Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

floggg

floggg wrote: »

This couldn't be further from the truth.

We already pay heavily through taxes for our education system.

So I don't want anything handed to anybody - and that goes for state funding for religious education.

I simply want my tax money spent on an impartial, objective, secular education system.

You will pay a lot more heavily if the church pulls all their property from use due to people pushing for the removal of teaching the catholic faith in schools. After all it would be ridiculous to if it wasn't taught in a catholic school owned by the church.

That's a lot of new schools that would have to be built....

floggg

Montallie wrote: »

That reminds me of the New Testament story where the disciples ask Jesus, 'Was it this man or his parents who sinned that he was born blind?' One tiny little mention of reincarnation that somehow got left in when the rest was removed.

What was JC's answer?

shruikan2553

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You will pay a lot more heavily if the church pulls all their property from use due to people pushing for the removal of teaching the catholic faith in schools. After all it would be ridiculous to if it wasn't taught in a catholic school owned by the church.

That's a lot of new schools that would have to be built....

Doesnt the patron only pay 5-10% of the costs of land and buildings anyway?

floggg

RobertKK wrote: »

Well that is the problem, some people focus on the religious faith of the school, rather than the educational outcome.

It is the religions instruction that people object to - which doesn't add anything of (objective) value to the educational outcomes.

The State should also not fund schools which can fear people due to their sexual orientation, or even for having a child out of wedlock which I believe happened in the past, nor that teach people that homosexuality is wrong, women are inferior (mainly an issue for islamic schools I'd say) etc.

danrua01

My issue with the Catholic Church is the money spent on churches. Way too extravagant. You just need a normal building that people can come and worship in, the rest could be spent to help those in need. But I suppose everyone has some greed in them.

ScumLord

floggg wrote: »

This couldn't be further from the truth.

We already pay heavily through taxes for our education system.

While we do now the Christianity would have been instrumental in developing the education system in Ireland. Christianity did spark the initial drive to educate people on the island.

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You will pay a lot more heavily if the church pulls all their property from use due to people pushing for the removal of teaching the catholic faith in schools. After all it would be ridiculous to if it wasn't taught in a catholic school owned by the church.

That's a lot of new schools that would have to be built....

That doesn't mean we shouldn't start building our own schools. We should gradually replace those Catholic schools. It doesn't make sense for a country to depend on a charity organisation (charity in that's how they get their daily income) to fund our schools. What if the Catholic church ran into funding problems and couldn't afford to contribute to our education system?

Dan_Solo

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You will pay a lot more heavily if the church pulls all their property from use due to people pushing for the removal of teaching the catholic faith in schools. After all it would be ridiculous to if it wasn't taught in a catholic school owned by the church.

That's a lot of new schools that would have to be built....

Which are all paid for by the state anyway.
Do you think religious orders are paying for school construction out of their own pockets? Shure.

kunst nugget

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You will pay a lot more heavily if the church pulls all their property from use due to people pushing for the removal of teaching the catholic faith in schools. After all it would be ridiculous to if it wasn't taught in a catholic school owned by the church.

That's a lot of new schools that would have to be built....

Considering most funding for school buildings and wages comes from the state, in a hypothetical situation if the Church pulled out of all schools, I'd imagine emergency legislation would be enacted to compulsorily purchase the land the schools were on.

Terrlock

danrua01 wrote: »

My issue with the Catholic Church is the money spent on churches. Way too extravagant. You just need a normal building that people can come and worship in, the rest could be spent to help those in need. But I suppose everyone has some greed in them.

As a Christian, the catholic church has many more issues then simply extravagant buildings.

Catholic Church != Christianity.

ScumLord

danrua01 wrote: »

My issue with the Catholic Church is the money spent on churches. Way too extravagant. You just need a normal building that people can come and worship in, the rest could be spent to help those in need. But I suppose everyone has some greed in them.

How the church wants to spend it's money is up to them. I'd be disappointed, in fact I am disappointed by the current lack of impressive churches. I can appreciate the buildings, they've been a driving force behind human architectural achievements over the past thousand years and there's been some stunning buildings created. To be fair religion has inspired people to create some of the greatest art in history.

floggg

RobertKK wrote: »

No, they used it to mean Jew, a person of Jewish faith given the perceived power and influence the Nazis believed the Jews had in society.

