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Man gets €840 a week on welfare

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    #152
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    and why is there no push within the community for the next generation to be better educated than the previous one?

    because they're making more money being uneducated


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    #153
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    In 2006 there were 22,369 travellers in Ireland. Whatever they're doing, they're not exactly breeding like rabbits.

    in 2011 there were ~ 36,000: http://www.paveepoint.ie/question/how-many-travellers-live-in-ireland-today/

    From the CSO:
    The average age of all Irish Travellers was 22.4 compared with 36.1 for the general population, and over half of all Travellers (52.2%) were aged under 20.


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    #154
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    bjork wrote: »
    Why do you think they don't have the same access to education?

    They have the same and more supports available
    I'd imagine it's because of their culture, their tendency to have kids and marry at a young age and a number of other factors. I'd also disagree that they have more supports available and even if they do they are still disadvantaged by various other factors.


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    #155
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Sergio Georgini wrote: »
    in 2011 there were ~ 36,000: http://www.paveepoint.ie/question/how-many-travellers-live-in-ireland-today/

    From the CSO:
    Wouldn't trust Pavee Point over the census. They've a vested interest.
    A younger average age doesn't mean anything really. They also have a lower life expectancy. I'll even concede they have more kids than non-travellers, but if there doesn't appear to be all that many of them for a crowd that supposedly has 10 kids per couple every generation.


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    #156
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    Just a couple of points. A man on the average industrial wage doesn't pay 50% of his salary in taxes. If he is single his marginal rate of tax is 52% but he would only have paid in the region of 21% on his average industrial wages. If he is married that goes down to less than 16%

    Thats the pointed headed bit out of the way. €840 in social welfare is absolutely ludicrous. There was a Dutch economist forced out of the ESRI after publishing a report that many people were better off on the dole. It didn't suit the PC / CORI brigades so the guy was discredited and his report buried by more 'acceptable' alternatives.

    However the really scary bit is that we as a society encourage the likes of this gentleman to breed like rabbits while actively discouraging ordinary decent people though taxes and the cost of childcare. Given that likely outcomes for children are governed by nature / nurture what sane society provides financial incentives to a lazy feckless underclass to breed while discouraging hardworking conscientious people?

    Ok now to sit back and observe Godwin's law in action.


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    #157
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    bjork wrote: »
    Why do you think they don't have the same access to education?

    They have the same and more supports available
    Agree totally. It's their culture, not their opportunities.


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    #158
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    K4t wrote: »
    I'd imagine it's because of their culture, their tendency to have kids and marry at a young age and a number of other factors. I'd also disagree that they have more supports available and even if they do they are still disadvantaged by various other factors.

    The only reason they are "disadvantaged" is because they choose not to engage with services.


    My grandfather was a farmer. Can I demand land because that's the life my granddaddy led?

    Culture my arse, but if being uneducated is a culture, then yeah, it's culture


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    #159
    Roquentin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Roquentin


    lazza14 wrote: »
    He has 8 kids - this is why he gets €840 pw, JOKE ...

    Lucky to afford a 2nd kid (in my situation) while these social parasites just keep having kids cos the govt. will fund them.

    When will Ireland/UK learn that child benefit should be capped after 2 kids ...

    exactly it should be


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    #160
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The point is you cannot guarantee that ANYBODY in this state can afford to feed themselves, let alone anyone else in the morning. That's what the social welfare system is for.
    Could you tell us how you will be guaranteeing continual employment at whatever level of salary you decide allows you to have whatever number of children please, because that's what you are proposing.

    Let me break this down for you. The man has no job. He was arrested for being drunk and shouting abuse at women and children in the street. He has no education. He has 8 children. He does not provide for those children. He would not have 8 children if the State wasn't housing and providing for them. I have NO children because I CHOSE TO USE CONTRACEPTION. Nobody can guarantee anyone continued employment. The State should not be paying benefits at a level that allows people to opt out of working. It's time to remove the financial incentive that makes living on benefits an attractive lifestyle choice.


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    #161
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    Eight kids is a big number to look after. I would look at it like "To hell with that, id rather be on 188euros a week and have no kids than 840euros with 8 kids". Then again, he might not even look after the kids at all, maybe he lets the women do that while he gets drunk with his mates. Either way is a pretty sorry scenario, i doubt many people would trade with him, despite the cries of how easy his life is..


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    #162
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    bjork wrote: »
    Culture my arse, but if being uneducated is a culture, then yeah, it's culture
    Their culture doesn't view education as a priority. I don't see how you see that as discrediting my argument about the role religion also plays in their culture. Obviously they can choose to educate themselves if you are looking at it from our side but they are being held back by their parents and their culture, a culture of devout Catholicism, education as often not even a worthwhile option and a distinct attitude and feeling of many travellers of being separate to the rest of Irish society. It's not as easy and you or I and others in Irish society would like it to be.


