinion.
It is very important for you to pick the right car to get rid off. I'd leave the trouble free one...
Read Mad Lad's blog on here. Great read...

cros13

Lemlin wrote: »

Previously I wasn't big into the idea of buying a new car that we'd lose value on straight away, then again I'm not mad on going for a used car after we've had to replace so much on this car - therefore a Leaf that would be brand new but save us money in the long run sounds a good option to me.

An average savings are in the region of €2000 with typical mileage ( 20k km/year ). Insurance would be cheaper than the Mondeo, Tax is €120, maintenance is basically non-existent and running costs are eight to ten times lower than a 2.0 Diesel (when charged on the night rate).

My parents had almost the exact same setup as you and are now driving my "old" 141 Leaf along with their '98 Micra.

Lemlin wrote: »

My wife and I both work in the same place which is about 15km max from our home. I'd say our commute, with dropping the kids to creche on the way, is about 40km max each way. The only other driving we'd regularly do is the odd trip to my wife's homeplace which is 50kms away and then trips to Blanchardstown the odd weekend which is 106km away.

All of you journeys bar the round trip to Blanchardstown are well within the Leaf's range. Blanchardstown has a rapid charger, so a 15/20 minute charge while you're there will get you home, There's a Nissan garage across the N3 with another rapid charger if the Blanch charger is too busy, or there's also another on your route home in Navan.

Lemlin wrote: »

I see from the map that town en route like Kells, Navan and Virginia all have charging points. Most of our trips are short trips in the locality to the local town for shopping, to the swimming pool etc. It's only on the weekend we'd generally go drives more than that 50km to my wife's homeplace. Is the Leaf the car for us then?

You are pretty much the ideal Leaf buyer.

Lemlin wrote: »

I see articles stating that the Leaf has a range on charge of 98 miles or 135km so it'd get my wife to her homeplace and back again anyway.

You have 130km solid in all conditions bar high speed motorway driving in the winter, 150-160km once you get used to driving with the regen braking.

Lemlin wrote: »

We're generally doing about 500km to 800km a week between all these small trips. Thing is they're small trips so they eat diesel/petrol in our other cars yet we're spending probably €300 a month on diesel/petrol.

Before I bought the new i3 I was doing 4000km+ a month on the Leaf. Used an OWL electricity monitor on the wire to the charger. Electricity per month was in the region of €25 - €30.

Lemlin wrote: »

One other big question - is the Leaf big enough to give us decent space in the boot for a buggy in the boot and two kids in the back?

It's a fairly large car for the class. Four large adults + a kid + five carry-on cases comfortably.

peposhi

cros13 wrote: »

An average savings are in the region of €2000 with typical mileage ( 20k km/year ). Insurance would be cheaper than the Mondeo, Tax is €120, maintenance is basically non-existent and running costs are eight to ten times lower than a 2.0 Diesel (when charged on the night rate).

My parents had almost the exact same setup as you and are now driving my "old" 141 Leaf along with their '98 Micra.



All of you journeys bar the round trip to Blanchardstown are well within the Leaf's range. Blanchardstown has a rapid charger, so a 15/20 minute charge while you're there will get you home, There's a Nissan garage across the N3 with another rapid charger if the Blanch charger is too busy, or there's also another on your route home in Navan.



You are pretty much the ideal Leaf buyer.



You have 130km solid in all conditions bar high speed motorway driving in the winter, 150-160km once you get used to driving with the regen braking.



Before I bought the new i3 I was doing 4000km+ a month on the Leaf. Used an OWL electricity monitor on the wire to the charger. Electricity per month was in the region of €25 - €30.



It's a fairly large car for the class. Four large adults + a kid + five carry-on cases comfortably.

Croc13 pretty much nailed it for you.

I traded-in my Audi A4 Avant as it was costing me more per month to run than to pay for the Leaf. Kept the wifey's favourite Yaris as a second car.

