Young farmer top up

Irishmale

Do you need your own herd number to apply for NR entitlements or can you do it with a joint one?

Sami23

Sami23 wrote: »

Wonder will the Dept. have direct contact with Revenue to check P60's and cross check them or will they just go with what people scan in to them on the application ?

Anyone ?

epfff

smokey-fitz wrote: »

The same was highlighted to me, and at 33% on entitlement market value not yearly value with only 1870 tax free allowence it could be an expensive one.

Correct me if this I'm wrong
but at this very time entitlements for 2015_2019 do not exist yet
You cannot trade them so they have no value
So if new farmers are liable for tax are old farmers not liable too?

ABlur

Sami23 wrote: »

Anyone ?

Of course they have, anytime free money is being given out it has to be verified. Our overlords in Europe insist on it.

Bleating Lamb

epfff wrote: »

Correct me if this I'm wrong
but at this very time entitlements for 2015_2019 do not exist yet
You cannot trade them so they have no value
So if new farmers are liable for tax are old farmers not liable too?

I would think you are right on that one,....there will be some agreement on it to cover all Farmers,young,old or 'forgotten' I would think,otherwise they would not have bothered coming up with the 25% top up idea in first place if a tax issue would put farmers off availing of it.

larrymiller

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

I would think you are right on that one,....there will be some agreement on it to cover all Farmers,young,old or 'forgotten' I would think,otherwise they would not have bothered coming up with the 25% top up idea in first place if a tax issue would put farmers off availing of it.

Yeah I agree. It would be one step forward two steps back.

simx

rangler1 wrote: »

Your entitlements are averaged over all the land you declare, if your entitlements workout at less than the average for the country, it'll be increased a bit by 2020, if it's more than the average, like mine, it'll be cut:mad:

I was afraid that was going to be the case alright, I'm going to be cut nicely so

AP2014

simx wrote: »

I was afraid that was going to be the case alright, I'm going to be cut nicely so

A few of us will be, but if you were at forgotten farmer talk last night you might be greatful for what you have.

farawaygrass

Kovu wrote: »

Afraid we're the opposite with value of entitlements, above average here

Ya same here, so we defin won't get anything out of national reserve? It's only to bring up lower value entitlements is it?

Kovu

farawaygrass wrote: »

Ya same here, so we defin won't get anything out of national reserve? It's only to bring up lower value entitlements is it?

I'll get back to you on that. Am up terrorising dubs today.

smokey-fitz

epfff wrote: »

Correct me if this I'm wrong
but at this very time entitlements for 2015_2019 do not exist yet
You cannot trade them so they have no value
So if new farmers are liable for tax are old farmers not liable too?

I asked the same question and was told that they will open for trade next year so they will have a value, anywhere from 2 to 4 times their yearly payment. They can also be traded at the moment if land is bought or sold. And its not the young farmer that will be hit with the tax, it will be the existing farmer that is effectively gifting you with entitlements that will be hit with the tax.

Im only letting you guys know what I was told by advisor so dont be shooting me down hopefully its not the case because im in the same boat. Worth finding out for yourselves anyway.

farawaygrass

Kovu wrote: »

I'll get back to you on that. Am up terrorising dubs today.

Give them plenty of stick!

Zr105

smokey-fitz wrote: »

I asked the same question and was told that they will open for trade next year so they will have a value, anywhere from 2 to 4 times their yearly payment. They can also be traded at the moment if land is bought or sold. And its not the young farmer that will be hit with the tax, it will be the existing farmer that is effectively gifting you with entitlements that will be hit with the tax.

Im only letting you guys know what I was told by advisor so dont be shooting me down hopefully its not the case because im in the same boat. Worth finding out for yourselves anyway.

I would have thought this to be the case aswell anyways...

If they currently had no value then there couldn't really be any difference in the value of entitlements so then no one would be loosing value on entitlements, for those above the national average or gaining value, for those lower than national average

Tibulus

Am a little concerned about entering the young farmer scheme.

If I am added to fathers herd number then I am en effect half owner of all livestock and entitlements.

This may leave me liable for gift tax.

Another concern is that I will have to file separate tax returns and pay the accountant twice!

epfff

Tibulus wrote: »

Am a little concerned about entering the young farmer scheme.

If I am added to fathers herd number then I am en effect half owner of all livestock and entitlements.

This may leave me liable for gift tax.

Another concern is that I will have to file separate tax returns and pay the accountant twice!