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    #163
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    K4t wrote: »
    Their culture doesn't view education as a priority....

    Why would it when they can clear more money being uneducated?

    Being uneducated pays more than the average wage.


    and he is such a good catholic he has 12 previous convictions and lies to the judge

    Gimme a break :rolleyes:

    :pac:


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    #164
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    bjork wrote: »
    Why would it when they can clear more money being uneducated?

    Being uneducated pays more than the average wage.
    If that's the way you feel, then you are free to go and live as a traveller and enjoy a better standard of living than you have now.


    Yes you can argue that you are supporting this family's standard of living as it is, but please acknowledge those 8 children and their lives. The state has a duty to those kids, regardless of where they come from or where they potentially might end up because of their culture.


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    #165
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    K4t wrote: »
    If that's the way you feel, then you are free to go and live as a traveller and enjoy a better standard of living than you have now.


    Yes you can argue that you are supporting this family's standard of living as it is, but please acknowledge those 8 children and their lives. The state has a duty to those kids, regardless of where they come from or where they potentially might end up because of their culture.

    The best way the state could live up to that duty would be to remove them from that man and put them with a family that will ensure they are educated properly and don't have to witness violence, alcohol abuse and crime on a regular basis.


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    #166
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    K4t wrote: »
    Only because they have been educated and most of their parents have been educated on the importance of contraception and how it isn't necessary to follow the church or the pope's stance on the issue. They are for the most part 'enlightened'. A lot of traveller's, both young and old, do not have that same knowledge, many of whom barely have primary or secondary level education and many of them are also extremely devout catholics.

    Now you can say how is that the fault of the Catholics in name only when travellers do have access to the same education as the settled folk and Catholics in name only aren't forcing them to have large families? It's not their fault of course but they do share some responsibility for the large traveller families who have those families because of their opposition to contraception based on Catholic church teachings. The educated Irish give intellectual cover to the travellers by following the same church as them even if only in name or attending mass which at its core still shares those same beliefs (in this case opposition to contraception), only the educated Irish are educated and enlightened enough to know that it is smarter to go against those beliefs.

    Lets not continue this ignorant Traveller perception. Yes, they are uneducated but they are not stupid. I've worked with Travellers before, they know all about contraception, they know where to get it but they abstain for all sorts of reasons, religion, cost, stigma. Travellers have plenty of outreach programs they can access, there are many travellers women groups that provide this kind of information in a safe setting. The information is given to them but they choose not to take it.

    The school system is there for all children, they have the same access to schools a settled child has. Most of the kids I met like school but the problem is their parents who don't see the value in it. What's the point when all you'll do is grow up to be a glorified babysitter for your younger siblings until you then are married off yourself to start the cycle all over again?

    The apologists for travellers drive me mad...if I decided to take my kids out of education I would be rightly prosecuted and treated with disgust. As a parent my responsibility is to raise my children to adulthood with all the tools they need to make it in the world. Education is part of that, so is healthcare and proper parenting.

    Blaming lack of education only gets you so far, when are they going to take personal repsonsibility?


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    #167
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    K4t wrote: »
    If that's the way you feel, then you are free to go and live as a traveller and enjoy a better standard of living than you have now.


    Yes you can argue that you are supporting this family's standard of living as it is, but please acknowledge those 8 children and their lives. The state has a duty to those kids, regardless of where they come from or where they potentially might end up because of their culture.

    The parents also have a duty and if they can't fulfill it maybe it's time for the state to take their duty of care seriously and remove the children, instead of just throwing money at it so guys like this can feed their drinking problems.


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    #168
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Let me break this down for you. The man has no job. He was arrested for being drunk and shouting abuse at women and children in the street. He has no education. He has 8 children. He does not provide for those children. He would not have 8 children if the State wasn't housing and providing for them. I have NO children because I CHOSE TO USE CONTRACEPTION. Nobody can guarantee anyone continued employment. The State should not be paying benefits at a level that allows people to opt out of working. It's time to remove the financial incentive that makes living on benefits an attractive lifestyle choice.
    The fact is that if life on the dole was so cushy I'd do it myself. I've been there and seen lots of it myself and the answer is no thanks. And you're still pretending all this social welfare is to support one person. If someone with a 100k job had 8 kids, would you cap their social at two kids too? How would that work out if they lost their job?


