FTP 2015

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

Actually, now that I think about it I was using the CP curve from GoldenCheetah. Most of my data points were 15-20 mins laps of a road circuit with a couple of longer TTs (one was 40km).

That estimate curve in Golden Cheetah isn't very accurate in my experience. For me it tends to over-egg what I can do over very short and very long intervals.

pprendeville

Leroy42 wrote: »

Hold on, 30w drop off in 3 weeks? Really?

What sort of improvement do people generally get in terms of increase from a base level in January to what they expect their FTP to be.

Would people expect to get 10% or more increase in FTP by doing say 4 weeks of focused training?

Yup. I had been hoping to peak early for 1st weekend in March so was doing a lot of VO2 and anaerobic work. Was coming along nicely and then got really sick. Lost about 4kg in 3 days. I lose fitness quickly in general anyway so it came as no surprise.

Beasty

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

That estimate curve in Golden Cheetah isn't very accurate in my experience. For me it tends to over-egg what I can do over very short and very long intervals.

It needs to be pretty accurate in both 3-5 mins and 15-20 mins. If you get too low at the short end it predicts a figure that's too high at the long end and vice versa. Many don't do the 3-5 mins bit too accurately. If they get that right I think it's a reasonable extrapolation

Chips Lovell

Not sure I follow. Are you saying that I should be capable of higher three to five minute efforts? Would that not skew the curve even more?

Beasty

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Not sure I follow. Are you saying that I should be capable of higher three to five minute efforts? Would that not skew the curve even more?

If you go higher 3-5 mins the curve steepens slightly reducing your predicted FTP. Having said that at the long end I think it goes up to 60 mins so if you do have a very long effort at threshold in there that should temper any distortion to your FTP. Obviously though it is only an estimation (albeit in my experience pretty accurate, certainly to the nearest 10w or so)

Lumen

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Not sure I follow. Are you saying that I should be capable of higher three to five minute efforts? Would that not skew the curve even more?

The model works on the concept of AWC (super-threshold capacity). If you don't push hard enough on the short efforts it will underestimate your AWC and overestimate your threshold.

e.g. your actual AWC is 300W.min, your actual threshold is 350W.

This means for 5 mins you can do 350+(300/5)=410W and for 20 min you can do 350+(300/20)=365W

But you wuss out on the 5 min test and do 380W, but manage the full 365W for 20 mins.

If 380=X+(Y/5), and 365=X+(Y/20), then
X=360 and Y=100

So GC thinks that your threshold is 360W, not 350W.

I think. School was a long time ago.

Chips Lovell

There might be something in that. My max for the entire 3 to 5 minute range last year was from a 10 minute TT.

Hmmzis

Numdbers are from last year when I was fit.

FTP: 338W
Weight: 76kg
VO2max: 64 mmol/kg (or whatever that unit was)
Power at VO2max: 380W

All testing was done in a lab in Trinity.

Now I'm not in form and my weight is around 80kg. I'd be lucky to get anywhere near 300W for an hour these days.

pprendeville

That was pretty decent. A club mate of mine was telling me his FTP for The RAS last year was 370W and he was 68kg.

Inquitus

Hmmzis wrote: »

Numdbers are from last year when I was fit.

FTP: 338W
Weight: 76kg
VO2max: 64 mmol/kg (or whatever that unit was)
Power at VO2max: 380W

All testing was done in a lab in Trinity.

Now I'm not in form and my weight is around 80kg. I'd be lucky to get anywhere near 300W for an hour these days.

What did those numbers get you last year? Correct me if I am wrong, you upgraded from A4 early in the season? did you have any luck in A3?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

pprendeville wrote: »

That was pretty decent. A club mate of mine was telling me his FTP for The RAS last year was 370W and he was 68kg.

Thats fairly impressive at 5.4. Leaving race craft and dealing with the line outs to one side i often heard 5w/pkg FTP being mentioned as RAS mop material

Currently at 310w myself at 69kg but hopeful to have it up around 330w/66kg at some point this season, ideally before Ras Mumhan

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Leroy42 wrote: »

What sort of improvement do people generally get in terms of increase from a base level in January to what they expect their FTP to be.

Would people expect to get 10% or more increase in FTP by doing say 4 weeks of focused training?

