Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

floggg

RobertKK wrote: »

Hmmm, basic mathematics would show a problem within your minority talk.

Well if he's talking on terms of the millions of years religion has been causing harm(?!) "soon" is a relative term.

floggg

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Why do you try and bother to understand when you dont even believe in a Creator and a God to begin with?

Because unlike some, I don't just accept whatever beliefs I am told to or was raised with.

I was raised in a Catholic household, but came to my conclusions regarding the non-existence of any gods based on consideration of all relevant evidence, arguments and sources.

I would be a fool to make up my mind before considering all the arguments, now wouldn't I.

K4t

floggg wrote: »

Religion isn't needed for us to offer for great evil to each other unfortunately. Man has always been, and likely will be prone to evil.

The problem with religion is that it cam legitimise and validate evil impulses, and provide us with justification for giving in to them.

That's not exclusive to religion mind, and various other concepts and ideologies have had the same effect in the past - including patriotism, politics ethnicity etc.

Religion cam however he the most dangerous, simply because it adds a false veneer of morality and virtue to evil acts.

That is all true but whenever society has an opportunity to progress and move forward, the opposition is most of the time stood firmly behind religious beliefs. You only have to look at Iona as a recent example of this in Ireland. Religious defenders will say, oh look at all the scientists and mathematicians of faith but we all know they are not the majority and that even their beliefs on other things can be influenced by their religious beliefs. Of course without religion there would still be evil, nobody is denying that, it's just sad when you think how further forward and advanced we could be were it not for religion. And I mean that in relation to the benefit of all people of faith and all those not of faith, not just the religious few who can compartmentalize.

Ave Sodalis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234

Possibly a bit NSFW but this is basically a summary of what Mr Fry was saying

Donkey Oaty

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Why do you try and bother to understand when you dont even believe in a Creator and a God to begin with?

Where do you stand on the existence of Elves?

I don't mean djinns - I am specifically referring to Icelandic Elves.

Grayson

RobertKK wrote: »

I take 'thou shalt not kill' literally, should our laws change so they don't copy the bible.

Thou shalt not murder you mean. That's what the bible said. The difference is that murder is non state sanctioned killing. And it also meant that people should not kill within their own tribe. Outside the tribe was fine.

Defender OF Faith

floggg wrote: »

Because unlike some, I don't just accept whatever beliefs I am told to or was raised with.

I was raised in a Catholic household, but came to my conclusions regarding the non-existence of any gods based on consideration of all relevant evidence, arguments and sources.

I would be a fool to make up my mind before considering all the arguments, now wouldn't I.

Great, that's really good and I applaud you for this as really the majority of people who hold a religious belief hold such a belief because of a blind following to what they were raised with, he's a Christian because his parents are, he's a Muslim because his parents are, but you decided to think for yourself which is what am applauding here.

But it's useless to question whether God is Evil because Evil exist in the world when you don't believe in a God to begin, for an Atheist with a materialistic outlook the suffering and evil is caused by Humans themselves and the process of evolution and natural selection to deem those best capable of surviving in the harshest of conditions to spread their genes. We have enough resources in this planet to feed two extra planet unfortunately these resources and being hoarded not by God but those among us belonging to the same race as us. There are people who lives lavishly with money houses and cars while people are dying in Africa these people play a role in the suffering on earth and to blame all this on a God which you dont even believe in is extremely naive and complete silliness.

As this argument is not even a refutation or a contention with regard to God existence but rather it questions the nature of God, and a question regarding a Nature of God when you dont even believe in a God does not make sense to me.

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Where do you stand on the existence of Elves?

I don't mean djinns - I am specifically referring to Icelandic Elves.

I understand that your trying to do a correlation between understanding God and understanding Elves so forgive me if I misunderstood as this is a faulty comparison between completely unrelated subjects.
Secondly God cannot further be compared with Elves as God is a basic cross cultural belief and a belief in a God is not culturally bond. Believing in Icelandic Elves means I would need to have been brought up in a culture where am taught about such a thing, the idea of God however, the basic underlying idea of a creator and a supernatural cause for the universe is cross cultural. It's not subject on culture but transcend it, just like the belief in causality and the existence of other minds.