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    #169
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    bjork wrote: »
    The parents also have a duty and if they can't fulfill it maybe it's time for the state to take their duty of care seriously and remove the children, instead of just throwing money at it so guys like this can feed their drinking problems.
    Again, do you really think it would cost the state €840 a week to look after 8 kids? It wouldn't cover one of them.


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    #170
    AndyBoBandy
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,326 Mod ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy


    I've said it before and I'll say it again,
    Social welfare payments should be issued in the form of redeemable vouchers, vouchers which could be redeemed in grocery stores for food/household items (ideally Irish stores only, but this might not work logistically), and also to pay utility bills.
    The vouchers would not be allowed to be exchanged for alcohol, tobacco of gambling of any kind.

    Let's be honest, we all know someone on welfare who drinks/smokes a good proportion of their welfare.


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    #171
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Again, do you really think it would cost the state €840 a week to look after 8 kids? It wouldn't cover one of them.

    So the childrens welfare and improving the next next generations opportunities is not the main worry and aim?



    If it all boils down to how much will it cost the state short term, it must be compared with how much it is currently costing the state. Extra programs, crime, generations of uneducated people breading newer more ignorant people, where does it end?


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    #172
    tastyt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭tastyt


    Oh yes we must excuse them for not using contraception and not engaging in education because of their " devout " Catholic religious beliefs.

    Not so religious when it comes to " though shalt not steal " however are they??

    Not so devout that they have a culture of grabbing and treating women as second class citizens in their own home. Spare us the politically correct bull****

    Travellers live outside the laws set down and followed by the citizens of this country and yet we bend over backwards to give them everything on a plate so as not to offend anyone. They are laughing at the working people of the country and why would they change??


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    #173
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Again, do you really think it would cost the state €840 a week to look after 8 kids? It wouldn't cover one of them.

    We manage to take care of two kids on half of that. But we have to work for ours :mad: I'm sure its hard but it might be a bit easier if he spent less money on drink.


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    #174
    Roquentin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Roquentin


    tastyt wrote: »
    Oh yes we must excuse them for not using contraception and not engaging in education because of their " devout " Catholic religious beliefs.

    Not so religious when it comes to " though shalt not steal " however are they??

    Not so devout that they have a culture of grabbing and treating women as second class citizens in their own home. Spare us the politically correct bull****

    Travellers live outside the laws set down and followed by the citizens of this country and yet we bend over backwards to give them everything on a plate so as not to offend anyone. They are laughing at the working people of the country and why would they change??

    in keeping with godwins law.........i suggest a liquidation


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    #175
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    bjork wrote: »
    So the childrens welfare and improving the next next generations opportunities is not the main worry and aim?



    If it all boils down to how much will it cost the state short term, it must be compared with how much it is currently costing the state. Extra programs, crime, generations of uneducated people breading newer more ignorant people, where does it end?
    It boils down to whether you think a child is better off in state care than with their family, travellers or not. You don't know much about state care then I guess.


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    #176
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    eviltwin wrote: »
    We manage to take care of two kids on half of that. But we have to work for ours :mad: I'm sure its hard but it might be a bit easier if he spent less money on drink.
    You didn't answer the question. Well done.
    If 8 children are taken into state care will it cost more or less than €840 a week?


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    #177
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    K4t wrote: »
    If that's the way you feel, then you are free to go and live as a traveller and enjoy a better standard of living than you have now.


    Yes you can argue that you are supporting this family's standard of living as it is, but please acknowledge those 8 children and their lives. The state has a duty to those kids, regardless of where they come from or where they potentially might end up because of their culture.

    This post is almost comical. I can honestly see the minsters wife from The Simpsons hysterically shouting 'won't someone think of the children', because that's exactly what your argument is and tbh it's a bullsh*t argument.


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    #178
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You didn't answer the question. Well done.
    If 8 children are taken into state care will it cost more or less than €840 a week?

    And if they follow in the fathers' footsteps?


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    #179
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You didn't answer the question. Well done.
    If 8 children are taken into state care will it cost more or less than €840 a week?

    A lot more I'm sure but that's not the point is it? This guy is hardly father of the year, what kind of life are those kids having living on a halting site which for the most part are filthy dirty. They should be given a chance. They don't have it at the moment.


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    #180
    porsche boy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭porsche boy


    interesting surname, i wonder what his genealogy is.
    Furthermore, you need to have a certain level of 'schooling' to be an engineer.


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    #181
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Sergio Georgini wrote: »
    And if they follow in the fathers' footsteps?
    And if they don't? And if they turn out like a lot of people who have been through the state's wonderful care home system you think they'll all be Nobel prize winners?


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