Lemlin

Lemlin wrote: »

My wife and I currently have two cars - one is an '08 Ford Mondeo which we use for most trips. Trouble is, diesel costs, tax and maintenance are driving us crazy. For example, in the last three years we have had to replace the timing belt in 2013, the fuel pump in 2014 and the clutch earlier this year. In fact, our garage man is now laughing that we can drive the car into the ground because we've replaced all the expensive parts. Our other car is a '98 Micra that we're looking into replacing and this is where the scrappage scheme with Nissan interested me.

If you want to save money then buying a new car is probably not the best way to do it.

If however buying new then without doubt the ev will save you a lot compared to petrol/diesel.

If it were I then I would most likely sell the Mondeo and keep the 98 Micra for the long trips, use the value in the Mondeo unless you need the space.

PCP is a great way to buy new compared to bank loan or normal finance. It will mean a balloon at the end if you wish to own the car or not pay the balloon and hop into a brand new car, it is a way of coaxing you to buy new every 3 years.

I was spending 240 PM on petrol for the Prius, excluding maintenance costs and motor tax, the savings on petrol alone pay almost half the monthly repayments on the leaf.

I currently drive 134-140 Kms total in the Leaf per shift.

Lemlin wrote: »

Previously I wasn't big into the idea of buying a new car that we'd lose value on straight away, then again I'm not mad on going for a used car after we've had to replace so much on this car - therefore a Leaf that would be brand new but save us money in the long run sounds a good option to me.

The prius is one of the most reliable cars on the road and one of the best 2nd hand cars you will find more than most if not all diesels. I always recommend the Prius over any diesel to people.

You can pick up a MK II prius (2004-2009) for as little as 4K with 100K miles and it will still last easily 250,000 miles with no major maintenance. The batteries are very reliable. You need one that's been fully serviced by Toyota and all the recalls carried out.

Lemlin wrote: »

My wife and I both work in the same place which is about 15km max from our home. I'd say our commute, with dropping the kids to creche on the way, is about 40km max each way. The only other driving we'd regularly do is the odd trip to my wife's homeplace which is 50kms away and then trips to Blanchardstown the odd weekend which is 106km away. I see from the map that town en route like Kells, Navan and Virginia all have charging points. Most of our trips are short trips in the locality to the local town for shopping, to the swimming pool etc. It's only on the weekend we'd generally go drives more than that 50km to my wife's homeplace. Is the Leaf the car for us then?

I drive 134-140 Kms daily in the Leaf with a 10 min daily fast charge and I do not drive slow. SO I guess that answers your question ?

Lemlin wrote: »

I see articles stating that the Leaf has a range on charge of 98 miles or 135km so it'd get my wife to her homeplace and back again anyway. We're generally doing about 500km to 800km a week between all these small trips. Thing is they're small trips so they eat diesel/petrol in our other cars yet we're spending probably €300 a month on diesel/petrol.

140 Kms are achievable and probably 160 Kms at 60-80 Kph in milder weather. There are many roads in Ireland that you will not be able to drive faster. But at 100-110 Kph in the dead of winter I estimate I would get 110 Kms or about 68-70 miles I drive mainly on the open road but I would need to be plugged in at this point.

The Idea is you charge when you get the opportunity and not when the battery is at 10 % or less. Top ups say 30-70% are good for the battery. I opted for the 6.6 kw charger a 900 Euro extra cost but it means I can replace 50% of the battery in 2 hrs from a standard street charger, the fast charger can replace 20-80 % in Winter in about 30-40 mins.

Increasingly there are queues at fast charge points so wherever you can find a standard charge point I would plug in there you might find them more useful than the fast chargers, plug in while you shop etc.

Lemlin wrote: »

Is there any good articles I can read? I've started reading and see mention of fast chargers, battery rental etc. where could I get good, quick info on all of this? I'm literally starting from knowing nothing.

Most of the info is in threads here.

No battery rental on the Leaf in Ireland. Only on the Renault Zoe which has a really good charger. And makes best use of the public charge points.

Lemlin wrote: »

One other big question - is the Leaf big enough to give us decent space in the boot for a buggy in the boot and two kids in the back?
.

What one person calls space another would disagree, you really need to check this out yourself but I can fit an Icandy buggy .

