Lactate/VO2 testing in Dublin area

RayCun

There seem to be a few options

UCD do 'Aerobic endurance testing' which takes one or two hours depending on whether they take blood samples (that seems to be the difference?)

There's the Sports Surgery Clinic, general screening plus VO2 max test, no price listed

Sports Med Ireland do lactate testing, not VO2

and there's the Lab in Trinity that doesn't seem to have a web page, just a contact for the guy doing it

Any recommendations for any of the above, or others? Advantages of getting both levels tested compared to just lactate? Is the blood sample testing much more accurate (no fear of needles but it costs twice as much!)?

TRR_the_turd

RayCun wrote: »

There's the Sports Surgery Clinic, general screening plus VO2 max test, no price listed

SSc probably won't suit you

Anyone over the age of 45 wishing to arrange an appointment should call our fitness department on 01 5262050 for more information as further tests will be required prior to you booking an appointment.

I've only ever attended TCD so can't compare to others. If you really want to get the most out of these you need to plan on going at least 3 times over the block you are training for and monitor improvements etc

RayCun

cheeky pup :pac:

the TCD guy good?

walshb

I did one with these guys. Very good

http://www.myhealthmatters.ie/vo2-testing/vo2-run-testing/

SWL

Went to UCD a good few years back, very happy with the test, found it very interesting

dna_leri

What's the purpose of a VO2max test?

walshb

dna_leri wrote: »

What's the purpose of a VO2max test?

Isn't it to analyse your oxygen intake efficiency (and use of it during exercise), and how your heart and lungs process it and deliver it around to the muscles? I think that is the main point of it....Sorry to answer with a question!:)

RayCun

dna_leri wrote: »

What's the purpose of a VO2max test?

as opposed to a lactate test? I presume they can both be used to set training paces?

Clearlier

dna_leri wrote: »

What's the purpose of a VO2max test?

Willy waving mostly I think.

Assuming you're doing a test that doesn't just measure your VO2 max they're an interesting insight into your current fitness levels which can be used to help plan your training.

You can get some useful info. out of a one off test but as TRR said it's more useful to see progression over a few of them - can give you really useful insights as to how you respond to certain types of training.

Ceepo

RayCun wrote: »

as opposed to a lactate test? I presume they can both be used to set training paces?

Knowing your vo2 is akin to knowing today is Friday.
Knowing your lactate threshold is to know the other days in the week.

dna_leri

walshb wrote: »

Isn't it to analyse your oxygen intake efficiency (and use of it), and how your heart and lungs process it and deliver it around to the muscles? I think that is the main point of it....Sorry to answer with a question!:)

So say your VO2max is 40 ml/Kg/min for a male at age 40, how will that affect your training?

Most elite athletes do not pay much attention to it anymore.

See why here:
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/12/fallacy-of-vo2max-and-vo2max.html

And another one from the world of boxing:
http://www.boxingscene.com/exercise/54096.php

walshb

dna_leri wrote: »

So say your VO2max is 40 ml/Kg/min for a male at age 40, how will that affect your training?

Most elite athletes do not pay much attention to it anymore.

See why here:
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/12/fallacy-of-vo2max-and-vo2max.html

And another one from the world of boxing:
http://www.boxingscene.com/exercise/54096.php

I found the test very interesting. I can't recall off the top of my head but I had a good chat with the guy who did it and he made some good points about the test and how it can be used to help you train. He did say that the reading is very much down to nature and that you can improve it with training but it's a lot to do with your make up.

leftism

VO2max and lactate profiling in TCD costs 60 euro. Includes full medical and blood test. Tests are run by Bernard Donne, who has over 30 years experience testing many of Ireland's top athletes from a wide range of sports. He doesn't advertise online because he's usually flooded with test requests and doesn't have the time.

Anyone who needs more information or wants to book in for a test can PM me and i'll get you set up.

walshb

leftism wrote: »

VO2max and lactate profiling in TCD costs 60 euro. Includes full medical and blood test. Tests are run by Bernard Donne, who has over 30 years experience testing many of Ireland's top athletes from a wide range of sports. He doesn't advertise online because he's usually flooded with test requests and doesn't have the time.

Anyone who needs more information or wants to book in for a test can PM me and i'll get you set up.

Super price that.

dna_leri

leftism wrote: »

VO2max and lactate profiling in TCD costs 60 euro. Includes full medical and blood test. Tests are run by Bernard Donne, who has over 30 years experience testing many of Ireland's top athletes from a wide range of sports. He doesn't advertise online because he's usually flooded with test requests and doesn't have the time.

Anyone who needs more information or wants to book in for a test can PM me and i'll get you set up.

@leftism - I can see the benefit of lactate profiling for some athletes and I have no doubt the guys in TCD are as good as there is but do you really think there is a benefit in VO2max testing for "recreational runners" ?