While I don't think you can religion didn't come into it, it was clearly largely based on perceived ethnicity rather than the holding of jewish beliefs. See wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Ideology_and_scale

Anyone with three or four Jewish grandparents was to be exterminated without exception. In other genocides, people were able to escape death by converting to another religion or in some other way assimilating. This option was not available to the Jews of occupied Europe,[28] unless their grandparents had converted before 18 January 1871. All persons of recent Jewish ancestry were to be exterminated in lands controlled by Germany.[29]

If it was primarily about beliefs, the beliefs of your grandparents would not be relevant.

danrua01

danrua01 wrote: »

My issue with the Catholic Church is the money spent on churches. Way too extravagant. You just need a normal building that people can come and worship in, the rest could be spent to help those in need. But I suppose everyone has some greed in them.

This shows how little people know. Churches really struggle to get funds together to pay for their upkeep. Parishes are reliant on donations for the most part to fix roofs, heat the churches etc. Parishes have to be self sufficient there is no funding coming from outside.

pueblo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

LOL. You want us to investigate dark matter by studiously avoiding logic... so we can just say we know what it is now. It's a fish.

“Anything that thinks logically can be fooled by something else that thinks at least as logically as it does.”
- Douglas Adams - The Hitchhikers Trilogy

danrua01

ScumLord wrote: »

How the church wants to spend it's money is up to them. I'd be disappointed, in fact I am disappointed by the current lack of impressive churches. I can appreciate the buildings, they've been a driving force behind human architectural achievements over the past thousand years and there's been some stunning buildings created. To be fair religion has inspired people to create some of the greatest art in history.

Surely, some are spectacular, but what for they represent, shouldn't they put it to good use? It just seems to be that it goes against the whole "eye of a needle" thing.

danrua01

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

This shows how little people know. Churches really struggle to get funds together to pay for their upkeep. Parishes are reliant on donations for the most part to fix roofs, heat the churches etc. Parishes have to be self sufficient there is no funding coming from outside.

I know that myself, but that wasn't my point at all. Get money and fix the roof, just don't also take money and get a gold-plated roof.

floggg

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

If we need laws against murder to defend the fact murder is wrong you must be very scared of the alternatives.

I we need laws against................ and so on.

The majority of people in Ireland are catholic, the disproportionate number of atheists who post here doesn't change that.

We are very scared of the alternatives to the prohibtion of murder though. That would be carnage.

Aren't you?

I am not scared of anybody espousing views on religion I disagree with though - only of them trying to force them upon me.

lucernarian

Zaph wrote: »

Gay Byrne looks like someone p*ssed in his cornflakes when Fry gave his answer. If you're not prepared to hear answers you don't like, then don't ask the question.

I don't see why having a grimace on your face really means anything about not being prepared. If he said something to criticise Stephen Fry then sure I'd see your point. Life is full of examples of people asking questions and getting uncomfortable answers, so what if he looks dismayed. Looking like someone pissed in his cornflakes, that's a stretch.

floggg

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I spoken about this subject on a subsequent post which you appeared to have missed whereby a Poster argued that because of the Evils in the world an All loving God cannot exist turning the argument into a refutation to God existence rather then a discussion of his nature; so I will quote it here:

That was not my argument.

My argument is that if god existed, then because of the evils in this world, he is either a dick or not as powerful and all seeing as he claims.

In which case he is a liar, so would still be kind of a dick.

ScumLord

danrua01 wrote: »

Surely, some are spectacular, but what for they represent, shouldn't they put it to good use? It just seems to be that it goes against the whole "eye of a needle" thing.

They are tools for communicating a person's feeling of god. If you go into the likes of notre dam it is awe inspiring. It does fill you with this sense of something great. They are a perfect representation of what the people are trying to communicate. They are works of art in their own right and for that reason I think they're pretty much perfect, well the good ones are but even the most basic ones seem to be good at communicating atmosphere and emotion.

I don't think they relate to the "eye of the needle" saying because they are public works of art. I think any person should be able to appreciate them they are fantastic achievements made by real people, they belong to human heritage.

Terrlock

This topic isn't really around belief in God, it's around confronting God.

Stephen Fry will drastically change his mind when he finally does get to confront God or more God confronts him.

No one has to prove God's existence, Everyone knows that God does exist, but many simply deny it in unrighteousness and God gives them over to their own delusions.

To try and prove to someone that God exists, is making the person the Judge and putting God on trial.

Why is there suffering and evil in this world? That is answered in scripture very well.

floggg

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

You will pay a lot more heavily if the church pulls all their property from use due to people pushing for the removal of teaching the catholic faith in schools. After all it would be ridiculous to if it wasn't taught in a catholic school owned by the church.

That's a lot of new schools that would have to be built....

Well we could have done a trade for letting them off the hook for all the abuse compo.

Don't worry, they will be bankrupt here in a few years, so we can snap them up cheap.

Hard to generate much gate receipts when primary school science class debunks much of your faith.