I would normally see an improvement with some of my guys of about 10% improvement after the first 4-6 weeks (assuming working of a low base). I would expect to see similar again 6-8 weeks after and then gains get harder to find after that. The first 15-20% improvements are often the easier to find with smart training and a willingness to suffer on those tough sessions

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Beasty wrote: »

I would suggest there's already a bit of a problem in what you've put up there jackyback. It assumes everyone is training with similar objectives. It equally assumes everyone will try and measure these things monthly (when from later this month until some time around August the racers amongst us may well be focussed on racing once or even more often each week)

Now take me as an example. I haven't been caring about FTP over the past year. I am currently interested in my power up to 20 mins, but that is not my objective for the year - that objective is likely to be (hopefully) less that 2 minutes 40s during the first half of October. My 5 minute power is something I will really focus on in August and September. No-one on this board is likely to have anything like the same objectives

Yeah figured its hard to do a one size fits all table with people having different race focus.

manwithaplan

tunney wrote: »

Do it on the flat. your numbers will be an awful lot less so if you got with 285-290 you are over estimating FTP.

You are probably right. However, I wasn't trying to pinpoint FTP - I was just doing what I was told and sending back the numbers! I am trusting that they were appropriately crunched and the zones are OK. The crunchee is very highly respected!

Edit - the FTP was 268W tested in Trinity in January 2014. At 74kg, that was still a good enough position to move on to picking up points in A3 in the next couple of months. I'm 70kg now, for what its worth.

Hmmzis

Inquitus wrote: »

What did those numbers get you last year? Correct me if I am wrong, you upgraded from A4 early in the season? did you have any luck in A3?

Did two A4 races and got 2nd in both. Did one A3 race (Roche GP) and got a minor unplaced type prize. Got my rear end handed to me in the club league (dropped from most races), maybe two or three placings throughout the season.

Hi Ho

manwithaplan wrote: »

... the FTP was 268W tested in Trinity in January 2014. At 74kg, that was still a good enough position to move on to picking up points in A3 in the next couple of months ..

You were getting A3 points with 3.6W/Kg? Sounds low for that??

manwithaplan

Hi Ho wrote: »

You were getting A3 points with 3.6W/Kg? Sounds low for that??

That's what the test said. It was done in late January and I picked up nine points in three races in March and April. I would have done a fair bit of more focused work in between though. It's also not all about the FTP - this isn't triathlon! Having said that, all three results were achieved in breakaways just in case you think I'm a wheelsucking sprinter or something.

Edit - Unless "Load @ TLac" means something different than FTP, which would be news to me.

pprendeville

manwithaplan wrote: »

That's what the test said. It was done in late January and I picked up nine points in three races in March and April. I would have done a fair bit of more focused work in between though. It's also not all about the FTP - this isn't triathlon! Having said that, all three results were achieved in breakaways just in case you think I'm a wheelsucking sprinter or something.

Edit - Unless "Load @ TLac" means something different than FTP, which would be news to me.

Had you the mask on when doing it? Did some testing with a fella doing a PhD (some may refer to it as the age discrimination lactate test:) in there in Trinity and I found the mask very restrictive.

manwithaplan

pprendeville wrote: »

Had you the mask on when doing it? Did some testing with a fella doing a PhD (some may refer to it as the age discrimination lactate test:) in there in Trinity and I found the mask very restrictive.

Yeah - didn't bother me too much though.

harringtonp

manwithaplan wrote: »

If you insist! Averaged 325W for a 20 min uphill test a few weeks ago. I didn't do a 'blowout' beforehand so there's a bit of anaerobic juice in there for the first few minutes. I'd say the FTP's around 285-290W. I weigh a good bit more than you though!

I reckon the 95% for 20 min is not correct because as you say there is quite a few minutes of anaerobic juice. I reckon 90-92% is more in line for 20min->FTP

harringtonp

Beasty wrote: »

I certainly find I can put out quite a bit more on a hill climb than a flat effort over the same time. I've always put it down to the out of saddle efforts when climbing

FTP Hill > FTP Flat > FTP Turbo > FTP TT Bike

Need to pick an FTP test that matches the training situation

lukegjpotter

I'm 68kg and my FTP 220W four weeks ago before doing the Strava 15 minute climb Training Plan.
220W/68kg = 3.2w/kg

I've been wanting to do another test, but the frost is mental. I find the Turbo Trainer very hard to maintain an effort, as I don't have a fan.

Gonna start a plan to do some high intensity efforts as I want do start with club racing this year.

I test on Ticknock Road, as it takes me just over 20mins to climb.
Should a bunch of us meet up one Saturday and do a test?