Herd number nothing to do with ownership of stock
So your saying if you transfer cattle into someones herd for winter b&b they have to pay gift tax
Good lad
Herd number is simply who is responsible for care of stock

Injuryprone

epfff wrote: »

Herd number nothing to do with ownership of stock
So your saying if you transfer cattle into someones herd for winter b&b they have to pay gift tax
Good lad
Herd number is simply who is responsible for care of stock

Ehhh, you might want to climb back down from your perch there lad! Herd nos. have 2 types of people associated with them, a 'Herdowner' and a 'Herdkeeper'.
When Tubulus is talking about getting his name added to the herd number, he is talking about getting added as a 'Herdowner'. There can only ever be 1 'Herdkeeper'.
If he is being declared as a Herdowner, then I'd say it'd have to have tax implications, but they might be avoidable through agricultural relief. I don't know what mechanism there is to register the equity in a herd i.e. If there are 3 Herdowners associated with a herd number, do they each own 33% or can it be divided 98/1/1? I'd be fully exploring your options with your dads accountant / agri advisor before I give up on it.

Tibulus

epfff wrote: »

Herd number nothing to do with ownership of stock
So your saying if you transfer cattle into someones herd for winter b&b they have to pay gift tax
Good lad
Herd number is simply who is responsible for care of stock

What of the value of the entitlements?

epfff

Injuryprone wrote: »

Ehhh, you might want to climb back down from your perch there lad! Herd nos. have 2 types of people associated with them, a 'Herdowner' and a 'Herdkeeper'.
When Tubulus is talking about getting his name added to the herd number, he is talking about getting added as a 'Herdowner'. There can only ever be 1 'Herdkeeper'.
If he is being declared as a Herdowner, then I'd say it'd have to have tax implications, but they might be avoidable through agricultural relief. I don't know what mechanism there is to register the equity in a herd i.e. If there are 3 Herdowners associated with a herd number, do they each own 33% or can it be divided 98/1/1? I'd be fully exploring your options with your dads accountant / agri advisor before I give up on it.

You really know your stuff
You should get a job with teagasc
You seem to have the expertise that they like
Very detailed explanation in simple language given by minister of ag on Dail record regarding this matter (I used this last week on a slightly more important issue)
I would recommend you read this before you knock my information

Tibulus

epfff wrote: »

You really know your stuff
You should get a job with teagasc
You seem to have the expertise that they like

Whats with the personal attacks?

smokey-fitz

Zr105 wrote: »

I would have thought this to be the case aswell anyways...

If they currently had no value then there couldn't really be any difference in the value of entitlements so then no one would be loosing value on entitlements, for those above the national average or gaining value, for those lower than national average

Personally id think that aswell, but they would need to be valued for tax reasons if changing/adding names because they are an asset. its the sort of situation that can be looked at in 100 different ways. So its a tough one to call. Id be getting advice on it by my accountant so im sure im not shooting myself in the foot. Cant see a point in a scheme that pays maybe 15k over 5 years on average entitlements and CA tax takes back something between 7 to 8k from original herd owner, plus solicitors and account fees on top. Not much of a incentive, so hopefully the tax is exempt from the scheme.

rangler1

smokey-fitz wrote: »

Personally id think that aswell, but they would need to be valued for tax reasons if changing/adding names because they are an asset. its the sort of situation that can be looked at in 100 different ways. So its a tough one to call. Id be getting advice on it by my accountant so im sure im not shooting myself in the foot. Cant see a point in a scheme that pays maybe 15k over 5 years on average entitlements and CA tax takes back something between 7 to 8k from original herd owner, plus solicitors and account fees on top. Not much of a incentive, so hopefully the tax is exempt from the scheme.

Aren't you allowed receive €225000 tax free from your parents

Whatsdastory

If you are current employement, sign up for this and the herd number is in your name (jointly), and you lose your job, are you entitled to draw the dole!!!?

ihatewinter

Yeah you will be able to draw the Farm Assist

smokey-fitz

rangler1 wrote: »

Aren't you allowed receive €225000 tax free from your parents

Yea I am, but as I said im not the one being taxed. My parents would be liable for the tax. As I said before I was made aware of all I said in privious posts by advisor, so its something that has to be looked into.

Irishmale

Is there not a retirement exemption from CGT where property was owned for 10yrs and seller is over 55? Or is that done away with now?

Farrell

ihatewinter wrote: »

Yeah you will be able to draw the Farm Assist

Just on that, I'm a part time farmer so if I should lose my paye job then I can't get dole (even though I've full stamps) just farm assist?
Suppose it's allot less!

rangler1

Farrell wrote: »

Just on that, I'm a part time farmer so if I should lose my paye job then I can't get dole (even though I've full stamps) just farm assist?
Suppose it's allot less!