Maximus Alexander

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

As this argument is not even a refutation or a contention with regard to God existence but rather it questions the nature of God, and a question regarding a Nature of God when you dont even believe in a God does not make sense to me.

It's absolutely a refutation of God.

If a God is omnipotent and loving, but the world is full of suffering, then that God can't exist.

saywhatyousee

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It's absolutely a refutation of God.

If a God is omnipotent and loving, but the world is full of suffering, then that God can't exist.

That's the new testament god t he old testament one was a bit more hardcore

Maximus Alexander

saywhatyousee wrote: »

That's the new testament god t he old testament one was a bit more hardcore

Maybe the Jews are on to something then.

LorMal

[URL="http:////i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4928484.ece/alternates/s615/Stephen-Fry-and-Elliott-Spencer.jpg"]http:////i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4928484.ece/alternates/s615/Stephen-Fry-and-Elliott-Spencer.jpg[/URL]

I m surprised Stephen does not believe in miracles

COYVB

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

God is a basic cross cultural belief and a belief in a God is not culturally bond. Believing in Icelandic Elves means I would need to have been brought up in a culture where am taught about such a thing, the idea of God however, the basic underlying idea of a creator and a supernatural cause for the universe is cross cultura

you would STILL need to be brought up in a culture that teaches about god for you to know about the idea of god though. claiming otherwise shows a gross misunderstanding of the concept

Defender OF Faith

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It's absolutely a refutation of God.

If a God is omnipotent and loving, but the world is full of suffering, then that God can't exist.

This argument only works if God is all good and all powerful, but your forgetting that he's also all wise and he's also all knowing, you have the pixel he have the picture, you have the puzzle piece he has the puzzle. You do not have his knowledge or Wisdom to understand why X or Y exist.

Secondly from a theistic perspective we are created to have a relationship with God, there's not a single thorn that will prick you except that you will be expiated for your sins and elevated in terms of your rank in paradise, hardship and suffering in this life is not only temporary but will not go unrewarded in the next life, as this life is nothing but a mere test and trail.

God gave mankind free will, the freedom to choose between right and wrong. What that mean is that inevitably it's the choice to do the Evil which is the Evil and not the fact that God created it.

It's the choice of Man that's evil, but that does not mean God is happy with that decision nor pleased with it, but because God has given him the choice he had created and given that choice an external manifestation.

That does not mean that there isn't a plan or wisdom to the fact that it occurred; we see that when a catastrophes occur what do people do? you see them flocking to centres where they can donate their wealth and time so that they can help the poor and weak.
We don't have the knowledge or information about everything, calamities bring out the true nature of people it also bring the best of people.

There is Good and Evil {including all of what they entail} in existence, but Good is the norm and Evil is the exception. Good Health is the standard and norm and illness is but a temporary situation. The stability of Earth is the norm but an earthquake is but an exception for a few minutes, after a while everything will return to normal, similarly wars are but short periods in history followed by long periods of peace. Hence Good is the rule and evil is the exception.

To add that evil is not evil from both sides, for every evil there's a good side that accompanies it. A Volcano eruption brings much Evil but at the same there's a Good that will follow which we cannot ignore here's but a few:

the many precious gems and building materials that can only come from volcanoes. Opals and obsidian are produced in volcanoes. Volcanic eruptions produce pumice stones, which people have used to remove excess skin. Hardened volcanic ash, called tuff makes a strong, lightweight building material.
Regions of volcanic activity are enormous sources of geothermal energy. One of the most volcanically active regions in the world is Iceland, and they generate a sizable portion of their energy from geothermal energy.

The same can be said about earthquake and the goodness which follows after the destruction caused, which you can read about to avoid extending this post.

