Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

floggg

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well what sort of god would it be if he for example wished the eye worms out of existance? Someone else would be saying, that was really mean!

You see what happens when you start playing god! You think you are doing the right thing but then you annoy someone else! Probably can see now why he wouldn't intervene. When you fix one thing you end up breaking something else. You solve one problem and create another.

Surely he could have just not made it in the first place, or made it to eat something else other than human eyes

floggg

Shrap wrote: »

Preaching to the converted here K4t! BTW, paragraphs will help your pretty intelligent posts be read in full.

I'll admit I never actually read them in full. Walls of text make my head hurt.

niamhstokes

Why do bad things happen to good people?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/articles/theology/badthingshappen.html

floggg

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Fair post thanks for getting back
But I have to add then there is nothing wrong with athiest-bashing too.

atheist bashing would be an assault and possible hate crime.

Of course atheism bashing would be entirely legal.

Though since atheism isn't a belief, but the absence of one, it's hard to intelligently bash.

floggg

RobertKK wrote: »

No, an intellectual could use Harry Potter and totally change the story, because the intellectual is correct and not the person who wrote the book.
Well that is how people treat Stephen Fry when he does religion. Talk about the Judeo Christian God, but then totally ignore the source of information on that God to make up one's own version so to change the character of God or why the book says something exists in the world.

You get the gullible going 'he is so right, what a horrible God', and 'Love Stephen Fry. he is such an intellectual'.
Some say the bible is akin to fairy tales, yet accept the fairy tales of Stephen Fry.

i love how you ignored the various posts pointing out the flaw in the genesis account - namely that Adam and Eve could only bring even unto the world if God gave them the capacity to do so.

Ergo, God dunnit.

Dan_Solo

niamhstokes wrote: »

Why do bad things happen to good people?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/articles/theology/badthingshappen.html

Is making us read that drivel a bad thing happening to good people?
Just from page 1 is all the stuff we've been through many times here already. Why does god need to prepare us for anything through suffering? What's the point? What does he get out of it?

Ush1

The holy stone of Clonrichert.

floggg

Grayson wrote: »

Rejecting a fairy tale is not a fairy tale. I'm not sure if you were ever actually told what a fairytale is.

Besides the god in the bible murders masses and inflicts horrific amounts of pain. He also induces his followers to commit genocide, torture, rape and a host of other crimes. That God can in no way be called nice or just or loving. That god is evil.

And even without the bible, if we look at the world around us, can we honestly draw a conclusion that there is a loving God?
The watchmaker analogy is an argument loved by Christians. It states that if we look at the world we can therefore assume there is a designer. If we use the same logic then we can assume that God is evil. We can draw assumptions from the nature of the world just like they use for intelligent design.
The world is harsh and cruel. It';s nasty. there's horrific infections and parasites. There's predators. the only kindness in the world comes from humans. And humans are just as nasty as they are kind.
If this world has a designer it's clear that He/She didn't love the inhabitants that were placed here.

The warch maker analogy is stupid. The complexity of the earth is what argues against a god for me.

If you were an all powerful god with the power to invent the laws of physics and chemistry, why would you make them all so complex?

That's certainly not the type of stuff we can conjure into being in seven days.

niamhstokes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZwJDPaWsaA

floggg

seamus wrote: »

Let's not forget that Adam and Eve were created without an understand of the difference between good and evil, yet God expected them to understand that eating from the tree of knowledge was evil. And then punished them for doing wrong when they lacked the ability to understand what that means.

The whole creation narrative is such a logical mess, you couldn't even make a bad B-movie out of it.

so instead they made an appalling A-Movie out of the Noah myth!

Dan_Solo

niamhstokes wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZwJDPaWsaA

I don't want to.
Thank god for free will.
(though we still can't seem to get a theist to tell us what that is)

niamhstokes

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't want to.
Thank god for free will.
(though we still can't seem to get a theist to tell us what that is)

The Secrets of Fatima Mother Mary told us.

floggg

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Is making us read that drivel a bad thing happening to good people?
Just from page 1 is all the stuff we've been through many times here already. Why does god need to prepare us for anything through suffering? What's the point? What does he get out of it?

Life is all one big S&M session to god.

Calibos

You know religion is a problem when even random Palestinians surveyed in Hebron say that the main problem is their religious mutters and the Israeli religious nutters.

Wacker The Attacker

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.


How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

a) We\They\It confirm their existence
b) We\They\It confirm their non-existence

timetogo

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.

Because a lot of people believe in god(s) and run their lives based on what they think these gods want.
Some would like to dictate how others run their lives based on the gods of their region.

timetogo

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.

Because a lot of people believe in god(s) and run their lives based on what they think these gods want.
Some would like to dictate how others run their lives based on the gods of their region.