Chips Lovell

harringtonp wrote: »

FTP Hill > FTP Flat > FTP Turbo > FTP TT Bike

Need to pick an FTP test that matches the training situation

You do four different FTP tests? :eek: How often do you do each one?

harringtonp

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

You do four different FTP tests? :eek: How often do you do each one?

I don't, generally just do one on the flat and am mindful of the different situations when training

pprendeville

lukegjpotter wrote: »

I'm 68kg and my FTP 220W four weeks ago before doing the Strava 15 minute climb Training Plan.
220W/68kg = 3.2w/kg

I've been wanting to do another test, but the frost is mental. I find the Turbo Trainer very hard to maintain an effort, as I don't have a fan.

Gonna start a plan to do some high intensity efforts as I want do start with club racing this year.

I test on Ticknock Road, as it takes me just over 20mins to climb.
Should a bunch of us meet up one Saturday and do a test?

Good idea. Cruagh road might be a better one to do it on. Longer and plenty of options to carry on afterwards.

Beasty

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

You do four different FTP tests? :eek: How often do you do each one?

Well if you do the hill (having found a hill long enough!!) and TT bike you can probably guess the other 2!!

TT bike is though easy to do, either based on your 25 mile performance or extrapolating from a 10 miler

It's a couple of years since I did a TT, but I was finding a drop off of around 20w compared to the road bike.

Turbo is interesting, as it's really down to motivation. I generally find I can get pretty close to road bike performance up to 20 mins or so (and definitely surpass it for up to maybe up to one, perhaps even two minutes). Think I've only ever done one near all-out hour effort on the Wattbike though

Chips Lovell

Hill, flat and TT bike, I can put out the same power on each. I prefer to test on a hill because it's easier (if that's the right word) to flog yourself to the limit. Finding a 20 minute hill is tricky though. Replicating the effort on flat terrain is possible, but takes a lot of focus.

Turbo I find it harder to put out the same power if it's indoors. Heart rate goes way higher than it would for similar efforts out on the road. Putting the turbo out the back garden reduces the difference significantly, so I'm assuming its down to overheating.

godtabh

harringtonp wrote: »

I reckon the 95% for 20 min is not correct because as you say there is quite a few minutes of anaerobic juice. I reckon 90-92% is more in line for 20min->FTP

Isnt that why you do a burn off in advance?

Beasty

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Hill, flat and TT bike, I can put out the same power on each.

The TT bike position usually constrains power output, but you get more back through aero gains. That certainly my understanding of the theory, and also what I've found in practice

manwithaplan

harringtonp wrote: »

I reckon the 95% for 20 min is not correct because as you say there is quite a few minutes of anaerobic juice. I reckon 90-92% is more in line for 20min->FTP

Yep - my guesstimate is in line with that. I'm taking more than 10% off.

harringtonp

godtabh wrote: »

Isnt that why you do a burn off in advance?

Guess it would be though most descriptions I've read just tell you to warm up properly and don't mention burn offs

tunney

harringtonp wrote: »

Guess it would be though most descriptions I've read just tell you to warm up properly and don't mention burn offs

no most actually say do a T5 and then a T20

harringtonp

tunney wrote: »

no most actually say do a T5 and then a T20

Yes true, thats what I did last FTP but there was quite a gap on the road between them so I reckoned quite a bit of that anaerobic juice came back for the 20min. The high (for me) FTP killed me in training.

On another point some of these high FTPs make depressing reading don't they. When you are sub 4W/KG, 5 would seem like a nuclear arsenal

godtabh

harringtonp wrote: »

Guess it would be though most descriptions I've read just tell you to warm up properly and don't mention burn offs

Will need to double check but I think trainerroad gets you to do a couple of intervals before hand. 3 one minute intervals I think

harringtonp

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Hill, flat and TT bike, I can put out the same power on each. I prefer to test on a hill because it's easier (if that's the right word) to flog yourself to the limit. Finding a 20 minute hill is tricky though. Replicating the effort on flat terrain is possible, but takes a lot of focus.

Turbo I find it harder to put out the same power if it's indoors. Heart rate goes way higher than it would for similar efforts out on the road. Putting the turbo out the back garden reduces the difference significantly, so I'm assuming its down to overheating.

In two short stage race TTs last year I put out 298 for 12+ min and 306 for 10+ min. In between them did a 20 min test at 316 on the road bike. Big difference for me.

In second race TT used my road bike but rode it all with forearms on handlebars. Could have ridden in drops and knew I'd output more power but reckoned would still be slower

Leroy42

I don't all this talk of burn-offs. Isn't the reason for the intervals beforehand to get your body used to the effort in small doses so as to be ready for the full T20. It is not to somehow use up some resources.