Illness will create resistance and make us value health, and from poison antidote is made, and while on on one side War brought horrible destruction a good side follows as will, for example all the efforts to unite the world were brought about after periods of wars. The united nations security council, NATO and the league of Nations, so from the struggle of war these attempts were made so humanity as a family might come together to prevent such tragedies.
To include that many inventions that advanced humanity were made during the time of war such as the mass production of penicillin by the US during the Invasion of Normandy, depth Charges,hydrophones, air traffic control,air craft carriers pilot less drones. The list is very long just search about technological advancement made during war.

Billions were invested to make weapons but forcefully and unwillingly advancement were made in both fields of destruction and Good. Evil is not evil from all its faces, it's evil from one side and Good from one, I think its even safe to say that they complement each other Good can exist on its own in a pure form but never Evil.

Hardship and struggle will also strengthen people, their wills will increase, their wisdom and understanding; as they say what ever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. As the Arabian poet Al Mutanabbi have said:

"Without hardship everyone would prevail, The generous are poor, and courage kills its own.”


The poet meant that without hardship & evil everyone will be a leader and the two leading qualities found in leaders that will bring about struggle and hardship is generousness which lead to loss of wealth and courage which might lead to death in wars.

To say that the world if full of evil,misery,suffering and struggle is a very naive and incomplete poor outlook on the realities of life and the world around us; what's even more naive is for an atheist to blame it all on a God which he does not even believe in.

Defender OF Faith

COYVB wrote: »

you would STILL need to be brought up in a culture that teaches about god for you to know about the idea of god though. claiming otherwise shows a gross misunderstanding of the concept

I wasn't claiming otherwise, regardless of the culture your brought up in, the concept of a God and a supernatural creator of this universe will remain universal and basic cross cultural belief that transcend above any cultural bounds. If I visit Brazil or a small African village and ask them if they know about Icelandic Elves its likely that they would not know but if asked about a God or a being that created this universe the response regardless of the culture will be the same.

K4t

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I wasn't claiming otherwise, regardless of the culture your brought up in, the concept of a God and a supernatural creator of this universe will remain universal and basic cross cultural belief that transcend above any cultural bounds. If I visit Brazil or a small African village and ask them if they know about Icelandic Elves its likely that they would not know but if asked about a God or a being that created this universe the response regardless of the culture will be the same.

Exactly (and I love how your two examples are the extremely religious and poor country of Brazil and a small African village which needs no further comment - Clever), it is human nature to believe something else is out there, a creator, a God. And religion feeds off of this need to believe in something. Really, it is religion and organised religion, each with its own beliefs, some different and some common, which are the problem. Religion encourages that trait of human nature which is fear of the unknown. Religion appeals to human nature, but the very worst part of it. The Bible and the Koran have good parts no doubt, but the defining characteristics of Religion, the things which they are really about, are evil. What Religion does well most social organisations do well, tennis clubs, gaa, rotary clubs etc. But what really makes a religion. What is the necessary condition? Faith. And an exclusive faith that trumps other sources of truth is always a bad and extremely dangerous thing. Then of course you have the defenders of faith who proudly and defiantly mention all the great scientists and mathematicians of faith who, as I've already explained, simply give the "real believers" intellectual cover. They understand the very fact that they are engaging in compartmentalization, and these people do not grow up in your Brazilian favela or your small African village. There is no doubt Religion holds humanity back from progressing and inflicts needless pain and suffering in the process.

SaveOurLyric

COYVB wrote: »

you would STILL need to be brought up in a culture that teaches about god for you to know about the idea of god though. claiming otherwise shows a gross misunderstanding of the concept

If you would need to be brought up in a culture that teaches about god for you to know about the idea of god, then, no person can have had the first thought about the idea of a god. So, since people do have an idea of god, it must be a universal, non cultural, and innate. Claiming otherwise shows a gross misunderstanding of the concept.