Ceepo

walshb wrote: »

I found the test very interesting. I can't recall off the top of my head but I had a good chat with the guy who did it and he made some good points about the test and how it can be used to help you train. He did say that the reading is very much down to nature and that you can improve it with training but it's a lot to do with your make up.

I know a few people that done the vo2 test with this company and said the same thing. However knowing your vo2 is pointless as a training guide. if your vo2 no is 45, 50 or 60 what do you do with that number.
However if you know your lactate threshold points you can train more specific in the given zone for a given training session.

rom

Lactic profile said I could run 3:15. 3 months later ran 3:18 in 2nd marathon when did 4:30 in my first. Scored poorly in the VO2max test, like 10 points as felt bad having a breathing mask on. Thinking about getting it done again but only lactic part as its the only thing I care about tbh.

Ceepo

rom wrote: »

Lactic profile said I could run 3:15. 3 months later ran 3:18 in 2nd marathon when did 4:30 in my first. Scored poorly in the VO2max test, like 10 points as felt bad having a breathing mask on. Thinking about getting it done again but only lactic part as its the only thing I care about tbh.

Why done you just do a lactate test on the track then ?

Sacksian

I did the Lactate/Vo2 testing out in UCD towards the end of last year.

For the most part, I did it out of curiosity. But I also wanted to figure out how to train better and more efficiently. Both the lactate threshold and HRMax values have been quite useful, specifically for figuring out tempo and easy paces but, generally, I just found the process and output interesting.

I've never liked tempo runs - I'd say I attempted about 7 or 8 in total the last two years and probably abandoned three of those halfway through, so having some figures (or at least a range) to work off has been something new for me and I've tried to specifically work on my lactate threshold in training the last 6 weeks.

I had already started running very slowly on easy days before this test and it confirmed that I needed to go even slower! I run ridiculously slowly on easy days. I've never been able to run a lot of miles (i.e. >40 miles a week) but by slowing down my easy days, I'm just less tired - so I'm now running more.

At some point, I'm hoping that my easy pace picks up in time but I'm not stressing if it doesn't. If it's messing with faster race paces in a few months, I might reconsider. I should also probably do strides more often but, apart from that, I'm actually enjoying running very slowly most days at the minute.

The Vo2max value isn't that useful to training but it was interesting to know mine was quite low and bore no relation to any of the estimated values that online calculators would give me based on times, particularly the shorter events.

Velocity at Vo2max was also interesting - this was mile pace for me and I think it should be a pace that can be sustained for longer than that, so perhaps that's something that could be worked on too?

I might try TCD for the next one in a couple of months to see the impact of my training.

rom

Ceepo wrote: »

Why done you just do a lactate test on the track then ?

Sorry I don't understand the question.

Ceepo

rom wrote: »

Sorry I don't understand the question.

Sorry. Get your lactate test done on a running track with a mobile lactate test kit.

Jnealon

Give Emmett Dunleavy a shout. He will come out to your club/track and do the tests.
I know a few people who have used him and they found him very good.

emerald007

http://www.perfectpacing.com/

Ghost in Cratloe

Jnealon wrote: »

Give Emmett Dunleavy a shout. He will come out to your club/track and do the tests.
I know a few people who have used him and they found him very good.

Lactate Tests on an outdoor track are a waste of time in Ireland. There are pointless for joggers as they are unable to maintain pace consistently. i.e 85 second lap with the first 200m in 40 seconds. This results in inaccurate readings and lactate spikes.

Ceepo

Ghost in Cratloe wrote: »

Lactate Tests on an outdoor track are a waste of time in Ireland. There are pointless for joggers as they are unable to maintain pace consistently. i.e 85 second lap with the first 200m in 40 seconds. This results in inaccurate readings and lactate spikes.

This may be true in the example you gave. In your opinion would the same hold true for more experience athletes who can judge/hold a given pace.

rom

Ghost in Cratloe wrote: »

Lactate Tests on an outdoor track are a waste of time in Ireland. There are pointless for joggers as they are unable to maintain pace consistently. i.e 85 second lap with the first 200m in 40 seconds. This results in inaccurate readings and lactate spikes.

nah I am well used to running laps on the money at different paces. a mobile test kit does seem expensive though.

Ghost in Cratloe

rom wrote: »

nah I am well used to running laps on the money at different paces. a mobile test kit does seem expensive though.

What happens if its a windy day when your tester comes? Running off paces is pointless on a wind infested track. To be on the money at different paces would require you to put more effort on some sections of the lap over others.

Example:

You are told to run a 6 minute mile. First lap 90 seconds bang on with a 22.5 second 100 m split for each four sections. This continues for 1600m and you run 6 minutes flat.

The first 200 is with the wind, the second 200 is against the wind. In order to maintain 90 second pace you are working harder on the second half and working easier on the first part of the lap. This is a great lactate buffering workout but not for a lactate field test. You may have a reading of 5.2mmol instead of the desired 3.8-4.1 mmol for the test under suitable conditions.