Dan_Solo

pueblo wrote: »

“Anything that thinks logically can be fooled by something else that thinks at least as logically as it does.”
- Douglas Adams - The Hitchhikers Trilogy

That's a first. Being fed Douglas Adams as evidence there's a god.
The devil can quote scripture as they say.

floggg

ScumLord wrote: »

While we do now the Christianity would have been instrumental in developing the education system in Ireland. Christianity did spark the initial drive to educate people on the island.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't start building our own schools. We should gradually replace those Catholic schools. It doesn't make sense for a country to depend on a charity organisation (charity in that's how they get their daily income) to fund our schools. What if the Catholic church ran into funding problems and couldn't afford to contribute to our education system?

Yes, agreed. But I think that the church got just as much out of that as it put back in.

It was probably the largest landowner in the state at a time when we were dirt poor, and had more than its fair share of influence in political, educational and health matters. We are still trying to undo some of that influence.

It has also had the state supporting RC education for how many years now, as well as building lots of the school buildings currently in use.

So I think they have been well compensated for any services rendered.

Stealthfins

What Stephen Fry said in spades Dawkins said in diamonds, Hitchins said in clubs and so on...

I can't see why people are getting their knickers in a twist.

Atheists, theists, woo people, wizards, fairies, goblins, spiritualist's.....

Normal people. ..

mikom

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's a first. Being fed Douglas Adams as evidence there's a god.
The devil can quote scripture as they say.

"So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish"....... and the loaves...

Dan_Solo

Terrlock wrote: »

Why is there suffering and evil in this world? That is answered in scripture very well.

Where? That bit about the 7 days, the bit about women shutting their trap or that mad ****e about the bears?

danrua01

ScumLord wrote: »

They are tools for communicating a person's feeling of god. If you go into the likes of notre dam it is awe inspiring. It does fill you with this sense of something great. They are a perfect representation of what the people are trying to communicate. They are works of art in their own right and for that reason I think they're pretty much perfect, well the good ones are but even the most basic ones seem to be good at communicating atmosphere and emotion.

I don't think they relate to the "eye of the needle" saying because they are public works of art. I think any person should be able to appreciate them they are fantastic achievements made by real people, they belong to human heritage.

Hmmm, I still disagree. You shouldn't need a man-made thing to feel the presence of your faith, but that's fine. Don't you think it would be money better spent to help people who need it, and wouldn't it set a much better image?

floggg

floggg wrote: »

Hard to generate much gate receipts when primary school science class debunks much of your faith.

Yet I have studied Physics for 9 years and it hasn't effected my faith. Nothing is being debunked.

As I've said on other threads, from my experience numbers attending mass are on the rise again after a low point a few years ago.

floggg

ScumLord wrote: »

How the church wants to spend it's money is up to them. I'd be disappointed, in fact I am disappointed by the current lack of impressive churches. I can appreciate the buildings, they've been a driving force behind human architectural achievements over the past thousand years and there's been some stunning buildings created. To be fair religion has inspired people to create some of the greatest art in history.

Meh.

When I see the magnificent churches and old buildings in places like Paris or London, I always find myself thinking about where the wealth for such splendour came from at a when time when most had nothing.

Usually off the backs of the peasantry, or plundered from other countries and peoples. So I am personally happy to pass on splendid old buildings here myself.

Dan_Solo

Terrlock wrote: »

This topic isn't really around belief in God, it's around confronting God.

I'd like to confront god now please. And call him a cnut.
Could you get onto your angel friends about making an appointment? Ta.

jobbridge4life

floggg wrote: »

Meh.

When I see the magnificent churches and old buildings in places like Paris or London, I always find myself thinking about where the wealth for such splendour came from at a when time when most had nothing.

Usually off the backs of the peasantry, or plundered from other countries and peoples. So I am personally happy to pass on splendid old buildings here myself.

The same could be said of virtually anything. Do you look into your smart phone and picture the dead hands of those suffering as result of conflict minerals? What about slave labour in the factory that makes components.

dark crystal

Terrlock wrote: »

This topic isn't really around belief in God, it's around confronting God.

Stephen Fry will drastically change his mind when he finally does get to confront God or more God confronts him.

No one has to prove God's existence, Everyone knows that God does exist, but many simply deny it in unrighteousness and God gives them over to their own delusions.

To try and prove to someone that God exists, is making the person the Judge and putting God on trial.

Why is there suffering and evil in this world? That is answered in scripture very well.

Do you believe Steven Fry will be in more trouble with God for not believing than believers who carry out heinous acts in his name?