NachoBusiness

While out to sea a large boat became shipwrecked and there was only one single survivor, a religious man of great faith. This man prayed and asked God to save his life and so sure was he that his prayers would be answered, that when another boat came by and offered the man some help, he replied "No thanks, I'm waiting for God to save me."

The men on the boat shrugged their shoulders and continued. The man's predicament grew worse by the day and at the end of the week when another boat came by he again politely declined the help offered and told those aboard that he was "waiting for God to save" him.

No other boats sailed by and after some time the man began to lose his faith and soon he soon died. Upon reaching Heaven he had a chance to speak with God briefly. "Why did you let me die? Why didn't you answer my prayers?" God replied: "Dummy, I sent you two boats!" "You're a sneaky fcuker" says the man and gives God a kick right in the balls. Moral of the story is don't be a smart arse.

ReefBreak

Seriously, I can't believe there's been 35 pages of people arguing about this.

It's actually very simple:

The planet we're on orbits a star in a fairly remote region of the Milky Way.

This star is one of hundreds of billions of stars in the galaxy. With the aid of the Kepler telescope we now know a large proportion of these stars have planets orbiting them. And once the James Webb telescope is launched, it'll bring a whole new set of exo-planet discoveries.

This galaxy is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe.

This universe is about 14 billion years old, of which humans have been living in for about 30,000 years. Or about 0.0002% of the total life of the universe.

And yet, a significant proportion of the world actually thinks there is a Magic Man that lives in another dimension, is all powerful, and looks human? I mean come on, REALLY? What was he doing for the other 99.9998% of the time before he "created" humans? Indeed, why bother creating the other hundreds of billions of galaxies, and trillions and trillions of stars. Unless...the universe is teeming with life, and as soon as each alien civilisation reaches a certain level of intelligence they're given an equivalent alien Moses/Jesus/Mohammad on their own planet.

Somehow, I doubt this is the case.

K4t

Religious belief, and more importantly devout Catholicism, is thankfully on the decrease in Ireland. But what people forget is that many of the youngest in our society are often also the most religiously conservative, groomed and indoctrinated from a young age, and unfortunately they are also often the most determined to get into positions of power where they can influence policy in this country, often according to their religious beliefs. When Breda O'Brien and David Quinn are on the way out make no mistake that they will have an army ready to replace them, of which their own children could be a part of.

That is why it is so necessary to never stop moving forward as a society and away from this Catholic nonsense, to never stop criticising and questioning religion, because like any disease, if you ignore it and allow it to fester, it will spread. We cannot forget the past transgressions of the Catholic Church and we must constantly be fearful of it ever exerting that kind of power again. As the saying goes, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

The blasphemy law will be repealed which is a start and then hopefully real work can begin on the separation of Church and State, most importantly in a much needed move towards secular schools. The time to make these progressive decisions is now, while the older religious conservatives are on the way out and the younger ones haven't got to a level where they can yet cause problems with their poisonous ideologies. Separation of the Church and State in the Irish constitution is the only way forward for a truly secular and equal society for all.

RobertKK

ReefBreak wrote: »

Seriously, I can't believe there's been 35 pages of people arguing about this.

It's actually very simple:

The planet we're on orbits a star in a fairly remote region of the Milky Way.

This star is one of hundreds of billions of stars in the galaxy. With the aid of the Kepler telescope we now know a large proportion of these stars have planets orbiting them. And once the James Webb telescope is launched, it'll bring a whole new set of exo-planet discoveries.

This galaxy is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe.

This universe is about 14 billion years old, of which humans have been living in for about 30,000 years. Or about 0.0002% of the total life of the universe.

And yet, a significant proportion of the world actually thinks there is a Magic Man that lives in another dimension, is all powerful, and looks human? I mean come on, REALLY? What was he doing for the other 99.9998% of the time before he "created" humans? Indeed, why bother creating the other hundreds of billions of galaxies, and trillions and trillions of stars. Unless...the universe is teeming with life, and as soon as each alien civilisation reaches a certain level of intelligence they're given an equivalent alien Moses/Jesus/Mohammad on their own planet.