NOt doing the intervals before hand will not mean that you have more FTP in the T20, it will just mean that your body may take to time warm up into it, and therefore I would think that the possibility is higher for going out too hard too soon.

ROK ON

Related query.

I don't have a PM but (I consider) that I have a reasonable idea as to my LTHR. I am doing a consistent amount of threshold intervals on the turbo but mostly repeated efforts sub 10 mins.
I have done a threshold test on average every two weeks for past 6.
Warm up followed by 5min at tempo followed by 5min at threshold rest and 20 at threshold but increasing all the way through the 20 min session. Warm down.

I feel that I am getting good value from this and am thinking of doing this weekly ( and sometimes biweekly). Is this in any way a bad idea?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Perhaps I am picking up your post wrong but why are you testing LTHR so frequently. Normally it will not change that much over a full season.
I would also do a 30tt for LTHR testing. Hit lap after 10mins and at the end of the 30. last 20 is your LTHR. Build sessions then around that but be mindful hr for shorter intervals is a bit useless.

Beasty

OK, here's my data, all from the last couple of months on the Wattbike

User|Jan|Feb|Mar|Apr|May|Jun|Jul|Aug|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|5sec|1min|5min|20min|60min|Test|Unit
Beasty|238||||||||238|XX|300|XX|1158|483|310|243|XX|XX|Wattbike|
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FTP is predicted via Golden Cheetah based on shorter intervals
I've actually gone higher at 5min 30s that at 5 min and have used the higher value. Equally I've maintained my 20 min output pretty much up to 25 mins (due to the nature of the intervals producing these figures)

The 5s power is an all-time best. A couple of years ago I hit 574w over a minute and would hope to get to something approaching that figure again, but not until much later in the year (ahead of the World Track Masters in October). Similarly I've hit around 390w over 5 mins, but that was on a hill-climb a few years ago

If I use an NP basis I have a 20 minute or so NP of 296w from last week. That translates to an equivalent FTP of 270 to 290w depending on where the 3-5 minute figure is

I'm far too modest to start showing my w/kg figures. Needless to say my weight is counterbalanced by my age:cool:

:pac:

ROK ON

Eden Black Self-importance wrote: »

Perhaps I am picking up your post wrong but why are you testing LTHR so frequently. Normally it will not change that much over a full season.

I don't have an intention to test frequently, it is that I want to prioritise having at least one 20min at threshold a few times a week. The reasons are twofold (1) I have a good endurance base - i can cycle for hours on end with little effort. But in races two years ago my ability to put in a sustained effort from 30mins out to an hour was below what I wanted it to be. The second reason is that I am highly curtailed at weekends so I can't necessarily get away for a cycle with two to four 15minute plus hills like a lot of folk can.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

ROK ON wrote: »

I don't have an intention to test frequently, it is that I want to prioritise having at least one 20min at threshold a few times a week. The reasons are twofold (1) I have a good endurance base - i can cycle for hours on end with little effort. But in races two years ago my ability to put in a sustained effort from 30mins out to an hour was below what I wanted it to be. The second reason is that I am highly curtailed at weekends so I can't necessarily get away for a cycle with two to four 15minute plus hills like a lot of folk can.

You might get more bang for buck on doing work above threshold.

ROK ON

Eden Black Self-importance wrote: »

You might get more bang for buck on doing work above threshold.

HIIT or longer intervals above threshold?
Or both?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

User|Jan|Feb|Mar|Apr|May|Jun|Jul|Aug|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|5sec|1min|5min|20min|60min|Test|Unit
Beasty|238||||||||238|XX|300|XX|1158|483|310|243|XX|XX|Wattbike|
Jackyback|310w||||||||310w|4.49w/kg|330w|5w/kg|1041w|527w|354w|334w|306w|1hr session data|SRMs|||
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1,5,20,60 bests from this winters training. Probably close to sprint pb but SRMs away and can only push out 800 at most on turbo

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

ROK ON wrote: »

HIIT or longer intervals above threshold?
Or both?

A mix of both, 5x3 at 105%+ of lthr build up to 8 minutes. Look at some 30sec on/off on as hard/rpe8-9. Over time increase to 2min on/off. Look at 10 to 20 intervals broken into buckets of 5 or 10.
As I mentioned hr lag on shorter HIIT work means go by RPE, this is where a power meter comes into it's own.

manwithaplan

Leroy42 wrote: »

I don't all this talk of burn-offs. Isn't the reason for the intervals beforehand to get your body used to the effort in small doses so as to be ready for the full T20. It is not to somehow use up some resources.