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

a) We\They\It confirm their existence
b) We\They\It confirm their non-existence

I'm sure there were lots of times in history where people said "we'll never know that so why bother".

PopePalpatine

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

Even in recent times: Knock, Fatima, Medjugorje to name a few???

Are those incidents peer-reviewed?

Dan_Solo

timetogo wrote: »

I'm sure there were lots of times in history where people said "we'll never know that so why bother".

Outside of theology, I can think of no examples. Can you?

Dan_Solo

Well, I'll put it to the floor again then:
Can god predict what people will do or not?

Wacker The Attacker

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well, I'll put it to the floor again then:
Can god predict what people will do or not?

How are we supposed to answer that question when we don't know for sure if a god exists or not?

timetogo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Outside of theology, I can think of no examples. Can you?

What do you mean? Where the argument was accepted? Of course not. It's not a valid argument and the day we stop questioning because we think a question is too hard or because "god" will be a sad day.

There are examples where the argument might have held up people. E.g. Newton thought that the solar systems gravity was helped by god
e.g. "we can't ever know what is causing this, so ..... god".
If everybody had accepted that as good enough then science wouldn't be where it is today.

Questioning what happens to us (if anything) after death might be explained satisfactorily by science some day.

Dan_Solo

timetogo wrote: »

Questioning what happens to us (if anything) after death might be explained satisfactorily by science some day.

This is already explained by science.

timetogo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is already explained by science.

Well then there's nothing to discuss. Can you send on the memo to the pope.

Dan_Solo

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

How are we supposed to answer that question when we don't know for sure if a god exists or not?

Well perhaps I'm wasting my time yet again hoping for a logical discussion (not talking about you here) but I was hoping some theists here who think they know about these things could answer.
If theists want to propose god gave us free will then they should perhaps know whether god can predict what we will do with this free will?

danrua01

Had a bad car accident, and comments from some people instantly made me think of this thread. Two people on the scene both commented that I must have had someone looking over me as I'm still alive.

I don't understand this logic. It wasn't a spiritual being that caused me not to die, but safety measures put in by the manufacturers of the vehicle and motorway maintenance people.

I always read about people having such experiences and putting their thoughts towards faith, or converting to a faith. Not at all, I don't think it wouldve made the experience any easier if I had some religious inclinations, but it helps a lot of other people in these situations, and that can be good..

Ghost Buster

RobertKK wrote: »

If your child does something wrong, does it mean the parent did it?

If the parent were all powerful, existing outside of space and time and able to predict the future and allowed the child to do something with huge future consequences involving original sin, eternal damnation and hey!!! Bone cancer in children and worms who exist to burrow out of human eye balls
Then yeah, the parent did it!

ch750536

danrua01 wrote: »

Had a bad car accident, and comments from some people instantly made me think of this thread. Two people on the scene both commented that I must have had someone looking over me as I'm still alive.

I don't understand this logic. It wasn't a spiritual being that caused me not to die, but safety measures put in by the manufacturers of the vehicle and motorway maintenance people.

I always read about people having such experiences and putting their thoughts towards faith, or converting to a faith. Not at all, I don't think it wouldve made the experience any easier if I had some religious inclinations, but it helps a lot of other people in these situations, and that can be good..

Again, nobody ever says

You must have had someone watching over you. You have driven for 33 years accident free then they ****ed you up to try and kill you.
Bastard angels.

danrua01

ch750536 wrote: »

Again, nobody ever says

Exactly! Like this god or angel allowed me to thrown into the path of an oncoming lorry...but he didn't kill me! So he must be good!

cork guitar player

All these man made religions are a crock of sh1te.

That's not to say that there are not utterly unknowable things in the universe, dark matter etc. Who knows?

Like my dog cannot comprehend the TV.

Ghost Buster

niamhstokes wrote: »

The Secrets of Fatima Mother Mary told us.

She didnt though. She told them to a few wee girleens and then swore them to secrecy. Very poor PR

Calibos

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.


How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

a) We\They\It confirm their existence
b) We\They\It confirm their non-existence

I'd imagine its a bit like what the 14 billion years before I was conceived was like for me.

COYVB

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.


How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

a) We\They\It confirm their existence
b) We\They\It confirm their non-existence

You can't prove something doesn't exist, you can only show how unlikely it is

ScumLord

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.


How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

As far as I can tell god was invented by a particular group of people, well, many gods were created by many different peoples the jewish/christian/muslim one is the one that survived and flourished. We can trace the history of these peoples right back to the time they came up with their holy books. So you don't so much have to disprove god you just have to decide whether these people could really be trusted to know what they were talking about, and I don't think they are a dependable source so the god they described isn't valid IMO.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well, I'll put it to the floor again then:
Can god predict what people will do or not?