Somehow, I doubt this is the case.

Seriously, some of us are on page 13...

...and this is now page 14.

_Whimsical_

K4t wrote: »

Religious belief, and more importantly devout Catholicism, is thankfully on the decrease in Ireland. But what people forget is that many of the youngest in our society are often also the most religiously conservative, groomed and indoctrinated from a young age, and unfortunately they are also often the most determined to get into positions of power where they can influence policy in this country, often according to their religious beliefs. When Breda O'Brien and David Quinn are on the way out make no mistake that they will have an army ready to replace them, of which their own children could be a part of.

Where are these "many" you refer to?
I haven't seen any evidence of their presence. In recent years through gay marriage and abortion debates I can't think of one young person,other than Lucinda Creighton, who has made themselves known as having a catholic perspective. If they're power hungry they're awfully quiet about it.
Surely the very opposite is true, very few young people are religious at all not to mention fervent enough to be aiming for influential office .

feargale

ReefBreak wrote: »

Seriously, I can't believe there's been 35 pages of people arguing about this.
It's actually very simple:
The planet we're on orbits a star in a fairly remote region of the Milky Way. Etc. Etc..

You have made a very valid, rational case that very many will agree with. The difference is that, unlike so many others you have done it without resorting to the usual bullying and baiting and snide ridiculing of people who genuinely believe otherwise, an activity that I'm sure you will have seen yourself on Boards particularly. But I suppose that is a natural reaction against the strictures of boarding school life by those who have just been released from it. One expects better from others who are old enough to know and behave better. Have you ever noticed how many of them speak reverently of their religious mothers whose beliefs they don't share, while mocking other mothers for professing the same beliefs? Of course not all A&A people are assoles. In fact one of them opened a thread about A&A intolerance in which he opined that Christians are more fun. As a non-believer I would go further and say that if my own experience is anything to go by Christians are as a whole, barring some exceptions, nicer people. Europe tore itself apart for centuries over such differences of opinion. Eastern Europe was only marginally better at dealing with them in the 20th century. And today's handling of the same in the Middle East is a disaster. A&A people have genuine concerns about their relationship with the Irish state, not least in the field of education. They are being articulated by spokespeople who have more cop than is being shown by some here, and they are being addressed however slowly. People of different religious and political views have to live together, despite the triumphalist predictions that religion will vanish. Too much A&A stuff is a replication of the worst aspects of Catholic triumphalism witnessed here in the past. If people want to devote their lives to A&A evangelising and proselytising that's their business. But would you trust tomorrow's world to some of the wannabe supremos around here? Many of them will grow out of their bigotry. Sadly, some won't and others are beyond seeing the light.

FanadMan

I've read as far as post 180 and will stop reading any more and finish with a Stephen Fry quote:


Religion. S**t it.

hinault

ReefBreak wrote: »

Seriously, I can't believe there's been 35 pages of people arguing about this.

It's actually very simple:

The planet we're on orbits a star in a fairly remote region of the Milky Way.

This star is one of hundreds of billions of stars in the galaxy. With the aid of the Kepler telescope we now know a large proportion of these stars have planets orbiting them. And once the James Webb telescope is launched, it'll bring a whole new set of exo-planet discoveries.

This galaxy is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe.

This universe is about 14 billion years old, of which humans have been living in for about 30,000 years. Or about 0.0002% of the total life of the universe.

And yet, a significant proportion of the world actually thinks there is a Magic Man that lives in another dimension, is all powerful, and looks human? I mean come on, REALLY? What was he doing for the other 99.9998% of the time before he "created" humans? Indeed, why bother creating the other hundreds of billions of galaxies, and trillions and trillions of stars. Unless...the universe is teeming with life, and as soon as each alien civilisation reaches a certain level of intelligence they're given an equivalent alien Moses/Jesus/Mohammad on their own planet.