Also, you are telling a lie when you say everyone knows God exists. Lies aren't good. The bible tells us so.

floggg

Terrlock wrote: »

This topic isn't really around belief in God, it's around confronting God.

Stephen Fry will drastically change his mind when he finally does get to confront God or more God confronts him.

No one has to prove God's existence, Everyone knows that God does exist, but many simply deny it in unrighteousness and God gives them over to their own delusions.

To try and prove to someone that God exists, is making the person the Judge and putting God on trial.

Why is there suffering and evil in this world? That is answered in scripture very well.

Lol.

Sorry but sometimes its the only response for Christians who cannot even comprehend the idea that others wouldn't buy into their beliefs. My respect only goes so far.

PopePalpatine

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

If we need laws against murder to defend the fact murder is wrong you must be very scared of the alternatives.

I we need laws against................ and so on.

The majority of people in Ireland are catholic, the disproportionate number of atheists who post here doesn't change that.

The difference is that murder is an offence against a real person, blasphemy isn't.

ScumLord

Terrlock wrote: »

No one has to prove God's existence, Everyone knows that God does exist, but many simply deny it in unrighteousness and God gives them over to their own delusions

What self indulgent nonsense. Everyone doesn't just believe in god, we wouldn't be having this conversation if that was the case.

floggg wrote: »

Yes, agreed. But I think that the church got just as much out of that as it put back in.

The church became obscenely powerful as a result of spreading christianity but back then it was a good package. Christians would show up, would often teach you how to read and write, offered a medical service, connection to the European continent and more, fantastic stories, loads of merchandise. It would have been hugely appealing to Irish people at the time.

danrua01 wrote: »

Hmmm, I still disagree. You shouldn't need a man-made thing to feel the presence of your faith, but that's fine. Don't you think it would be money better spent to help people who need it, and wouldn't it set a much better image?

You don't need the great big church, it's fan art basically.

floggg wrote: »

Meh.

When I see the magnificent churches and old buildings in places like Paris or London, I always find myself thinking about where the wealth for such splendour came from at a when time when most had nothing.

Usually off the backs of the peasantry, or plundered from other countries and peoples. So I am personally happy to pass on splendid old buildings here myself.

It was par for the course at the time, human societies were just more violent back then, you can't really judge them by todays standards because the fact is if you were born back then you'd be just as bad as them.

floggg

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

Yet I have studied Physics for 9 years and it hasn't effected my faith. Nothing is being debunked.

As I've said on other threads, from my experience numbers attending mass are on the rise again after a low point a few years ago.

Sorry, you're right. Its not debuked - its just been allegorised :rolleyes:

floggg

jobbridge4life wrote: »

The same could be said of virtually anything. Do you look into your smart phone and picture the dead hands of those suffering as result of conflict minerals? What about slave labour in the factory that makes components.

Yes.

Sometimes it does trouble me that I choose to use smart phones and laptops knowing that my demand is fueling conflict in the Congo.

Same goes for clothes.

Like most humans though I tend to only feel guilty about these things when confronted with them. Huge **** off buildings are quite confronting!

Also, I am not talking just about churches - when I see massive palaces and such I have the same reaction.

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

The same could be said of virtually anything. Do you look into your smart phone and picture the dead hands of those suffering as result of conflict minerals? What about slave labour in the factory that makes components.

At least the smartphone is a communication device that works. I tried talking to God in a church and I heard nothing back. I think the Holy Trinity needs to get 4G in…

Dan_Solo

floggg wrote: »

Sorry, you're right. Its not debuked - its just been allegorised :rolleyes:

Believable? Literal truth.
Laughable? Metaphor.
That's the immutable infallible word of god. Well it was last week anyway before science explained something else.

Dan_Solo

kunst nugget wrote: »

I think the Holy Trinity needs to get 4G in…

Why, is 3G not enough? Or is that 1G? I never did get that shamrock thing...

floggg

ScumLord wrote: »

The church became obscenely powerful as a result of spreading christianity but back then it was a good package. Christians would show up, would often teach you how to read and write, offered a medical service, connection to the European continent and more, fantastic stories, loads of merchandise. It would have been hugely appealing to Irish people at the time.

Sorry, but the church coming to new lands was rarely a good package.

The church was more often an agent of destruction in colonized lands - enforcing its views, destroying social and political systems, legitimising appalling atrocities done in the name of progress, and opening up communities for exploration and exploitation by european agents.

The church played a shameful role in many colonisations.

Terrlock

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'd like to confront god now please. And call him a cnut.
Could you get onto your angel friends about making an appointment? Ta.

I don't pray to Angels.

However I will pray to Christ Jesus on your behalf.