It's possible, it's becoming clear to us that humans are machines of habit. Which could mean he never gave us free will at all.

floggg

danrua01 wrote: »

Had a bad car accident, and comments from some people instantly made me think of this thread. Two people on the scene both commented that I must have had someone looking over me as I'm still alive.

I don't understand this logic. It wasn't a spiritual being that caused me not to die, but safety measures put in by the manufacturers of the vehicle and motorway maintenance people.

I always read about people having such experiences and putting their thoughts towards faith, or converting to a faith. Not at all, I don't think it wouldve made the experience any easier if I had some religious inclinations, but it helps a lot of other people in these situations, and that can be good..

What I find stupid about that saying is that surely if you had somebody looking over you, they would have helped you avoid the crash in the first place, no?

To be in an accident in the first place, your luck must be bad!

ScumLord

floggg wrote: »

To be in an accident in the first place, your luck must be bad!

No, god lets you crash so he can answer your parents prayers for a speedy recovery.

floggg

ScumLord wrote: »

It's possible, it's becoming clear to us that humans are machines of habit. Which could mean he never gave us free will at all.

As I said

floggg wrote: »

If you say God is all seeing and knowing, then God cannot say he gave us free will or be disappointed when we go astray. If God created man, with all his baser instincts, immoral tendencies and weakness then God knew who we would behave once he set us out into the world.

He could foresee all the evil we were capable of doing from the outset - yet still built us this way. If we do bad things, it's because the nature he gave us.

So he cannot disclaim responsibility for it when we are just acting in accordance with the design. Think of us like windows vista - yes, are flawed and horrible to deal with at times, but ultimately you have to blame microsoft (God) for that.

The only alternative is to conclude that God didn't have any idea how things would turn out and was hoping for the best, in which case he's hardly the all seeing and all powerful being he's claimed to be, now is he.


Further, you cannot say he gives us free will if he created us with inherent lustsful desires, tempers, anger and greed.

If for example we are meant to have free will in the sexual realm, why design us to crave sex? And if he doesn't wish to practice certain sexual practices, such as homosexuality, why create some of us gay? Why design us to want the one thing you told us we can't have?

It's akin to forcefully injected somebody with heroin until they are hooked, then leaving them alone with a syringe and a kilo of heroin and telling them it's their choice whether to use it not.

Sure, they have a choice but you've made it nearly impossible for them to say no.

So that's not true free will, and God is a dick for stacking the deck against you like that.

.

Canis Lupus

Recently diagnosed with cancer (hodge, super curable so I'm not fishing for thanks) but the nurse in the chemo ward asked me if I believed in god, then said she did and then said I'm sure he'll give you strength to get through this because he's great.

I held my tongue as she was giving me lifesaving treatment and waving needles about but I almost asked if she'd actually looked around the ward at all the walking shells of people and why has her god given us all cancer in the first f*cking place. Religious people blow my mind at how they can compartmentalise all the ****ty things away like that.

jobbridge4life

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Recently diagnosed with cancer (hodge, super curable so I'm not fishing for thanks) but the nurse in the chemo ward asked me if I believed in god, then said she did and then said I'm sure he'll give you strength to get through this because he's great.

I held my tongue as she was giving me lifesaving treatment and waving needles about but I almost asked if she'd actually looked around the ward at all the walking shells of people and why has her god given us all cancer in the first f*cking place. Religious people blow my mind at how they can compartmentalise all the ****ty things away like that.

Isn't that part of the reason religious belief endures? Its utility.

floggg

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Isn't that part of the reason religious belief endures? Its utility.

That's the appealing part of it.

But it really does require you to suspend all logical faculties to embrace it.

TwoShedsJackson

God gets all the praise and thanks and none of the brickbats for causing the trouble in the first place. Jammy git.

Akrasia

COYVB wrote: »

You can't prove something doesn't exist, you can only show how unlikely it is

Yeah, and part of showing that it is unlikely, is showing that it is unnecessary, and this is what science does to god every day.

If I come back to my office desk to find my coffee cup knocked over and brown liquid all over the desk, it's 'possible' that the brown liquid is the remains of a gremlin that melted when exposed to sunlight..... But it's not necessary because the coffee cup explains the mess perfectly fine.

The more we learn about nature and what is possible without any divine intervention, the more un-necessary god is.
We're at a point now where we have perfectly plausible explanations for how the visible universe began and how galaxies stars and planets formed without any need for divine intervention, and we have multiple plausible theories for how the big bang might have started without the need for a god either. And we have multiple plausible explanations for how the mind works and where people get our morals and values from, none of which require a god.

Science is not finished, we don't know everything, we have plenty still to discover and loads of kinks to work out, but the reality is, that there is nowhere in our knowledge gaps big enough for god to hide in anymore.