Somehow, I doubt this is the case.

Many accept that God was the cause for the creation of what we call the Universe.

And actually if you read the first few lines of the Book of Genesis, it records that God created light before he created Earth, the stars, the Sun and all the rest of the universe.

Why does Genesis record that God created light first? Obviously whoever wrote Genesis was more than aware that in order to create anything you need energy/light.

If a Scripture written centuries ago was able to identify the fundamental property, light, to create substances, that knowledge appears to predate by centuries our limited understanding of what is the cause of creation.

COYVB

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I wasn't claiming otherwise, regardless of the culture your brought up in, the concept of a God and a supernatural creator of this universe will remain universal and basic cross cultural belief that transcend above any cultural bounds. If I visit Brazil or a small African village and ask them if they know about Icelandic Elves its likely that they would not know but if asked about a God or a being that created this universe the response regardless of the culture will be the same.

Not every culture believes in a single god. Not every culture that has religion necessarily believes in a creator either. Your concept of a god doesn't extend quite as far as you might think

NachoBusiness

Brand gives his transcendental tuppence..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Run1jpZvS4

Mellor

hinault wrote: »

Many accept that God was the cause for the creation of what we call the Universe.

And actually if you read the first few lines of the Book of Genesis, it records that God created light before he created Earth, the stars, the Sun and all the rest of the universe.

Why does Genesis record that God created light first? Obviously whoever wrote Genesis was more than aware that in order to create anything you need energy/light.

If a Scripture written centuries ago was able to identify the fundamental property, light, to create substances, that knowledge appears to predate by centuries our limited understanding of what is the cause of creation.

Oh really?
Lets check that for a second.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/genesis/documents/bible_genesis_en.html

(Lets ignore that it also also says that he did all of that in 7 days. Which is kinda of ignoring the 14 billion year teabreak he must of taken in the middle.)

So according to genesis;

He created light, then
...the dome above, aka the sky,
...dry land, the earth
...plants and trees,
...sun and the stars
...then sea creatures and birds
...then insects and animals
...finally mankind.

So created the earth before the sun, the stars, and the rest of the universe. Which makes your entire point moot.
He created the insects before mankind had a chance to sin. (in reply to somebody's ridiculous Adam and Eve post)

If the author had access to all this divine understand of creation, isn't it a bit strange that he is describing a flat earth.
But the strangest part of this of Genesis, is that God never created the water. It was already there. Sure he moved it about, gave it a name. But he never created the water. It was already there, before the light, chilling in the dark.

So did scripture identify that light is fundamental property of creation?
No, they simply grasped that nobody works in the dark.

Now, about that 14 billion year tea-break.

Ghost Buster

Mellor wrote: »

Oh really?
Lets check that for a second.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/genesis/documents/bible_genesis_en.html

(Lets ignore that it also also says that he did all of that in 7 days. Which is kinda of ignoring the 14 billion year teabreak he must of taken in the middle.)

So according to genes
He created light, then
...the dome above, aka the sky,
...dry land, the earth
...plants and trees,
...sun and the stars
...then sea creatures and bird
...then insects and animals
...finally mankind.

So created the earth before the sun, the stars, and the rest of the universe. Which makes your entire point moot.
He created the insects before mankind had a chance to sin. (in reply to somebody's ridiculous Adam and Eve post)

If the author had access to all this divine understand of creation, isn't it a bit strange that he is describing a flat eart
But the strangest part of this of Genesis, is that God never created the water. It was already there. Sure he moved it about, gave it a name. But he never created the water. It was already there, before the light, chilling in the dark.

So did scripture identify that light is fundamental property of creation?
No, they simply grasped that nobody works in the dar

Now, about that 14 billion year tea-break.

If he didn't create the sun til the 5th day.......... how could days have passed?

danrua01

Ghost Buster wrote: »

If he didn't create the sun til the 5th day.......... how could days have passed?