Nearly sure this is the one, it looks like it but the dimensions could be a little different.

pwurple

We have two children, one in a buggy. All fit fine. It's a great car for kids really as the rear windows are tinted, so no whinging about sun in eyes.

We only have it about a month, but so far so good.

edited to add, we got it for similar reasons as you. Our old vehicle was becoming a nightmare with maintenance. Averaged over two years, our vehicle was costing us 485 euro per month in tax, insurance, fuel and maintenance. Even with a car-loan of 300 euro a month, the leaf is coming in as cheaper than our old car to run. Insurance dropped, tax dropped, maintenance is tiny, fuel is negligible. It's a computer with wheels. No exhaust system, no pistons, no oil changes, no catalytic converters.

Lemlin

Thanks for the replies folks.

I just did up some quick figures for myself:

Ford Mondeo
Loan - €241.30 x 12 = €2895.60
Fuel for 700kms per week - €63.28 x 52 = €3290.56
Service every 15,000 kilometres - €120 x 2 = €240
Tax - €390
Total running cost for year - €6816.16

Nissan Leaf
PCP amount - €229 x 12 = €2748
Fuel for 700kms per week - €9.94 x 52 = €516.88
Tax - €120
Servicing - €100
Total running for one year - €3848.88

Difference - €2967.28

Is there anything for the Leaf I am missing there? If I was to sell the Mondeo, it was valued at €7,466 by VMS, a product insurance companies use. That would clear the personal loan I have on it and then I have the €2328 shortfall from the deposit of scrapping the Micra in savings.

I'd need to replace the Micra of course then but its on its last legs. It's certainly something I am going to have a good think about. Are there some cons I am missing about the Leaf? Like if I do run out of battery somewhere, do I just need to ring and pay towing costs or is there any back up service provided by Nissan?

Also, what are the mileage limits like on Nissan?

cros13

Lemlin wrote: »

Is there anything for the Leaf I am missing there?

Looks about right. You can factor in €50 a year as well for the night-rate electricity meter, and €30 to replace the wipers annually if you want to be pedantic.

Lemlin wrote: »

Are there some cons I am missing about the Leaf? Like if I do run out of battery somewhere, do I just need to ring and pay towing costs or is there any back up service provided by Nissan?

You get free european recovery for three years / 100,000km. I've never run out of battery so... never had to check.

Carwings is a bit s*it and can be unresponsive at times, there's no DAB radio unlike many cars in 2015 and it would be nice if you could turn off the creep or turn up the regen braking.
The GuessoMeter estimating your range can't be trusted, but you get used to using the State of Charge % instead to estimate your range. It would also be nice if you could turn off the pedestrian warning noise permanently (without cutting the cable).

That's about all my *minor* Leaf related moans....

Lemlin

Lemlin wrote: »

Is there anything for the Leaf I am missing there? If I was to sell the Mondeo, it was valued at €7,466 by VMS, a product insurance companies use. That would clear the personal loan I have on it and then I have the €2328 shortfall from the deposit of scrapping the Micra in savings.

on the SVE Leaf (top spec) and 5 K deposit I pay 460 Pm for 25K kms per year this is the max allowed. Over this you pay 8 cent per Km, the garage will write some of this off though this is not a guarantee, it depends on how bad they want you business in 3 years. Normally you can change up after 2-2.5 years if you're going to go much over the limit, better to pay more off a new car than the old one.

You're also missing that the work year is usually 48 weeks not 52.

And you're also excluding the cost of the deposit in your first year calculations.

Don't forget that the cost of PCP looks cheap but you got the balloon at the end. If you want to buy the car at the end then it's not so cheap and it's a lot more expensive than driving the old Mondeo.

If you want to change the car in 3 years then the monthly payment never really ends.

If you calculate everything per month then PCP is very attractive provided you're fully aware of the long term commitment. ANd the Balloon at the end if you choose to buy.