So after spending money on the test you never actually find out your threshold pace is and thus cannot gauge whether there has been an improvement over a 12 week training cycle. The tester will just say you reached 4 mmol at 6.20 and a heart rate of 170 so this is your heart rate zone for workouts not taking into account the changes in heart rate that might occur within the segment due to wind which may distort the lactate reading.

On an indoor treadmill conditions are ideal and pace is consistent which provides accurate data to determine a training plan.

Ceepo

Ghost in Cratloe wrote: »

What happens if its a windy day when your tester comes? Running off paces is pointless on a wind infested track. To be on the money at different paces would require you to put more effort on some sections of the lap over others.

Example:

You are told to run a 6 minute mile. First lap 90 seconds bang on with a 22.5 second 100 m split for each four sections. This continues for 1600m and you run 6 minutes flat.

The first 200 is with the wind, the second 200 is against the wind. In order to maintain 90 second pace you are working harder on the second half and working easier on the first part of the lap. This is a great lactate buffering workout but not for a lactate field test. You may have a reading of 5.2mmol instead of the desired 3.8-4.1 mmol for the test under suitable conditions.

So after spending money on the test you never actually find out your threshold pace is and thus cannot gauge whether there has been an improvement over a 12 week training cycle. The tester will just say you reached 4 mmol at 6.20 and a heart rate of 170 so this is your heart rate zone for workouts not taking into account the changes in heart rate that might occur within the segment due to wind which may distort the lactate reading.

On an indoor treadmill conditions are ideal and pace is consistent which provides accurate data to determine a training plan.

Agree with you under the conditions.
However that does not mean you can not do it outside under better conditions.
What happens if the tester arrives and its a nice day wit little or no wind. .?
My guess is you can do the test

Ghost in Cratloe

Ceepo wrote: »

Agree with you under the conditions.
However that does not mean you can not do it outside under better conditions.
What happens if the tester arrives and its a nice day wit little or no wind. .?
My guess is you can do the test

That athlete should Book it in for June so while everyone else gets in done in January/Feb and thus can began to train properly.

Ceepo

Ghost in Cratloe wrote: »

That athlete should Book it in for June so while everyone else gets in done in January/Feb and thus can began to train properly.

Maybe come down for them hills in Cratloe

PerfectPacing

If it’s ok with admin, I’d like to clarify a few points on the testing protocols (since the name popped up earlier)

In relation to V02 Max… it’s of very little use in training. An often quoted example is Paula Radcliffe. Paula's V02 Max remained virtually unchanged from when she won world Junior XC aged 18 to when she broke the World marathon record. What improved was her running economy and threshold.

Re Lactate Test
The single best method to find threshold pace and heart rate (HR) is to run continuously for 30 minutes taking lactates throughout. If the lactate values remain steady through the 30 mins, retest at a slightly higher pace. This process continues until the fastest possible lactate steady state is established. A very time consuming protocol and not practical for either athlete or coach.

The most popular alternatives for estimating threshold are 1) Laboratory treadmill test or 2) Field test on the track. Both will provide a solid estimate of threshold heart rate. My personal preference is the track test, as better inferences can be made as regards pace.
The obvious downfall… you are at the mercy of the weather for outdoor tests. A windy day means postponement. Relatively light breezes can be adjusted for. Humidity & temperature also need to be accounted for when at extreme levels. I find I end up postponing a lot more tests on the west coast than the east… a reflection of the weather (wind).

Re Pace.
The athletes wear a Garmin to regulate pace and are also monitored very closely by the tester. Even if the opening 30 seconds is too fast/slow, once this is quickly adjusted for, there is a no impact. The remaining 5 minutes of the interval allow blood lactate to stabilize. Novice athletes require closer monitoring on pace for obvious reasons.

Who Benefits
Novice/intermediate runners tend get the biggest % gains from the test. The vast majority of novice athletes do easy day’s too hard, and hard days too easy.
For more experienced athletes, pinpointing exact threshold zones is what yields most benefit. Using the threshold HR for long intervals and tempos is key at most stages of the training cycle.

Follow-up
In an ideal world, athletes would get re-tested every 8-12 weeks to monitor progress. For a variety of reasons this is not possible. However a good alternative is to benchmark test using heart rates.

Take 2 heart rates from the test results and note the pace being run at each HR. Preferably use sub max HR’s like aerobic threshold and lactate/anaerobic threshold. On the track, run 10-12 mins at the aerobic threshold, followed by 8-10 mins at the lactate threshold. Compare the paces during the benchmark test to that of the lactate test. If the athlete is progressing there should be an improvement in the pace at each heart rate. (All else being equal with wind, training load etc)

After a significant jump in performance, a full retest of lactates may be required. The coach can decide.

While testing is by no means a magic bullet to performance gain, its certainly a valuable tool for athletes and coaches.