I pray that he gives you eyes and ears so you can both see and hear the truth.

I pray that he will grant you a will of repentance and grant you the ability to turn from a person of the world to a child of the lord.

Not because it benefits me or God, it's because I would not like you to suffer just because of foolish ignorance and pride.

If your are unwilling for this to happen right now, then I pray that your life is not cut short so you have every chance to come into repentance.

RobertKK

floggg wrote: »

This couldn't be further from the truth.

We already pay heavily through taxes for our education system.

So I don't want anything handed to anybody - and that goes for state funding for religious education.

I simply want my tax money spent on an impartial, objective, secular education system.

A poll by the education department of certain schools found most didn't want to change their school from a faith school to something else.

They are taught the national curriculum, with good education outcomes.

Dan_Solo

Terrlock wrote: »

I don't pray to Angels.

However I will pray to Christ Jesus on your behalf.

I pray that he gives you eyes and ears so you can both see and hear the truth.

I pray that he will grant you a will of repentance and grant you the ability to turn from a person of the world to a child of the lord.

Not because it benefits me or God, it's because I would not like you to suffer just because of foolish ignorance and pride.

If your are unwilling for this to happen right now, then I pray that your life is not cut short so you have every chance to come into repentance.

If your god existed I would laugh in his face. Unfortunately I can only laugh in the face of things that exist.
So HAHAHA.

seamus

Terrlock wrote: »

However I will pray to Christ Jesus on your behalf.

I pray that he gives you eyes and ears so you can both see and hear the truth.

I pray that he will grant you a will of repentance and grant you the ability to turn from a person of the world to a child of the lord.

Not because it benefits me or God, it's because I would not like you to suffer just because of foolish ignorance and pride.

So, Jesus Christ has the power to "grant you a will of repentance and grant you the ability to turn from a person of the world to a child of the lord" and to "[give] you eyes and ears so you can both see and hear the truth", yet he chooses not to, until you pray to him on Dan_Solo's behalf.

What's the deal there? Why does he require prayer before he'll save someone from suffering? He would rather you stroke his ego than selflessly save someone from suffering?

pueblo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's a first. Being fed Douglas Adams as evidence there's a god.
The devil can quote scripture as they say.

Just to be precise I have never argued there is a God.

I have only argued that if there is a God then logic is of little use in trying to understand him.

“God cautions us in Isaiah 55:9 that his ways are not ours and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts (undoubtedly one of the grander understatements).

God is warning us that he is not logical and that believing him to be logical will lead to all kinds of disappointment.

Logic has been defined as 'the science or history of the human mind, as it traces the progress of our knowledge from our first conceptions through their different combinations, and the numerous deductions that result from comparing them with one another.'

Doesn't sound much like God. Yet, we so often strain our relatively minuscule brains to conceive, combine, compare, and deduce. Then we fault God when his conclusions disagree.

The repetition of this useless exercise leads to a form of insanity which ultimately manifests in denial of the existence of such an illogical God.”
― Ron Brackin

floggg

RobertKK wrote: »

A poll by the education department of certain schools found most didn't want to change their school from a faith school to something else.

They are taught the national curriculum, with good education outcomes.

That's thanks to the national curriculum, not the church though.

What is the education department of certain schools meant to mean? Care to be less cryptic? Links?

And this issue shouldn't be decided by the schools. It should be decided by the state on behalf of all tax payers and bearing in mind our secular nature.

Dan_Solo

RobertKK wrote: »

A poll by the education department of certain schools found most didn't want to change their school from a faith school to something else.

No link. Opaque pseudofacts with terminology that could mean just about anything.
I couldn't even comment on whether that's sh1te or not it means so little.

danrua01

Terrlock wrote: »

I don't pray to Angels.

However I will pray to Christ Jesus on your behalf.

I pray that he gives you eyes and ears so you can both see and hear the truth.

I pray that he will grant you a will of repentance and grant you the ability to turn from a person of the world to a child of the lord.

Not because it benefits me or God, it's because I would not like you to suffer just because of foolish ignorance and pride.

If your are unwilling for this to happen right now, then I pray that your life is not cut short so you have every chance to come into repentance.

Why force your religion on someone else?

Dan_Solo

pueblo wrote: »

Just to be precise I have never argued there is a God.

I have only argued that if there is a God then logic is of little use in trying to understand him.

“God cautions us in Isaiah 55:9 that his ways are not ours and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts (undoubtedly one of the grander understatements).

FFS, you can't say you're not arguing there's a god and then try to tell me there is by quoting the bible. If you're insisting logic is not important, then why not just type "ejifo\shglser" and do a little jig? It would be just as useful in a discussion.