The way I look at it if I calculate the monthly running cost of the Prius including motor tax excluding maintenance savings then the Leaf is actually costing me 240 PM inc electricity. I will pay a bit more for leccy because I work shift and when I work nights I have to charge during the day at peak rates but the 240 PM should cover this. So it's not bad to pay this for a new car + fuel PM.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

Carwings is a bit s*it and can be unresponsive at times, there's no DAB radio unlike many cars in 2015 and it would be nice if you could turn off the creep or turn up the regen braking.
The GuessoMeter estimating your range can't be trusted, but you get used to using the State of Charge % instead to estimate your range. It would also be nice if you could turn off the pedestrian warning noise permanently (without cutting the cable).

That's about all my *minor* Leaf related moans....

DAB doesn't work in most of the country so it's not much of an Issue in Ireland. And the quality can be quiet inferior to FM due to high compression.

Creep doesn't bother me.

Regen braking at 30 Kw is more than sufficient, the trick is to not need to over use use the energy in the first place because regen is only 34% efficient by Nissan's own figures. You can never put back what you take out so the idea is take out only what you need, i.e drive slower, and/or don't keep accelerating until you absolutely have to stop at lights , junctions etc. Judge the road ahead and slow down gradually I usually use netural position on the accelerator so that I coast for as long as possible so I'm neither using energy or regenerating it which isn't as efficient as coating, by contrast if regen is 34% efficient then coasting is 100% efficient because by coasting you're moving on energy already used.

If I'm driving down hills I coast unless my speed is too high then I use regen so I let gravity move me rather than have to slow down by using regen and then have to use the battery to speed up again.

In towns, city driving you will generate more than I will on my trip to work and back which on average consumes about 27 Kwh because I drive at decent speeds.

Regen gets me only about 800 watt hrs out of that total 27 KWh used over 134-140 Kms so regen isn't as useful as made out but it is good for saving the pads and disks. My commute is mostly open road with few chances for regen.

If you do a lot of stop start driving you will regenerate a lot more but you'll most likely not be driving long distance and so will have plenty of battery regardless of regen but it's nice to get back as much as possible, to be as efficient as possible.

The distance meter is pretty accurate if you don't suddenly have to climb a long steep hill or suddenly put the boot down then it takes time to adjust. But it's pretty good if you ask me at determining your distance left in the current Gen leaf.

simdan

No, this is wrong buddy I pay 485 per month for my SVE. €5,750 deposit, 30,000kms per year. Balloon payment just over 8k. Who said 25,000km was the max?

simdan

simdan wrote: »

No, this is wrong buddy I pay 485 per month for my SVE. €5,750 deposit, 30,000kms per year. Balloon payment just over 8k. Who said 25,000km was the max?

25K Kms is all I could get.

You pay 27 Pm more , I pay 457 PM and if I rem correctly my GFV is 11,500. Yours seems way lower ? got to check my contract.

If I go over by 15 K Kms then I would in theory pay 1100 euro's but the garage may write off a lot of this if they want my business again, will be more longer range electrics by then also so I'm not tied to any one brand or dealer.

If after 2.5 years i feel I will go way over then I can change the car anyway rather than pay excess mileage, I can put it towards a new car.

I've done 9500 Kms since the 24th Jan, and people say electrics are useless ?

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

DAB doesn't work in most of the country so it's not much of an Issue in Ireland. And the quality can be quiet inferior to FM due to high compression.

I prefer DAB, no ads on most of the stations. Coverage goes as far as my place in Tipp.

Deleted User wrote: »

Regen gets me only about 800 watt hrs out of that total 27 KWh used over 134-140 Kms so regen isn't as useful as made out but it is good for saving the pads and disks. My commute is mostly open road with few chances for regen.

On my last trip in the i3 I recovered 6kWh through regen from 14.6kWh expended. City driving

Deleted User wrote: »

The distance meter is pretty accurate if you don't suddenly have to climb a long steep hill or suddenly put the boot down then it takes time to adjust. But it's pretty good if you ask me at determining your distance left in the current Gen leaf.

My i3's guessometer is even more accurate because it adjusts based on speed limits and elevation data along the route from the the GPS. I still find the SoC meter and my mental math does a better job.

simdan

Deleted User wrote:

If after 2.5 years i feel I will go way over then I can change the car anyway rather than pay excess mileage, I can put it towards a new car.