NOt doing the intervals before hand will not mean that you have more FTP in the T20, it will just mean that your body may take to time warm up into it, and therefore I would think that the possibility is higher for going out too hard too soon.

No - I'm pretty sure the 5 min beforehand is to get rid of the significant anaerobic contribution to a 20 min test. Obviously if you were to do a 60 minute test, the anaerobic component would be far smaller so this is to compensate - you still generally multiply the T20 by 95% to get FTP.

Beasty

Eden Black Self-importance wrote: »

1,5,20,60 bests from this winters training. Probably close to sprint pb but SRMs away and can only push out 800 at most on turbo

I challenge you to a flying 50m(etre) TT:pac:

doozerie

I don't see any value in absolute FTP figures, a thread where people cite just that figure could all too easily just become a willy-waving contest. That view may well be based based on ignorance re power training on my part though. My willy is massive, incidentally.

Knowing your own FTP is certainly very useful when focusing your own training, and gauging your own progress, but I can't see any benefit in comparing it to other people's FTP figure. For example, my FTP is a respectable 2,200W but that is tempered slightly by my weight of 575kg - most of that is willy weight though, my willy's W/kg figure is terrible, mine is fantastic.

doozerie

More seriously, I'm not entirely sure what my W/kg figure is currently. I've lost weight since it was properly tested last - it was modest then, and although I'd like to believe my power hasn't dropped with my weight I don't know for sure so it might well be even more modest now. When I mentally gauge myself against those around me in races, I reckon my figures come up short (ironically) by comparison more often than not.

Despite that, I find that I can sometimes hang in there, by my fingernails at times, when races get really tough. Sometimes sheer bloody-minded determination trumps science, sometimes it doesn't. Throw in a few hills and that can obviously skew things further in favour of those of us made of twigs. Throw in some technical challenges on a race circuit and that can shake things up significantly too. Etc., etc. I have a tendency to read too much into figures personally, I have to keep reminding myself that all that can go entirely out the window on any given day in any given race.

For training though, I like figures to help give me focus, I just try not to read too much, or too little, into them versus other peoples' figures.

uphillonly

Took me almost as long to work out how to copy the table as do the test.

User Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Current FTP Watts/kg Target FTP Target Watts/kg 5sec 1min 5min 20min 60min Test Unit
Beasty 238 238 XX 300 XX 1158 483 310 243 XX XX Wattbike
Jackyback 310w 310w 4.49w/kg 330w 5w/kg 1041w 527w 354w 334w 306w 1hr session data SRMs
Uphillonly 274 274 3.75w/kg 300 4.3w/kg 755 400 303 288 212 20m uphill Powertap

20 min effort up Stocking Lane/Featherbeds on Saturday morning (-1c) after warm up on Cruagh.

I haven't done any long rides or tested shorter efforts in 2015 yet so other results are just off the Power curve in Strava (w/Powertap).
Alpe d'Huez TT last summer was 275w for 57mins. Orwell Kilmashogue Hill Climb was 343w for 10m 30s. Reached 4.4w/kg a couple of years when I dropped a lot of weight for the Haute Route, very helpful for that event. I plan to try a bit of racing this year so will be looking to work on shorter efforts.

Since having a power metre I'm in even more awe of the elite's abilities:

Wiggins speaking before 2012 Olympic TT: “Without boring you too much with the technicalities I averaged 456 watts for 55 minutes at the Worlds last year against Tony and still finished 1min 20sec behind."

Worlds TT last year: “I didn’t have any time checks until 5km to go,” Wiggins said of his tactics. “I thought it was very important to pace my own ride. I had a game plan in my head as to what kind of power I was going for.
"I didn’t want to change after 12km depending on whether I was up or down. I knew I could get the better of Tony if I could sustain 470-480watts in the final. Then they told me I had 10sec on Tony and I s--- myself.”

dermabrasion

I echo what doozerie said. FTP is great to benchmark how training is going. In a race with adrenaline pumping, and rage in your eyes, I think numbers can put out can be surprising.
Personally, I realize I have 2 matches in my matchbook; that is 2 huge efforts I can put out. If I have to burn a match to keep up going over a drag, or chase a break, thats my race. If I can't recover, thats it. But it is still a shed load of fun.