300-350m2 house costs and fees

paddy0090

Hi my Mam is having her house rebuilt after it flooded(4-5 inches) for the 4th time.

The old house is in Meath just outside Dublin and is a 36 years old bungalow c150m2 on about .5-1 acre and has a big unaatached garage c40m2.

My Mam wants the new one to be 300-350m2 over 2 stories with a similar sized garage. The 2 stories shouldn't be a problem as the houses either side are both 2 stories even if one is dormer. The budget if for €800k but we don't want to spend it all.

An initial consultation with an architect has thrown back the following costs.

€1500 per m2 (ex VAT) - doesn't include inflation for 2 years down the road of when the project actually starts. So I'm revising this up to €1650 per m2. With €1000 per m2 for the garage.

Topographical surveor €2k-2.5k (ex VAT). For planning

Quantity surveyor €9.5k (ex VAT) I wonder do we need the full service of a QS as I in my line of work have time to manage this. Is this a good price?

Structural Engineer €16k (ec VAT) - includes Civil and Structural Engineering Services, PSDP, Assigned Certifier

M & E Engineer €9k (ex VAT) - I have since been informed we don't need this and we're axing it.

Architect....
Has given 2 workings for fees. The first is a percentage of 10% and second is an hourly rate.
The services include full architectural design for work stages 1-4 and IIRC this includes sourcing of internal finishes(e.g Tiles). She will also be fulfilling the role of design certifier.
Her total projected fee comes to €72k(ex VAT), comprised of

• €60k architects fees -10% on max €600K building budget
• €12k for design certifier.- I don't know

She estimates 1700 hrs for the architectural services and 512 for the design certifier.


The total costs she gave us was €817k including VAT(excl. reimbursable expenses). It was costed at €1500 per m2.



So some background. As I said the house has flooded 4 times and thats why we are rebuilding it. We've done as much as we can on her land and with neighbours to prevent it happening again and at this stage it's up to the council to fix the drainage on the road. The problem is caused by one off housing on an old farmers road whereby ditches were filled in with different size pipes and in some case asbestos pipes that have since collapsed in places. Her house just happens to be at a dip in the road where the water can't get a away from.



The rebuild is being financed by the family(6 kids) from inheritance and a loan. So while it might seem like we have loadsamoney we don't. We'd rather not spend as much and are open to ammendments that might save cash. The obvious places to save being size and finishes.


I'm happy with the building cost fees. Do the professional fees seem fair/accurate?


What are the biggest methods to save money in both building costs and profesional fees? e.g do/don't do this because it'll mean a lower/higher fee for profession X.



Thanks in advance.

Rabbo

The €1500/m2 + VAT budget figure would be prudent but you could probably build cheaper, depending on internal finishes, etc.


The professional fees seem very high. €72k + VAT for architect fees is alot but would be justifiable if she is actually going to spend 1700 hours on project. Thats almost a year full-time for a single person. Do you need that kind of input in your build? did you ask for it?

€9.5k on a quantity surveyor also seems excessive.

Did you happen to tell her your budget before you asked for the costing?

paddy0090

Rabbo wrote: »

The €1500/m2 + VAT budget figure would be prudent but you could probably build cheaper, depending on internal finishes, etc.


The professional fees seem very high. €72k + VAT for architect fees is alot but would be justifiable if she is actually going to spend 1700 hours on project. Thats almost a year full-time for a single person. Do you need that kind of input in your build? did you ask for it?

€9.5k on a quantity surveyor also seems excessive.

Did you happen to tell her your budget before you asked for the costing?

That is typically the way this architect operates. Heavily involved in each part of the project. We know that we can reduce the fee somewhat if we pull their input back a bit.

Her total hours gives 276 days or 55 working weeks(incl. as Design Certifier). The hourly rate is €60 so the % is a lot cheaper. Would it be normal to spend that much time on a domestic project.

Yeah we gave her a budget figure.

893bet

Given that the kids are paying and all grown up when why is such a hugh house replacing a 150m2 bungalow?

How is rebuilding going to solve the flooding issue?

BryanF

40m2 granny flat adjoining one of your siblings houses: €72k + VAT

Rabbo

paddy0090 wrote: »

That is typically the way this architect operates. Heavily involved in each part of the project. We know that we can reduce the fee somewhat if we pull their input back a bit.

Her total hours gives 276 days or 55 working weeks(incl. as Design Certifier). The hourly rate is €60 so the % is a lot cheaper. Would it be normal to spend that much time on a domestic project.

Yeah we gave her a budget figure.

It wouldn't be normal to spend those kind of figure on professional fees unless it was a very high spec build. Also, 350m2 is a considerable house.
It sounds like you gave her your budget of €800k and asked her what could be provided with it. Does your mother need a house that big? I would seriously consider rethinking the budget figure. You would easily get a high spec 200m2+ house built for half that figure all-in.

Gumbo

Have you allowed for an Assigned Certifer?