Himself was orbiting a teapot.

Mellor

Ghost Buster wrote: »

If he didn't create the sun til the 5th day.......... how could days have passed?

Because he created "the light" :rolleyes
So as well as thinking the workd was flat, this astro-physicist author failed to grasp the subs role in night and day.

Divine understanding indeed

Donkey Oaty

Mellor wrote: »

Now, about that 14 billion year tea-break.

Ghost Buster wrote: »

If he didn't create the sun til the 5th day.......... how could days have passed?

There are answers to these questions that are entirely logical and consistent with the teachings of the church, and also reconcile the current scientific view of the world with the Biblical narrative.

Unfortunately we are too sinful to find out what they are, or something, so it is a waste of time trying to pry into the mysteries of the Almighty.

Is there anything good on the telly tonight?

Dan_Solo

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Brand gives his transcendental tuppence..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Run1jpZvS4

Brand is proof there is no god. Or if there is he's a c**t.

Dan_Solo

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

There are answers to these questions that are entirely logical and consistent with the teachings of the church, and also reconcile the current scientific view of the world with the Biblical narrative.

Unfortunately we are too sinful to find out what they are, or something, so it is a waste of time trying to pry into the mysteries of the Almighty.

Is there anything good on the telly tonight?

If it fits with what we can prove it's Science Bible. If it doesn't it's Magic Bible.
If it's possible it's Historical Bible. If it's laughable it's Allegorical Bible.

pueblo

DublinWriter wrote: »

...yet we are allegedly made its image?

I absolutely *love* that cover all answer "Oh, we shall never know his ways and true intentions" that's used when the tricky questions about children with cancer get thrown about.

The tricky questions of suffering and evil in the world aren't as tricky as they appear.

We have free will, we have been left to our own devices in this world. Suffering exists because we are temporal creatures, we live, we die. Dying quite often involves pain. Life too involves pain. It's part of being human.

Evil exists because it exists inside us all. If we choose the evil inside us we see evil results and actions. If we choose the good then we see the opposite.

Dublinwriter, if God exists and if it is true as you say 'that we will never know his ways' then it certainly is a 'cover all'.

Just because you don't understand quantum mechanics, doesn't mean black holes don't exist, maybe you don't believe in black holes because you personally cannot confirm or deny their existence?

K4t

K4t wrote: »

That is why it is so necessary to never stop moving forward as a society and away from this Catholic nonsense, to never stop criticising and questioning religion, because like any disease, if you ignore it and allow it to fester, it will spread. We cannot forget the past transgressions of the Catholic Church and we must constantly be fearful of it ever exerting that kind of power again. As the saying goes, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

You posting is highly offensive to Catholics you know that, I don't even know why you are allowed post the bile you are spewing.

Dan_Solo

pueblo wrote: »

We have free will, we have been left to our own devices in this world.

How can god tell the future if he gave us free will? Revelation is all a bit pointless if we've decided to be good children, no?

Dan_Solo

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You posting is highly offensive to Catholics you know that, I don't even know why you are allowed post the bile you are spewing.

As long as the church is inextricably tied into the Irish state and the education system, I'm afraid I'll be taking far more offence at the Catholic side of this argument.

danrua01

I don't understand why we can't just accept that people have different beliefs and get on with our lives. I believe in one thing, you believe in the other, your thinking doesn't affect my life, nor mine yours...just carry on!

Dan_Solo

danrua01 wrote: »

I don't understand why we can't just accept that people have different beliefs and get on with our lives. I believe in one thing, you believe in the other, your thinking doesn't affect my life, nor mine yours...just carry on!

See the post immediately above yours.
The existence of the catholic church and religions in general most certainly does affect my life and everybody in Ireland whether they like it or not.

danrua01

Fair enough. Thankfully it doesn't affect me at all so that's good!

Kirby

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You posting is highly offensive to Catholics you know that, I don't even know why you are allowed post the bile you are spewing.