God is not necessary do perform any science, and because god is not necessary, there is absolutely no reason to believe that god exists. (other than ignorance or wishfull thinking)

Grayson

ScumLord wrote: »

As far as I can tell god was invented by a particular group of people, well, many gods were created by many different peoples the jewish/christian/muslim one is the one that survived and flourished. We can trace the history of these peoples right back to the time they came up with their holy books. So you don't so much have to disprove god you just have to decide whether these people could really be trusted to know what they were talking about, and I don't think they are a dependable source so the god they described isn't valid IMO.

It's not even that it survived. they were all a bit different in character but they all adapted ideas from other religions. Augustine was a manichean*. He took the idea of a god of light and one of dark (God/Devil). The idea of a resurrected son of God was Egyptian. The idea of a soul was Pythagoras (Yes, the same guy who liked triangles). In the west holidays were taken from pagan rituals etc...

So although the religion survived the original concept didn't. This is most obvious in the transition from old testament god to new testament god. They are completely different.



*(BTW, I mentioned earlier in the thread that he was a Zoroastrian. I was on the train a couple of days ago and thought hang on, no he wasn't. Consider this an apology and a correction)

BlaasForRafa

Akrasia wrote: »

Science is not finished, we don't know everything, we have plenty still to discover and loads of kinks to work out, but the reality is, that there is nowhere in our knowledge gaps big enough for god to hide in anymore.

God is not necessary do perform any science, and because god is not necessary, there is absolutely no reason to believe that god exists. (other than ignorance or wishfull thinking)

Oh come on, God fills in all the little gaps we don't understand right? Sure he created dark matter and dark energy just to f**k with Neil DeGrasse Tyson's head! :pac:

ScumLord

Akrasia wrote: »

The more we learn about nature and what is possible without any divine intervention, the more un-necessary god is.
We're at a point now where we have perfectly plausible explanations for how the visible universe began and how galaxies stars and planets formed without any need for divine intervention, and we have multiple plausible theories for how the big bang might have started without the need for a god either. And we have multiple plausible explanations for how the mind works and where people get our morals and values from, none of which require a god.

I actually think our expanding historical knowledge, which has been helped along greatly by other sciences like DNA, has done more to discredit religion than anything else. We can see our development from a pretty special animal to a civilised being, we can see religion develop from remembering ancestors, to gods, to god. when you can see our history laid out it's clear the current gods were invented and adapted to our needs throughout the centuries.

Quantum physics and other advanced sciences almost opens the door to gods again because things can get so strange and some parts of them seem so ideal for humans that it would make you wonder. I think it's a bit like the early days of science in that you could read a lot into results because we're only beginning to scratch the surface.

StormWarrior

Don't know if it's been posted already as I can't be arsed to read the whole thread but interesting response here:
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2015/02/02/stephen-fry-is-wrong-without-god-there-would-actually-be-more-evil-in-the-world/

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/stephen.fry.says.god.is.capricious.mean.minded.stupid.but.lets.not.get.angry/47174.htm

Dan_Solo

ScumLord wrote: »

Quantum physics and other advanced sciences almost opens the door to gods again because things can get so strange and some parts of them seem so ideal for humans that it would make you wonder. I think it's a bit like the early days of science in that you could read a lot into results because we're only beginning to scratch the surface.

I think this is related to the old proposition that the universe is "just right" for humans to have evolved, but this theory fails in that if it is wasn't "just right" we wouldn't be here to observe it in the first place.

Dan_Solo

StormWarrior wrote: »

Don't know if it's been posted already as I can't be arsed to read the whole thread but interesting response here:
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2015/02/02/stephen-fry-is-wrong-without-god-there-would-actually-be-more-evil-in-the-world/

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/stephen.fry.says.god.is.capricious.mean.minded.stupid.but.lets.not.get.angry/47174.htm

In part it is because simply removing God from the equation does nothing whatsoever to eradicate the problem of suffering in this world.

Horrifically **** argument. Fry, like many of us here, do not believe there is a god at all. Whatever happens when you "remove god" is irrelevant because he doesn't exist. What we are left with is the hypothetical all powerful god who allows and indeed designs suffering for us.
If god existed he must be a cnut, but he doesn't exist, basically.

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

is irrelevant because he doesn't exist.

No, you think he doesn't exist.

timetogo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I think this is related to the old proposition that the universe is "just right" for humans to have evolved, but this theory fails in that if it is wasn't "just right" we wouldn't be here to observe it in the first place.

Also with the infinite amount of universes theory there could be an infinite amount of universes out there or before this one that did have the variables different so life couldn't evolve. We're not lucky to have this universe with the laws of physics we know, the laws of physics in this universe were just right for life to emerge.