Deleted User wrote:

I've done 9500 Kms since the 24th Jan, and people say electrics are useless ?

Yeah, your numbers are higher because you have the 6kw option. I always forget that's the difference between our cars.. I'd say the dealer will let you away with a few kms if you're willing to sign a new contract so not really sure with being accurate with the mileage was a good or bad thing.

Im up to 6500km since the end of feb. Loving electric. Loving the car. Highly recommended:)

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

I prefer DAB, no ads on most of the stations. Coverage goes as far as my place in Tipp.

Coverage does not include Mount Leinster so I wouldn't know about adds but looking at some of the specs some stations stream at as little as 32 Kbps, and 96 Kbps was the max at the time I checked last which was a few years ago. I couldn't listen to this rubbish quality.

cros13 wrote: »

On my last trip in the i3 I recovered 6kWh through regen from 14.6kWh expended. City driving

Probably if you do most driving in the city, but I think the point I was making was that if you are doing mainly city driving then even without regen you'd have plenty of range, on a long trip it doesn't really matter because you won't get the opportunity for much regen. But it is good to be as efficient as possible recapturing as much energy as possible.

On my commute I measured about 800 watt hrs of regen.

cros13 wrote: »

My i3's guessometer is even more accurate because it adjusts based on speed limits and elevation data along the route from the the GPS. I still find the SoC meter and my mental math does a better job.

I don't have to think about range much because I know I'll make it to work and back to the fast charger for a 10-15 min QC. If going on an unfamiliar route then I would have to think about it more.

It is nice not having to worry much about efficiency and it's especially nice not to have to worry about fuel economy because electricity is so cheap and I can get some free leccy at the fast chargers.

Have been thinking of getting a leaf for a couple of years now. I finally bit the bullet after covering over 500 km on a demo model since Friday with only slight issues. I put a deposit down for a pearl white SVE with 6 kW charger this morning.

My petrol 9-5 looked at me accusingly this morning but 4k trade in for a 15 year old 2.0 petrol car was too hard to pass... The dealer gave me an estimate of delivery "in July", so let's see how it goes.

samih

samih wrote: »

Have been thinking of getting a leaf for a couple of years now. I finally bit the bullet after covering over 500 km on a demo model since Friday with only slight issues. I put a deposit down for a pearl white SVE with 6 kW charger this morning.

My petrol 9-5 looked at me accusingly this morning but 4k trade in for a 15 year old 2.0 petrol car was too hard to pass... The dealer gave me an estimate of delivery "in July", so let's see how it goes.

Well done, best of luck , you won't regret it !

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Well done, best of luck , you won't regret it !

Thanks Mad_Lad and many thank yous for very helpful writings here at boards.

samih

samih wrote: »

Thanks Mad_Lad and many thank yous for very helpful writings here at boards.

You're very welcome. You're well educated now haha

I like to think I've contributed to a good few EV sales.

9500 Kms on my Leaf since 24th Jan , best car ever !

simdan

samih wrote:

Have been thinking of getting a leaf for a couple of years now. I finally bit the bullet after covering over 500 km on a demo model since Friday with only slight issues. I put a deposit down for a pearl white SVE with 6 kW charger this morning.

samih wrote:

My petrol 9-5 looked at me accusingly this morning but 4k trade in for a 15 year old 2.0 petrol car was too hard to pass... The dealer gave me an estimate of delivery "in July", so let's see how it goes.

You will love it! I had to wait a week for mine and that was too long! It's a fantastic car, nothing like it for the money. Glad you went with the SVE, see so many 151 SVs and even base models and don't understand why they didn't go all out? Top 4 SVE features, 'gorgeous' 17" alloys, leather, bose sound system and all round cameras plus many more. It's the best car I've ever owned.

Also the acceleration is way underrated, it's awesome. Nothing beats you off the lights, the satisfaction of sitting next to 5 series beemers and leaving them for dead is hilarious.. The car makes you smile.. Good luck!