There's a lot of young farmers out there deciding not to take over farms for that very reason

p dogg

rangler1 wrote: »

There's a lot of young farmers out there deciding not to take over farms for that very reason

Currently working with an advisor on the 25% top up, was supposed to meet with him last Friday until I received a text postponing the appointment due to possible tax implications popping up, I am after joining my fathers farm account and the next step was to be joint on the herd number, advisor is waiting on clarification on the tax implications issue before we proceed any further, is there anyone on here knowledgeable on the subject, a few doubts in my mind have been cast over this 25% top up, eg. Will it involve a hefty tax bill on my or my fathers behalf, leaving it not worthwhile going for it stall, I like many am working fulltime and just get to farm evenings and weekends, any info much appreciated

rangler1

p dogg wrote: »

Currently working with an advisor on the 25% top up, was supposed to meet with him last Friday until I received a text postponing the appointment due to possible tax implications popping up, I am after joining my fathers farm account and the next step was to be joint on the herd number, advisor is waiting on clarification on the tax implications issue before we proceed any further, is there anyone on here knowledgeable on the subject, a few doubts in my mind have been cast over this 25% top up, eg. Will it involve a hefty tax bill on my or my fathers behalf, leaving it not worthwhile going for it stall, I like many am working fulltime and just get to farm evenings and weekends, any info much appreciated

Ah, the sting in the tail. once your getting SFP, You'll have to declare farm income for tax

Nettleman

rangler1 wrote: »

Ah, the sting in the tail. once your getting SFP, You'll have to declare farm income for tax

Larkill may be better placed, but potential tax question may arise because theres a requirement that the young farmer must prove they are the key decision maker. it was decided this would be demonstrated by name on bank account and herd number (I.e. herd ownership). If you purely do these things for "tick the box purposes", then there might be a risk you are accepting the bank balance and % of the livestock as gifts as at that date. Therein-raising a potential tax question, id say. If bank account was empty, that may help reduce any exposure, but at best your eating into your 225k lifetime allowance. I hope im wrong but.... :eek:

smokey-fitz

Nettleman wrote: »

Larkill may be better placed, but potential tax question may arise because theres a requirement that the young farmer must prove they are the key decision maker. it was decided this would be demonstrated by name on bank account and herd number (I.e. herd ownership). If you purely do these things for "tick the box purposes", then there might be a risk you are accepting the bank balance and % of the livestock as gifts as at that date. Therein-raising a potential tax question, id say. If bank account was empty, that may help reduce any exposure, but at best your eating into your 225k lifetime allowance. I hope im wrong but.... :eek:

I agree, there are too many possible implications with the scheme going down this route. If you are transfering farm and everything else this year then your ok, but if going joint on bank and herd no, you then have assets and that may affect future transfere or inheiritance also.

primary 2

would anyone be able to give me a bit of advice?my situation is i have my green cert done two years now,i have my own stock that are in my fathers herd number but i have my own cheque book and pay all my bills seperate to him,i rent 40 acres but it is in his name as he drew reps on it years ago as i had no green cert but i have been paying for it out of my account since the reps scheme finished,if i had this 40 acres in my name what would i be entitled to draw down annually? it is also in the disadvantage area,and i work off farm with a slary less than 26000 thanks

Cavanjack

p dogg wrote: »

Currently working with an advisor on the 25% top up, was supposed to meet with him last Friday until I received a text postponing the appointment due to possible tax implications popping up, I am after joining my fathers farm account and the next step was to be joint on the herd number, advisor is waiting on clarification on the tax implications issue before we proceed any further, is there anyone on here knowledgeable on the subject, a few doubts in my mind have been cast over this 25% top up, eg. Will it involve a hefty tax bill on my or my fathers behalf, leaving it not worthwhile going for it stall, I like many am working fulltime and just get to farm evenings and weekends, any info much appreciated

How you get on after with your advisor regarding the top up? I'm in the process of getting my name on the fathers herd number.
My accountant is still unable to tell me what the tax implications will be and suggested asking the department (haven't got an hour to spare during the day), My advisor is telling me to speak to my accountant and also tells me that there is nothing finalised yet regarding funding.

larrymiller

Cavanjack wrote: »

How you get on after with your advisor regarding the top up? I'm in the process of getting my name on the fathers herd number.
My accountant is still unable to tell me what the tax implications will be and suggested asking the department (haven't got an hour to spare during the day), My advisor is telling me to speak to my accountant and also tells me that there is nothing finalised yet regarding funding.

Did you get anything back yet about the herd number? I got 2 big forms to send back. Haven't looked at it yet as adviser coming this week

Cavanjack

larrymiller wrote: »

Did you get anything back yet about the herd number? I got 2 big forms to send back. Haven't looked at it yet as adviser coming this week

Not yet. I am stalling on the whole thing because of uncertainty regarding entitlements as when I have my name on the herd number I will own half of them. That is according to last weeks journal anyway. I don't think pop's is too keen on that!!
Also my name must be on the farm bank account. Have to get that sorted too.