Edit : just noticed the Engineer is taking on the role.

Calahonda52

893bet wrote: »

Given that the kids are paying and all grown up when why is such a hugh house replacing a 150m2 bungalow?

How is rebuilding going to solve the flooding issue?

+ 1
Unless your name is O'Brien, this project from a financial perspective makes no sense.
Have u taken CAT tax advice on the financing by the kids.

Building a mansion on a known flood plain, and sinking 800k cash into it is just pure mad.
Will it be insurable after 4 or five Noah's Ark jobbies?
Build her a Passive house that will cost maybe 100 a year to heat.
Building two storey for a woman who is not getting younger...ars you putting in a lift?

As for the fees, she saw you coming and priced her service to suit

Bracken81

The Professional Fees do seem rather excessive to be honest

The New Design & Assigned Certifier now roles in play, have pushed costs up dramatically
But that quote still seems above normal

RORY O CONNOR

You don't have to use the Architect as the AC-get someone else to do it-€12k for design certifier-that is crazy given that the Architect will be supplying you with or should be supplying you with a final certificate of compliance anyway.

paddy0090

893bet wrote: »

Given that the kids are paying and all grown up when why is such a hugh house replacing a 150m2 bungalow?

How is rebuilding going to solve the flooding issue?

There's space for a bigger house. It'll be my mam and brother who suffers with psychosis who will be living there. I didn't mention it in the OP but my Mam will also be contributing(25%) to the new house. We'll hold onto it for 15 years and hopefully break even when we go to sell. In the mean time she and brother have a comfortable home that we and our wives/girlfriends/husbands/boyfriends can visit and stay without being on top of each other.

If the house was a .5 foot higher flooding wouldn't be a problem. Also the house is 36 years old and when it does flood the water comes up through gaps in the floor where a burst pipe was replaced(badly) about 15 years ago. It's 36 years old and has other problems. E.g when we moved them out before Christmas it was idle for a week before a pipe burst.

BrianF wrote:

40m2 granny flat adjoining one of your siblings houses: €72k + VAT

My sister lives in London and of my three brothers only one of us have what might be a suitable site. The biggest obstacle though is my mother, who doesn't want to give up her home of 36 years. And even if she was prepared to, the granny flat wouldn't suit my sick brother.

Rabbo wrote:

It wouldn't be normal to spend those kind of figure on professional fees unless it was a very high spec build. Also, 350m2 is a considerable house.
It sounds like you gave her your budget of €800k and asked her what could be provided with it. Does your mother need a house that big? I would seriously consider rethinking the budget figure. You would easily get a high spec 200m2+ house built for half that figure all-in.

€800k is the max. As I said, not keen to spend it all, and the option of a smaller house is still being considered.

Calahonda52 wrote:

...... O'Brien.....
....... CAT tax advice.....

....... mansion .........known flood plain.......sinking 800k cash........pure mad.
....... 4 or five Noah's Ark jobbies?.......
......Passive house.......cost maybe 100 a year to heat.
Building two storey for a woman who is not getting younger...ars you putting in a lift?

As for the fees, she saw you coming and priced her service to suit

CAT - Capital Acquisitions Tax, no need to use the word tax twice! I did mention inheritance in the OP so I'm familiar with CAT. Also as it happens one of my brothers is a chartered accountant who specializes in tax.

4 or 5 or four or five - as it happens the house has been insurable despite previous claims, but then she has had it insured for 36 years with no claims on it up until about 5 years ago.

Flood Plain - who said it was a flood plain? The nearest river is 1km away and is between 5 and 10 metres lower than the house.

As to the rest of your post, it's pure blowhard bingo. Bingo!

To everyone else thanks. One more question. Can you get the Design Certifier and the assigned certifier to be the same professional? I was told by a friend that this was the case. And if so would it be cheaper?

Rabbo

Yes, the design certifier and the assigned certifier are often are the same person. They may be separate if the main designer/design certifier isn't qualified or willing to act as Assigned Certifier.

If you are willing to spend that kind of money on the build, don't let anyone here put you off but its would be advisable to look for a second cost proposal from elsewhere.

RORY O CONNOR

It seems to be a common occurrence that the original designer for planning purposes is unwilling or unable to accept the role of the design certifier at the commencement notice stage for whatever reason and it can fall to the AC to fulfill the role of DC and AC for the purposes of getting the commencement notice uploaded and validated.

galwaytt

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

It seems to be a common occurrence that the original designer for planning purposes is unwilling or unable to accept the role of the design certifier at the commencement notice stage for whatever reason and it can fall to the AC to fulfill the role of DC and AC for the purposes of getting the commencement notice uploaded and validated.

You have that exactly right - on a job now where that's happening.

RORY O CONNOR

On two jobs where I am acting as AC this has occurred and I know of three others where this has occurred for other ACs. Strange that the guy who does the design for the planning etc is not prepared to act as design certifier for the commencement!