I might choose to take offense at the spider camped out in the corner of my room. Tell me....is that the spiders fault? Or mine. The spiders issue? Or mine. Should the spider be not allowed to exist because I choose to find it offensive?

You can choose to take offense to whatever you want. Because it's a choice.

Be glad you live such a privileged existence that you can sit there and be offended.

kunst nugget

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You posting is highly offensive to Catholics you know that, I don't even know why you are allowed post the bile you are spewing.

Tbf, it's only offensive to you if you let it be. Also, considering the pervasive influence of the Catholic Church in this country and the legacy it has in relation to human rights abuses of some of the most vulnerable in society means that many are unwilling to forgive the Church.

I think, however, that our treatment of asylum seekers in detention centres around the country shows that we are, as a nation, more than capable of being horrible arses without the influence of the Catholic Church.

folan

danrua01 wrote: »

I believe in one thing, you believe in the other, your thinking doesn't affect my life, nor mine yours...just carry on!

3 stupid areas where christian beliefs affect life in Ireland:
1) St. Patricks day being a bank holiday
2) Good Friday and buying alcohol.
3) Listening to people bitch about how christmas starts earlier every year.

3 real areas where christian beliefs affect life in Ireland:
1) Gay rights
2) A womans right to choose
3) Issues around the legality of the declaration of the President of Ireland

Kirby

Kirby wrote: »

I might choose to take offense at the spider camped out in the corner of my room. Tell me....is that the spiders fault? Or mine. The spiders issue? Or mine. Should the spider be not allowed to exist because I choose to find it offensive?

You can choose to take offense to whatever you want. Because it's a choice.

Be glad you live such a privileged existence that you can sit there and be offended.

Please, he is attacking Catholics by calling their religion a "disease" many other offensive terms.

You analogy with a spider is stupid.

If I went and kicked you in the face would you be offended? The posts by that (and many other) posters are along the lines of that.

Dan_Solo

danrua01 wrote: »

Fair enough. Thankfully it doesn't affect me at all so that's good!

It does, which isn't good.

kunst nugget

danrua01 wrote: »

I don't understand why we can't just accept that people have different beliefs and get on with our lives. I believe in one thing, you believe in the other, your thinking doesn't affect my life, nor mine yours...just carry on!

That is never going to be the reality of the situation though. Especially in a country where the school system is completely in hock to one religious doctrine.

danrua01

folan wrote: »

3 stupid areas where christian beliefs affect life in Ireland:
1) St. Patricks day being a bank holiday
2) Good Friday and buying alcohol.
3) Listening to people bitch about how christmas starts earlier every year.

3 real areas where christian beliefs affect life in Ireland:
1) Gay rights
2) A womans right to choose
3) Issues around the legality of the declaration of the President of Ireland

I suppose you're right there. The first three I'd personally put down as being trivial annoyances, but the rest are huge issues, absolutely...

Dan_Solo

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

Please, he is attacking Catholics by calling their religion a "disease" many other offensive terms.

You analogy with a spider is laughably stupid.

If I went you and kicked you in the face would you be offended? The posts by that (and many other) posters are along the lines of that.

If you kicked my beliefs in the face I wouldn't be in the slightest offended.
(you're making about as much sense here mate)

RobertKK

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As long as the church is inextricably tied into the Irish state and the education system, I'm afraid I'll be taking far more offence at the Catholic side of this argument.

Well then you are blaming the wrong group. The Catholic and Protestant education system was there before the state.

It was the state who chose the education system that religious groups set up to educate the people when there was no education, like at the time of the penal laws when Catholics were forbidden an education.

I remember Bertie said that what religious groups provide in education has saved the state billions.

The problem is religious groups have put education as being very important and were proactive, those against it just moan and want everything handed to them.

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If you kicked my beliefs in the face I wouldn't be in the slightest offended.
(you're making about as much sense here mate)

A person and their beliefs are one in the same.