Toplink

Cavanjack wrote: »

Not yet. I am stalling on the whole thing because of uncertainty regarding entitlements as when I have my name on the herd number I will own half of them. That is according to last weeks journal anyway. I don't think pop's is too keen on that!!
Also my name must be on the farm bank account. Have to get that sorted too.

Just off the phone with my Dads accountant. He hasn't a breeze what the tax implications for me are under this arrangement.

He did mention that my Dad should avoid any tax bill as he is over 55 and there is exempt. No idea how true this is?


Anyway, he reffered me to Teagasc

I assume if the farm registers a profit that I would have to pay the higher level of tax on my 50% portion of the profit?

Cavanjack

Toplink wrote: »

Just off the phone with my Dads accountant. He hasn't a breeze what the tax implications for me are under this arrangement.

He did mention that my Dad should avoid any tax bill as he is over 55 and there is exempt. No idea how true this is?


Anyway, he reffered me to Teagasc

I assume if the farm registers a profit that I would have to pay the higher level of tax on my 50% portion of the profit?

Who knows? Sure what farm makes a profit

blockie

hi all,have really low entitlements here but over 40,however my wife is under 40 would putting herd number in our joint name qualify us for a top up entitlement currentl at 65 euro

mayota

blockie wrote: »

hi all,have really low entitlements here but over 40,however my wife is under 40 would putting herd number in our joint name qualify us for a top up entitlement currentl at 65 euro

Yes but she would have to have greencert or undertake to commence it before sept '16.

blockie

thanks for reply my entitlements at moment are 73 euro what would they go up to with the top up and also how long would that course take to do

mayota

blockie wrote: »

thanks for reply my entitlements at moment are 73 euro what would they go up to with the top up and also how long would that course take to do

Not certain what they'll go up to. You'll get a top up of €60 per entitilment up to a max of 50.

patrickn

blockie wrote: »

thanks for reply my entitlements at moment are 73 euro what would they go up to with the top up and also how long would that course take to do

If you qualify as a Young Farmer ie . under 40, set up within last 5 years, less than 40K gross income and Green Cert you can avail of National Reserve and Top up which they are estimating will be about 310 euro per entitlement up to 50 HA.

Toplink

The latest update I have from Teagasc is that by entering a "farm partnership" you can avoid the gifting of the entitlements tax implications. This appears to be the recommended route from what I can see. This would allow you to avail of the top ups as a young farmer.

However I get the feeling that Teagasc are only half a page ahead on this and that information is being drip fed to them from above.

This appears to be the template form that's needed
http://www.teagasc.ie/advisory/farm-partnerships/Registered_Farm_Partnership_Application_Form_Feb_2015.pdf

brainbox

I am getting things organised to apply for, the national reserve / young farmers scheme.
Firstly I am applying to be added to a joint herd number I have the er1.1 filled out where do I send that?
Other items I need am I right I saying.
-Application form
-Birth cert
- Proof from bank to say name on joint bank account
-educational details proof
-a p60/21 anyone know how to get this online? Am registered for PAYE anytime
there is also a form I see that has to be signed by a solicitor do I need to fill this out ? If so does this have to be submitted by the 31st March?
All feedback welcome especially to those who have applied want to have everything kind of in order when submitting the application. Thanks :-)
and also am I classed as a new entrant I have no previous applications/dealings with the Deptartment

larrymiller

brainbox wrote: »

I am getting things organised to apply for, the national reserve / young farmers scheme.
Firstly I am applying to be added to a joint herd number I have the er1.1 filled out where do I send that?
Other items I need am I right I saying.
-Application form
-Birth cert
- Proof from bank to say name on joint bank account
-educational details proof
-a p60/21 anyone know how to get this online? Am registered for PAYE anytime
there is also a form I see that has to be signed by a solicitor do I need to fill this out ? If so does this have to be submitted by the 31st March?
All feedback welcome especially to those who have applied want to have everything kind of in order when submitting the application. Thanks :-)
and also am I classed as a new entrant I have no previous applications/dealings with the Deptartment

Have you transferred the entitlements?

brainbox

larrymiller wrote: »

Have you transferred the entitlements?

How do you do that?
Sure wont the entitlements be in my name when I get my name on the herd number?

Count Mondego

brainbox wrote: »

How do you do that?
Sure wont the entitlements be in my name when I get my name on the herd number?

No, transfer of entitlements is a separate process.

larrymiller

brainbox wrote: »

How do you do that?
Sure wont the entitlements be in my name when I get my name on the herd number?

They stay in who Evers name they were in and you need to transfer them into both your names

Cavanjack

larrymiller wrote: »

They stay in who Evers name they were in and you need to transfer them into both your names

Can't they just be left in the original owners name?

larrymiller

Cavanjack wrote: »

Can't they just be left in the original owners name?

Nope. I'm 99.9 % sure